3000 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > thank you for the context of this meditator practicing in > Germany. I do not know which tradition of vipassana meditation > he is following. I know Dhiravamsa has led a retreat in > Germany yearly now for over 35 years (at Haus der Stille, near > Hamburg). Dear Jina, I hope he will join us so you could correspond with him as well here! I think there are several traditions in Germany also, and from what I heard they also have some very good translations of the Tipitaka, some dating from quite a while back. Khun Sujin's book, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma', has also been translated into German a few years ago by a German lady with Nina Van Gorkom's help, copies are still available at the foundation. Sukin or Jonothan's friend could get them for anyone interested, by the way. Amara 3001 From: amara chay Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I consider your correspondent's statement: > > >I would greatly apreciate any information you send to me. > > to be along the lines of a directive. There are 4 general semantic classes > of sentences: statements, questions, directives, & exclamations. According > to 'A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language': "questions are > primarily used to seek information on a specific point" and "directives are > primarily used to instruct someone to do something". A request is a > pragmatic category of a directive. The syntactic class of sentences called > an imperative is typically used to express a directive such as: "Please send > me any information." It is possible however to express a directive using a > declarative such as: "I'd love a cup of tea." which is suggesting that > someone bring a cup of tea to the speaker -- a suggestion is another > pragmatic category of the directive. > > I read the full message (with names deleted) that you posted in response to > Jinavamsa which provides a better idea of the kind of information the writer > is seeking. I still don't see any questions, directly or indirectly, in the > message. But it is probable that the person writing the message has some > specific questions in mind and that the information you send him may help > him to answer some of these questions. Making distinctions in linguistic > usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas. The following is an > example of a directive that performs indirectly as a question: "Tell me what > you know about this group." which could also be put directly as a > question:"What do you know about this group?" > > I'm just giving you my perspective on the matter and I can understand that > you might read a dhamma question in between the lines. Dear Jim, Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the other party as the Buddha would. Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? Looking forward to learning more, Amara 3002 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Jim, Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali dict.!) BTW, is this comm. translated into English? Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been published yet? I think it was Robert who said he wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised when I mentioned I'd heard this. Thanks, Sarah -- Jim Anderson wrote: > Amara wrote: > > The Dighanikaya commentary (DA ii 567) gives a > simple example for each of > the four types of questions and answers. > > 1. eka.msavyaakara.niiya -- categorically eg. yes/no > > "Is the eye impermanent? (cakkhu.m aniccan ti)" is > to be answered > categorically with: "Yes, it is impermanent. (aama > aniccan ti)" > > 2. vibhajjavyaakara.niiya -- analytically > > "Is only the eye impermanent? (anicca.m naama > cakkhun ti)" is to be answered > analytically with: "Not only the eye (but) also the > ear is impermanent and > the nose is impermanent.(na cakkhumeva sotampi > anicca.m ghaanampi > anicccan ti)" [I'm uncertain about how to translate > 'naama' in the question] > > 3. pa.tipucchavyaakara.niiya -- with a > counter-question > > "As the eye, so the ear; as the ear, so the eye. > (yathaa cakkhu.m tathaa > sotam; yathaa sota.m tathaa cakkhun ti)" is to be > counterquestioned: "In > what sense do you ask? (ken'a.t.thena pucchaasii > ti)" When "I ask in the > sense of seeing (dassan'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is > spoken it is to be > answered "No (na hii ti)."; when "I ask in the sense > of impermanent > (anicc'a.t.thena pucchaamii ti)" is spoken, it is to > be answered "Yes (aamaa > ti)". > > 4. .thapaniiyavyaakara.niiya -- to be set aside > (not to be answered) > > "Are the soul and the body the same? (ta.m jiiva.m > ta.m sariiran ti)" is to > be set aside with: "This is unanswered by the > Blessed One (avyaakatam eta.m > Bhagavataa ti). [For more examples of this type of > question see the > Avyaakatasa.myutta] > 3003 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. I think it would be a good idea to put certain text files in the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they are easier to read and then perhaps you could select any files you like and put them under headings. I'm sure any that you've found helpful, others would too. I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you to cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. With regard to your extra note about changing the message and including a link, I think it's better to polish up the basement and get it working first & then we could consider that. In the meantime, you could just put out the occasional message on the list with a link when there are some new sections to view there... Just play around with it when you have time....no pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr suggestions. Sarah p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us know off-list. Also I've just worked out how to do the sutta links and to save files as you suggested (I think)..thanks for all these tips. > I've been looking at the 'files' and 'database' > options for moderators at e-groups, and thinking > about > the possibilities. I don't think indexing is the > answer in this environment. Of course we can search > now by keyword or author in the archives, but I > don't > think that's exactly what we're after. > > I've taken the liberty of adding a text file to the > 'files' and a link to it to the 'links' of > dhammastudygroup. It's a little rough but I think > you'll see the potential. > > I'd rather use HTML files (for the formatting), but > I > haven't found that option here and this would (I > think) require space on another server. I think > free > space is easy enough to come by, but haven't really > investigated this yet. > > mike > 3004 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:10pm Subject: kusala vipaka just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert kirkpatrick here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on business from kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to hook up for some very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... bruce 3005 From: bruce Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 8:11pm Subject: asubha i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") photographs in jpeg format; there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue crews at accident sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in bkk, who passed them on to his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java during the riots preceding suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese Bhikkhu... the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, and most of them are extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to contemplate the body's foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this too could happen to me tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group who would like to use them.... i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there are many list members who do not want to see them....if you would like me to send them to you in a zip file, please email me directly back-channel...i only ask that, if you request them, you simply state that you won't post them publicly....there is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of course, but for all the wrong reasons (imho...) bruce 3006 From: Date: Fri Jan 26, 2001 5:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" Dear Maggie, we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , doctors , politicians,mediamen..etc) We are inspired by things done by others. We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. After some time we may see that what we learn from others is not exactly correct or there are some shortcomings . But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the relevance, neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, reliability , practicability etc according to his/her ability. rgds. 3007 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, You wrote: >Dear Jim, > >Your quote of the 4 types of Q & A- in the Dighanikaya >comm is very clear and exactly what I was looking for. >It answers the qu. I had about the first type too. >Thanks. (They need to add this ref in our big new Pali >dict.!) Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh which is supposed to be coming out anytime now if not already. >BTW, is this comm. translated into English? The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the Sumangalavilaasinii which as far as I know has not been translated into English in its entirety. However you will find portions translated with individual suttas such as the Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali Text Society's web site and found the following under the current projects page: 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be found in this part of the Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) of which I have already given the essential points of it and there isn't too much more to add. I just checked to see where else a similar discussion is found and I came across one, to my surprise, with many more details and examples in the Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully translated by I.B. Horner in Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. I, pp. 201-3 with footnotes. Definitely recommended! There is also a short discussion, similar to the one in DA, in the Petakopadesa, p.83 for which there is a translation by ~Naa.namoli. >Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been >published yet? I think it was Robert who said he >wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm >translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised >when I mentioned I'd heard this. The SN translated by B. Bodhi is now available for purchase. If you are a PTS member you can order the volumes with a discount from the Society. I'm doubtful the volumes come with the complete translation of the commentary -- perhaps there are excerpts. Best wishes, Jim A. 3008 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Jina, --- Jinavamsa wrote: > ...we can see the > results of > this illusion-making if not the illusion-making > itself. In > other words, perhaps the units out of which the > sense of a self > are too small to be perceived individually (I leave > aside the > somewhat speculative nature of such a statement); I can't offer any proof of this, but I do take it to be sound Dhamma and also self-evident to some extent. Just the same (if you don't mind), I'll leave the question of its 'speculativeness' to someone else. > still, the > resultant sense of a self can be perceived. Most > easily, perhaps, > in inter-relationship with other people, as when > someone > recognizes us as this or that, or criticizes us, or > commends us, > and so on. It is perhaps here that the arising of > vedanā > (experiences insofar as pleasant, unpleasant, or > neither especially > pleasant or unpleasant) can be used to bring our > attention to > the relevant sense of self being addressed, as a > mirror held > close to the mouth on an ice-cold day can show us > our breath. This is an excellent point and one I needed to hear. To back up a little, the mental factor of, say, pleasant feeling (sukhavedanaa or somanassa) does obviously arise enough times in succession to be clearly perceptible very routinely (though there may be many imperceptibly brief arisings of other factors in the course of this series). So this must be true of other mental factors, too. This has been quite a sticking-point for me--thanks for pointing it out. The next thing that's needed (as you pointed out) is enough understanding to distinguish, for example (and especially), the relation between this pleasant feeling and self-view. I think this kind of understanding is conditioned by, more than anything else, having heard the Dhamma. > And did you meet Dhiravamsa up in San Juan Island? No, at the bookstore in Seattle where I worked in the '80's. He came in with a couple of rather starry-eyed disciples who were asking for his books. Our conversation of probably less than a minute was quite a turning point for me (I'd been a kind of half-baked zen student for ten years or so). Really great to see you on this list, Jina. I always found your voice on d-l to be one of the most exemplary of right speech. Thanks again for your help. mike 3009 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Dear Maggie, Hello and welcome--so nice to meet you. I know it's a little difficult to get started but I do hope you'll read what makes sense to you and ask questions, as you've already done. I can't add anything to Robert's and Bruce's fine replies, except to try an answer to your question: I think the purpose of studying Dhamma is to end suffering by understanding what causes its beginning and its ending, and cultivating the factors that lead to its ending. Rememeber, if it's Dhamma, it's lovely in the beginning, lovely in the middle and lovely in the end. Hope to hear more from you! mike 3010 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 4:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- amara chay wrote: > ...Even our bhavanga > would have sati since > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > although the degrees > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > and would not > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > pass on all the > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > life. Most of the > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > satipatthana, one would > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > hearing or studying > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > awareness to arise > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > fleetingly perceptible, and > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > moments of sati to > arise. Thanks for this clarification. I've been reading about bhavanga recently, and you've touched on an answer I've been looking for: So it's the bhavangas which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Thanks... mike 3011 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 1:21am Subject: what can citta know? Hi group, I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. Let me start with couple questions. I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic field. So is the world is only what we can experience? 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. Num 3012 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Dear Num, Hello and welcome! Great questions on your first post! I'll look forward to answers from some of our smarter members... mike --- wrote: > Hi group, > > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My > name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or > female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We > cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only > through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In > a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross > appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience > through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 > (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in > English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) > are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, > let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa > and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? > > Alright, hope I can understand Dhamma better. > > Num > > > 3013 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Amara, >Dear Jim, > >Thank you again for the very clear analysis. As you say, 'Making >distinctions in linguistic usage can be very difficult and confusing >in some areas.' which must be a matter of determining the >questioner's intention (cetana cetasika), the purpose of the >vaji-kamma or other communicative actions. As usual cetana must be >the chief to produce kamma, as we all know. To my mind it is still >more difficult to answer a question/request with the fourth kind of >answer (by not answering) not knowing the exact intention of the >other party as the Buddha would. It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts seems to support this by stating: "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no question, and the second a wh-question: Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " --CGEL p.823 I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to questions of the first type. P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth reading. Best wishes, Jim A. 3014 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 10:14am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas )\(combined. (he may in the future) I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. Robert 3015 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: Vipassana meditation > > ...Even our bhavanga > > would have sati since > > all humans are born because of kusala vipaka, > > although the degrees > > vary, but as the bhavanga are only life continuum > > and would not > > accumulate anything further since its duty is to > > pass on all the > > accumulations from the preceding citta and maintain > > life. Most of the > > time, without knowing about sati, panna and > > satipatthana, one would > > never have deeper or stronger sati arising, but > > hearing or studying > > the dhamma could be conditions for more perceptible > > awareness to arise > > and accumulate and grow stronger to become > > fleetingly perceptible, and > > become paccaya ('upasissaya paccaya') for the next > > moments of sati to > > arise. > > So it's the bhavangas > which carry on the 'formations' of the sankharakhanda > that account for sankharupadana? Nina doesn't (I > don't think) mention this function in AIDL. Dear Mike, All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to arise, besides being other types of paccaya for them as well. They all carry all latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika that have not yet been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Amara 3016 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > It is interesting that you mention the speech act (vacii-kamma) and > intention (cetanaa). That's something to keep in mind when listening to or > reading utterances. I was reading the passage in the Milindapa~nha (145f) > today where King Milinda puts a question to Nagasena that relates to the > fourth kind of answer. The King can think of only two reasons for not > answering a question: either the person does not know the answer (ajaanana) > or the answer is being kept a secret (guyhakara.na). I think Nagasena could > be pointing out a third reason -- the one why the Buddha did not answer > certain questions. It would seem that the King's two reasons should be > included in the fourth type but I'm not absolutely sure about this. The > Buddha gave his own reasons in the Ananda Sutta (SN XLIV.10). > > >Another point I would like to ask is how the multiple choice question > >would fit in with the Buddhist classification, in your opinion? > > I've been thinking that the multiple choice question, which I take to be the > same as the alternative question, fits in with the first type > (eka.msavyaakara.niiya). This is my opinion and the English usage experts > seems to support this by stating: > > "There are two types of alternative questions: the first resembles a yes-no > question, and the second a wh-question: > > Would you like chocolate, vanilla, or strawberry (ice cream)? > Which ice cream would you like? Chocolate, vanilla or strawberry? " > --CGEL p.823 > > I would include the second one in with the first Buddhist type also. Instead > of yes-no, there could be true-false or correct/right-wrong responses to > questions of the first type. > > P.S. There is an interesting application of the same 4 types of questions in > the Kathaavatthu Sutta (AN III.67) that I think is relevant and worth > reading. Dear Jim, Thanks and anumodana for your help, will print out your letter and ask someone to find the recommended passages today, Amara 3017 From: Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I am a new member too. Let me introduce myself. My name is Nantawat, my > nickname is Num. I am ok with both names. > > Let me start with couple questions. > > Num Dear Num, Hi and welcome! I look forward to the answer of your questions also, will look in again later this evening and talk to you again, Hope you find this group interesting, as I do, Amara 3018 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick <> > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been > continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and > suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced > recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were > already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another > sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to > these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so > mentioned it. > > Robert > Hope so too and it's good if people like yourself encourage him! thanks. I must say I also really appreciate Maj Nik translation w/ notes and am looking f/w to Samyutta and anymore of these too as they are a big improvement, I find.... He must be very busy with many different demands. 3019 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Bruce, Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even moments of awareness. But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the pleasant sights in the restaurant. This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as they are and so put aside wrong views about them. It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in life. These are simply result and do not give future results. The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be understood. Robert -- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i met robert > kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to osaka on > business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was able to > hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller each day.... > > > bruce > > > 3020 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 7:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst > Dear Sarah, > > > Also, anyone, has the Sam.Nik w/ comm by B.Bodhi been > > published yet? I think it was Robert who said he > > wasn't going to do any more sutta & comm > > translations...Is that correct? Nina VG was surprised > > when I mentioned I'd heard this. > > > > What I meant was that B. Bodhi had not been continuing his most > excellent translations of the commentaries and suttas > )\(combined. (he may in the future) > I am disapointed because the books he produced recently-the > samyutta and Majhima Nikaya translations were already complete > in English. It was not so urgent to have yet another sutta > translation. What is needed is the commentaries to these. > I want to encourage him to do some of these and so mentioned it. > > Robert Dear Robert, I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. from Teng Kee 3021 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 8:37pm Subject: India date set Dear friends, For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. 13-26 2001. As of now there are two itineraries to choose from, one going to Ajanta and Ellora and the other to the Taj and Sankassa (sp?) as soon as the itineraries are set I will post them on the newsletter section in . and give the link here as before. Amara 3022 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 9:58pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even he don't know those languages.There are too many things he can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. Dear Teng Kee, Welcome to the list! I did not realize you were involved with the translation of the texts. The person whom I asked to help you is also on this list, Sukinder Narula, whom you might contact yourself from his e-mail address accessible on the messages page of this list. I am sorry to say we did not get the source material yet, will ask again tomorrow, or perhaps Sukinder has found some already, I forgot to ask him. He will be very happy to help you in any way he can in your kusala endeavours. Please contact us through our private e-mails, Anumodana, Amara 3023 From: bruce Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:17pm Subject: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi robert i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking about many of the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and trains out of the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from arising (until one has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual process of understanding, and until that process is completed there will continue to arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their opposites, all of varying degrees.... i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the process: by reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by trying to cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back to the idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the continuous barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my attention completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense doors....in other words: formal practice..... for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting offers space and time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they really are -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the more i conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at the 6 doors, the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in which clarity and understanding arise on their own.... remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly necessary to navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without them?....but during a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no longer *need* concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" practice: the relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course they will) but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which don't specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the chances of paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through the effort to cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing the difference between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place demands-to-conceptualize upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently more conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in papanca, and thus begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? or am i way off ?? i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something to the effect that) of course panna could arise while one is at the movies....and i agree completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are made specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, and if you're sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad guy is gonna get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not noticing, and not trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the eye-door....i know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such awareness continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first place? (oh buster keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or any of the other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning into my next two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie this all up after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice ... bruce At 02:42 2001/01/27 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3024 From: Amara Date: Sat Jan 27, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: what can citta know? > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? Dear Num, What do you mean by 'aware of'? If you mean awareness as in satipatthana, experiencing realities as they really are, each dvara has its own arammana and the eye could only see visible object, the ear could only hear sound, etc. The body sense has temperature, degrees of hardness/softness, and motion or tension as possible arammana, and the mind dvara can study the characteristics of all the realities through all dvara, as well as the characteristics of all the citta and cetasitka that arise through all the dvara, including the mind dvara. The citta that sees is different than the citta that hears or tastes. The cetasika that is lobha is different from the cetasika that is dosa or machariya, (stinginess). These are all realities that sati can study, and be aware of the characteristics of. For example, gravity or magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can experience? If you mean the broader (non dhamma) sense of awareness as in thinking of something, aware of the existence of gravity and magnetic fields, these are only thoughts that can only appear through the mind dvara. The world is not only what we can experience as you say, it is in our thoughts, our beliefs, our memory. What we can really experience are the arammana of the individual dvara, which together combine to make us think there is a 'world'. In reality there are only namadhamma and rupadhamma, or the citta, cetasika, and rupa, which we take for the world. Can we experience anything at all other than through the six dvara? > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, this > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience bhavarupa > through eye-ear-nose-tounge-body door, but only through the mind door. When > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept level, I think > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor cues. If I > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, how can > the minddoor be aware of bhavarupa. The mind door can understand and recognize bhavarupa intellectually since of all the rupa only those that can be the arammana of the six dvara could be experienced, the rest could only be understood intellectually. As it is, visible objects, audible objects, smells, tastes, temperature, hardness/softness, motion/tension and thoughts are enough to entangle us in the self and the world around us, completely hiding the fact that there is no self there at all, just a succession of extremely rapid realities arising and falling away, under no one's control. To worry about all the other subtle rupa that cannot be experienced seems superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are is right now as they appear to be aware of their true characteristics, seeing is there now as we read this visible object on the screen, so different from sound or taste. > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest kalapa of > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno (color), > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with Mahaputaupa > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound (sattarupa), > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? Yes, they are inseparable. Oja, however does not simply mean nutrient as in food, intends the rupa that makes other rupa arise. To understand more about the rupa, read the 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part I, the section of the rupa paramattha, advanced section, from which this is an excerpt: There are 28 kinds of rupa-paramattha and the meaning is not the same as the conventional rupa: a table being a rupa, a chair another, a book still another, for example. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is only one the citta experiences through the eye; it sees only one rupa: the object which appears to the eyes only. The other 27 rupa cannot be seen by citta but can be experienced elsewhere according to the type of the specific rupa, for example, sound can be experienced through the ears. Even though citta and cetasika cannot be seen with the eyes, like the 27 invisible rupa, but citta and cetasika are not rupa because they are paramattha-dhamma that experience arammana, while rupa is a paramattha-dhamma that does not experience arammana. Rupa-paramattha is a sankhara-dhamma (conditioned reality) that arises because of conditions. One rupa depends on another rupa to arise, therefore there can never be just one rupa arising alone, but a small group of rupa that arise together interdependently, impossible to separate or divide, called in Pali kalapa. Rupa is the infinitesimally tiny reality that arises and falls away rapidly at all times. A kalapa of rupa that arises lasts the amount of time 17 citta take to arise and fall away consecutively, which is very rapidly. The seeing and the hearing citta that appear as though they were simultaneous actually arise and fall away more than 17 moments of citta apart, therefore, the rupa that arises simultaneously with the seeing consciousness falls away before the citta that hears can arise. Each rupa is infinitesimal but when a group of rupa that arises and falls away together is divided minutely until it can no longer be separated. In the infinitesimal, indivisible group of rupa, there are at least 8 rupa together. These are call the eight avinibhoga-rupa: The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension The four mahabhuta-rupa arise interdependently and, therefore, are indivisible. They are the conditions or the basis on which another four rupa [upadaya-rupa] arise together with the mahabhuta-rupa and in the same kalapa: 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise (End quote) Nowadays there are so many children's toys, and even many adult and seriously applied voice operated or voice recognition or mechanisms that react to sound that the choice of examples is staggering, as Tom, also on this list, who works with voice recognition techniques will be able to tell you! Amara 3025 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 0:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, > Sorry I took the > liberty earlier, Not at all! Your posts are always well worth taking into account. In this case, I'm sure Jina's response was of much greater value to me than my post was to anyone! Always a pleasure, Ma'am... mike 3026 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] List Housekeeping Dear Sarah, I just got around to reading this response after sending off a request for a response. Please excuse the redundancy. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > O.K.- all good ideas and I followed your link. The one in 'links' going to Jon's post? > I > think > it would be a good idea to put certain text files in > the files or in the basement as I think of it. Maybe > we can leave you to polish it up a bit so that they > are easier to read and then perhaps you could select > any files you like and put them under headings. This seems to me to be a pretty personal matter. I think I'd rather defer to one of you to assign importance or unique merit to various posts--but I'll think about it... > I'm > sure any that you've found helpful, others would > too. > > I think Alex has also spent time in the archives and > maybe Bruce. Perhaps you could liaise with them in > your selections (maybe off-list) if you don't want > full responsibility. We'd be delighted to give you a > free hand in any of this. I'd also be happy for you > to > cut & paste & edit as you felt necessary. > > With regard to your extra note about changing the > message Not sure what you meant by this...? > and including a link, I think it's better to > polish up the basement and get it working first & > then > we could consider that. I just noticed that the new Yahoo page calls 'Links' 'Bookmarks' instead. There are already links there to several (all?) the files, including the new Jon text file; do you mean you don't think we should post links herefor now? > In the meantime, you could > just put out the occasional message on the list with > a > link when there are some new sections to view > there... I'll do that with the new file, if you and Jon have reviewed & OK'd it. > Just play around with it when you have time....no > pressure or obligations, but many thanks for yr > suggestions. Will do... > Sarah > > p.s. If we need to do anything as moderators, let us > know off-list. I'll do that too--Generally, I think it would be best if you wouldn't mind reviewing anything I'm going to post... 3027 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Subarashii! mike --- bruce wrote: > just a little personal note to let you all know i > met robert kirkpatrick > here in japan for lunch this afternoon....he came to > osaka on business from > kumamoto; i live in nara and work in osaka, so was > able to hook up for some > very fortuitous results....the world gets smaller > each day.... > > bruce > 3028 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Dear Bruce, Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead bodies in every stage of decomposition was a commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation would be the same for us as it would have been for contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? Opinions, please... mike --- bruce wrote: > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > photographs in jpeg format; > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > crews at accident > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > bkk, who passed them on to > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > during the riots preceding > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > Bhikkhu... > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > and most of them are > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > contemplate the body's > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > too could happen to me > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > who would like to use > them.... > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > are many list members > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > to send them to you in > a zip file, please email me directly > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > request them, you simply state that you won't post > them publicly....there > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > course, but for all the > wrong reasons (imho...) > > bruce > 3029 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation Dear Khun Amara, --- wrote: > All citta are anantara paccaya for the next citta to > arise, besides > being other types of paccaya for them as well. They > all carry all > latent tendencies and accumulations of all cetasika > that have not yet > been eradicated, nothing is ever lost. Thank you, Ma'am... mike 3030 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] kusala vipaka Dear Robert, A very nice piece of everyday abhidhamma--thanks! mike 3031 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: India date set > For those interested, a temporary date has been set for India, Dec. > 13-26 2001. Dear friends, I'm so sorry I posted the wrong month for India, it is still for October, 13-26, I really regret giving some of you false expectations! Amara 3032 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:16am Subject: Re: kusala vipaka hello Robert, I like your application of concepts of Buddhist psychology to actual experience. What a clarifying link (for me). jinavamsa ========= --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Thank you very much for meeting me in Osaka.- > > I was just reflecting on our lunch yesterday. Moments of kusala > vipaka (pleasant result ofpast kamma)- the excellent tastes, > kind words, discussion on Dhamma. And moments of mahakusala > citta when there was wise reflection about Dhamma and even > moments of awareness. > But too, many moments of akusala vipaka - the weather outside > was cold, moments when tired because of the plane trip. Moments > of seeing unpleasant visible object. Then, at times the > discussion was not about the development of kusala - this is > natural. And at those times there was akusala arising. When we > were eating also lobha for the tastes. And refined lobha for the > pleasant sights in the restaurant. > This is the way I find life always to be. Different moments, > conditioned by varied conditions. Without the Dhamma it would be > impossible to understand. The Buddha classified all the > countless different dhammas so that we too could see them as > they are and so put aside wrong views about them. > It is not important whether we have many pleasant experiences in > life. These are simply result and do not give future results. > The javanna cittas following after the resultant is when kusala > or akusala kamma is done. If there is no understanding at those > moments it is all taken for self. And from self view the > diversity of views arise. Akusala must arise - but it can be > understood. > Robert > 3033 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:25am Subject: Re: asubha hello Mike, just thinking about meditation on death, it is true that in the Buddha's time (and still in India, I hear) it was possible to go to the area where recently dead bodies were placed and remained while they decomposed. That is hardly possible in much of the West. When leading some retreats in England, an elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. jinavamsa --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > 3034 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 7:28am Subject: minor correction [Re: asubha minor correction for clarity: Begin the passage with: "When I was leading .... " sorry about that. jinavamsa ========== > When leading some retreats in England, an > elderly woman (in her 80s) came and was concerned with her > own (ultimate) death. I recommended that she have someone take > a chair for her across the road, where there was a church and > its little graveyard, and to sit there meditating on death. > It seemed to be quite helpful for her, she later reported. > jinavamsa 3035 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Amara, First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your kindness answering my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I am appreciate your response and input. I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now and everywhere I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is a whole or a sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like gravity exists without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. <> I agree that we cannot. <> What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for sure. > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. I have to go. Appreciate. Num 3036 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are there some > realities that > > citta cannot be aware of? The Buddha teaches that there are 4 types of ultimate realities: rupa, citta, cetasika, and nibbhana. Citta can cognize all ultimate realities, and also can cognize pannatti. Knowing the ultimate realities as they truly are, dukkha, anicca, and anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any more. Some ultimate realities are so refined that they don't become fully known to all except those with the sharpest panna. The Buddha did not explain all that we understand through science today. He did not explain how atoms and subatomic particles work. He didn't explain how the universe begins and how it ends. He didn't explain how gravity and electricity can be explained with the different realities. We don't need to know those things to attain nibbhana. As Khun Amara has mentioned, when you infer (that gravity exists, for example, by way of observing two objects behaving toward one another), you are having pannatti as the aramana. Your inferral may in fact be reflexive of some properties of realities, or it may be totally inaccurate. For example, Aristotle inferred that bird feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a piece of metal because it is lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is reflexive of realities, sometimes it is not. Although it is interesting and sometimes fun to explain what we understand about science through Buddha's teachings. Since Buddha didn't teach this himself (and as he didn't infer: he simply knew, what he said would be ALWAYS reflexive of the properties of realities), we would be just speculating with no useful purpose (any path not leading to Nibbhana is not useful). For example, isn't it neat to know no matter how the scientists dissect rupa, the smallest unit always seem to have the properties of the 4 maha-bhuta rupa (light waves, quarks, etc.) Another example. I am comparing the Thai tipitaka with the English translations because sometimes Thai usage of sentence structure and wordings confuse me more than English. I discovered that the English translation explicitly mentioned the universe during the "contracting" period and the "expanding" period. Doesn't that increase your saddha toward Buddha's omniscience? > > > 2nd question, is about rupa, bhavarupa (male or female). Again, > this > > question is from my conventional knowledge. We cannot experience > bhavarupa > > through eye-ear-nose-tongue-body door, but only through the mind > door. When > > I see a man or a woman, it's only a ruparamana. In a concept > level, > I think > > I see a boy or a girl due to different gross appearance and minor > cues. If I > > am correct that bhavarupa can only experience through the mind door, > how can > > the mind door be aware of bhavarupa. Besides the explanation that Khun Amara has already provided that may help with the understanding, my only addition here is that some of us may never fully know what the true characteristics of bhavarupa is, as it may not appear to the person without the appropriate level of panna. > > Last one for this mail. Avinipapocarupa 8 (inseparable smallest > kalapa of > > rupa), I don't know how to exactly spell it in English-Pali. Panno > (color), > > Kantho (smell), Raso (taste) and Ocha (?nutrient) are always with > Mahaputaupa > > 4. From my level of understanding, I cannot see, let say sound > (sattarupa), > > so when there is sound there are always mahaputarupa and also > > color-smell-taste and nutrient in that sound?? As Khun Amara has mentioned and you already said, the Buddha teaches that Avinipocarupa is the smallest kalapa. Again, if you think about and infer how sounds are transmitted (scientifically), you may be able to map this teaching to the scientific principles. Sounds doesn't transmit in space too well. Why? It does transmit in air and water. Why? Anumoddhana to your efforts to understand realities. kom 3037 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:56am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Mike, Opinion you will get! I think for those of us not accustomed to the sight and without the proper accumulations, dosa would certainly arise when seeing such a picture. However, once you get used to it, and with the proper condition, it would be a very good reminder of the "penalties" of the 5 senses: that they are dukkha and anicca, that they bring phassa, vedana, tanha, upadana, ,birth, old age, death, sadness, lamentation, etc. They also remind us what we call as our rupa as it truly is: asubha. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: m. nease > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha > > > Dear Bruce, > > Interesting offer. I've often thought about this type > of contemplation, often recommended by the Buddha, and > wondered about it. In his day, the sight of dead > bodies in every stage of decomposition was a > commonplace sight, due to the use of charnel grounds > for disposal of many if not most bodies. Many of us > in the west have never seen a dead body, or if we have > seen a few they were gussied up for funerals. I > wonder if the effect of this kind of contemplation > would be the same for us as it would have been for > contemplatives far more accustomed to this sight? > > Opinions, please... > > mike > --- bruce wrote: > > i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") > > photographs in jpeg format; > > there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue > > crews at accident > > sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in > > bkk, who passed them on to > > his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java > > during the riots preceding > > suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese > > Bhikkhu... > > > > the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, > > and most of them are > > extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to > > contemplate the body's > > foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this > > too could happen to me > > tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group > > who would like to use > > them.... > > > > i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there > > are many list members > > who do not want to see them....if you would like me > > to send them to you in > > a zip file, please email me directly > > back-channel...i only ask that, if you > > request them, you simply state that you won't post > > them publicly....there > > is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of > > course, but for all the > > wrong reasons (imho...) > > > > bruce > > > 3038 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:20am Subject: Re: what can citta know? > Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had :) I > appreciate your response and input. Dear Num, I went back and counted five paragraphs that I wrote, the others were just quotations from your original letter and a book in the website, but thanks any way for the distinction, I hope the message was of some some use. Your question below remind me of another message I wrote here some time ago, message no. 1773 to Alex, in the archives, from which I quote: We are born with the six senses, and no matter what we experience, think about, learn and remember come from these and no other ways at all. Can you think of any other way we can learn or experience from the most obvious objects to the most metaphysical of theories? Even your tree, Alex, how do you experience it? Through the eyes when you look at it or when your eyes are open and it comes into contact with the eye sense, etc. Through the ears when you hear related sounds such as the leaves dancing on the branches swaying, through the other senses respectively, and most importantly through the mind door with all of the memories through all the senses combined: you touched its seed and planted it and saw it grow, it is your tree, related to your possessions, to your 'self'. In that sense it is as illusory as thinking anything really belongs to you, they only belong to you when you think about it, when it appears to you for that fleeting instant through all the senses. And in that sense it belongs to all who experience it in any way. So in fact for the shortest time that it is the aramana, of any senses including and especially the mind, it belongs to that citta. And there are always new citta arising, not always with the tree as aramana, in fact all the bhavanga citta still has some object from our past life as aramana, it just never appears to any of our six senses now. Have you ever cried or laughed or feel angry in empathy with characters in a movie or TV? Don't they feel like 'real' people to you then though? In an extreme case, my mother, who is an avid TV watcher these days, told me that one of the better character actresses in a 'soap' recounted that she had gone shopping and one of the stall keepers refused to sell her things because they can't disassociate her with the very bad girl she played on screen! These extreme cases aside, there is not much difference in the sight we see on screen and the sight we see in other daily life experiences: we associate and connotate so much with what is merely visible objects, sounds, smells, taste, touch and thoughts and memories! They are always changing, and we are always being anywhere from elated to deflated by them at all times, instead of learning from them: they are different realities, sight and color, light, shapes, whatever, and sounds, hardness/softness, or tension or motion as you type or move the mouse, and myriad other experiences appearing to be studied at all times. While sight is appearing, or sound, or whatever reality, where is the tree then? or the self? When does the self appear if you do not think about it? All that you know or learn about can only appear through the six dvara, but with right understanding one would begin to know them as such: paramatthadhamma that could be experienced through the respective dvara and the all knowing mano-dvara. This knowledge, as it grows more habitual and constant, accumulate the understanding of higher levels until finally the knowledge of selflessness is so great that it becomes strong enough to eliminate uncertainty, and progress to eliminate akusala level by level until in the end there is no more self or any kind of impurity regarding the self, and the knowledge of anatta is perfect and complete. (End another long quote!) A tree or gravity or any rupa including electricity and space (nothingness) can only be 'known' through the mind dvara, unlike sight as you read this now, or the sounds and touch of 'your computer' through the other dvara, all with real, distinct characteristics to be studied and experienced to add to the knowledge of things as they really are. Amara > But something like gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I thought about it. > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their cetasika for > sure. > > < superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions to come. 3039 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Teng Kee, I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, of course). --- teng kee ong wrote: > > Dear Robert, > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > from Teng Kee Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well explained in the English, I think. Robert 3040 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: Foremost analyst hello Teng Kee and Robert and all, yes, more on sukkhavipassaka or suddhavipassanāyānika, please. jinavamsa --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Teng Kee, > I very much appreciate you joining this forum. I looked over > some of your posts on d-l when I first joined that group and was > much impressed by how informative they were. Looking forward to > your help and comments on many topics (whenever you have time, > of course). > --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > > Dear Robert, > > I think you have too much to ask.I must mention that those > > sutta like Brahmajala sutta,mahanidana sutta with complete > > com.and sub com is done by The late Ven Nyannaponika,Bodhi > > just edited it ,this is also the case for Majjhiama nikaya > > tran. which was Nyanamoli's work. > > Yes, I knew the majhihamma trans. was originally Nanamolis' but > I thought B. Bodhi did the Brahmajala and Mahanidana himself. > > > > We can only find thai transltaion of complete tipitaka of > > commentary (without Patimokkha com)at this moment in book > > format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc only kept most of them in > > leaves. > > But the hardest thing about doing translation for PTS etc is > > adding translator notes/comment and edition of Pali text been > > used.This is not so for thai and also for Sri lanka and > > Myanmar.i want to translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the > > biggest problem is those notes that I must add. > > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not a gook > > work in my humble opinion. > > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or even Japanese > > translations were not been used at all.Someone can help even > > he don't know those languages.There are too many things he > > can't offer any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. > > from Teng Kee > > Highly pleased to hear you are working on this translation. Any > help I can ever be (not for help with difficult points - but in > more mundane ways)please let me know. Any corrections you ever > want to point out on any other translations (eg. Bodhi's) would > be valuable. Sukkhavipassaka is one area that is not well > explained in the English, I think. > Robert > 3041 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 4:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Are you referring to Margaret Cone's New > Pali-English Dictionary? Is it now > printed and available? It will only be Vol I. A-Kh > which is supposed to be > coming out anytime now if not already. > No, I'm using PTS Pali-Eng edited by Rhys Davids & Stede. By new, I meant new to us (a freebie from PTS when they sent it by mistake & said no need to return!). I couldn't possibly justify another! > The commentary to the Dighanikaya is called the > Sumangalavilaasinii which > as far as I know has not been translated into > English in its entirety. > However you will find portions translated with > individual suttas such as the > Brahmajaalasutta by B. Bodhi. I checked the Pali > Text Society's web site and > found the following under the current projects page: > > 7. Dr Y.-G. An: translation of the > Suma"ngalavilaasinii commentary on the > Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta. > > The discussion on the 4 types of questions will be > found in this part of the > Sumangalavilaasinii. It is short (about half a page) > of which I have already > given the essential points of it and there isn't too > much more to add. I > just checked to see where else a similar discussion > is found and I came > across one, to my surprise, with many more details > and examples in the > Milindapa~nha (pp. 144-5) and this is fully > translated by I.B. Horner in > Milinda's Questions: The Fist of a "Teacher", Vol. > I, pp. 201-3 with > footnotes. Definitely recommended! Thanks for the info and refs. My copy of the above is translated by Rhys Davids (maybe older), but yr page ref. still worked! I liked the examples of the questions that can be put aside and then the reason for putting these questions aside: '...And why ought such a question to be put on one side? Because there is no reason or object for answering it. That is why it should be put aside. For the Blessed Buddhas lift not up their voice without a reason and without an object.....' Thanks, Sarah 3042 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Thanks for telling us about your get together w/Robert. I have fond memories of Nara too (where I think you said you lived)...the park, geishas, cherry blossom and lots of rain! Hopefully you'll make it to Hong Kong before too long and we'll also have a chance to meet you. I was most impressed by your very articulate post below and your careful consideration and questioning of what you hear and read. I'm not sure if any comments I make will add to the discussion, but let's see. --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been > thinking about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the > subways and trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta > from arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a > gradual process of > understanding, and until that process is completed > there will continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as > their opposites, all > of varying degrees.... So obviously you found that on the Japanese crowded subways and trains there was plenty of useful reflection and possibly moments of sati without any special planning in advance... > > i also thought about how it might be possible to > nurture the process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with > the wise; by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i > keep coming back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to > disengage from the continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and > to give my attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six > sense doors....in other > words: formal practice..... I think we all agree that the development of understanding and awareness are of prime importance. I think we also agree that they can only know and be aware of realities at the present moment (i.e. not of concepts and not at any other time). I think we also agree that these realities are conditioned in many complex ways and are anatta (not self)...O.K? Can we also agree that although it seems that WE can make choices and decisions in life that this is an illusion? So we may think that certain places,times and situations are more favourable for our practice but actually these are just ideas. Right now we are sitting in front of the computer. There is seeing, visible object and the other realities that can be known. If we have an idea of another place and time, it's just thinking (about concepts) and the thinking can be known for a moment as the experiencing of these (without needing to think about how fast it is!). If we find that by conditions we're standing on the subway or sitting in the cinema or retreat centre, it's the same. We're there by conditions already. There's no need to think about whether it's the best place to be or whether somewhere else would be more conducive to the development of panna. Having heard about realities and having confidence that awareness can arise at any time can be conditions for it to arise at that time. (I'm talking here about the development of sati in satipatthana in particular). > > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal > sitting offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing > things as they really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! > -- but the more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever > arises at the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of > non-sitting time in which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... It seems that it's necessary to put in some 'sustained effort' and Mike may have more comments on this thread too! Indeed, even conventionally, we talk about making an effort. But who can make an effort? As we've discussed before, viriya cetasika can be kusala or akusala (wholesome or unwholesome). All kinds of viriya are also anatta. When we have the idea of making a sustained effort, isn't there some idea of self lurking there? When we 'work at noticing' isn't there also an idea of someone noticing?* > > remember we had talked about how concepts were > utterly necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live > without them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) > practice, we no longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of > "formal" practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I wonder if we really have any idea how much conceptualizing there really is. We are not just talking about thinking in words, but immediately after seeing a visible object or experiencing a reality through the body sense, there are concepts. This doesn't need to be with wrong view at all. Most the time it's just with moha (ignorance). So even during a 'formal practice' concepts are used to navigate even though it may not seem that way. It's impossible to live or exist without concepts and the Buddha certainly never advocated this. > > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, > (of course they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into > situations which don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are > increasing the chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and > through the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of > knowing the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the > arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations > inherently more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost > in papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual > level? > Bruce, I know exactly what you're saying and it all sounds very logical and very clearly put into words. However, I think this is thinking rather than understanding realities. It goes along with the idea that if only we could slow down realities or cut out those annoying papanca, life would be a lot simpler. Again it sounds like there is a wish to control or select realities to be known. Even if there is not any wrong understanding of a self who can do this, isn't there at least some strong lobha to have more kusala, more sati and fewer concepts instead of accepting and knowing what has been conditioned already? > or am i way off ?? I think you're very much on the right track. Why do I say this? Because you're seriously questioning and considering the difference between concepts and realities and what the practice really is. This is very unusual. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said > (something to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at > the movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, > they are made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined > conceptal snares, and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or > not the bad guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not > not noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing > at the eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on > cultivating such awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the > first place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to > music, or any of the > other million distractions.... Excellent points and questions. Why go there in the first place or follow the other distractions indeed? One answer might be because it's conditioned like that already. You may decide never to go to another movie and then your friend recommends a great new one and off you go. What are you going to do? Cry because of the wasted opportunity to develop awareness or just enjoy yourself and leave it to conditions whether sati arises? oh dear, this is > already turning into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try > and tie this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal > practice ... Now watch out there, Bruce, you could find yourself thinking about Buster Keaton in your formal practice too....!! I'm not sure I've added anything more to Robert's comments and Jonothan's & Amara's earlier ones about spinning out concepts at the computer, but it's been a pleasure for me to try! Thanks, Sarah * There is a really helpful chapter on viriya cetasika (effort) in Nina VG's Cetasikas, which I highly recommend to everyone. It's very readable and useful. I was going to quote from it, but this is too long already, I fear! Actually I think I quoted from it in a post quite a long while back, but I haven't got a record. 3043 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 5:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, Wow, you really considered what I said. Thank you. See below: --- bruce wrote: > hi robert > > i too am glad we could meet, and i also have been thinking > about many of > the things you mentioned, mostly as i rode the subways and > trains out of > the city: how it's impossible to keep akusula citta from > arising (until one > has eradicated all defilements), how it's all such a gradual > process of > understanding, and until that process is completed there will > continue to > arise moments of lobha, of moha and dosa, as well as their > opposites, all > of varying degrees.... Yes, that is just what I meant/said. > > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the > process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; > by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding... In the 'Majjhima nikaya' I (no. 43, Mahavedallasutta) Kotthita asked Sariputta: "'But what is intuitive wisdom for, your reverence?' 'Your reverence, intuitive wisdom is for super-knowledge, for apprehending, for getting rid of.' 'But how many conditions are there, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence?' 'There are two conditions, your reverence, for bringing right understanding into existence: the utterance of another (person) and wise attention. Your reverence, there are the two conditions for bringing wise attention into existence.'" The other person is the Buddha or his disciples, by listening carefully to the right person, by considering and applying what we have heard are the conditions for right understanding built up. Kotthita then asked sariputta "If right understanding is forwarded, by how many factors, your reverence, does there come to be the fruit of freedom..." Sariputta listed 5 factors: moral habit, hearing, discussion, calm, and vision. The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. Note the importance of discussion and right teaching. The eight jhanas are not needed for dry-insight workers (sukkha-vipassaka). .and i keep coming > back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the > continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my > attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense > doors....in other > words: formal practice..... > for me, the daily, temporary withdrawal of formal sitting > offers space and > time for me to put sustained effort into seeing things as they > really are > -- whether or not i am successful is another story! -- but the > more i > conscientiously sit and work at noticing whatever arises at > the 6 doors, > the more i feel that there are moments of non-sitting time in > which clarity > and understanding arise on their own.... > > remember we had talked about how concepts were utterly > necessary to > navigate through the day, how we couldn't live without > them?....but during > a formal sitting (standing/walking/lyingdown) practice, we no > longer *need* > concepts to navigate, do we? isn't this the crux of "formal" > practice: the > relenquishing of demands to conceptualize? I think you put this very well Bruce. I have heard khun sujin tell new people, who say they are too busy to study, that when they wake in the middle of the night they should take the opportunity to study or consider Dhamma. It is not that anyone would say don't go to a quiet place. They can be a supporting condition for awareness and insight. However, the essential basis is right understanding and we need to check and see if that is firm intellectually. You told me that recently you notice insights coming while you are on the train. In Japan this is no secluded place. And I found that while in Osaka this weekend the crowds of people actually conditioned some awareness of seeing: it is so pleasant to have such moments in these situations. I think you do have a good point about the demands of conceptualising. If we were so continually busy with an extremely mentally demanding job- like a overworked mathmatician perhaps- there might be less opportunities,if one is beginning, for reflection on Dhamma, and possibly direct awareness too. But also I know that awareness can come in at times that seem not conducive at all: for instance, when under severe stress. It has happened like this for me. Remember Shin gave the example of how seeing a decapitated head and other body parts last week in Bangkok was a condition for her to consider and see the value of Dhamma. In the commentary to the satipatthana sutta one monk became enlightened while a tiger was eating him from the feet up. > this isn't to say that concepts won't arise anyway, (of course > they will) > but it seems that if we put ourselves into situations which > don't > specifically demand conceptualization, we are increasing the > chances of > paramatthadhamma and not pannati being arammana, and through > the effort to > cultivate wise attention, we increase the chances of knowing > the difference > between realities and concepts, the chances for the arising of > satipatthana. aren't situations that do not place > demands-to-conceptualize > upon one worth seeking, and aren't such situations inherently > more > conducive to attenuating one's tendency to get lost in > papanca, and thus > begin to understand dhammas at a non-conceptual level? > > or am i way off ?? I think at this level one has to be very careful and honest to oneself. Is there really more awareness of paramattha dhamma or is it simply more calm and pleasant feeling. Remember that sanna and citta experience and know paramattha dhamma - but there is not necessarily panna arising at this time. If panna is absent the dhammas are not truly known as they are. More perilous is that one might think they can have sati and panna at will by concentrating: if so that is atta-sanna. > > i remember someone mentioning that khun sujin said (something > to the effect > that) of course panna could arise while one is at the > movies....and i agree > completely....but from my experiences with movies, they are > made > specifically to draw us into pre-determined conceptal snares, > and if you're > sitting there caught up worrying about whether or not the bad > guy is gonna > get away with his evil deed, chances are you are not not > noticing, and not > trying to notice that there is only color appearing at the > eye-door....i > know that one of course *could* be intent on cultivating such > awareness > continuously, but then why go to the movies in the first > place? (oh buster > keaton forgive me!) ....or read books, or listen to music, or > any of the > other million distractions....oh dear, this is already turning > into my next > two (also half-formulated) topics....maybe i'll try and tie > this all up > after i get a bit of feedback....movies and formal practice > ... I asked much the same things to Nina 10 years ago, about when I first met Khun Sujin. I think it is all a matter of the middle way. If we are in the movies it is already conditioned. I went to a movie on Saturday night. I found it hard to get lost in the story because reflections about Dhamma and some awareness kept coming up (of course Stallone being the lead actor helped too). These are very useful comments and questions that many on the list will be interested in. They pertain to the subtleties of right and wrong practice. Post more whenever you have time. Robert 3044 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Glad to see you joined up. Good that you are investigating the teachings in the Abhidhamma. I think you are already considering in wise ways, and Amara and Kom gave good replies. Brief additions: 1. magnetic fields. If this is based on the actual behaviour of dhammas then it is a concept that is the shadow of the dhammas. It still cannot help us to understand paramattha dhammas. 2. the characteristics of male and female. We may not actually be able to distinuguish these directly; however it is useful to consider about them. We think of ourself as "man" and "woman". We think our ways of behaviour are US. But all of this is simply conditioned moments. It is just like a puppet carved out of wood and painted to look male or female, beautiful or not. Nothing of any essence is really there. Robert --- wrote: > Hi Amara, > > First of all, thanks for spending your time and for your > kindness answering > my questions. Your mail is the longest e-mail I have ever had > :) I am > appreciate your response and input. > > I like Buddhism b/c it's provable at this moment, here and now > and everywhere > I go. I can see that Pannatti is not real such as a table is > a whole or a > sum of very momentary paramathadhamma. But something like > gravity exists > without being thought of. The term "gravity" is just a name > of something > exists in nature, hard to express, but from my understanding > it's not just > only a thought. I can experience outside ayatana as well as > inside ayatana. > That is really real and very provable. Let say like idea of > heaven or > hell, I have never seen both. I cannot prove it. The story > sounds possible > but can just believe in it b/c I have confident in Buddhism. > So I don't > think heaven is just a thought. It's probably real. So I > still somewhat > reluctant to say that gravity is just a thought. Yeap, I > thought about it. > > < dvara?>> > I agree that we cannot. > > < intellectually>> > What do you mean intellectually? Do you mean just think about > it? I usually > ask myself what I really see or hear? When I read Abhidhamma, > in a thinking > level, I agree that I see only visible object. But the > concept feeds in with > form of male or female. Or when I see someone is sad, how > can I know that > he/she is sad. I see only a facial expression, and then my > memory, my > thought and my concept feed in, so I recognize that with this > facial > expression, this person is sad or happy. I cannot feel their > cetasika for > sure. > > < experienced seems > superfluous to me. We can know them intellectually, > theoretically, but what > we need to know in order for right understanding of things as > they really are > is right now>> > > I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may > not unnecessary > but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, > a wonderer, > careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, > reality and > dhamma, I mean samma dhitti You remind me of Maluggayaputta > sutta, > Mallugayaputta asked the Buddha about 8 wrong views, the > Buddha did not give > an answer to each of his question, he said both yes and no to > the same > question, which left Maluggaya with more puzzle. The Buddha > though mentioned > about the Fire and later about a man who was struck by an > arrow. > > > The way Abhidhamma explains categorizes rupa is very > fascinating. I think I > will need your guidance again in the future. More questions > to come. > > I have to go. > > Appreciate. > > Num > 3045 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 8:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] what can citta know? Num Welcome to the list, and thanks for your interesting questions. I would like to try to give a short answer to the first one. > I asked this first question to Robert before. Are > there some realities that > citta cannot be aware of? For example, gravity or > magnetic field. From my > conventional knowledge, those two are real. I > cannot have direct experience > with both gravity and magnetic field but they can be > proved by indirect means > such as I see a leaf falling or electricity is a by > product of a magnetic > field. So is the world is only what we can > experience? It is true that citta cannot directly experience gravity or a magnetic field. Nor for that matter can it directly experience any of the other ‘realities’ that make up the world as we know it. These would include all the other phenomena of physics, the sun and moon, weather, time, space, direction, places, people (including ourselves) and so on. As you know, these are called conventional realities. It is only the absolute realities (paramattha dhamma) that can be the object of awareness and understanding. The conventional realities, which are known to us through the mind door as concepts, cannot be the object of understanding which eradicates ignorance about the true characteristic of absolute realities. This is the ignorance that the Buddha identified as being the cause of rebirth. So one answer to your question could be that the world as we see it is a world of conventional realities, but this is not the world as it really is. I don’t know if this addresses your question. Jon 3046 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 9:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Gayan, A good explanation. Thank you. Robert --- wrote: > Maggie ->"What is the purpose of studying Dhamma?" > > Dear Maggie, > > we always learn things from others.( peers , philosophers , > doctors , > politicians,mediamen..etc) > We are inspired by things done by others. > We set goals for ourselves according to that learning. > > After some time we may see that what we learn from others is > not exactly correct > or there are some shortcomings . > > But if one studies what Buddha taught he/she will realise the > relevance, > neetness, uniqueness,trustworthyness,ever-greenness, > reliability , > practicability etc according to his/her ability. > > > rgds. > 3047 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:06pm Subject: Q&A7 Dear Alex and friends, We have put the post about real/unreal things (no.1773 in the archives) up as Q&A7, in the Q&A section, in the website for easy reference. Alex, if you would like to edit anything please contact me off list, Amara 3048 From: Amara Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:16pm Subject: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Jim and friends, A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from and since when? Thanks in advance, Amara 3049 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:21pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, > -----Original Message----- The commentary says that moral habit is the catupaisuddhi-sila. Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. That calm is the eight jhanas and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, anatta, nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. What is catupaisuddhi-sila? What is nibheda? What is patinissaga? kom 3050 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 11:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Kom, My spelling was a little off as usual. The CATUPARISUDDHI sila is the four precepts of purity. I don't have the pali of the visuddhimagga here in japan. But in the english text in the section on sila there are listed 4 types of sila (which may or may not be the catuparisuddhi sila): virtue of patimokkha restraint (i.e the monks rules), restraint of faculties, virtue of livelihood, and virtue dependent on requisites. NIBBHEDHA is dispassion Patinissagga is relinquishment. Robert --= Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > > -----Original Message----- > The commentary says that moral habit is the > catupaisuddhi-sila. > Hearing is listening to appropriate teaching. > That wrong practice is discarded by discussion. > That calm is the eight jhanas > and that vision is seven contemplations: anicca, dukkha, > anatta, > nibheda, viraga, nirodha, patinissaga. > > What is catupaisuddhi-sila? > What is nibheda? > What is patinissaga? > > kom > 3051 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Amara, >Dear Jim and friends, > >A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my >incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or >the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the >Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from >and since when? It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana sutras. Best wishes, Jim A. 3052 From: Date: Sun Jan 28, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Where in the Tipitaka? Hi khun Amara, As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm That's all I know about it. Num 3053 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Kom, Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. <> Do you think pannatti also has characters of anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to manodvara. <> So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may or may not know? I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions to help my understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as examples in my previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, "blood pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name definitely pannatti, I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on numerous factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under any personal control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a reflection of some properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? When a doctor measures BP or BS, he uses an indirect mean. I think he measures sth which I don't know how to call best. My argument is : Are those all just illusion. I simply ask what is the thing I think I know. <> So you said that there is some reality, even though it's there we may not able to experience due to level of panna? Or there are some realities that citta experienced but we just not able to be aware of (this time I mean sati as in satipatthana)? Hope my question is not too tangential. Bear with me. Appreciate Num 3054 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Hope you don't mind me replying to part of the letter to kom. --- wrote: > Hi Kom, > > Thanks for your comment. Let me play an advocate. > > < anicca, and > anatta, one can reach the end of suffering without knowing any > more.>> > > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an object to > manodvara. Pannatti(concept) is an object of manodvara. But it is not an object in the same way that paramattha dhammas are. Pannatti is not real at all thus it cannot have the charactersitics of realities - that they rise and fall away. > > So do you mean that reality has some properties which we may > or may not know? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some more questions > to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and mag. field as > examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth medical. Let say, > "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or the name > definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and interdependent on > numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself and not under > any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) or it a > reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? Some concepts are not even conventionally true - for example, flying purple elephant. Others refer to conventional truths- people call me Robert. Robert is only a concept but this does not mean there is nothing here. There are namas and rupas arising and passing away in a stream that has no beginning and that will not end unless parinibbana is attained. Not one nama or rupa in this continuos stream is exactly the same as another but the preceeding ones condition the ones arising now. Thus "Robert" a minute ago looks and sounds much like "Robert" now. As for blood pressure- this is a concept. However, it is based on the actual rupas (hardness, heat, vibration...) that are arising and passing away. The bloodpressure meter detects certain coarse qualities of these elements. It really amazes me how much science has discovered about the qualities of rupa .The findings of quantum physics are in-line to a appreciable degree with the nature of dhammas. Even so they cannot truly see the nature of rise and fall. And so physicists still think t is the same quark or electron or whatever that they see changing so incredibly rapidly. Robert 3055 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:38am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hello Amara at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this site: http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut ra.htm I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear Jim and friends, > > A while back someone mentioned the 'Diamond Sutra' to me and in my > incompetence I have not been able to find it in the Suttantapitaka or > the Tipitaka. Could you tell me if there is such a sutta in the > Tipitaka proper and if so where it is? If not where did it come from > and since when? > > Thanks in advance, > > Amara 3056 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > It is a Mahayana sutra found in Sanskrit under the full name of the > Vajracchedikaa-praj~naaparamitaa-suutra which is not in the Pali Tipitaka. I > have E.Conze's translation of it in his 'Buddhist Wisdom Books' and from > what I can gather it is a conversation between the Venerable Subhuti and the > Buddha. Subhuti asks the Buddha some questions about the bodhisattva's > vehicle. I checked for the name 'Subhuuti' in the Dictionary of Pali Proper > Names and there are two Theras listed under that name and a Subhuuti Sutta > (AN XI.15). I know very little about the historical origins of Mahayana > sutras. Dear Jim, No wonder we couldn't find it. I will look up the Subhuuti Sutta (AN XI.15). but I doubt it will be exactly the same. It's interesting but I must say that I find the Tipitaka more to my accumulated taste! Thank you for your help, Amara 3058 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > As Jim said. It's in Mahayanna sutta. I have never read the whole sutta by > myself but it was mentioned couple times in the book, a Journey to the > West(Hsi-yu Chi)(A story of a monk from Tung dynasty went to India to obtain > true interpretation of scripture with his 4 animal disciples). The > following is a website that you can get a Diamond Sutra in English : > > http://www2.kenyon.edu/depts/religion/Fac/Adler/Reln260/links260.htm Dear Khun Num, Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Thanks again, Amara 3059 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Dear Robert, welcome back! Missed you in the list [thats akuala of course] :o) rgds. vimutti saaraa sabbe dhammaa.. 3060 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert, In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion >Patinissagga is relinquishment. >Robert Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling 'nibbhedha' which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which ~Naa.namoli & PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In the seven contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct spelling. Besides ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other translations given in the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, aversion, indifference, disenchantment. Jim A. 3061 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 0:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Jim, Thanks. I thought it looked funny. The translation I am using (Narada - guide to conditional relations p224, made the same mistake). I want to add that nibbidda is generally considered an advanced stage of insight. Although any moment where there is genuine insight comes with alobha and so is building some dispassion. It is of course nothing to do with aversion(dosa) to sense objects; which some of the synonyms translators use suggest. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Robert, > > In a response to Kom's questions you wrote: > > >NIBBHEDHA is dispassion > >Patinissagga is relinquishment. > >Robert > > Welcome back! I thought I'd point out an error in the spelling > 'nibbhedha' > which can easily get confused with the word 'nibbedha' which > ~Naa.namoli & > PED translates as 'penetration' as in nibbedha-bhaagiya. In > the seven > contemplations (anupassanaa-s) 'nibbidaa' is the correct > spelling. Besides > ~Naa.namoli's translation as 'dispassion', some other > translations given in > the PED are: weariness, disgust with worldly life, tedium, > aversion, > indifference, disenchantment. > > Jim A. > 3062 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 1:48pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > at the following link you will find my very favourite translation of > the Diamond Sutra, it is by Thich Naht Hanh. If you can find his book > of the translation it has a great commentary not available on this > site: > > http://www.plumvillage.org/DharmaDoors/Sutras/chantingbook/Diamond_Sut > ra.htm Welcome to the list, Abrennan! Thank you very much for the link, I am not familiar with mahayana teachings. > I have heard that it is not exactly known who wrote the Prajna > Paramita Sutras of which the Diamond Sutra is one, but there is a > myth that Nagarjuna brought them back from the realm of the Nagas. > (snakes or Dragons) That the Naga king came to Nagarjuna and told him > that the 10,000 Buddhas had entrusted the Nagas with certain sutras > and that it was not time for them to be disseminated and that it was > Nagarjuna's job to do it. I think it is in Nepal that there is a > temple with a door covering a cave, it is through this cave that > Nagarjuna is said to have entered the Naga realm to obtain the sutras. I know these are legends, but if you don't mind, it doesn't seem to me to be so logical since according to the vinaya a naga cannot become ordained in the Buddhist order, if I remember correctly. Why would he entrust this to nagas when others could do it as well, perhaps devas and such, if he did not trust humans whom he spent 45 years teaching and were arahanta? This is the kind of thing you would never get in the Tipitaka that I study, you see. > If you read some of Nagarjuna's works like "Letter to a friend" > or "Verses from the centre" you can see a great similarity in > concepts and terminology, particularly references to emptiness. > > Many say that Nagarjuna is second only to Buddha in his effort to > promote the Dharma for the benefit of all beings. Many also attribute > Nagarjuna with being the original Mahayanist, if there is such a > thing. I would thing Nagarjuna would say that there is no such thing > as Hinyana or Mahayana, thats's why you can say that there is. I hope > you enjoy the Diamond Sutra and benefit from it's teaching. I have no doubt that the naga do exist, but to say that they preach the dhamma better than say the venerable Sariputta whom even the brahma revered is to be carefully considered. If the teachings do not correspond with what the Buddha taught or in contradiction with the reasoning of the Dhamma as a whole, I would say whoever teaches it is not doing as much good as a student who knows only a few things but which are according to the Buddha's teachings and say it. I think of the first time the Venerable Sariputta heard the dhamma form the bhikkhu who hadn't attained anything but because what was said was the true dhamma, the Venerable Sariputta was able to understand and attained a level of wisdom before the person who taught it to him, according to his accumulations. Mostly I am interested in any teaching that teaches me about things I can prove for myself right now, in all the Tipitaka there are repeated teachings about the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body sense and mind, which we all possess, every entity form the lowest hell to the brahma world (except for the arupabrahma worlds), and the experiences we have from them lead to the belief of the self, instead of knowing that all realities arise and fall away, except for nibbana. What we can study at all times are the differences between all these realities, visible objects that arise even as we read this, the distinct sounds and touch of the computers and the chair, all can teach us about the different realities that we take for us and ours. The knowledge accumulated from this study could one day show us the true nature of namadhamma (realities that are intelligence which can experience and know things, such as the citta and the cetasika) and rupadhamma (realities that can experience nothing, like dead bodies, minerals, empty space). Only right understanding of things as they really are could lead to realization through experience of different levels of wisdom, to show is that there are in fact only successions of realities that arise and fall away, no self or the rest of the world as such, only nama and rupa of different kinds arising according to conditions. Any teaching that can lead me to that I would seriously study, otherwise there are many interesting things in life, and with my accumulated lobha, I enjoy quite a lot of them, even though I do not believe or lead my life according to them. Thank you very much for all your kindnesses, and anumodana in your kusala cetana, Amara 3063 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 2:23pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > Thank you so much for the link, isn't the internet a wonderful thing! > I took a look at it this morning, it reminded me of a series of > messages I exchanged with another member of this list, (though I > haven't heard from him in a long time) in the early days, which are > still in the archives- these are mine, 272, 294 and 308. Dear all, Sorry for my numerous careless mistakes, (although I am pretty sure I did not send my message to Jim twice, that was the server's error that seemed to have followed us here) I have another amendment to make, the message number in my discussions are 277, etc.(294 and 308 are right). Amara 3064 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:11pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > Do you think pannatti also has characters of > anicca-dukkha-anatta? Pannatti > is not real in ultimate level but it can be an > object to manodvara. As Robert has mentioned, pannatti is not paramattha dhamma. It does not rise, it does not fall, and it doesn't have its own characteristics. It can be an object to manodvara (aramana-pacaya to mano-dvara cittas and cetasikas) even though it doesn't really exist. > > < properties of realities, or > it may be totally inaccurate For example, > Aristotle inferred that bird > feathers fall to the ground more slowly than a > piece of metal because it is > lighter. Pannatti is such: sometimes it is > reflexive of realities, sometimes > it is not.>> > > So do you mean that reality has some properties > which we may or may not know? Absolutely, had you ever understood, or directly known, what phassa was, before hearing Buddha's teachings? Do you know the properties of kaya-passadhi and citta-passadhi, again, without Buddha's teachings? How about kaya-vinnatti or vaji-vinnatti? > I don't want to digress but let me add in some > more questions to help my > understanding a little bit. I used gravity and > mag. field as examples in my > previous mail, this time I will go to sth > medical. Let say, "blood > pressure,BP" or "blood sugar, BS". The term or > the name definitely pannatti, > I can see that. Both BP and BS are co- and > interdependent on numerous > factors. Both are constantly change, nonself > and not under any personal > control. Is BP or BS just a concept (a thought) > or it a reflection of some > properties of reality, or is it just an illusion? I can think of three types of pannatti: 1) Pannatti that directly reflects the properties of ultimate realities, for example, cetana. 2) Pannatti that somewhat reflects the properties of ultimate relatiies, for example, Robert 3) Pannatti that doesn't exist at all, for example, freedom. Here's a classification of Pannatti's from Khun Amara's site: In the Abhidhammatthavibhavinitika, Chapter 8 there is a passage saying there are 6 nama-pannatti, namely: 1) Vijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for realities that exist such as rupa, nama, vedana, sanna etc. 2) Avijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms without existing realities such as Thai, "Farang" etc. There are no Thai or Farang, only realities that are citta, cetasika and rupa. Thai and Farang are conventional terms and not realities. Akusala citta are paramattha-dhamma, realities that exist, not Thai or Farang. Therefore akusala citta exist, as do kusala citta but Thai and Farang do not. The words Thai and Farang, therefore, are avijjamana-pannatti. 3) Vijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for non-existing with existing things. For example, to say that a person is called chalabhinna because of the meaning possessing the 6 abhinna; abhinna really exists but a person does not: such is the conventional term for non-existent with existent things. 4) Avijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for existent with non-existent things. For example, the sound of a woman: sound exists but a woman does not. 5) Vijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for things existent with existent things. For example, cakkhu-vinnana: cakkhu exists as cakkhuppasada, and vinnana exists as a consciousness. 6) Avijjamanenavijjamana-pannatti are conventional terms for non-existent with non-existent such as the son of a king. (The son and the king are both conventional terms). > < never fully know what the true > characteristics of bhavarupa is, as it may not > appear to the person without > the appropriate level of panna.>> > > So you said that there is some reality, even > though it's there we may not > able to experience due to level of panna? Or > there are some realities that > citta experienced but we just not able to be > aware of (this time I mean sati > as in satipatthana)? I am uncertain what you are asking above here, as Satipatthana always arises with panna. However, panna arising with Satipatthana is certainly unequal from one citta to another, leaving alone citta of one person's to another's. Sharper panna can see the finer realities than panna not as sharp can. For example, as long as the teachings of Gotama Buddha lasts, there is probably no other human that can appreciate Buddha's intricate teachings than Sariputta. His panna is only second to the Buddha's. Hence, he can explain these intricate phenomenon based on what he directly experience like no other arahat disciples (and hence we have the Abhidhamma). If you are asking if there are cittas (without sati, and without panna) that experience all these other finer realities without the "person" realizing it, I cannot answer that question. For example, without phassa, there can be no citta arising. However, can a person go through their life without EVER having phassa as the aramana? I have not heard an answer to this question, but it seems to me a good probability. kom 3065 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha Dear Bruce, got all the asubha, yes.. [as buddha adviced to recall] this has happened to me(and my loved ones) countless times in past, and they will happen in future too... Rgds. bruce on 01/26/2001 06:11:14 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] asubha i have a small collection of asubha ( = "foul") photographs in jpeg format; there are 11; 10 were taken by ambulance and rescue crews at accident sites, and were given to a monk at wat boworn in bkk, who passed them on to his students; the 11th is of a lynching in java during the riots preceding suharto's fall and was given to me by a javanese Bhikkhu... the photos are all, needless to say, *very* graphic, and most of them are extremely unpleasant....they are to be used to contemplate the body's foulness and impermanence ("i too am like this; this too could happen to me tomorrow")....i offer them to anyone in the group who would like to use them.... i'd rather not post them publicly, as i'm sure there are many list members who do not want to see them....if you would like me to send them to you in a zip file, please email me directly back-channel...i only ask that, if you request them, you simply state that you won't post them publicly....there is plenty of this stuff to be found on the web, of course, but for all the wrong reasons (imho...) bruce 3066 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? --- "Amara" wrote: > > I know these are legends, but if you don't mind, it doesn't seem to me > to be so logical since according to the vinaya a naga cannot become > ordained in the Buddhist order, if I remember correctly. Why would he > entrust this to nagas when others could do it as well, perhaps devas > and such, if he did not trust humans whom he spent 45 years teaching > and were arahanta? I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha tells Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first place? > Mostly I am interested in any teaching that teaches me about things I > can prove for myself right now, etc This is the very thing that attracts me to the BuddhaDhamma A lotus for you 3067 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha tells > Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, > holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. > So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were > kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. Dear friend, Exactly. > What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first > place? It was mentioned by someone who came to one of our dhamma discussions in Bangkok and I had never heard of it. As the person went back to his country I did not have a chance to ask him about it again, and forgot about it until now. Thank you again, my friends, once again I have learned a lot from this list, Amara 3068 From: Amara Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the process: by > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by trying to > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back to the > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the continuous > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my attention > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense doors....in other > words: formal practice..... Dear Bruce, I hope you and Robert could join us for a tour of India one day, and have some just as nice days as you did in Nara! About 'formal practice', though, as Robert mentioned, it was never mentioned as a prerequisite for panna. Satipatthana is however mentioned as the vipassana bhavana, or mental development. And one of the conditions and support for the arising of satipatthana are the four sampajana, which Satisotujana, a member of this list, brought up some time ago. These are exerpts of what I wrote about them then, I thought you might find them interesting: from no. 1109: As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya for some. Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to continue to arise.(...) from no. 1145: I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. from no. 1173: I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient and beneficial with right understanding. and lastly, 1223: Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on the other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, whatever comes could be studied. Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- with-moha or wrong understanding). I think all four help each other and awareness (satipatthana) to arise, (End multiple quotes!!!) Phew! I think I got most of it! Any way, do tell me what you think of it all, Amara 3069 From: Date: Mon Jan 29, 2001 7:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Kom and Robert, Robert: please do not feel reluctant to step in or correct me if I am kind of off the track. Every input is very welcome. <> So you mean pannatti is not sankhatadhamma, I mean simply b/c it not even exists. But pannatti needs causes and conditions to occur as well, right? For example when the baby just born, he did not know any name, meaning or vocabulary but as he grows up, he accumulates and associates sound or sight with meaning. He slowly learns to have verbal and nonverbal language. Interesting, pannatti can be a dhammaramana only to manodvra but it's not even real. I can see why pannatti is not paramatthadhamma. <> Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can see and hear since we were born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana until we have studied dhamma. Definitely we have experienced paramatthadhamma whether we have studied dhamma or not. So in the case of bhavarupa, I meant to ask that have we already experienced bhavarupa but we just were unable to be aware of bhavarupa b/c (i can your wording now) we do not enough panna. Last one for this mail. Where do you put mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but it's not real. I think it falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you categorize number in term of namapannatti? Alright. I am glad that I have signed into this group. Num 3070 From: Amara Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 10:59am Subject: Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) > The places sati > arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for > example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more > condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to > continue to arise.(...) Please note that the above (from no. 1109) was later amended by '... the bhavanga has the unique function of life continuum, keeping the person (citta, cetasika and rupa) alive during that lifetime in order to receive the vipaka they of the kamma they have done. It does not accumulate anything further, it just passes on whatever has been accumulated, which is why, although all the cetasika are there, none of them accumulate anything further, not even if they arise then.' (from no. 1113) Amara 3071 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello all, just getting to this thread about the Diamond Sutra. Now, whether this discourse comes from the Buddha, or from a relative to the nāga that covered the Buddha while he was meditating after coming to awakening and it was raining, or whether it was someone who wanted to give it the possibility of a respectful first reading and so claimed it was from the Buddha, ... hmmmm, didn't the Buddha say not to believe a teaching even if the person heard it from the Buddha's lips themselves? anyway, generational chit-chat aside (leaving aside the question of where the sutra came from) .... it is definitely in Sanskrit. I have read it a number of times. It is not that long, especially by the standard of some texts such as the Avatamsaka Sutra, or even some of the suttas in the Digha Nikaya, for that matter. It is held in respect for its depth of teaching (I paraphrase what I have heard in various quarters). Also in Ch'an tradition, it has a special standing because it is a verse from this sutra that Hui Neng is said to have heard that led him to Buddhist studies. He was later to become the sixth Zen Patriarch (Zen being the Japanese cognate to the Chinese term, Ch'an, of course). We may remember that Sariputta and Mahamoggallana also heard a verse and were led to seek out the Buddha. (Hui Neng was born much too late for that to happen.) Some may find part of the Diamond Sutra familiar if they have watched the entire film, Little Buddha. The verse that Hui Neng is said to have heard concerned the creation of an unsupported thought. I once read a little book by Takuan Sōhō, The Unfettered Mind and it discusses a similar idea, the unresting mind (omushoju jijogoshin). So it is relatedly given much respect. Of course, the Tibetans are not exactly mere followers of the Ch'an school! So the respect given this sutra goes beyond Ch'an! jinavamsa ========== --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > I think more to the point is that at the end of his life Buddha > tells > > Ananda (I think) that he has taught everything with an open hand, > > holding nothing back that would bring the practice to its fruition. > > So I would think it IS a myth that the Prajna Paramita Sutras were > > kept back and transmitted to Nagarjuna much later. > > > Dear friend, > > Exactly. > > > > What was it that had you looking for the Diamond Sutra in the first > > place? > > > It was mentioned by someone who came to one of our dhamma discussions > in Bangkok and I had never heard of it. As the person went back to > his country I did not have a chance to ask him about it again, and > forgot about it until now. > > Thank you again, my friends, once again I have learned a lot from this > list, > > Amara 3072 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 2:00pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > So you mean pannatti is not > sankhatadhamma, I mean simply b/c it not > even exists. But pannatti needs causes and > conditions to occur as well, > right? The conditioned dhamma has to be paramattha dhamma. The conditioning dhamma doesn't have to be paramatha dhamma. For example, pannatti can be aramana-pacaya to the citta. However, pannatti doesn't need to be conditioned to arise since it doesn't arise. There is also no conditions for nibhanna, even if it is paramattha dhamma, since it doesn't arise. >For example when the baby just born, he > did not know any name, > meaning or vocabulary but as he grows up, he > accumulates and associates sound > or sight with meaning. He slowly learns to have > verbal and nonverbal Pannatti is not only the verbal and non-verbal languages. The association of something as being something is already pannatti. For example, the association of a baby crib as being a thing is already pannatti. The association of this thing having a color is already pannatti. Baby's cittas cognize pannatti as aramana way before he knows any languages. > Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can > see and hear since we were > born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana > until we have studied dhamma. As also mentioned in the previous message, do you remember having phassa as aramana? Even without satipatthana, do you remember having anger as aramana? Lobha? What about kaya-vinatti, kaya-passadhi? > Last one for this mail. Where do you put > mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in > those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but > it's not real. I think it > falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you > categorize number in term of > namapannatti? This one is beyond me... kom 3073 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, You've certainly make a grand entrance to the list and have given our 'experts' some really challenging questions! I really appreciate hearing your questions and their responses and seeing how serious you are in your study of dhamma. Thanks for joining us and BTW can you also let us know a little more about yourself such as where you're based and where you've been studying abhidhamma. There's little I can add to all the other comments, but to make this post more 'dhammic' I'll try making a few short comments too. --- wrote: > Hi Kom and Robert, > > Let me clarify then. The same as a baby. We can > see and hear since we were > born but we didn't have sati as in satipatthana > until we have studied dhamma. > Definitely we have experienced paramatthadhamma > whether we have studied > dhamma or not. So in the case of bhavarupa, I meant > to ask that have we > already experienced bhavarupa but we just were > unable to be aware of > bhavarupa b/c (i can your wording now) we do not > enough panna. > The Buddha taught us about all the paramatthadhamma which make up our lives. Of course there are some (such as when experiencing jhanas) which do not make up our lives, but let us leave these aside for now. All the other complicated and intricate details, including all the rupas, are being experienced all the time without any knowing or understanding on our part. This is true for a baby or an adult. The world of concepts (and Kom has explained all the different kinds) begin as soon as this life starts. Again as Kom has explained, this world isn't dependent on words. Whether or not any panna develops in this life, the intricate realities will continue to exist and the cittas which think will continue to spin out those concepts. If a little panna begins to develop because we've heard, read and considered about what realities are, the realities and concepts for all intents and purposes which make up our lives will continue as they have done so. In other words, although a few of these realities may be understood more precisely and the truth of anatta may become clearer, the 'world' continues as before as described by the Buddha. This is true of realities which can be known now, such as seeing and hearing and lobha and dosa, and realities which probably can't be known now, such as bhavarupa or bhavanga citta. Does this clarify at all? I'm not sure! > Last one for this mail. Where do you put > mathematics fact, e.g., 2+2=4, in > those 6 categories of Pannati. It's a fact but it's > not real. I think it > falls in Avijjamana-pannatti. Anyway how you > categorize number in term of > namapannatti? I don't mean to be rude, but although this is interesting speculation, will it help you to develop more understanding of the realities appearing now? In Cambodia recently, Khun Sujin reminded us when we were studying abhidhamma, to study realities and not words. Best regards and looking forward to hearing many more of your questions! > > Alright. I am glad that I have signed into this > group. > We're glad too, Sarah 3074 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 3:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Friends, Robes & Terminology --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Let's not get carried away--some recent posts of > yours > make you familiarity with the tripitaka quite > clear--and quite clearly beyond my own. Mike, mostly 'bluff' I assure you! > > > BTW, I meant to thank you for also posting the > link > > and comments on Piyajatika Sutta (From One Who is > > Dear). It's been a condition for some useful > > reflection even though I had nothing to add > because > > the Sutta really said it all! > > I do hope you'll go to the trouble of looking up the > PTS translation. You (or another scholar) could > probably correct me on this, but 'Born of Affection' > seems to me much more to the point than 'From One > Who > Is Dear'. > > mn > I no longer have the PTS edition. In BB's edition (MN ii 1O6), he uses 'Born from Those Who Are Dear'.... 'Sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair are born from those who are dear, arise from those who are dear.' Jim may have comments on the translation which would be more appropriate than mine! Maybe I'll start repeating this for my mantra! Sarah p.s. I think 'nam'myoho renge kyo' was quite right. I had confidence that out of all your experience, you'd be able to provide the answer....I've got the 'beat' going in my head now! 3075 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Teng Kee, It's really great to welcome another translator and Pali expert to the list. As I just said to Num, if you feel like giving us a few more details about yourself that would be great too (but certainly not compulsory). --- teng kee ong wrote: > > We can only find thai transltaion of complete > tipitaka of commentary (without Patimokkha com)at > this moment in book format.Sri lanka and myanmar etc > only kept most of them in leaves. > But the hardest thing about doing translation for > PTS etc is adding translator notes/comment and > edition of Pali text been used. I'm not quite clear on this, but as Robert said, let us know if we can help. (Even if it's just to hear the frustrations!) This is not so for > thai and also for Sri lanka and Myanmar.i want to > translate Puggalapannti com for pts but the biggest > problem is those notes that I must add. O.K. let me start by giving you a qu. on this: I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of Human Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). 20." 'Which two persons are rare in this world? He who does good first* and he who recognises it:**-these two persons are rare in this world.' *Pubbakari- A person who does good to others before getting benefit from them (Comm). ** Or is grateful, katannukatavedi. It means that a person who after having known that he has got some benefit from others does benefit to them afterwards. The difference between the two is this, that the former thinks that the debt becomes due to him and the latter holds that he is paying off his debt (Comm)." The quote in the text seems quite clear to me. It's talking about rare kinds of kusala (skilful deeds). The comm. note (esp. the last one) is totally confusing to me. You may like to give me another translation! > I want to add that Bodhi samyutta translation is not > a gook work in my humble opinion. > He didn't use Thai/lannaThai,Laos,Cambodia,Mon pali > edition/leaf.Myanmar ,Thai(with Com),Cambodia or > even Japanese translations were not been used at > all.Someone can help even he don't know those > languages. I haven't seen it yet, but I'll be interested to hear any details or discussion on the SN suttas w/comm notes. Of course access to all useful texts is important and so is the understanding of the translator I find. There are too many things he can't offer > any help like Maggattha,sukkhavipassaka,anagami > etc.I think he misunderstood Com.and sub com a lot. Pls elaborate. Thanks for sharing your views and I look forward to hearing more. 3077 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 5:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi sarah thanks for your very thoughtful reply...i really appreciate your working through my post.... > So obviously you found that on the Japanese crowded > subways and trains there was plenty of useful > reflection and possibly moments of sati without any > special planning in advance... yes, very much....these places seem quite conducive to moments of object-awareness at the dvaras...and i think it's very much because i'm in a situation that does not, as i said in my original post, demand conceptualization: waiting on a subway platform, or hanging on a commuter-strap as the train races into the city; nobody is speaking to me, asking me to do anything; i don't *have to* consider anything at the conceptual level....it's at these moments when demands are not being made from without, that i remember and take notice of what is entering at one of the dvaras....i realize of course that this awareness can just as easily happen in the middle of someone saying "do you remember where joe told us he was going to put the files from last week's meeting about the new snakes?..." it just seems that it's much less likely, and that the external demands of non-sitting situations exponentially increase our tendency to remain mired in concepts... apologies, by the way, if what i relate sounds, um, selfish, as i continue to return to my personal experiences...i really don't have anything else to go on.... > > i also thought about how it might be possible to > > nurture the process: by > > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with > > the wise; by trying to > > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i > > keep coming back to the > > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to > > disengage from the continuous > > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and > > to give my attention > > completely and simply to what is arising at the six > > sense doors....in other > > words: formal practice..... > > I think we all agree that the development of > understanding and awareness are of prime importance. I > think we also agree that they can only know and be > aware of realities at the present moment (i.e. not of > concepts and not at any other time). I think we also > agree that these realities are conditioned in many > complex ways and are anatta (not self)...O.K? Can we > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > choices and decisions in life that this is an > illusion? i think we can agree, although my agreement wavers a bit when it comes to the last question.... and that's another topic: how free, really, is the will? oh, and i'm very much looking forward to nina's writing on viriya cetasika....if that one is on-line, pls send a url.... sarah, there was a lot more to your post i wanted to address, but may not get around to, except to say thanks; for now i want to get this bit in the mail, as my must-replies are starting to build up....which reminds me: i never thanked jonathan and others for the excellent responses to my first "sitting" query:: so pls know that your careful responses were much appreciated....i just got *very* caught up in the process of learning how not to smoke.....please know that i read and consider as much as humanly possible, but those first few weeks without said drug i was feeling far from human >:-) anumodana bruce 3078 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, I thought I'd would take the chance to look at one point in your letter to Sarah. --- Sarah wrote: > Can we > > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > > choices and decisions in life that this is an > > illusion? " ____ And you replied "my agreement wavers a bit when > it comes to > the last question...." ________________ This is THE big one. This is what Buddhist understanding leads us to see. It goes against our commonsense perception of the world. Yet the strange truth is that- at the deepest level- there is no control. Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) xxvii writes: “Because the functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and 2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas 3)”I can perform” and 4) “I can feel”. Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions” (end quote) We think 'I' am having insight. No, not so. If it is real insight it is simply a kusala citta(momentary consciousness) associated with panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) that takes a paramattha dhamma as object and sees some aspect of it correctly. Panna cetasika doesn't try to know this, it doesn't even want to know this. But its kicca(function) is to understand. On the other hand if it is imitation insight then it is akusala citta arising with a subtle type of avijja that misunderstands, that is mistaking concept for something real. Avijja has no wish to distort but its function is to obscure, that is what it does. It is also not self. Not your avijja, or mine. An example of imitation insight. One feels the subtle sensations and vibrations in the body and assumes this is now direct insight. But there can still be a deep-rooted idea that these are particles. That they have some type of lasting existence, that they have time to "vibrate" or do something. There is not yet insight into paramattha. Avijja is still running among concepts - even if there is no thinking in words. True insight slowly understands the characteristic, cause, and function of rupas as well as other dhammas. It will distinguish between concept and reality. "We" can't know the difference - but if the right conditions are nurtured then panna must develop and see. The problem, of course, is that there are powerful conditions for avijja to arise. It has been arising, almost without break, ever since we took birth. That is just this life - there is no beginning to the round of samsara, and avijja is the cause of it all. Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises due to hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly cognise dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think. Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the task? Can we understand that it is not us being patient? Robert 3079 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as possible. we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left or a right here at this fork in the road.... but we choose one or the other according to conditions. the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... (i have to state this simply -- though i know the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) ....and these conditions were themselves determined by previous conditions, in a chain that just keeps going back.... and not just thinking about this but really seeing and knowing it -- real, non-conceptual insight-- is what breaks the chain... **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** you're a really good teacher robert thanks for the right words bruce At 02:35 2001/01/30 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > I thought I'd would take the chance to look at one point in your > letter to Sarah. > > --- Sarah wrote: > > Can we > > > also agree that although it seems that WE can make > > > choices and decisions in life that this is an > > > illusion? " > ____ > > And you replied "my agreement wavers a bit when > > it comes to > > the last question...." > > > ________________ > This is THE big one. This is what Buddhist understanding leads > us to see. It goes against our commonsense perception of the > world. Yet the strange truth is that- at the deepest level- > there is no control. > Thein Nyun in his preface to the DhatuKathu (Pali Text Society) > xxvii writes: $BE#(Jecause the > functions of the elements give rise to the concepts of > continuity, collection and form, the ideas arise: > 1)the initial effort that has to be exerted when a > deed is about to be performed and > 2) the care that has > to be taken while the deed is being performed to its > completion and this leads to the subsequent ideas > 3)$BG*(J can perform$BG(Jand > 4) $BE*(J can feel$BG(J > Thus these four > imaginary characteristic functions of being have > bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. > But the elements have not the time or span of duration > to carry out such functions$BG(J(end quote) > > We think 'I' am having insight. No, not so. If it is real > insight it is simply a kusala citta(momentary consciousness) > associated with panna cetasika (mental factor of wisdom) that > takes a paramattha dhamma as object and sees some aspect of it > correctly. Panna cetasika doesn't try to know this, it doesn't > even want to know this. But its kicca(function) is to > understand. On the other hand if it is imitation insight then it > is akusala citta arising with a subtle type of avijja that > misunderstands, that is mistaking concept for something real. > Avijja has no wish to distort but its function is to obscure, > that is what it does. It is also not self. Not your avijja, or > mine. > An example of imitation insight. One feels the subtle sensations > and vibrations in the body and assumes this is now direct > insight. But there can still be a deep-rooted idea that these > are particles. That they have some type of lasting existence, > that they have time to "vibrate" or do something. There is not > yet insight into paramattha. Avijja is still running among > concepts - even if there is no thinking in words. > True insight slowly understands the characteristic, cause, and > function of rupas as well as other dhammas. It will distinguish > between concept and reality. "We" can't know the difference - > but if the right conditions are nurtured then panna must develop > and see. > The problem, of course, is that there are powerful conditions > for avijja to arise. It has been arising, almost without break, > ever since we took birth. That is just this life - there is no > beginning to the round of samsara, and avijja is the cause of it > all. Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises due to > hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly cognise > dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think. > Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the task? Can we > understand that it is not us being patient? > Robert > 3080 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) hi amara thanks so much for all this information....i need to and read these passages again and again, and i'm really grateful that you did the research for me in the group's files...i now have a starting point....due to time constraints, i'd put my goal of reading the entire archive pretty much on hold, but now at least i know there is a place where i can dive right in and the water will be warm! :-) i certainly need to study the concept of sampajanna from the beginning, and this will help immensely.... anumodana bruce At 14:46 2001/01/29 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > i also thought about how it might be possible to nurture the > process: by > > reading/listening to the Dhamma; by associating with the wise; by > trying to > > cultivate moments of right understanding....and i keep coming back > to the > > idea that it seems beneficial to attempt to disengage from the > continuous > > barrage of papanca-inducing sensory experience, and to give my > attention > > completely and simply to what is arising at the six sense > doors....in other > > words: formal practice..... > > > Dear Bruce, > > I hope you and Robert could join us for a tour of India one day, and > have some just as nice days as you did in Nara! About 'formal > practice', though, as Robert mentioned, it was never mentioned as a > prerequisite for panna. Satipatthana is however mentioned as the > vipassana bhavana, or mental development. And one of the conditions > and support for the arising of satipatthana are the four sampajana, > which Satisotujana, a member of this list, brought up some time ago. > These are exerpts of what I wrote about them then, I thought you might > find them interesting: > > from no. 1109: > As Khun Sujin explained and if I remember correctly, sampajanna > precedes as well as supports satipatthana, while yoniso manasikara > accompanies it. Sampajanna means not only clear but thorough and in > all areas, for example sapaya sampajanna means to know what is > convenient and benificient: does one have to wait for the evening to > go to a Karaoke to see if one can have sati there or can we just be > where we are, right now there are conditions for us to be here in > front of the computer screen and study realities as they appear? And I > was once in a nightclub in Paris with some friends and I could not > stop some fleeting awareness from arising even if I had wanted to. > Does location really matter? In one of the commentaries, seeing the > chedi of a temple (in India) had been conditions for thousands of > bhikkhus to attain stages of enlightenment, on hearing this many would > try to rush there and try it out. They forget the bhikkhus LIVE where > they see it daily. The commentary also says that when there are > festivals when the towns people flock there it might not be the sapaya > for some. > > Another is gojara sampajanna. Gojara is the place one travels to > which is the place one is in or the path one takes. The places sati > arises in are the six dvara, (sati never arises in the bhavanga, for > example), and once we have this sampajanna knowledge, we have one more > condition for sati and understanding of deeper kinds to arise and to > continue to arise.(...) > > > from no. 1145: > I have been thinking about your question, and I think we may safely > say that the four sampajanna are, to summarize, to know what is good > for you and what isn't, what is beneficial and what is less suitable > for your accumulations. The last sampajanna, asammoha sampajanna is > also to know the difference between ignorance and right understanding, > an essential prerequisite for panna that sees things as they really > are. Sati sampajanna on the other hand is to be aware through all the > dvara without prejudices or preferences. The first comes before the > latter begins, and continues to support its future arising. > > > from no. 1173: > I think it must depend somewhat on the individual's accumulations and > level of understanding. In the Sutta I remember a story when a > bhikkhu took a samanera to town to get a toothbrush, and for some > reason, I forget why, the samanera went ahead and saw a corpse, and he > studied and attained a level of ariya puggala there in the streets. > The bhikkhu saw him standing there so he called him and the samanera > thought he might help the elder so he went back to him and told him to > go and look at the same place, while he waited where he was. The > bhikkhu went and saw the same corpse and attained his level also. The > thing is I doubt I would ever find that sort of thing sapaya, nor that > it would be so easily found in modern streets? But now that I think > about it, how would one know if it hasn't happened? That's the thing > with sapaya, isn't it, you don't have to worry about anything, > whatever comes can be studied, therefore all aramana can be convenient > and beneficial with right understanding. > > and lastly, 1223: > > Sapaya is perhaps that you don't have to go looking for it, or on the > other hand if you can't avoid it, not to worry about it, whatever > comes could be studied. > > Asammoha is to know realities as they really are, (a-sam-moha = not- > with-moha or wrong understanding). > > I think all four help each other and awareness (satipatthana) to > arise, > > > (End multiple quotes!!!) > > Phew! I think I got most of it! Any way, do tell me what you think of > it all, > > Amara > 3081 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > but we choose one or the other according to conditions. Right. > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > ....and these conditions were themselves > determined by previous conditions, > in a chain that just keeps going back.... Right! > > and not just thinking about this > but really seeing and knowing it > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > is what breaks the chain... > Right! Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating Nara here is a deep section from the commentaries . Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of recluseship by Bodhi) One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead and looking aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this is just a slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these five aggregates. Therein, who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks ahead, no one who looks aside. The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; form is the form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated phenomena such as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these four sense bases." Next the commentary lists some of the conditions (paccaya explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book of the Abhidhamma) "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; forms are an object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive support, absence, and disapearance condition; light is a decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are conascence conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. We usually have no problem in understanding that such things as heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are conditioned phenomena, not under control. (but even these we still cling to as self) However, even most buddhists - who have heard about anatta-don't realise that activities involving 'choice' are still not under anyones control. I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my control? In a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes it is. But we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - past and present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The feeling of thirst arose because of different conditions. The thought to get water - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That is life in any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have been deluded into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run among concepts. With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real world, of namas and rupas. Robert 3082 From: bruce Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) robert this is great passage, deep but very clear, thanks so much bruce At 03:52 2001/01/30 -0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > --- bruce wrote: > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to conditions. > > Right. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > Right! > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > Right! > > Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating Nara here is a > deep section from the commentaries . > Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of recluseship > by Bodhi) > One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead and looking > aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this is just a > slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} > The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and looking aside are > discerned in the assemblage of these five aggregates. Therein, > who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" > The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks ahead, no one > who looks aside. > The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; form is the > form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated phenomena such > as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus looking ahead and > looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these four > sense bases." > Next the commentary lists some of the conditions (paccaya > explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book of the > Abhidhamma) > "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; forms are an > object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive > support, absence, and disapearance condition; light is a > decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are conascence > conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned > in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. > > We usually have no problem in understanding that such things as > heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are conditioned > phenomena, not under control. (but even these we still cling to > as self) However, even most buddhists - who have heard about > anatta-don't realise that activities involving 'choice' are > still not under anyones control. > I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my control? In > a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes it is. But > we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - past and > present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The feeling of thirst > arose because of different conditions. The thought to get water > - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That is life in > any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have been deluded > into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run among > concepts. > With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real world, of > namas and rupas. > Robert > 3083 From: Amara Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Jina, Thanks for the additional information, Amara > just getting to this thread about the Diamond Sutra. Now, > whether this discourse comes from the Buddha, or from a > relative to the nāga that covered the Buddha while he > was meditating after coming to awakening and it was raining, > or whether it was someone who wanted to give it the possibility > of a respectful first reading and so claimed it was from the > Buddha, ... hmmmm, didn't the Buddha say not to believe a > teaching even if the person heard it from the Buddha's lips > themselves? anyway, generational chit-chat aside (leaving > aside the question of where the sutra came from) .... it is > definitely in Sanskrit. I have read it a number of times. > It is not that long, especially by the standard of some texts > such as the Avatamsaka Sutra, or even some of the suttas in > the Digha Nikaya, for that matter. It is held in respect for > its depth of teaching (I paraphrase what I have heard in various > quarters). Also in Ch'an tradition, it has a special standing > because it is a verse from this sutra that Hui Neng is said to > have heard that led him to Buddhist studies. He was later to > become the sixth Zen Patriarch (Zen being the Japanese cognate > to the Chinese term, Ch'an, of course). We may remember that > Sariputta and Mahamoggallana also heard a verse and were led > to seek out the Buddha. (Hui Neng was born much too late for > that to happen.) Some may find part of the Diamond Sutra familiar > if they have watched the entire film, Little Buddha. The verse > that Hui Neng is said to have heard concerned the creation of > an unsupported thought. I once read a little book by Takuan > Sōhō, The Unfettered Mind and it discusses a similar idea, the > unresting mind (omushoju jijogoshin). So it is relatedly given > much respect. Of course, the Tibetans are not exactly mere > followers of the Ch'an school! So the respect given this sutra > goes beyond Ch'an! 3084 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 0:22am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert et Al, Are their any other conditions for Satipatthana to arise besides the firm and right understandings of dhamma? kom 3085 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 0:21am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of Human > Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) where this sutta resides? > *Pubbakari- A person who does good to others before > getting benefit from them (Comm). > ** Or is grateful, katannukatavedi. It means that a > person who after having known that he has got some > benefit from others does benefit to them afterwards. > The difference between the two is this, that the > former thinks that the debt becomes due to him and the > latter holds that he is paying off his debt (Comm)." > > The quote in the text seems quite clear to me. It's > talking about rare kinds of kusala (skilful deeds). > The comm. note (esp. the last one) is totally > confusing to me. You may like to give me another > translation! Although I haven't seen this sutta or the commentaries myself, the words pubbakari and katannuakatavedi are conveniently common in the Thai language. Pubbakari often refers to your parents or teachers, and the persons having katannukatavedi are often children or pupils. I feel indebted to my parents and my teachers, and therefore I can see how the commentaries give such a comment. However, coming from the point of Pubbakari thinking that debts should be paid to him is harder. I often see my parents and teachers give without obvious reasons except for the benefits of me: I can't see how they are getting any (immediate) thing out of it, or that they are expecting that they will get any (non-immediate) thing out of it. Surely, there are examples of persons being pubbakari or having katannuakatavedi without feeling that they are due, or that they are indebted, because that implies attachment to self. For example, Buddha is Pubbakari like no other Pubbakari. I certainly don't understand how he could have thought he was either the giver or the person whose debt would become due. Sariputta always showed respect to Assachi out of his katannuakatavedi wherever he was. However, I don't understand how he could have thought of himself as the receiver, nor the person who is indebted. kom 3086 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi all, I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Remind of a story in Tipitaka that a monk tried to closely follow the Buddha everywhere but the Buddha with his intuitive panna told the monk that "he who sees dhamma, sees the Buddha. A person who sits next to him may not even exactly see him". I could not recall the name of that monk at this moment I don't know much about Mahayanna but to me the core is very similar to Theravada. Num 3087 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Hi Sarah, Just like to share some minor inputs to the word in your mail. It just happened that I am somewhat interested in the link between English and Pali-Sanskrit b/c they both share common origin, Indo-European language. I am not a linguistic expert though. Pubba, B can be substituted by R pura --> per or pre in English, which means before or first. The word purana in Sanskrit means ancient. Vedi or veda mean knowledge --> root of the word wisdom in English. You can learn more at the site dictionary.com Hope it is somewhat helpful. Num 3088 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 2:17am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello Num, I do not at the moment remember the name of the monk in the story you recount here. I do recall having heard this as part of a larger incident, at least if I'm linking the correct two together. There was a monk who found the Buddha very physically attractive. The Buddha is said to have been handsome. His skin was a beautiful color. Well, suva.n.na means both well-tinted and golden. So we might say he had a golden skin or a beautiful color of skin. In any case, the Buddha realized that this monk was following him around all the time simply to see his beauty. At that moment the Buddha gave his teaching as you quote (about He who sees the Buddha sees the Dhamma, etc.) The monk in question became quite despondent, depressed, and went off to medidate and perhaps to kill himself. The Buddha appeared to him and cleared the man's mind. Is this the same story you are thinking of? Maybe I'll remember the monk's name .... jinavamsa --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse > on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras > last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I > have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we > hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Remind of a story in Tipitaka that > a monk tried to closely follow the Buddha everywhere but the Buddha with his > intuitive panna told the monk that "he who sees dhamma, sees the Buddha. A > person who sits next to him may not even exactly see him". I could not > recall the name of that monk at this moment > > I don't know much about Mahayanna but to me the core is very similar to > Theravada. > > Num > > > 3089 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 2:21am Subject: Re: Foremost analyst hi Num, a minor point on a minor input :>) re pubba in Pali. In Pali doubled consonants (to speak generally) may well represent two distinct consonants in the related Vedic or Sanskrit cognate; the length of the preceding vowel may differ in certain systematic ways, as well. pubba in Pali corresponds to what would usually be transliterated into Latin as (Sanskrit) pūrva. I'm not sure of the fuller context of this question. jinavamsa --- wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Just like to share some minor inputs to the word in your mail. It just > happened that I am somewhat interested in the link between English and > Pali-Sanskrit b/c they both share common origin, Indo-European language. I am > not a linguistic expert though. > > Pubba, B can be substituted by R pura --> per or pre in English, which means > before or first. The word purana in Sanskrit means ancient. > Vedi or veda mean knowledge --> root of the word wisdom in English. > > You can learn more at the site dictionary.com > > Hope it is somewhat helpful. > Num 3090 From: Date: Tue Jan 30, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Hi Sarah, <> I have to decline your statement this time. I am considered myself as a beginner. Dhamma is very deep and bottomless to me. I felt like, as someone mentioned in the mail earlier, I am only a frog happened to hear the Buddha discourse. And at times all I can say is "this stuff is good". <> Remind me of Milindapanha when the King asked Ven.Nakasana about himself. Can I be a little semantic? In the reality I am nothing just temporary aggregation of Sankara. Let come back to pannatti world : I am now in St.Louis, Missouri USA. I am Thai in origin. Well, let see, I am a psychiatrist. I am an instructor at a Med. School in St.Louis. I mainly teach and do research in genetics of mental disorder. My first interest in Buddhism is when I was younger, I read Milindapanya from my grandfather books collection. And as I said, I was fascinated by the method those two persons discoursed. That's my very first book, took me more than a year to finish, and I think I haven't really finished it yet even I have read it couple times now both in Thai and English. Later I happened to hear khun Sujin on radio b/c my aunt listened to that station and I felt "this stuff is good". I read couple of her books as well as checked the origin from tipitaka. I am mainly now studying from Tipitaka CDrom, Mahidol Univ. version and read some suttas in English from accesstoinsight website and some other. My main mean of learning is coming from my daily life. As a doctor I saw a lot of interesting human behavior. I always ask myself what exactly I see or why this happens. When I saw a stroke patient who cannot walk or talk, I always wonder why. I wonder how man communicate. When I suffer, I ask why. To me phenomenon has conditions and causes as factors. When I am happy, I ask why as well. I still enjoy earthly pleasure. I play tennis like a crazy. <> I don't take that as an offensive question. You are not rude at all. Thanks for asking. As I mentioned in my mail to khun Amara earlier : "I somewhat agree with you. Critical reading and thinking may not unnecessary but can be very essential in nourishing samma ditthi. For me, a wonderer, careful thinking can condition the way I understand the world, reality and dhamma, I mean samma dhitti". I am kind of skeptical and reluctant to accept any doctrines before thinking carefully about it. I totally agree with you though that reality is here and now but it's hard for me who cling to the idea that this is the world or this is self. Well, that's lot of information about myself. I feel a little weird sharing my personal information on the net. Num 3091 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:21am Subject: Nirodha I am interested in this term: Nirodha does anyone have any information on the background of the term I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the limitations of English. I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like embankment. I would be interested in your comments. antony 3092 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) --- bruce wrote: > you're a really good teacher > robert thanks for the right words > > bruce ...ain't it the truth, Bruce... mike 3093 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Sadhu, Robert and Bruce. mn --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > --- bruce wrote: > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can > take a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to > conditions. > > Right. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by > conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more > complicated) > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > Right! > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > Right! > > Just while the light bulbs are still illuminating > Nara here is a > deep section from the commentaries . > Sammanaphala sutta (trans. as discourse on fruits of > recluseship > by Bodhi) > One phrase from the sutta says "in looking ahead > and looking > aside he acts with clear comprehension". {Note this > is just a > slight twist of the head or movement of the eyes} > The commentary(p120): "thus looking ahead and > looking aside are > discerned in the assemblage of these five > aggregates. Therein, > who is it that looks ahead or looks aside?" > The tika: The meaning is there is no one who looks > ahead, no one > who looks aside. > The commentary: So, too the eye is the eye base; > form is the > form base;seeing is the mind base;the associated > phenomena such > as feeling etc. are the mind-object base. thus > looking ahead and > looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of > these four > sense bases." > Next the commentary lists some of the conditions > (paccaya > explained in great detail in the Patthana- 7th book > of the > Abhidhamma) > "So, too the eye is a support condition for seeing; > forms are an > object condition; adverting is a proximity, > contiguity, decisive > support, absence, and disapearance condition; light > is a > decisive support condition; feeling, etc. are > conascence > conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are > discerned > in the assemblage of these conditions" end quote. > > We usually have no problem in understanding that > such things as > heartbeat and blood pumping around the body are > conditioned > phenomena, not under control. (but even these we > still cling to > as self) However, even most buddhists - who have > heard about > anatta-don't realise that activities involving > 'choice' are > still not under anyones control. > I go to get a glass of water. Surely that is in my > control? In > a conventional sense, in the world of concepts, yes > it is. But > we don't see the subtle interplay of conditions - > past and > present; so complex and hidden by avijja. The > feeling of thirst > arose because of different conditions. The thought > to get water > - again conditioned. And so it goes on and on. That > is life in > any plane. What is sad is that for so long we have > been deluded > into believing that it is all "me"- avijja has run > among > concepts. > With the Dhamma we learn about a new world, the real > world, of > namas and rupas. > Robert > 3094 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:29am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I agree with Jina that we probably cannot know who exactly gave the discourse > on Diamond sutra. I just finished reading the English version of the sutras > last night. My impression is it's very similar to a lot of Pali suttas that I > have read. Mainly talking about nonself and disintegrated the thing that we > hold as person, self or even the Buddha. Dear Num, Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course. First I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the foundation. My provisory thoughts on the text as translated (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you gave me, , is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am studying. For example when it says towards the beginning, 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been liberated,' Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself. And further on it says: "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned." This would seem to negate all the meticulous distinctions made throughout the Tipitaka and Commentaries of the ABSOLUTE TRUTHS OR REALITIES THAT TRULY EXIST arising and falling away by conditions except for nibbana, (the paramattha dhamma: the eye, ear, nose tongue, body sense and mind and their objects; classified as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana), and the CONVENTIONAL TRUTHS, panatti, in this case the teaching about the truth, therefore conventional truth that explains the truth that really exists. It is the concepts and the selves that are empty and nothingness, to say that there are no realities or truths at all does not fit in with the rest of the teaching, which say absolute realities are real and arise and fall away according to conditions, therefore not the self. These truths can be proven, we do see at this moment, something is there that is intelligence experiencing visible objects through the eyes and through the mind, which also really exists, the mind is not emptiness. But we all take it for the self, not as different realities that arise and fall away under no one's control when in fact the self is not there. Still one needs to distinguish what is really there and what really does not exist. If all were the same there would be no need to study the dhamma at all, indeed there would be no dhamma to study! And although we have never experienced nibbana at any level of wisdom, the Buddha taught that it is one of the four paramatthadhamma, and really exists, which is why when panna has nibbana as arammana kilesa can be eradicated. All the intricacies of realities are carefully explained in the Tipitaka that is not found in this sutta to my mind. But then I am very dense at reading between the lines, what is clearly stated is already complicated enough for me. So it is probably my own stupidity, but I find these kinds of texts less than helpful for my own understanding. The Buddha taught us to check all teachings that are said to be his against the body of his teachings before concluding that they were his, and I think it is detrimental to our studies if we do not do that. In the Tipitaka so far I have never found any discrepancies but then I have not read all of it, in fact I have read very little compared to others on this list. The dhamma is not simple, otherwise one would not need to accumulate so much panna to become a Buddha. To become a arahanta ekatagga there needed to be accumulations of hundreds of thousands of kappa, to become a Pacceka Buddha, two asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa and to be a Sammasam Buddha, four asankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa. Oversimplification of the dhamma could lead to much misunderstanding, I think. Teachings about realities and non realities form the heart of Buddhism, to say that nothing is real seems to be beneath the Buddha to me. But as I said, I have not seen the Pali version, and this is just off the cuff at the moment, my apologies to serious students of the sutta. I believe life is short, I have time to study seriously only the Tipitaka mainly, and just read through other texts like I read everything else. Of course others are welcome to analyze any writings as much as they please, in fact I rather enjoy reading even the news, novels, literary analysis, food critics and even articles on video games. It doesn't change my preferences in the texts I choose to study analytically and conscientiously in any way. But this is my personal accumulations, so to each his own study (or his nothing to study!)! Amara 3095 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:40am Subject: Re: Nirodha > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. Dear Antony, I am no Pali expert, as most of the list know, but in my opinion Nirodha as in nirodha samapati does mean cessation, in this case temporary cessation of the arising of the citta for a certain period of time. It seems logical that parinibbana being the ultimate ceasing of endless eternities of the citta arising in ceaseless succession that for the anagami or the arahanta with a high enough jhana who lives for others to temporarily have nirodha samapati when they have nothing to do. I think that they have certain understandings concerning the case when there is anything they have to do they should be able to perform them normally right away as well. Looking forward to what our experts say, Amara 3096 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Jinawamsa, If I remember correctly the name of the monk is 'Vakkali' later Vakkali becomes an arahant. This story shows the different ways that people get into the 'path' and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her apparent actions. regards. 3097 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi khun Amara, The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from the plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave you, but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles Patton. I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see some differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. Bear with me, OK. Your paste <<'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been liberated,'>> From the pdf.version ((( 3. The Buddha addressed Subhåti, saying, "Bodhisattva-mahąsattvas should thus subdue their minds: 'Where there is every single sort of sentient being; whether egg-born,womb-born, water-born, or born of transformation; whether having form or formless; whether having thought or no thought; whether neither having thought nor no thought; I will cause all to enter the non-residual Nirvąõa, liberating them. Thus liberating the measureless, countless, and boundless sentient beings, in reality there are no sentient beings attaining that liberation.' And why? Subhåti, if a bodhisattva has the image of a self, the image of a person, the image of beings, or the image of a soul; then he is not a bodhisattva. ))) Your paste << "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the unconditioned.">> pdf version ((( 7. "Subhåti, what do you think? The Tathągata has attained the supremely unexcelled bodhi, no? The Tathągata has a teaching of the Dharma, no?"Subhåti replied, "As I have understood the meaning of the Buddha's discourse, there is no certain Dharma called 'the supremely unexcelled bodhi'. Also, there is no certain Dharma that the Tathągata can expound. And why? The Dharmas expounded by the Tathągata are intangible and inexpressible. They are neither Dharmas nor non-Dharmas. And why is that? All of the Sages make discriminations from the unconditioned Dharma."))) Let me put in Vacchagotta sutta from Majjhima Nikaya 72. I got this from accesstoinsight site. (((I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" "...no..." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view 'the cosmos is eternal...'...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus entirely dissociated from each of these ten positions?" "Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding. "The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'... "...'the cosmos is finite'... "...'the cosmos is infinite'... "...'the soul & the body are the same'... "...'the soul is one thing and the body another'... "...'after death a Tathagata exists'... "...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... "...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'...does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding." "Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata -- with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & tendencies to conceits -- is, through lack of sustenance/clinging, released." "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he reappear?" "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear." "'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." "...both does & does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "...neither does nor does not reappear." "...doesn't apply." "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk reappears...does not reappear...both does & does not reappear...neither does nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured." "Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is burning in front of me'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on grass & timber as its sustenance.'" "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" "...yes..." "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)." "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply. "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion -- divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood -- it would stand as pure heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood. "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what had been overturned, were to reveal what was hidden, were to show the way to one who was lost, or were to hold up a lamp in the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way Master Gotama has -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." ))) Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to different person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. Let me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in studying dhamma. Appreciate your input. Anumodhana. (Hope I do not flood all the space in e-group.) Num 3098 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from the > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave you, > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles Patton. > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see some > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. > Bear with me, OK. > > Your paste > <<'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from eggs, > from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they have form or do > not have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; or > whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or that they do > not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana > so that they can be liberated. And when this innumerable, immeasurable, > infinite number of beings has become liberated, we do not, in truth, think > that a single being has been liberated,'>> > > From the pdf.version > ((( > 3. > The Buddha addressed Subhåti, saying, "Bodhisattva-mahąsattvas should thus > subdue their minds: 'Where there is every single sort of sentient being; > whether egg-born,womb-born, water-born, or born of transformation; whether > having form or formless; whether having thought or no thought; whether > neither having thought nor no thought; I will cause all to enter the > non-residual Nirvąõa, liberating them. Thus liberating the measureless, > countless, and boundless sentient beings, in reality there are no sentient > beings attaining that liberation.' And why? Subhåti, if a bodhisattva has the > image of a self, the image of a person, the image of beings, or the image of > a soul; then he is not a bodhisattva. ))) > > Your paste > << "What do you think, Subhuti, has the Tathagata arrived at the highest, > most fulfilled, awakened mind? Does the Tathagata give any teaching?" The > Venerable Subhuti replied, "As far as I have understood the Lord Buddha's > teachings, there is no independently existing object of mind called the > highest, most fulfilled, awakened mind, nor is there any independently > existing teaching that the Tathagata gives. Why? The teachings that the > Tathagata has realized and spoken of cannot be conceived of as separate, > independent existences and therefore cannot be described. The Tathagata's > teaching is not self-existent nor is it non-self-existent. Why? Because the > noble teachers are only distinguished from others in terms of the > unconditioned.">> > > pdf version > ((( > 7. > "Subhåti, what do you think? The Tathągata has attained the supremely > unexcelled bodhi, no? The Tathągata has a teaching of the Dharma, no?"Subhåti > replied, "As I have understood the meaning of the Buddha's discourse, there > is no certain Dharma called 'the supremely unexcelled bodhi'. Also, there is > no certain Dharma that the Tathągata can expound. And why? The Dharmas > expounded by the Tathągata are intangible and inexpressible. They are neither > Dharmas nor non-Dharmas. And why is that? All of the Sages make > discriminations from the unconditioned Dharma."))) I do not see that much difference in the version, whereas there is definite difference in the following: > Let me put in Vacchagotta sutta from Majjhima Nikaya 72. I got this from > accesstoinsight site. > > (((I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, > at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Then the wanderer Vacchagotta went to > the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. > After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat down to one > side. As he was sitting there he asked the Blessed One: "How is it, Master > Gotama, does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is eternal: only this > is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is not eternal: only this > is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is finite: only this is > true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The cosmos is infinite: only this is > true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul & the body are the same: > only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'The soul is one thing and the body > another: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata exists: only > this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata does not > exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata both exists > & does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "Then does Master Gotama hold the view: 'After death a Tathagata neither > exists nor does not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is > worthless'?" > > "...no..." > > "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if he holds the view > 'the cosmos is eternal...'...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does > not exist: only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless,' he says > '...no...' in each case. Seeing what drawback, then, is Master Gotama thus > entirely dissociated from each of these ten positions?" > > "Vaccha, the position that 'the cosmos is eternal' is a thicket of views, a > wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of > views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it > does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct > knowledge, full awakening, Unbinding. > > "The position that 'the cosmos is not eternal'... > > "...'the cosmos is finite'... > > "...'the cosmos is infinite'... > > "...'the soul & the body are the same'... > > "...'the soul is one thing and the body another'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata exists'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata does not exist'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... > > "...'after death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'...does not > lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, > full awakening, Unbinding." > > "Does Master Gotama have any position at all?" > > "A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. ********* This is the BIG DIFFERENCE to me, as Kom mentioned recently, the Buddha KNOWS, he does not FORM OPINIONS OF SPECULATE. What he teaches is the absolute truth, and not thories and calculations like for others, for example when the Bible says the world is flat and the center of the universe. What > a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its > disappearance; such is feeling, such its origin, such its disappearance; such > is perception...such are mental fabrications...such is consciousness, such > its origin, such its disappearance.' Because of this, I say, a Tathagata -- > with the ending, fading out, cessation, renunciation, & relinquishment of all > construings, all excogitations, all I-making & mine-making & tendencies to > conceits -- is, through lack of sustenance/clinging, released." > > "But, Master Gotama, the monk whose mind is thus released: Where does he > reappear?" > > "'Reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." > > "In that case, Master Gotama, he does not reappear." > > "'Does not reappear,' Vaccha, doesn't apply." > > "...both does & does not reappear." > > "...doesn't apply." > > "...neither does nor does not reappear." > > "...doesn't apply." > > "How is it, Master Gotama, when Master Gotama is asked if the monk > reappears...does not reappear...both does & does not reappear...neither does > nor does not reappear, he says, '...doesn't apply' in each case. At this > point, Master Gotama, I am befuddled; at this point, confused. The modicum of > clarity coming to me from your earlier conversation is now obscured." > > "Of course you're befuddled, Vaccha. Of course you're confused. Deep, Vaccha, > is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond > the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. For those > with other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other > teachers, it is difficult to know. That being the case, I will now put some > questions to you. Answer as you see fit. How do you construe this, Vaccha: If > a fire were burning in front of you, would you know that, 'This fire is > burning in front of me'?" > > "...yes..." > > "And suppose someone were to ask you, Vaccha, 'This fire burning in front of > you, dependent on what is it burning?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" > > "...I would reply, 'This fire burning in front of me is burning dependent on > grass & timber as its sustenance.'" > > "If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, > 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?" > > "...yes..." > > "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front > of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or > south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" > > "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a > sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished -- from having consumed > that sustenance and not being offered any other -- is classified simply as > 'out' (unbound)." ***************** You see here that he doesn't say the fire did not exist, but it had gone out. > "Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata > would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, > like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not > destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, > the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' > doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't > apply. > > "Any feeling...Any perception...Any mental fabrication... > > "Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: > That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm > tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future > arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the > Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' > doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not > reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't > apply." > > When this was said, the wanderer Vacchagotta said to the Blessed One: "Master > Gotama, it is as if there were a great sala tree not far from a village or > town: From inconstancy, its branches and leaves would wear away, its bark > would wear away, its sapwood would wear away, so that on a later occasion -- > divested of branches, leaves, bark, & sapwood -- it would stand as pure > heartwood. In the same way, Master Gotama's words are divested of branches, > leaves, bark, & sapwood and stand as pure heartwood. > > "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright > what had been overturned, were to reveal what was hidden, were to show the > way to one who was lost, or were to hold up a lamp in the dark so that those > with eyes could see forms, in the same way Master Gotama has -- through many > lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for > refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember > me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, > for life." ))) > > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to different > person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. Let > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in studying > dhamma. You see we are in complete oposition opinion wise, but thanks for making me think about this very carefully, normally I have a tendency to read and forget, period! Amara 3099 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, --- wrote: > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > 'Vakkali' > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > This story shows the different ways that people get > into the 'path' > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > apparent actions. > > regards. > You remember very correctly and have made it easy for me to find the following in Dict of PPN: "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of looking at him, and followed him about. In order to be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to him, 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would not leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly grieved, Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and uttered a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized arahatship.(AA.i.140f) According to the Theragatha Commentary, (ThagA.i.420) when Vakkali was dismissed by the Buddha he lived in Gijjhakuta, practising meditation, but could not attain insight because of his emotional nature (saddha). The Buddha then gave him a special exercise, but neither could he achieve this, and, from lack of food, he suffered from cramp. The Buddha visited him and uttered a verse to encourage him. Vakkali spoke four verses (Thag,vss.350-4)* in reply, and, conjuring up insight, won arahatship. later, in the assembly of the monks, the Buddha declared him foremost among those of implicit faith (saddhadhimuttanam)." Actually there's quite a bit more detail but I think it's rather neat ending with the foremost attribute to link up to our earlier posts! * Just one of these verses: 'Developing the applications of mindfulness, the faculties, and the powers, and developing the constituents of enlightenment, I shall dwell in the growve.' Sarah p.s. Jina, apologies for the lazy Pali spelling in haste! 3100 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:21pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > -----Original Message----- > > I'm looking at Puggalapannatti (Designation of > Human > > Types) (PTS, p.38 Division by Two). > > Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) > where this > sutta resides? ---------------------------------------------------- Sorry, this was a lazy ref. It's chapter 2, verse 20. many thanks for yr interesting comments too and for Num's and Jina's contributions on the Pali side. > > Although I haven't seen this sutta or the > commentaries > myself, the words pubbakari and katannuakatavedi are > conveniently common in the Thai language. Pubbakari > often > refers to your parents or teachers, and the persons > having > katannukatavedi are often children or pupils. I > feel > indebted to my parents and my teachers, and > therefore I can > see how the commentaries give such a comment. > However, > coming from the point of Pubbakari thinking that > debts > should be paid to him is harder. I often see my > parents and > teachers give without obvious reasons except for the > benefits of me: I can't see how they are getting any > (immediate) thing out of it, or that they are > expecting that > they will get any (non-immediate) thing out of it. > > Surely, there are examples of persons being > pubbakari or > having katannuakatavedi without feeling that they > are due, > or that they are indebted, because that implies > attachment > to self. For example, Buddha is Pubbakari like no > other > Pubbakari. I certainly don't understand how he > could have > thought he was either the giver or the person whose > debt > would become due. Sariputta always showed respect > to > Assachi out of his katannuakatavedi wherever he was. > However, I don't understand how he could have > thought of > himself as the receiver, nor the person who is > indebted. > > kom > 3101 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 4:51pm Subject: conditioned decisions Dear Bruce, Yes, yes, yes...You've got it! You'll certainly remember these couple of months as the ones you learnt to live in the world of no choice and no smoke!! You won't believe how much easier life becomes....those light bulbs will be shining right, left and centre! --- bruce wrote: > ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as > possible. > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take > a left > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > but we choose one or the other according to > conditions. > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > determined by previous conditions, > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > and not just thinking about this > but really seeing and knowing it > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > is what breaks the chain... > > **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** Dear Friends, This correspondence has reminded me of a helpful letter from Jonothan to Ann in January, 1976. She shared it with me at the time. Jon & Ann, I hope you don't mind it being repeated here without notice! You may be a little surprised! '......I got the impression you may be worried about making the right decision, or doing the right thing. In fact, of course, there is no 'right' decision or thing to do, nor in any absolute sense is there a 'better' decision or thing to do. Decisions are made according to our accumulations. We can, however, appreciate the importance of having kusala citta at any moment and of developing sati at any moment. Worry is akusala, so is fear, regret and all shades of uncertainty and unease. No doubt you have in mind that you would like to be sure that what you do will be the best for your study and practice of Dhamma (as well as suiting/satisfying other less noble purposes). But how do you know what circumstances may eventuate? How can you make that situation happen? We cannot foresee the long-term course of events that our past kamma will condition as result. In fact we cannot even know the more immediate plans that our kamma has for us. In ignorance we wonder about what will be the result if...? Not realizing that next month's or next year's vipaka is the result of action already performed, not the result of today's decisions. We forget the importance of developing understanding of the realities of the present moment. How valuable it is to have just a moment of sati, to see just for a momet a little more clearly one of the realities of this moment. Do you remember the sutta when the Buddha talks about a fingersnap o awareness? We spend a lot of time wondering about what we should be doing, or thinking about what we would like to do, or worrying about what we are not doing, but we have no understanding of what is actually happening at the present moment....seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and a lot of mind-door activity. The decisions we make are just another moment of thinking, conditioned by our accumulations to do many other things too. Then we may act, but this is quite another moment, with a different moment of intention, and different realities appearing.' (end quote) Best wishes, Sarah 3102 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Thank you very much for sharing so much with us all. it's interesting and helpful (and honest) and I may refer back, but I've just used up my time on the last 2 posts for now. Please think of us as a group of friends and then it won't feel so wierd! That goes for anyone else who is new here as well. > I am kind of skeptical and > reluctant to accept any > doctrines before thinking carefully about it. I > totally agree with you > though that reality is here and now but it's hard > for me who cling to the > idea that this is the world or this is self. > Pls be as skeptical and questioning as you like and find helpful. You are exactly right when you say it's hard when there's clinging to the idea of self. It's the same for us all. Let's continue to try and help each other. Sarah p.s. I was trained as a psychologist and also shared/share some of your areas of interest....hence the questions perhaps! 3103 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, --- wrote: > > > I have to decline your statement this time. I am considered > myself as a > beginner. Dhamma is very deep and bottomless to me. I felt > like, as someone > mentioned in the mail earlier, I am only a frog happened to > hear the Buddha > discourse. And at times all I can say is "this stuff is > good". Very modest- good to see. The Dhamma is so deep if we can glimpse even a little we should be very happy I think. > > > . I always ask myself what exactly > I see or why > this happens. When I saw a stroke patient who cannot walk or > talk, I always > wonder why. I wonder how man communicate. When I suffer, I > ask why. To me > phenomenon has conditions and causes as factors. When I am > happy, I ask why > as well. Yes it is all by conditions. I still enjoy earthly pleasure. I play tennis like > a crazy. You might appreciate a thread we had some months back about going to karaoke. (you could find it by the search engine in the archives ) Some laypeople live very simple lives, others still enjoy the five strands of sense pleasure. Both can develop wisdom. (I am one of the latter types). Thanks for the personal details. This group is going from strength to strength; looking forward to all your comments. Robert p.s. I'm an English teacher in Japan.b > > 3104 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Thanks, Gayan, This is at SN22.87--I couldn't find it in English on the web. I'm not sure that this is the same guy who followed the Buddha around because he liked looking at him. Regards, Sir, mike --- wrote: > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > 'Vakkali' > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > This story shows the different ways that people get > into the 'path' > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > apparent actions. > > regards. > > > 3105 From: m. nease Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 9:40pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Sarah, Gayan and Jina, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, > > --- wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > 'Vakkali' > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > This story shows the different ways that people > get > > into the 'path' > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > apparent actions. > > > > regards. > > > You remember very correctly and have made it easy > for > me to find the following in Dict of PPN: > > "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of > Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. > After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of > looking at him, and followed him about. In order to > be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his > time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating > the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to > him, > 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees > the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam > passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam > passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would > not > leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, > the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly > grieved, > Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The > Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and > uttered > a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: > 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the > air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized > arahatship.(AA.i.140f) This obviously IS the same guy, contrary to my earlier post. There are some interesting differences in the ending above from that at SN22.87 (he 'used the knife'). mike > According to the Theragatha Commentary, > (ThagA.i.420) > when Vakkali was dismissed by the Buddha he lived in > Gijjhakuta, practising meditation, but could not > attain insight because of his emotional nature > (saddha). The Buddha then gave him a special > exercise, > but neither could he achieve this, and, from lack of > food, he suffered from cramp. The Buddha visited > him > and uttered a verse to encourage him. Vakkali spoke > four verses (Thag,vss.350-4)* in reply, and, > conjuring > up insight, won arahatship. later, in the assembly > of > the monks, the Buddha declared him foremost among > those of implicit faith (saddhadhimuttanam)." > > Actually there's quite a bit more detail but I think > it's rather neat ending with the foremost attribute > to > link up to our earlier posts! > > * Just one of these verses: > 'Developing the applications of mindfulness, the > faculties, and the powers, and developing the > constituents of enlightenment, I shall dwell in the > growve.' > > Sarah > > p.s. Jina, apologies for the lazy Pali spelling in > haste! > > > > 3106 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Mike, I think the Vakkali who cut his own throat was a different one from the one who loved the Buddha so much. Both attained arahantship. I think the PTS translators of some texts also confuse the two. The one who killed himself also became arahant. He went through all the stages of vipassana and the different levels of enlightenment after he cut but before he died. If I am not completely confused I think the Buddha loving one was also bent on suicide (by jumping off vuluture peak)- but when he saw the Buddhas image became arahant. He didn't complete the suicide. Robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, Gayan and Jina, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > Dear Gayan, Jina & friends, > > > > --- wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > > 'Vakkali' > > > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > > This story shows the different ways that people > > get > > > into the 'path' > > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > > apparent actions. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > You remember very correctly and have made it easy > > for > > me to find the following in Dict of PPN: > > > > "VIKKALI THERA - He belonged to a brahmin family of > > Savatthi and became proficient in the three Vedas. > > After he once saw the Buddha he could never tire of > > looking at him, and followed him about. In order to > > be closer to him he became a monk, and spent all his > > time, apart from meals and bathing, in contemplating > > the Buddha's person. One day the Buddha said to > > him, > > 'The sight of my foul body is useless; he who sees > > the Dhamma, he it is that seeth me' (yo kho dhammam > > passati so mam passati; yo mam passati so dhammam > > passati).(Itv.sec.92) But even then Vakkali would > > not > > leave the Buddha till, on the last day of the rains, > > the Buddha commanded him to depart. Greatly > > grieved, > > Vakkali sought the precipices of Gijjhakuta. The > > Buddha, aware of this, appeared before him and > > uttered > > a stanza; then stretching out his hand, he said: > > 'Come, monk.' Filled with joy, Vakkali rose in the > > air pondering on the Buddha's words and realized > > arahatship.(AA.i.140f) > 3107 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I might be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha which means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we should understand. Robert --- wrote: > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. > > I would be interested in your comments. > > antony > > 3108 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 10:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Just a little more. There was also a channa who killed himself by knife and attained arahantship before death. Not the same channa who was once prince siddhattas chariot driver. That is if I've got any of this right- I'm not good with names. Robert --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Mike, > I think the Vakkali who cut his own throat was a different one > from the one who loved the Buddha so much. Both attained > arahantship. I think the PTS translators of some texts also > confuse the two. The one who killed himself also became > arahant. > He went through all the stages of vipassana and the different > levels of enlightenment after he cut but before he died. > > If I am not completely confused I think the Buddha loving one > was also bent on suicide (by jumping off vuluture peak)- but > when he saw the Buddhas image became arahant. He didn't > complete > the suicide. > Robert > --- 3109 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Nirodha is extinction. Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which are reached via jhana. The extinction of feeling and perception is Nirodha-samaapatti. There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit detail concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha (suffering). Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I might be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha which means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we should understand. Robert --- wrote: > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > don't > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > dimensions to > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > into the > limitations of English. > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > Rodha, Ni > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > embankment. > > I would be interested in your comments. > > antony > > 3110 From: bruce Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditioned decisions no choice and no smoke: there is no real choosing not to smoke, or rather, there is no chooser so it's not me that's doing this seeming choosing to not smoke: LOL! thanks sarah! At 16:51 2001/01/31 +0800, you wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > Yes, yes, yes...You've got it! > > You'll certainly remember these couple of months as > the ones you learnt to live in the world of no choice > and no smoke!! You won't believe how much easier life > becomes....those light bulbs will be shining right, > left and centre! > > --- bruce wrote: > > > ok -- lemme get this straight in as few words as > > possible. > > > > we can't make any choices; we may think: i can take > > a left > > or a right here at this fork in the road.... > > > > but we choose one or the other according to > > conditions. > > > > the choosing itself is determined by conditions.... > > > > (i have to state this simply -- though i know > > the relationships are rather a bit more complicated) > > > > > > ....and these conditions were themselves > > determined by previous conditions, > > in a chain that just keeps going back.... > > > > and not just thinking about this > > but really seeing and knowing it > > -- real, non-conceptual insight-- > > is what breaks the chain... > > > > **bing!! light bulbs and piti!!!** > > > Dear Friends, > > This correspondence has reminded me of a helpful > letter from Jonothan to Ann in January, 1976. She > shared it with me at the time. Jon & Ann, I hope you > don't mind it being repeated here without notice! You > may be a little surprised! > > '......I got the impression you may be worried about > making the right decision, or doing the right thing. > In fact, of course, there is no 'right' decision or > thing to do, nor in any absolute sense is there a > 'better' decision or thing to do. Decisions are made > according to our accumulations. We can, however, > appreciate the importance of having kusala citta at > any moment and of developing sati at any moment. > Worry is akusala, so is fear, regret and all shades of > uncertainty and unease. > > No doubt you have in mind that you would like to be > sure that what you do will be the best for your study > and practice of Dhamma (as well as suiting/satisfying > other less noble purposes). But how do you know what > circumstances may eventuate? How can you make that > situation happen? We cannot foresee the long-term > course of events that our past kamma will condition as > result. > > In fact we cannot even know the more immediate plans > that our kamma has for us. In ignorance we wonder > about what will be the result if...? Not realizing > that next month's or next year's vipaka is the result > of action already performed, not the result of today's > decisions. We forget the importance of developing > understanding of the realities of the present moment. > How valuable it is to have just a moment of sati, to > see just for a momet a little more clearly one of the > realities of this moment. > > Do you remember the sutta when the Buddha talks about > a fingersnap o awareness? We spend a lot of time > wondering about what we should be doing, or thinking > about what we would like to do, or worrying about what > we are not doing, but we have no understanding of what > is actually happening at the present moment....seeing, > hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and a lot of > mind-door activity. > > The decisions we make are just another moment of > thinking, conditioned by our accumulations to do many > other things too. Then we may act, but this is quite > another moment, with a different moment of intention, > and different realities appearing.' (end quote) > > Best wishes, > Sarah > 3111 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Venerable, It helps alright! You are our first Theravada Bhikkhu so it is an auspicious occasion. I am honoured to be the first to welcome you. Kind regards Robert --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Nirodha is extinction. > > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which > are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is > Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very > explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha > (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert Kirkpatrick > > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 7:58 PM > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha > > > Dear Antony, > Welcome to the group. Amara mentioned nirodha-samapatti. I > might > be mistaken but I think there are other types of nirodho too. > One (just from memory-unreliable) could be tadanga-nirodha > which > means substituition of opposite or temporary cessation. This > occurs at the moments when the stream of akusala is briefly > interrupted such as moments of satipatthana. I figure Jim will > know a good deal about this. A very common word and one we > should understand. > Robert > --- wrote: > > I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > > > does anyone have any information on the background of the > term > > > > I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I > > don't > > disagree with that at all, I know that there are other > > dimensions to > > the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated > > into the > > limitations of English. > > > > I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and > > Rodha, Ni > > meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something > like > > embankment. > > > > I would be interested in your comments. > > > > antony > > 3112 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Num - Thanks so much for this. As I understand it, the Diamond Sutra is one of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, indeed, not far from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that such sutras can at least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. David Kalupahana, a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his admiration of such sutras. BTW, this is my first post to this group, though I've been a member for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with only reading the erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from being the Buddhist scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I consider membership on this list as constituting a marvelous opportunity for a "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology and concepts. Oh, BTW, the signature line at the very bottom of this post of mine is (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. With metta, Howard In a message dated 1/31/01 12:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Hi khun Amara, > > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little different from > the > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site that I gave > you, > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted by Charles > Patton. > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so you can see > some > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long e-mail, pardon me. > Bear with me, OK. > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, just to > different > person, at different time and space. This is just my personal opinion. > Let > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a destiny. I need a > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. I am totally > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use conscience in > studying > dhamma. > > Appreciate your input. > Anumodhana. > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3113 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:19pm Subject: Off for 3 weeks Hi all, Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my vacation in Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to the net. Thanks for all the input and feedback. I've learned a lot from this group-discussion. Appreciated Num 3114 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 1:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Thank you, Robert. No big deal! Don't make any fuss on my behalf! ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Venerable, It helps alright! You are our first Theravada Bhikkhu so it is an auspicious occasion. I am honoured to be the first to welcome you. Kind regards Robert --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Nirodha is extinction. > > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which > are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is > Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very > explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha > (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > 3115 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 0:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Dear Sarah and Kom, Kom: >> Do you by any chance have the Nikaya (and number) >> where this >> sutta resides? >---------------------------------------------------- Sarah: >Sorry, this was a lazy ref. It's chapter 2, verse 20. > The original sutta is located at AN 2.11.2. (ie. Anguttara Nikaya, nipata 2, vagga 11, sutta 2) The Puggalapa~n~natti is only quoting it. Jim 3116 From: Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Namaskara Venerable, I am glad to see your input. May I express my greeting. Hope we will learn from you more. Aprreciated Num 3117 From: Amara Date: Wed Jan 31, 2001 11:58pm Subject: Re: Nirodha Venerable sir, Welcome to the discussions and thank you for the explanations. I think sometimes nirodha is used to mean nibbana isn't it? As Robert said, it is commonly used. And as he also said, Jim must have more to add, which I look forward to reading also, Amara > Anupubba-nirodha is the 9 successive extinctions, 8 of which are reached via > jhana. > > The extinction of feeling and perception is Nirodha-samaapatti. > > There is Nirodhaanupassanaa. > > There is also Nirodha-samaapatti and it is known, too, as > san~n~aa-vedayita-nirodha. It is temporary. > > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit detail > concerning things like Anaagaami phala and Arahatta-phala. > > Tadanga is temporary or momentary cessation of dukkha (suffering). > Tadanga-pahaana is overcoming by the opposite. > > Hope this helps. > > > 3118 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 2:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Just glad to help and share... Metta to you and all the Friends of the Dhamma here, Num! Maha Metta, Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 11:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Namaskara Venerable, I am glad to see your input. May I express my greeting. Hope we will learn from you more. Aprreciated Num 3119 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 3:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Howard, Good to see you here. Welcome to a discussion. > > < of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, indeed, not far > from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that such sutras can > at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. David > Kalupahana, > a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his admiration > of > such sutras.>> This is my personal opinion, OK. Theravada or Mahayana is just a term or you can call pannatti. Dhamma is dhamma, no matter what the name we call does not change it. Dhamma in itself is the thing the Buddha said that he showed and opened to us and left it as our teacher or guidance. As I said earlier for me, tipitaka is a very important map but not the destination. Right understanding, sammadhiti or panna is the thing that will lead us to the right path, sammamakka. I have limited knowledge about Mahayana and I don't think I can give a comment on the difference between the two. Idea, different view and schism are everywhere even in Theravada. > < for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with only reading the > erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from being the > Buddhist > scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I consider > membership on this list as constituting a marvelous opportunity for a > "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology and concepts.> > > Only person who has nothing more to learn is an arahat. To me good friend (kalayanamitra) as well as sammadhiti is very essential for the right path. So I hope that we can help each other. I learn from you as well. Don't be a hidden treasure. BTW, let me say that at time, no pain, no gain. Don't be afraid of the pain. Well, know yourself and I hope you find your own pace. > < (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. /Thus is how > ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, > a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a > dream./ >> Thanks for an uplifting ending. Hope seeing you again. Num 3120 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Antony, I take it that your query on the term 'nirodha' has something to do with an interest in its etymology especially when I see that you divide the word up into NI + RODHA. I'm not too familiar with the word myself so I have to search about for some commentarial explanation. I have found a good starting point for exploring this word with some useful information provided in the Visuddhimagga (XVI.18) in reference to the term as used in the third noble truth: dukkha-nirodha. In this passage we learn that NI has the sense of 'absence' (abhaava). In a traditional grammar like the Saddaniiti, there is a section on the prefixes (upasagga-s) that gives the various senses of each prefix. For NI we find that 'abhaava' is listed as one of the 14 meanings given there. RODH is derived from the verbal root RUDH. The Dhaatumaala (Garland of Roots -- one of the three major sections of the Saddaniiti) gives its meaning as: 'aavara.na' which does not exactly have a clear meaning for me. The PED gives the meaning of aavara.na as: hindrance, obstruction which might do for now. RUDH becomes RODH by way of the addition of the primary affix 'a' (gha~n) which changes the root vowel U into O through strengthening (gu.na). RUDH + A > RODHA. For the word RODHA the PED gives: obstruction, stopping. In the next entry for the same word there is given: bank, dam -- which one can see is connected to the first entry in meaning and could very well have been included in the first entry. The passage at Vism XVI.18 defines RODHA as 'caaraka'. ~Naa.namoli translates RODHA as 'constraint' and 'caaraka' as 'prison'. In checking with Apte's Sanskrit Dictionary, "bondage, fetter" could also be considered for 'caaraka'. I'm not sure what word would best fit with 'absence of' and I'm only thinking of something like 'absence of obstruction' for now. Ths same passage also gives an alternative meaning for 'nirodha' as 'anuppaada' -- non-arising. So now there is more to go on for further study. I hope you find these notes useful in your worthwhile investigation of the term 'nirodha'. Best wishes, Jim A. -----Original Message----- From: <> Date: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 8:46 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha >I am interested in this term: Nirodha > >does anyone have any information on the background of the term > >I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't >disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to >the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the >limitations of English. > >I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni >meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like >embankment. > >I would be interested in your comments. > >antony 3121 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Howard, Very pleasant to see you here. On d-l I don't always have time to check all entries so one of my strategies is to read your well-reasoned posts and if they indicate a worthwhile topic I read the others. Robert --- wrote: > Hi, Num - > > Thanks so much for this. As I understand it, the > Diamond Sutra is one > of the earliest of the "wisdom" sutras of Mahayana, and is, > indeed, not far > from the root of the Buddhist tree. I personally find that > such sutras can at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > David Kalupahana, > a respected Buddhist scholar and Theravadin, has expressed his > admiration of > such sutras. > BTW, this is my first post to this group, though I've > been a member > for a while. For the most part, I will content myself with > only reading the > erudite posts on the list, inasmuch as I am very far from > being the Buddhist > scholar that most of the posters are. Among other things, I > consider > membership on this list as constituting a marvelous > opportunity for a > "painless", gradual acquaintance with abhidhammic terminology > and concepts. > Oh, BTW, the signature line at the very bottom of this > post of mine is > (a poetic paraphrase of) a part of the Diamond-Cutter Sutra. > > With metta, > Howard > > > In a message dated 1/31/01 12:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > writes: > > > > Hi khun Amara, > > > > The Diamond sutra that I just have read is actually little > different from > > the > > plumvillage version. I downoaded the 2nd one from the site > that I gave > > you, > > but the one that I downloaded is a pdf format, transtalted > by Charles > > Patton. > > I am going to paste the pdf version next to your paste, so > you can see > > some > > differrences. Well, this will turn into a very long > e-mail, pardon me. > > Bear with me, OK. > > space> > > > > > > > > Well, to me these two suttas are telling me the same thing, > just to > > different > > person, at different time and space. This is just my > personal opinion. > > Let > > me give an analogy, to me Tipitaka is like a map not a > destiny. I need a > > boat to cross the river but the destiny is at the other end. > I am totally > > agree that we should be analytical, skeptical and use > conscience in > > studying > > dhamma. > > > > Appreciate your input. > > Anumodhana. > > > > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 3122 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:04am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Off for 3 weeks Central America? I always wanted to visit there. best wishes for your vacation. I'm planning an internet vacation (another one) myself starting from tommorow for the next few weeks - will post an occasional note when I have time. Robert --- wrote: > Hi all, > > Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my > vacation in > Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to > the net. > > Thanks for all the input and feedback. I've learned a lot > from this > group-discussion. > > Appreciated > > Num > 3123 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:41am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? hello Gayan and Mike, From what I can tell, it was Vakkali that I was thinking. The despondency when the Buddha told him to leave, the meditating at the edge of the precipice, all that was part of what I heard when told the story. This seems to be from the Apadana account, Ap.ii.465, and from Itv. 92. I see there is also another account in which Vakkali stabs himself to death (but reaching arahathood just before the lights go out), SN.iii.119. thanks for the name. jinavamsa ======== --- "m. nease" wrote: > Thanks, Gayan, > > This is at SN22.87--I couldn't find it in English on > the web. I'm not sure that this is the same guy who > followed the Buddha around because he liked looking at > him. > > Regards, Sir, > > mike > > --- <> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Jinawamsa, > > > > > > If I remember correctly the name of the monk is > > 'Vakkali' > > > > later Vakkali becomes an arahant. > > This story shows the different ways that people get > > into the 'path' > > and ( for us ) not to judge anyone by his/her > > apparent actions. > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > 3124 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 4:47am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Hi Jim, Could you give me the names of books that you use as reference, esp. the root one? Is it a dictionary? I might try to check from my university library when I come back. Thanks Num 3125 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:30am Subject: Re: Nirodha Dear Bikkhu > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit I have yet to come across this book. It is a work of Buddhaghosa isn't it? Are you aware of it being on-line anywhere, or at least the portions you mention being worthwhile lloking at in relation to Nirodha Dear All Thanks everyone for your responses I do not debate that Nirodha is taken to mean extinction. Look in any useful dictionary and see that like all words there are other dimensions to the understanding of the term Nirodha. For example there is Nirvana sometimes translated as Unbinding. Which for me deepens it's meaning without twisting it into something else. My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term Nirvana where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of describing qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these terms they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of the Vedic tradition at the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that flame was produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. Nirodha also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was imparting to them in using this term. 3126 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Thanks, Robert! :-) With metta, Howard > Dear Howard, > Very pleasant to see you here. On d-l I don't always have time > to check all entries so one of my strategies is to read your > well-reasoned posts and if they indicate a worthwhile topic I > read the others. > > Robert > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3127 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 11:05am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I personally find that such sutras can at > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. Dear Howard, Welcome to the discussions, it's good to hear from more members of the group! If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. I have come to feel that the more different opinions I see the more I appreciate the Buddha's wisdom or at least my own view of the Dhamma. Looking forward to hearing from you more often, Amara 3128 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: Off for 3 weeks > Just let you guys know that I will be off for 3 weeks for my vacation in > Central America. I'll try to keep up if I have an access to the net. Dear Num, Bon voyage and have a great time!!! I do hope you have some time and opportunity to check in on us also, I really enjoyed our exchanges. As the saying goes, that which does not kill you..., well I think that that which does not convince me, makes me more steadfast in my beliefs, so I do love oppositions for their own sakes. I mean to say that when I say we are completely opposed opinion wise I rather appreciate it, for me it leads to stimulating discussions and sometimes clearer understanding. Another reason for me to really appreciate this group and all its members, Looking forward to hearing more from you, Amara 3129 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:22am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Foremost analyst Hi all, I just have time to check my thai Tipitaka CDrom. I found Ektatakapali verse. There are about 50 names of bikku, bikkuni, layman and laywoman who are the best in different fields. This is the location from my CDrom ref, Suttantapitaka boook 12, Anggutaranikaya vagga 146 page 28. Eka-tuka-tikanibata. Num 3130 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi again, I also found 2 Vakkali thera mentioned in Tipitaka. The first one who was fond of the Buddha. He became a monk when he was 7y/o. It was mentioned that he was born in Patumatara Buddha as well. He didn't kill himself but he ran down from the kijhakuta peak to see the Buddha and was enlighted on the way down. This is from suttantapitaka book 25, kuttakanikaya. vagga 122, page 122. The second one who attempted suicide when he was quiet old. This one is in suttantapitaka book 9, sangyuttanikaya, vagga 219 page 119. He became arahat and did not complete suicide. That's from Thai CDROM. I don't know, is this helpful or just satisfied my curiosity. Num 3131 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 0:52pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > I don't know, is this helpful or just satisfied my curiosity. Dear Num, Very helpful, so maybe both? The citta is a very intricate thing that only the person could rally know, isn't it. By the way, on ambiguity, Gayan introduced us to the vancaka dhamma, (38 kinds of 'disguised citta') which might interest you. I think you might search our archives for them, and I am preparing to put the list and its translation in the website also. . Will notify the group when done, as usual, Amara 3132 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, I'm not sure if I'll catch you before you leave, but if not, perhaps you'd like a little more discussion on bhavarupa as I wasn't quite happy with my earlier response as you may have been looking for more detail as well. I'm checking more information in 'The Physical Phenomena in and Around Ourselves' by Nina Van Gorkom and I'm going to be quoting from this. (Pls note I have an old manuscipt edition which may now be updated or printed or on the web, I'm not sure.) I know you are familiar with most of this information, but I'm also quoting some of the introduction for others who've never heard of bhavarupa. "....There are 28 kinds of rupa in all. Rupas are not merely textbook terms, they are realities which can be experienced. Not everybody can experience all kinds of rupa, it depends on one's accumulations which realities can be experienced. However, learning about all kinds of realities is helpful in order to understand more clearly that what we take for 'self' consists of many different elements which do not stay....." "...The objects which can be experienced through the sense-doors and also the senses (pasada rupas) are gross rupas, the other rupas are subtle rupas. The pasada rupas are produced solely by kamma. There are also subtle rupas which are produced soley by kamma. They are: the woman faculty, the man-faculty, the life-faculty and the heart-base. As to the woman-faculty (itthindriyam) and the man-faculty (purisindriyam), which are collectively called bhavarupa or sex, these are rupas produced by kamma from the first moment of life and throughout life. Thus, it is due to kamma whether one is born as a male or as a female. The 'Atthasalini (II, Book II, Ch III, 322) explains that birth as a human being is kusala vipaka, but since good deeds have different degrees also their results have different degrees. Birth as a female is the result of kusala kamma which is of a lesser degree than the kusala kamma which conditions birth as a male...." "The 'Atthasalaini' (II, Boo II, ChIII,322) gives the following definitions of the female faculty and the male faculty: 'Of these two controlling faculties the feminine has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of a woman, the function of showing 'this is a woman', the manifestation which is the cause of femininity in feature, mark, occupation, deportment. The masculine controllign faculty has the characteristic of (knowing) the state of a man, the function of showing 'this is a man', the manifestation which is the cause of masculinity in feature, etc. (note: See also Dhammasangani par.633,634 and Vis. X1V, 58) These two faculties which are coextensive with the whole body (Vis X1V,58) are not known by visual cognition but only by mind-cognition. But, the Atthasalani (321) states, their characteristic features etc., which are conditioned by their respective faculties, are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition. Seeing experiences only visible object, it does not know 'This is a woman' or 'This is a man'. The citta which recognizes feminine or masculine features does so through the mind-door, but this recognizing is conditioned by seeing. When the commentary states that these characteristic features are known by visual cognition as well as by mind-cognition, it does not speak in detail about the different processes of cittas which experience objects through the eye-door and through the mind-door...." (end quote) There's plenty more, but this may add a little more to your consideration and at least give you a few references to follow up on your return to St Louis. Best regards and have a good trip! Sarah 3133 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:34pm Subject: Another 'Word' Dear friends, We have just finished uploading 'Satipatthana', an excerpt from the transcript of a dhamma discussion in Cambodia, in the section 'A Few Words' in , and would appreciate any comments on or off list, Thank you in advance, Amara 3134 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 5:39pm Subject: Welcomes Dear Antony, Ven Dhammapiyo and Howard, I'd just like to add another welcome to the ones you've already received. We all hope you find the list useful and enjoyable. I'm very glad to see your comments and look forward to plenty more. If you would care to share any more details about your background/interest in dhamma, we'd all be glad to hear. Best wishes, Sarah 3135 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha --- wrote: > My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term Nirvana where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of describing qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these terms they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of the Vedic tradition at the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that flame was produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. Nirodha also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was imparting to them in using this term.>>>>>>> Dear Antony, The metaphor of fire is a very good one to help us of today-not just those ancient ones- understand nibbana. There are only 4 types of paramattha dhamma (Fundamental elements ). These are citta cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The first three can be classified in different ways- such as the khandas- aggregates, dhatus- elements, ayatanas-sensefields, Or as simply nama and rupa. These fundamental phenomena are in us and around us- there is nothing else. They arise and pass away so fast that we have the illusion that "we' exist, that there are things that last such as cars and computers. This is a deep perversion of perception that is so hard to overcome. To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). Robert 3136 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha robert: this is the most succinct restatement of paticcasamupada i think i've ever read, re: > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). it's suddenly so obvious: it's the craving after nama and rupa which conditions their arising. cut the craving after nama and rupa, cut ignorance of why they are not worth craving... **and they don't arise** **bing!!** many thanks! bruce 3137 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:57pm Subject: conditions for satipatthana Dear Kom, Kom- I think you could answer at least as well as me. But here are some brief thoughts anyway. The firm and right understanding is the most essential element; it takes time to develop it. However, remember the virtuos circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual understanding supports direct awareness but direct awareness helps the conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it would be very hard to have firm understanding of anatta if there had never been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct understanding grow together- and other faculties such as saddha, confidence also become powerful. There are also the paramis. These are very much linked to right understanding though. Take khanti(patience parami): when there is regular, profound contemplation of the khandas one is able to accept anything with patience. One sees that the stories of monks of old who were patient (with awareness )while being murdered was not just legend. One knows that one could endure anything too when panna and sati are present. Correspondingly one sees that whenever one is upset or worried that this is because there is no understanding of the conditioned nature of dhammas, that one is lost in a world of concept. This is very clear. (But one doesn't expect there to be always awareness- or even right thinking- because it should be known that this is conditioned- it can't be conjured up) Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes and bad sometimes (just like now). The difference: it was all self. robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert et Al, > > Are their any other conditions for Satipatthana to arise > besides the firm and right understandings of dhamma? > > kom > 3138 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:00pm Subject: movies (bruce) Hi Bruce, Thanks for your wonderful posts. I always enjoy reading your questions and hear your insights. As you implied in one of your posts, indulgence in movies is almost invariably rooted in lobha. Because the sensory stimulation is so intense, it is very difficult to cultivate samma-sati while watching a movie (even though it is theoretically possible). This is why abstaining from watching shows is included in the eight precepts. I look at the eight precepts as training guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be of enormous help in walking on the path. As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a vibrant and vigorous lobha. On the other hand, some wise person said (paraphrase to the best of memory): "Arahants don't keep precepts; Arahants don't break precepts," meaning that as wisdom increases, keeping the precepts is effortless. But keeping precepts such as abstaining from movies is difficult for the lay follower--so difficult, in fact, that to succeed one risks cultivating intense dosa for fear of temporarily cultivating lobha. Thus, when wisdom is developed to the point where the desire for watching shows becomes weaker and weaker, it is a wondrous thing. However, such wisdom cannot be forced. It only comes gradually, but it begins by intellectually recognizing the dangers of indulging sensual pleasures. (cf. Brahmajala Sutta, Samańńaphala Sutta) Dan 3139 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:30pm Subject: Conditions for pańńa Dear Bruce, Robert, Although pańńa does arise from listening to the Dhamma and thinking about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of sutamayapańńa (wisdom via hearing) or cintamayapańńa (wisdom via thinking). In the Vibhanga (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: "sabbapi samapannassa pańńa bhavanamaya pańńa" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by means of development). "Development" (bhavana), as we are constantly reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. And many special words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not delay, or you will regret it later." 3140 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: Conditions for pańńa - <> wrote: > Dear Bruce, Robert, " (bhavana), as we are constantly > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive > physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, > restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome > from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. >>> dear dan, Who is practicing? Robert 3141 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 9:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. The book is expensive in my opinion. It has just started to be posted in sections by a member of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114015113213038031217181186219249165026144204051183019182055105236158076086020224 I am not sure that they have gotten to the portion you might be interested in. Hope this helps. Metta to you! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 6:00 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha Dear Bikkhu > Check out Visuddhi Magga XXIII, as this gets into very explicit I have yet to come across this book. It is a work of Buddhaghosa isn't it? Are you aware of it being on-line anywhere, or at least the portions you mention being worthwhile lloking at in relation to Nirodha 3142 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Conditions for pańńa Dear Dan, You know when I first got into Buddhism I strove unrelentingly. It was clear that this was THE truth. I quickly saw the danger in craving. So, what did I do? Tried to stop it,avoided stimulating sense contacts, put in lots of effort. What this did was increase the sense of self. Happy when I could control(i.e. when avijja was controlling). Sad when "I"couldn't. I thought one had to be calm and concentrated before wisdom could arise. Couldn't see that it was just clinging to concept. Those were hard times; I was so set on this idea that life got more and more difficult. It was simply additional craving. Eventually, against the advice of some teachers, I studied Abhidhamma. And so my old way of viewing the world has been gradually overturned. I think there is not much change outwardly. I still like the same things; still hate cleaning my house; still scratch and fart; want my children to do well. I see more and more just how selfish I am - much more than I had ever thought. But this is good to know. You wrote earlier ">>I look at the eight precepts as training guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be of enormous help in walking on the path. As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a vibrant and vigorous lobha.>>>>" "As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives the desire to watch movies" Sure, even non-buddhists know that they go to the movies because of desire. "and the mind recoils from the thought of going" Is this recoil with dosa(aversion). Or is it with a subtle idea of control? Who has no more desire for sense objects? only anagami and arahant. It may be useful to avoid movies; or it may increase the sense of a self who can control. People can do anything with miccha-ditthi. I was looking at a photo of a yogi in India who for the past 20 odd years has held his right arm up in the air. It is withered and misshapen. The finger nails are all entwined in the hand. It must be so painful and yet he can endure this much . He doesn't go to movies but is there any wisdom? In the Buddhas time there were laypeople who took up the eight precepts- but mostly(unless they were anagami) only on certain days of the week. Some of course did observe continually. And for those who did it wisely it was very helpful. I know some of Khun Sujin's students now who also keep the eight precepts. Everyone can see lobha (desire) when it is strong. But it is taken as my lobha. However, when lobha is seen with the eye of wisdom it is not taken for self. This is the section in the satipatthana sutta called “mind-objects”. The difference is subtle. Citta(consciousness) in both cases experiences the same object. Sanna, (perception) experiences the same object. But the understanding of it is completely different. It is deeper than just thinking “lobha is not self”. It is some level of direct understanding. No one can tell us exactly how to have this understanding. In fact real understanding arises because one has heard the teachings over many lives. There has been profound contemplation over and over. And so the “soil in which understanding grows” (Vis XIV32)is turned over well. The Visuddhimagga (XIV28) about Wisdom: it is "distinguishable into five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning and prior effort" It notes that achievement is arahantship. "hearing is learning of Dhamma carefully and attentively... Questioning is discussion of knotty points". .."prior effort is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas" You cited the > Majjhima Nikaya: "Meditate now, Ananda, and do > not > delay, or you will regret it later.">>>> Yes, the Buddha gave the roots of trees as dwelling place to monks. And their "job" is to develop the eightfold path wherever they are. Even while they are not living at the roots of trees, even while they are in the toilet or talking to laypeople they are reminded of the urgency of satipatthana. That is there real home. As Nina Van Gorkom wrote to me just yesterday "the difference between a monks life and laylife is like heaven and earth" - if it is followed wisely. Laypeople should see this urgency too. satipatthana can arise even while enjoying oneself. And some types of samattha can be done while one lives a normal life. The Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about recollection of the virtues of the Buddha, and recollection of the Dhamma and several other types of sammattha that: “` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children” In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: “as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerened with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days.” These merchants said they were rather busy as they had children, they enjoyed perfume, fine clothes, gold and silver. They were all sotapanna already (as the Buddha himself notes) but they lived lives of luxury. Thus there is no rule about how to live. But we should not neglect the development of insight in whatever situation we are in. The first step though is to understand anatta so that wrong view of self can be diminished and then eliminated. Eradication of senses desire takes much longer. I had an ideal of what the path should be like. It has turned out differently. I'm not saying follow me; I'm suggesting it is not so easy to make rules about how wisdom develops. There is a refrain from a song by Leonard Cohen (who lives in a a zen temple now): "there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in". Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a serious student. Robert 3143 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 1:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Dear Friends Buddha described nibbana as--> etam santam etam paneetam , yadidam ? sabbasamkharasamatho , sabbupadhipatinissaggo , virago , NIRODHO , nibbanam hope this helps rgds 3144 From: Date: Thu Feb 1, 2001 7:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Amara - In a message dated 1/31/01 11:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > > I personally find that such > sutras can at > > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > > > Dear Howard, > > Welcome to the discussions, it's good to hear from more members of the > group! If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. > I have come to feel that the more different opinions I see the more I > appreciate the Buddha's wisdom or at least my own view of the Dhamma. > > Looking forward to hearing from you more often, > > Amara > ================================ Well, there's not much for me to say in this regard. There is Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of Mahayana seem to me to stray quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other hand, many of the Mahayana sutras, especially early ones, seem to legitimately present Dhamma, but with a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in the Pali suttas. And this slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate certain aspects of the Dhamma in the same way the good commentary will. There are differences in terminology between Theravada and Mahayana that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. But once one finds appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem to fit well with Theravada. For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in Theravada and Mahayana are related, but different. The Mahayana notion of emptiness exists in Theravada, but is different from what Theravada means by emptiness. As I understand it, in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = impersonality (of all dhammas). In Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all dhammas, i.e., lack of independent identity/existence of all (conditioned) dhammas due to their dependently originated status and impermanence. This latter notion, of course also exists very much so in Theravada, though I don't think that it is exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. One possible disconnection: Both Theravada and Mahayana consider nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, Theravada means by this that nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal (being empty of self or anything related to a self) and being empty of all conditions, whereas Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in the same sense as it considers all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as lacking of independent existence. In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and nibbana in some sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3145 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Hi Num, I use many books for reference -- too many to list here. For the verbal roots (dhaatu-s), I have four lists (a Sanskrit one & 3 Pali ones). The titles are: Dhaatupaa.tha (2), Dhaatumaalaa, Dhaatuma~njuusa. If you are interested in getting copies online I can help you with this. Please contact me offlist after you return from your vacation. The roots are not listed alphabetically by initial letters but by final letters eg dhar would be listed with other roots ending in -r. Roots are divided into 7 or more verb classes. These lists are excellent for anyone who takes an interest in Pali/Sanskrit etymology and word formation. Have a pleasant and safe journey. Best wishes, Jim A. >Hi Jim, > >Could you give me the names of books that you use as reference, esp. the root >one? Is it a dictionary? I might try to check from my university library >when I come back. > >Thanks > >Num 3146 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 1:10am Subject: Re: Conditions for pańńa This confluence of five aggregates. But this is a bit wordy, awkward, and cumbersome, so I'll stick with the everyday, conventional, easy alternative "I". Sheesh, I'll even throw away the quotes and say that I practice, you practice, we practice just so the conversation can flow somewhat naturally. > dear dan, > Who is practicing? > Robert 3147 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 7:32am Subject: Re: Conditions for pańńa Dear Pali experts & friends, --- <> wrote: > And many special > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not > delay, or you will regret it later." Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for these last words which it may be useful to discuss. Sara 3148 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:51am Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? > > > I personally find that such > > sutras can at > > > least serve as useful commentary for Theravadin Buddhists. > > If you care to elaborate on the above I would love to hear it. > On the other hand, many of the Mahayana > sutras, especially early ones, seem to legitimately present Dhamma, but with > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in the Pali suttas. And this > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate certain aspects of the Dhamma in > the same way the good commentary will. > There are differences in terminology between Theravada and Mahayana > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. But once one finds > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem to fit well with Theravada. > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in Theravada and Mahayana are > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of emptiness exists in Theravada, > but is different from what Theravada means by emptiness. As I understand it, > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = impersonality (of all dhammas). In > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all dhammas, i.e., lack of > independent identity/existence of all (conditioned) dhammas due to their > dependently originated status and impermanence. This latter notion, of course > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I don't think that it is > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada and Mahayana consider > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, Theravada means by this that > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal (being empty of self or > anything related to a self) and being empty of all conditions, whereas > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in the same sense as it considers > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as lacking of independent existence. > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and nibbana in some sense. Dear Howard, I think our views of a good commentary also differs: to me it should help clarify or elaborate the Tipitaka, although some commentaries do consider points that I would have thought difficult as easy while explaining others in staggering detail(!) But I have yet to find one that counters it on important points like the one above or the suttas/sutras Num mentioned. Negating the difference of the reality of nibbana from all other realities would seem to defeat the purpose of the four ariya sacca and therefore of Buddhism itself. Amara 3149 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:08am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditions for pańńa Dear Sarah, >Dear Pali experts & friends, > >--- <> wrote: > >> And many special >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not >> delay, or you will regret it later." > >Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for these last words >which it may be useful to discuss. "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i 118 (MN 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think there is any with Ananda. Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and vipassanaa". "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195 (there's a bit more just before this) Best wishes, Jim A. 3150 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:42am Subject: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Jim, your contributions are absolutely invaluable to this list. mn --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > >Dear Pali experts & friends, > > > >--- <> wrote: > > > >> And many special > >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of > the last of the > >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > >> delay, or you will regret it later." > > > >Would someone kindly provide me with the Pali for > these last words > >which it may be useful to discuss. > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). > Also found at M i 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think > there is any with > Ananda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as > "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m > hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3151 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:01am Subject: Re: buddhaghosa's book My dear Bhikkhu, thankyou I will have a look at the list. I have read excerpts from this work by Buddhaghosa and many texts refer to the benefit of reading it. It seems there are online versions, or partial versions, in german or dutch (I think). I am a working householder so if I save up I could possibly afford it when I come accross a copy. Sydney, Australia is not such a small town, there must be a copy here somewhere. thanks for your assistance antony --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. > > The book is expensive in my opinion. > > It has just started to be posted in sections by a member of dhamma- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=034176066165146028033082190 > > I am not sure that they have gotten to the portion you might be interested in. > > Hope this helps. > > Metta to you! > ----- Original Message 3152 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: Conditions for pańńa "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He [the Teacher or the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, the fourth requisite condition... "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that -- in their meaning & expression -- proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence [the second jhana]. This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling...Such is perception...Such are fabrications...Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet- unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy life hold him in esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification [of mind]. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 Pańńa Sutta Discernment http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-2.html --- <> wrote: > Dear Bruce, Robert, > Although pańńa does arise from listening to the Dhamma and thinking > about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of sutamayapańńa (wisdom > via hearing) or cintamayapańńa (wisdom via thinking). In the Vibhanga > (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: "sabbapi samapannassa pańńa > bhavanamaya pańńa" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by > means of development). "Development" (bhavana), as we are constantly > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, means a lot of hard work, > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, seeking out conducive > physical conditions for contemplation, restraining the senses, > restraining lust, restraining hatred, practicing replacing the > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing preventing the unwholesome > from arising, practicing, practicing, practicing. And many special > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of the last of the > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, Ananda, and do not > delay, or you will regret it later." 3153 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:24am Subject: Re: Nirodha Not being equipped with the skill myself, could anyone turn that into the english equivilant words. And I may be asking too much here but is NIRODHO grammatically different to NIRODHA. Thanks for the post I won't harp on the subject to much longer I promise. --- <> wrote: > > > > > Dear Friends > > Buddha described nibbana as--> > > etam santam etam paneetam , yadidam ? > sabbasamkharasamatho , sabbupadhipatinissaggo , virago , NIRODHO , nibbanam > > > > > > hope this helps > > rgds 3154 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:46pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Conditions for pańńa Dear Khun Mike, Anumoddhana for your sharing the Pańńa Sutta. Attached is Canki sutta that I believe talks about conditions for Satipatthana. Also attached is the Indriya-bhavana Sutta, the sutta that dhd5 took an excerpt from. Dear dhd5, > Dear Bruce, Robert, > > Although pańńa does arise from listening to the > Dhamma and thinking > > about the Dhamma, this is all at the level of > sutamayapańńa (wisdom > > via hearing) or cintamayapańńa (wisdom via > thinking). I think most of us agree on this. > In the > Vibhanga > > (chapter 16) is the oft-repeated phrase: > "sabbapi samapannassa > pańńa > > bhavanamaya pańńa" (The wisom of one who has > attained is wisdom by > > means of development). "Development" (bhavana), > as we are > constantly > > reminded by Buddha in the Suttas, Again, I think most of us agree that Satipathanna (patipati, the practice) is the only way to reach nibhanna. > means a lot > of hard work, > > formal cultivation of wisdom, meditation, I think this is where some of us don't agree. To reach nibhanna, there must be countless numbers of satipathanna arising to cognize the paramatha dhamma. It is clear that this process is long. It requires chanda, viriya, firm conviction, and panna to reach this. Buddha didn't mention that it is necessary to develop jhana to develop satipatthana. Buddha also didn't mention that to develop satipatthana, one must sit and go through a retreat course. Is there a sutta where Buddha taught Satipatthana to the householders in the way that the "formal" meditation teachers do nowadays? Many householders achieved nibhanna without going through a "formal" meditation. They must develop Satipathanna until they reach nibhanna. Many mentioned in the sutta achieved nibhanna while listening to Buddha, and not while sitting in meditations. > seeking out conducive > > physical conditions for contemplation, He mentioned the middle way for this: neither austere nor indulgent. > restraining the senses, > > restraining lust, restraining hatred, This is through, as Robert has mentioned in the past, Adhisila sikkha. When satipatthana arises to cognize the paramatha dhammas which can be lobha, dosa, and moha, at that moment, there is no akusala and there is panna. When panna becomes more developed, there are more and more moments of panna replacing the akusala dhamma which becomes fewer. > practicing replacing the > > unwholesome with the wholesome, practicing > > from arising, practicing, practicing, > practicing. When panna arises to cognize the akusala, knowing that it is unwholesome, more wholesome cittas arise. While cittas are wholesome, there are no wholesomeness. There is no me who practices, no me who wants the wholesomeness to arise, no me who wants the satipathanna to arise, no me to notice, no me to observe, no me to practice. Satipatthana is sankhara dhamma just like any other sankhara dhamma: there are conditions for it to arise, and therefore it arises. The practicing me will be more of a hindrance than a support for Satipathanna to arise. > And many special > > words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines > of the last of the > > Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > > delay, or you will regret it later." As Jim has mentioned, the commentaries interpret this statement as being both samatthana and vipassana. However, if you read most of this sutta, it mostly mentioned Adhisila sikha and not samatha bhavana. My observations in reading the suttas are that to understand it, we must understand who the buddha is speaking to and in what contexts. Unless explicitly asked about the benefits of being a Bikkhu or a life of a bikkhu or other related things about samana lives, the Buddha doesn't usually mention jhana development to the householders. He would mention jhana development when explicitly asked about the benefits or the live of a bikkhu, or for those who are pre-disposed to becoming a samana or a bikkhu. The following canki sutta mentions the conditions for Satipatthana to arise. It seems to me that sutamaya panna are conditions for cintamaya panna and cintamaya panna are conditions for satipatthana panna. As Roberts has mentioned and implied (to me) in this sutta, these different levels of panna are supporting conditions to one another. Note that the texts in square brackets [] are notes that I made when comparing this with the Thai tipitika (unfortunately, don't know pali). Majjhima Nikaya 95 Canki Sutta With Canki (excerpt) For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- .... Now at that time the Blessed One was sitting & exchanging courtesies & conversation with some very senior brahmins. It so happened that a brahmin student named Kapadika was seated in the assembly: young, shaven-headed, sixteen years old, a master of the Three Vedas with their vocabularies, liturgy, phonology, & etymologies, and the histories as a fifth; skilled in philology & grammar, well-versed in cosmology & the marks of a great man. While the very senior brahmins were conversing with the Blessed One, he kept breaking in & interrupting their talk. So the Blessed One scolded him, "Venerable Bharadvaja, don't break in & interrupt while the very senior brahmins are conversing. Wait until they are finished talking." When this was said, the brahmin Canki said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, don't scold the brahmin student Kapadika. He is a clansman, learned, wise, with good delivery. He is capable of taking part in this discussion with Master Gotama." Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, "Yes, this brahmin student Kapadika must be accomplished in the texts of the Three Vedas, inasmuch as the brahmins honor him so." Then the thought occurred to Kapadika, "When Gotama the contemplative meets my gaze with his, I will ask him a question." And so the Blessed One, encompassing Kapadika's awareness with his awareness, met his gaze. Kapadika thought, "Gotama the contemplative has turned to me. Suppose I ask him a question." So he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, with regard to the ancient hymns of the brahmins -- passed down through oral transmission & included in their canon -- the brahmins have come to the definite conclusion that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless." What does Master Gotama have to say to this?" "Tell me, Bharadvaja, is there among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And has there been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns -- those ancient hymns, sung, repeated, & collected, which brahmins at present still sing, still chant, repeating what was said, repeating what was spoken -- i.e., Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa & Bhagu: was there even one of these who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "So then, Bharadvaja, it seems that there isn't among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns ... even one who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmins turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?" "It's not only out of conviction, Master Gotama, that the brahmins honor this. They also honor it as unbroken tradition." "Bharadvaja, first you went by conviction. Now you speak of unbroken tradition. There are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked ... truly an unbroken tradition ... well-reasoned ... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless." "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something ... holds an unbroken tradition ... has something reasoned through analogy ... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. We regard this as the safeguarding of the truth. But to what extent is there an awakening to the truth? To what extent does one awaken to the truth? We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth." "There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities -- qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion .... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded. When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction [saddha] in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas [wisdom via hearing]. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas [paramatha dhamma becomes appropriate subjects for contemplation]. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire [chanda] arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing [Viriya]. Willing, he contemplates [compares] (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion [viriya and samadhi]. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment [satipattthana panna, patipati, the practice]. "To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth. "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth." "The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities [the supporting factors for developing satipatthana]: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth." "Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. We regard this as the final attainment of the truth. But what quality is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "Exertion [viriya in cognizing paramatha dhamma] is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth." "But what quality is most helpful for exertion? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for exertion." "Contemplating [compares] is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion." "But what quality is most helpful for contemplating? ..." "Being willing [viriya] .... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate ...." "But what quality is most helpful for being willing? ..." "Desire [chanda] .... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing ...." "But what quality is most helpful for desire? ..." [dhamma appropriate for contemplation] "Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas .... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise ...." "But what quality is most helpful for coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas? ..." "Penetrating the meaning [panna through hearing].... If one didn't penetrate the meaning, one wouldn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas ...." "But what quality is most helpful for penetrating the meaning? ...." "Remembering the Dhamma .... If one didn't remember the Dhamma, one wouldn't penetrate the meaning ...." "But what quality is most helpful for remembering the Dhamma? ... " "Hearing the Dhamma .... If one didn't hear the Dhamma, one wouldn't remember the Dhamma ...." "But what quality is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma? ... " "Lending ear .... If one didn't lend ear, one wouldn't hear the Dhamma ...." "But what quality is most helpful for lending ear? ... " "Growing close .... If one didn't grow close, one wouldn't lend ear ...." "But what quality is most helpful for growing close? ... " "Visiting .... If one didn't visit, one wouldn't grow close ...." "But what quality is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for visiting." "Conviction [dhamma] is most helpful for visiting, Bharadvaja. If conviction [in a person] didn't arise, one wouldn't visit [that person]. Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting." "We have asked Master Gotama about safeguarding the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about safeguarding the truth. We like that & agree with that,[1] and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about awakening to the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about awakening to the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about finally attaining the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about finally attaining the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. We have asked Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for finally attaining the truth, and Master Gotama has answered about the quality most helpful for finally attaining the truth. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. Whatever we have asked Master Gotama, Master Gotama has answered it. We like that & agree with that, and so we are gratified. "We used to think, 'Who are these bald-headed "contemplatives," these menial, dark offspring of [Brahma] the Kinsman's feet?[2] Who are they to know the Dhamma?' But now Master Gotama has inspired within us a contemplative-love for contemplatives, a contemplative-confidence in contemplatives, a contemplative-respect for contemplatives. Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! In many ways has Master Gotama made the Dhamma clear -- just as if he were to place upright what has been overturned, to reveal what has been hidden, to point out the way to one who is lost, or to set out a lamp in the darkness so that those with eyes might see forms. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, & to the community of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge from this day forward, for life." ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Notes 1. Notice that Kapadika is careful to safeguard the truth in the way he expresses his approval for the Buddha's teachings. [Go back] 2. The brahmins regarded Brahma as their original ancestor, and so called him their "Kinsman." The commentary notes that they regarded themselves as born from his mouth, while other castes were born from lower parts of his body, down to contemplatives (samana), who they said were born from his feet. [Go back] ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- See also: AN III.66; AN IX.1. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Revised: Fri 1 December 2000 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html ============================================================ ================= Majjhima Nikaya 152 Indriya-bhavana Sutta The Development of the Faculties For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Kajjangalas in the Bamboo Grove. Then the young brahmin Uttara, a student of Parasiri (Parasivi) went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged friendly greetings & courtesies. After this exchange of courteous greetings he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him: "Uttara, does the brahmin Parasiri teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "Yes, master Gotama, he does." "And how does he teach his followers the development of the faculties?" "There is the case where one does not see forms with the eye, or hear sounds with the ear [in a trance of non-perception]. That's how the brahmin Parasiri teaches his followers the development of the faculties." "That being the case, Uttara, then a blind person will have developed faculties, and a deaf person will have developed faculties, according to the words of the brahmin Parasiri. For a blind person does not see forms with the eye, and a deaf person does not hear sounds with the ear." When this was said, the young brahmin Uttara sat silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words. The Blessed One -- noticing that Uttara was sitting silent & abashed, his shoulders slumped, his head down, brooding, at a loss for words -- said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, the development of the faculties that the brahmin Parasiri teaches his followers is one thing, but the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one is something else entirely." "Now is the time, O Blessed One. Now is the time, O One Well-Gone, for the Blessed One to teach the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of the noble one. Having heard the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, Ananda, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," Ven. Ananda responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Now how, Ananda, in the discipline of a noble one is there the unexcelled development of the faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a man with good eyes, having closed them, might open them; or having opened them, might close them, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to forms cognizable by the eye. "Furthermore, when hearing a sound with the ear, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily snap his fingers, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to sounds cognizable by the ear. "Furthermore, when smelling an aroma with the nose, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as drops of water roll off a gently sloping lotus leaf & do not remain there, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to aromas cognizable by the nose. "Furthermore, when tasting a flavor with the tongue, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily spit out a ball of saliva gathered on the tip of his tongue, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to flavors cognizable by the tongue. "Furthermore, when touching a tactile sensation with the body, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.' With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might easily extend his flexed arm or flex his extended arm, that is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to tactile sensations cognizable by the body. "Furthermore, when cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this disagreeable thing...this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity. With that, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. Just as a strong man might let two or three drops of water fall onto an iron pan heated all day: Slow would the falling of the drops of water, but they quickly would vanish & disappear. That is how quickly, how rapidly, how easily, no matter what it refers to, the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing ceases, and equanimity takes its stance. In the discipline of a noble one, this is called the unexcelled development of the faculties with regard to ideas cognizable by the intellect. "And how is one a person in training, someone following the way? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing. "When hearing a sound with the ear...When smelling an aroma with the nose...When tasting a flavor with the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation with the body...When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. He feels horrified, humiliated, & disgusted with the arisen agreeable thing...disagreeable thing...agreeable & disagreeable thing. "This is how one is a person in training, someone following the way. "And how is one a noble one with developed faculties? There is the case where, when seeing a form with the eye, there arises in a monk what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not -- cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. "When hearing a sound with the ear...When smelling an aroma with the nose...When tasting a flavor with the tongue...When touching a tactile sensation with the body...When cognizing an idea with the intellect, there arises in him what is agreeable, what is disagreeable, what is agreeable & disagreeable. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome. If he wants, he remains percipient of loathsomeness in the presence of what is not loathsome & what is. If he wants, he remains percipient of unloathsomeness in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not. If he wants -- in the presence of what is loathsome & what is not -- cutting himself off from both, he remains equanimous, alert, & mindful. "This is how one is a noble one with developed faculties. "So, Ananda, I have taught you the unexcelled development of the faculties in the discipline of a noble one; I have taught you how one is a person in training, someone following the way; I have taught you how one is a noble one with developed faculties. Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- Revised: Tue 27 June 2000 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html 3155 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Thanks for starting off on this thread. I am sort of curious about how this works for people. As you mentioned, the firm and right understanding, especially of the anattaness and the conditions of the sankhara dhammas, seems almost to be the essential requirements. However, as we have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on this as well. Some believe that the only way that satipatthana can arise and can be developed are through "formal" practice. I am also interested to hear about the minute conditions as well. Some have mentioend that consideration of dhamma can be a condition. Some mentioned dana. Some mentioned other kind of kusala. Some mentioned akusala. One thing that I have heard before which I still don't understand is that the desire for Satipatthana to arise cannot be a condition for Satipatthana. Can satipatthana not arise to cognize the lobha, either prior, or after, Satipathanna has arisen? kom > -----Original Message----- > it takes time to develop it. However, remember the virtuos > circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual > understanding > supports direct awareness but direct awareness helps the > conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it > would be very > hard to have firm understanding of anatta if > there had never > been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct > understanding grow > together- and other faculties such as saddha, > confidence also > become powerful. I can certainly see how these dhammas become support conditions for one another. > Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes > and bad sometimes > (just like now). The difference: it was all self. The dhamma is great, isn't it? There is neither good Robert nor bad Robert. Just conditioned dhammas that rise and fall away immediately. We can have piti for any kusala dhamma, and upekkha for any akusala dhamma regardless of what we think whose it is. kom 3156 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 3:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi Howard, Welcome to the list. I hope you are enjoying your conversations. > -----Original Message----- > Well, there's not much for me to say in > this regard. There is > Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of > Mahayana seem to me to stray > quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other > hand, many of the Mahayana > sutras, especially early ones, seem to > legitimately present Dhamma, but with > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in > the Pali suttas. And this > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate > certain aspects of the Dhamma in > the same way the good commentary will. The question is why study Mahayanna text or why study Theravada texts? If we are scholars and study the text to learn the historical significance or their differences, then we must study them both in order to discern the differences. However, if we study to learn the truth, then we must learn from the sources most likely to allow us to see the truth. > There are differences in terminology > between Theravada and Mahayana > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. > But once one finds > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem > to fit well with Theravada. > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in > Theravada and Mahayana are > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of > emptiness exists in Theravada, > but is different from what Theravada means by > emptiness. As I understand it, > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = > impersonality (of all dhammas). In > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all > dhammas, i.e., lack of > independent identity/existence of all > (conditioned) dhammas due to their > dependently originated status and impermanence. > This latter notion, of course > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I > don't think that it is > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. As you mentioned, the concepts (and of course, the realities) of both ultimate realities and insubstantiality both exist in the theravada texts. The concepts are pretty much interlinked. Realities are impersonal partly because they do not last; therefore, there is nothing that you can identify to be mine, yours, ours, or theirs. What was identified just a tiny moment ago as ours cease to exist a long time ago before "we" identify it as such. Things are insubstantial partly because of the same reason. Even though there is something that really exists, but because of its brief existence, it might as well not exist. Another reason for things being impersonal and insubstantial is because they are mostly conditioned. When its conditions exist, a dhamma arise, regardless of whether or not we want it to arise or not. When conditions exist, a dhamma doesn't arise, regardless of whether we want it to arise or not. How can you identify something as self when "you" cannot control its rising or falling? Although the exact meaning of the words are different, however, if it conveys the truth, there is nothing lost in learning it. > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada > and Mahayana consider > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, > Theravada means by this that > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal > (being empty of self or > anything related to a self) and being empty of > all conditions, whereas > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in > the same sense as it considers > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as > lacking of independent existence. > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and > nibbana in some sense. This would be a really big difference. Nibhanna is not a conditioned dhamma. It doesn't rise, it doesn't fall, and it exists even when other dhammas are rising and falling rapidly. In this particular way, you can certainly think of it as being independent from other dhammas... kom 3157 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 5:12pm Subject: music too hi dan hi robert glad you're enjoying my posts, though i hope it doesn't mean you are as confused as i am :-) ok, movies, sense desires: dan you wrote: Thus, when wisdom is developed to the point where the desire > for watching shows becomes weaker and weaker, it is a wondrous thing. > However, such wisdom cannot be forced. this is already my experience exactly: once i started studying the Dhamma (reading and listening and yes formal sitting practice), the desire to go to movies, listen to music, watch television, read literature, make art: all these things started to just fall away....a few good Dhamma friends have also had the same experience... i never consciously suppressed any urges to do any of the above, the urges just evaporated...i wouldn't go so far as to say call it wisdom, though perhaps my understanding of the term panna is too closely aligned with what i know (from reading, from hearing) of the vipassana nanas.....if panna does accrue incrementally, then perhaps these desires that fall away naturally, or rather the timing of their falling, will vary from person to person....this would make sense, in that not everyone is attracted to the same sense pleasures, and/or to the same extent, to begin with.... in particular the falling away of music has been the must unusal...i never thought i would live without being surrounded by all the music i thought i "loved" so much....everything from gamelan to glam has just dropped away...this has alienated some people with whom i used to share this passion...but it's not that i now dislike music now, or that i am trying to control any urges to put it on....the urges just don't arise anymore, music is just not that important....gee maybe it sounds strange to some of the list members too: i'm wondering: has anybody else had their desire to be entertained and their urges to consume the arts simply evaporate? bruce At 12:00 2001/02/01 -0000, you wrote: > Hi Bruce, > Thanks for your wonderful posts. I always enjoy reading your questions > and hear your insights. As you implied in one of your posts, > indulgence in movies is almost invariably rooted in lobha. Because the > sensory stimulation is so intense, it is very difficult to cultivate > samma-sati while watching a movie (even though it is theoretically > possible). This is why abstaining from watching shows is included in > the eight precepts. I look at the eight precepts as training > guidelines for serious lay students of Dhamma. Following them can be > of enormous help in walking on the path. > > As wisdom increases, it becomes clearer and clearer how lobha drives > the desire to watch movies, and the mind recoils from the thought of > going to movies because it clearly recognizes that to do so only > serves to expose the mind to prime conditions for cultivating a > vibrant and vigorous lobha. > > On the other hand, some wise person said (paraphrase to the best of > memory): "Arahants don't keep precepts; Arahants don't break > precepts," meaning that as wisdom increases, keeping the precepts is > effortless. But keeping precepts such as abstaining from movies is > difficult for the lay follower--so difficult, in fact, that to succeed > one risks cultivating intense dosa for fear of temporarily cultivating > lobha. > > (cf. Brahmajala Sutta, Sama‚óaphala Sutta) > > Dan 3158 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 5:40pm Subject: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Jim, (Dan & Kom) --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > >Dear Pali experts & friends, > > > >--- <> wrote: > > > >> And many special > >> words about meditition, e.g. in the last lines of > the last of the > >> Majjhima Nikaya:(approximately) "Meditate now, > Ananda, and do not > >> delay, or you will regret it later." > > > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). > Also found at M i 118 (MN > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda. I don't think > there is any with > Ananda. > > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as > "Increase samatha and > vipassanaa". > > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m > hoti." --MA ii 195 > (there's a bit more just before this) > Jim, I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta 152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). ............................................... Sace ąkaļkhati: pańikkålaü ca appańikkålaü ca tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvą upekkhako vihareyyaü sato sampająno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato sampająno. Evaü kho ąnanda, ariyo hoti bhąvitindriyo. ..................................................... Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses 'Practice jhana, Ananda'! When I read this sutta, I understand that the Buddha is explaining that attachment and aversion arise on account of the objects appearing through the different doorways. 'But that is conditioned, gross, dependently arisen;..' Understanding the nature of these realities, 'equanimity is established'. This is the 'indriyabhavana' with regard to the eye. The Buddha continues for the other doorways. In other words, I understand the mental development (here, vipassana) or the indriya or 'faculties'. Comments appreciated! Dan, Many thanks for the quote from this sutta. It's a very useful one to discuss in more detail. Sarah p.s. Kom, If you're referring to the complete sutta on line, if you use the hyperlink, as Mike does, it's possibly easier for some using the digest form and saves our archive space which MAY be limited at some stage... thanks. 3159 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 6:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom, I'm not sure if we'll tempt Robert away from his internet vacation, so I'll say a few words first! --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Thanks for starting off on this thread. I am sort > of > curious about how this works for people. As you > mentioned, > the firm and right understanding, especially of the > anattaness and the conditions of the sankhara > dhammas, seems > almost to be the essential requirements. There must be plenty of right intellectual understanding first. In other words, if we have never heard the Buddha's teachings, there will be no condition for the development of Satipatthana. There will be no awareness of realities as anatta. Even if we have read some of the Tipitaka or listened to a Buddhist teacher, if there has been no skilful considering of realities as nama(mental phenomena) and rupa (physical phenomena which don't experience), the same applies. Even when satipatthana begins to develop, we need to continue listening, hearing and considering over and over and over again, I find. It's never enough! However, > as we > have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on > this as > well. Some believe that the only way that > satipatthana can > arise and can be developed are through "formal" > practice. When we have the idea of 'situations' there is no understanding at that time because these are concepts. Regardless of whether one is in 'formal practice', the cinema or the Californian surf, there are realities which have to be understood correctly intellectually and then directly as they appear, one at a time. > > I am also interested to hear about the minute > conditions as > well. Some have mentioend that consideration of > dhamma can > be a condition. Some mentioned dana. Some > mentioned other > kind of kusala. Consideration of dhamma is essential. Listening or reading (as we're doing here) in order to consider is essential. All kinds of kusala can be a support condition. However, it depends on different accumulations how generous someone is and whether, for example, any samatha has been developed. We know that some in the Buddha's time attained jhanas and some didn't. Some people were generous and some were stingy, but they could all develop satipatthana if they had heard about realities and saw the value in developing satipatthana. >Some mentioned akusala. One thing > that I > have heard before which I still don't understand is > that the > desire for Satipatthana to arise cannot be a > condition for > Satipatthana. Akusala (unwholesomeness) of any kind cannot be a direct condition for satipatthana. Akusala cittas(unwholesome moments of consciousness) are a condition for more akusala. However, akusala can be indirect condition by way of object predominance-condition such as when there is wise reflection on some akusala cittas. Conversely there may be attachment to kusala (skilful) deeds performed by way of decisive support-condition. When there is awareness of an akusala citta or cetasika(mental factor), there is no akusala at that moment. Desire leads to more desire regardless of the object. Desire for sati is definitely a hindrance even though the desire can be the object of sati at another moment. Can satipatthana not arise to cognize > the > lobha, either prior, or after, Satipathanna has > arisen? Sati can be aware of any reality appearing. Avijja (ignorance) is very tricky however, as Robert has discussed. It's so easy to have just a teeny hankering for that sati and to be trying to direct it rather than just being aware of whatever nama or rupa appears without minding what or when. It really is a path of patience.....any moments of doubt and wondering can also be known as conditioned realities, just for a brief instant and then gone! Kom, you may also note some useful comments on the article on Satipatthana that Amara mentioned on the website. Please add your comments and any different viewpoints or difficulties. They're a condition for some useful reflection and very occasional moments of sati! Sarah > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > it takes time to develop it. However, remember the > virtuos > > circle I mentioned a while back. The intellectual > > understanding > > supports direct awareness but direct awareness > helps the > > conceptual understanding to grow too. I think it > > would be very > > hard to have firm understanding of anatta if > > there had never > > been direct awareness. Theoretical and direct > > understanding grow > > together- and other faculties such as saddha, > > confidence also > > become powerful. > > I can certainly see how these dhammas become support > conditions for one another. > > > Before I heard the Dhamma I was good sometimes > > and bad sometimes > > (just like now). The difference: it was all self. > > The dhamma is great, isn't it? There is neither > good Robert > nor bad Robert. Just conditioned dhammas that rise > and fall > away immediately. We can have piti for any kusala > dhamma, > and upekkha for any akusala dhamma regardless of > what we > think whose it is. > > kom > 3160 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 7:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: buddhaghosa's book Let me or the list know if you need more help in locating a copy! Metta and Blessings, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 8:31 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: buddhaghosa's book My dear Bhikkhu, thankyou I will have a look at the list. I have read excerpts from this work by Buddhaghosa and many texts refer to the benefit of reading it. It seems there are online versions, or partial versions, in german or dutch (I think). I am a working householder so if I save up I could possibly afford it when I come accross a copy. Sydney, Australia is not such a small town, there must be a copy here somewhere. thanks for your assistance antony --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > Yes, Visuddhi Magga is Buddhaghosa's commentary. > 3161 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 0:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nirodha dear abrennan, i dont know the exact english equivalents , i stated the pali words so of anyone has a pali CD the words can be searched. I am sorry i missed one word in that phrase,(tanhakkhayo) the complete phrase is, etam santam , etam paneetam, yadidam? sabba-samkhaara-samatho , sabbuupadhipatinissaggo , tanhakkhayo , virago , nirodho , nibbanam. etam = this santham => santa+am => sanskrit Shanta => Calm? paneetam=> paneeta + am => sanskrit = Praneetha => the normal meaning is 'sweet'/Tasty ? This is calm and this is sweet... Yadidam? = What? sabba samkhaara samatho => All fabrications (sabba samkhaara) samatha ( this is something like calming down-..?) sabba upadhi patinissaggo => letting go of all 'upadhi's ( i dont know a suitable english word for upadhi ) tanhakkhayo => tanhakkhaya ->ending of tanha virago=> viraga-> non- attachment nirodho=> nirodha-> stopping ( this may mean the stopping of the cyclical existance[samsara vatta]) nibbanam=>nibbana-> this is the extinguishing ( ie. a fire) Regds. 3162 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:14pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana > However, > > as we > > have seen, there seems to be a wide disagreement on > > this as > > well. Some believe that the only way that > > satipatthana can > > arise and can be developed are through "formal" > > practice. Formal practice, if done correctly, can be enormously helpful. In my reading of the Suttas, it is essential for liberation. After all, I don't think Buddha included "right concentration" in the eightfold path without good reason! What does "right concentration" mean? According to Samyutta Nikaya (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." Does this mean that jhana is requisite to enlightenment? Well, from my reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane absorption occurs only with concentration at the first jhana level or beyond. However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other scripture) supports the notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and phala still appear to require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How can this level of concentration be developed without "formal practice"? On the other hand, formal practice is certainly no guarantee of wisdom arising. The practice can easily become just another object of clinging and vehicle for proliferation of views, and it commonly does. The question for me is not whether meditation is essential or not (at some point it IS essential, at other points it is not), but how to keep the practice in balance, so that wisdom arises in place of clinging to formations and sensations. Practice and reading and questioning all come into play. 3163 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: Nirodha Dear Jim thanks for the information it is very interesting and useful. One ofthe things I have heard is that the term nirodha was understood in ancient vedic times to be a quality produced in a sacred fire when it was protected from the environment: i.e. wind, rain, leaves, twigs and insects, etc. This kind of flame was seen as a better flame to practice sacrifice with. It seemed to me that this was a simile for reducing the hinderances to practice, sensual desire, ill-will, etc. I liked the idea of Buddha using terms that had more than one dimension to their meaning. Remove the hinderances to the flame burning properly so you can see what fuel is causing the flame to be produced. remove that fuel and you remove the flame. Well I found in interesting anyway. thanks again for your help --- "Jim Anderson" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > I take it that your query on the term 'nirodha' has something to do with an > interest in its etymology especially when I see that you divide the word up > into NI + RODHA. I'm not too familiar with the word myself so I have to > search about for some commentarial explanation. I have found a good starting > point for exploring this word with some useful information provided in the > Visuddhimagga (XVI.18) in reference to the term as used in the third noble > truth: dukkha-nirodha. In this passage we learn that NI has the sense of > 'absence' (abhaava). In a traditional grammar like the Saddaniiti, there is > a section on the prefixes (upasagga-s) that gives the various senses of each > prefix. For NI we find that 'abhaava' is listed as one of the 14 meanings > given there. > > RODH is derived from the verbal root RUDH. The Dhaatumaala (Garland of > Roots -- one of the three major sections of the Saddaniiti) gives its > meaning as: 'aavara.na' which does not exactly have a clear meaning for me. > The PED gives the meaning of aavara.na as: hindrance, obstruction which > might do for now. RUDH becomes RODH by way of the addition of the > primary affix 'a' (gha~n) which changes the root vowel U into O through > strengthening (gu.na). RUDH + A > RODHA. For the word RODHA the PED > gives: obstruction, stopping. In the next entry for the same word there is > given: bank, dam -- which one can see is connected to the first entry in > meaning and could very well have been included in the first entry. The > passage at Vism XVI.18 defines RODHA as 'caaraka'. ~Naa.namoli translates > RODHA as 'constraint' and 'caaraka' as 'prison'. In checking with Apte's > Sanskrit Dictionary, "bondage, fetter" could also be considered for > 'caaraka'. I'm not sure what word would best fit with 'absence of' and I'm > only thinking of something like 'absence of obstruction' for now. Ths same > passage also gives an alternative meaning for 'nirodha' as 'anuppaada' -- > non-arising. So now there is more to go on for further study. > > I hope you find these notes useful in your worthwhile investigation of the > term 'nirodha'. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > -----Original Message----- > > >I am interested in this term: Nirodha > > > >does anyone have any information on the background of the term > > > >I only ever see it translated as cessation, and although I don't > >disagree with that at all, I know that there are other dimensions to > >the meaning, as there are with almost all terms translated into the > >limitations of English. > > > >I understand that it is a product of two other words Ni and Rodha, Ni > >meaning something like below and Rodha meaning something like > >embankment. > > > >I would be interested in your comments. > > > >antony 3164 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] music too Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > i'm wondering: has anybody else > had > their desire to be entertained > and their urges to consume the arts > simply > evaporate? Something like that--I seldom go to a movie or listen to music anymore, unless I'm entertaining guests. When I do hear music I enjoy (or dislike!) it as much as I ever did, though it also seems somehow intrusive or distracting. Subjectively it seems that the desire to hear music just arises far less often than it used to. The desire to 'hear' (via the internet ususally) and consider the Dhamma arises much more frequently, as well as the desire for progress on the path. There's a lot of akusala in these desires too--however, hearing the Dhamma conditions present and future kusala, while listening to Leonard Cohen (an all-time favorite) or Chopin or Ry Cooder doesn't--wish it did! mike 3165 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: music too > in particular the falling away of music has been the must unusal...i never > thought i would live without being surrounded by all the music i thought i > "loved" so much....everything from gamelan to glam has just dropped > away...this has alienated some people with whom i used to share this > passion...but it's not that i now dislike music now, or that i am trying to > control any urges to put it on....the urges just don't arise anymore, music > is just not that important....gee maybe it sounds strange to some of the > list members too: i'm wondering: has anybody else had > their desire to be entertained > and their urges to consume the arts > simply > evaporate? Dear Bruce, Tell me about it! For me it had been anything from Placido Domingo to Ricky Martin but these days I've hardly touched my Bang&Olufsen although when I work on my translations I sometimes turn on my MP3 player program. Which doesn't mean I made a conscious effort not to enjoy music. For me it is better to know I still have a lot of kilesa that are not under my control, that not being a sotapanna I could probably break one of the five sila any time since only they could naturally not break them no matter the circumstances. This keeps me from feeling over confident and to be as mindful of realities as they really are as much as I can, and not rely for a special period of time during which 'I' could strive to keep kilesa from arising and to get rid of them. This I think is lobha, a hope, a wishful thinking, since all things arise from conditions, and knowledge of things as they really are are the sole conditions for right understanding, and studying them as they arise and appear at each instant to know their true characteristics the only way for panna to develop and grow strong enough to eradicate kilesa in its turn. Being afraid of one's own limitless kilesa is dosa, without one's realizing it. One should instead be brave enough to face one's imperfections and study them, and increase one's panna. The thing about kilesa, the more one knows them, the less strong they seem to be. Having passed your tobacco test, I think you might see what I meant. What is attachment to tobacco compared to attachment to the six senses, to life, to coming back to samsara? Without studying realities now, as they are and not before or after, how would one know that they are nama, or intelligence/dhatu that can experience something, such as seeing now, hearing at this moment, body sense, etc., and rupa, such as a dead body with the same attributes but no nama, or this hardness at our finger tips, or the gasses we breathe, or empty space in the universe? There are conditions for us to be where we are, we really have no choice in the matter, and the wonderful thing is that we can still accumulate panna if we had heard the Buddha's teachings. Of all religions he alone taught about the citta's arising and falling away in great rapidity so that even if one practiced samadhi there would still be no 'self' to do it but the citta which had been conditioned to do so. The seeing nama that arises now as you see this is not the self, it is under no one's control, and arises and falls away 17 times as fast as any rupa. Even the lobha arising while listening to great music is not permanent, it rises and falls away according to conditions also. But as long as lobha has not been completely eradicated it can arise again with the proper conditions, and throughout samsara we have accumulated more than enough of those. Panna of things as they really are, including lobha, could grow strong enough to eradicate all kinds of kilesa one day, when developed to the right strength. And to develop panna one must realize, even as one sits still doing nothing, that one still has all the kilesa accumulated through endless samsara that could arise at any time with the right conditions. Although this doesn't mean that one should give it a chance to arise by looking for sense pleasures to test oneself against, when conditions are there for you to be there there could also be conditions for sati to arise and study and accumulate panna. In fact with the right accumulations sati can arise anywhere. But if at present there are conditions for us to be in front of the computer and mindfulness doesn't arise even as we talk about realities, seeing, visible objects, thinking, thoughts, etc., one might have even less conditions for sati to arise at a movie thearter or even in 'formal practice'. So often the 'peace' of sitting still is so full of subtle lobha expecting panna to arise, without the study of realities that entails panna. And without panna one would not be able to get away from the six dvara that brings so much attachment and fear: lobha and dosa arise from moha. Amara 3166 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear dhd5, > -----Original Message----- > Formal practice, if done correctly, can be > enormously helpful. In my > reading of the Suttas, it is essential for > liberation. After all, I > don't think Buddha included "right concentration" > in the eightfold > path without good reason! I am glad that you are wise and learn from the different sources from the tipitika. > > What does "right concentration" mean? According > to Samyutta Nikaya > (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from Here again, what I have heard before is that the right concentration is the samadhi cetasikas rising with all kusala cittas. Jhana citta is certainly kusala, and hence is Samma Samadhi. However, samadhi arising with other kusala cittas (dana, sila, and satipatthana) are also samma. Notice here also that the Buddha addressed the bihku and NOT the householders. As mentioned in the previous message, the context of the sutta is very important about the kinds of life that are suitable to developing the kinds of kusala dhamma. > > Does this mean that jhana is requisite to > enlightenment? Well, from my > reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane > absorption occurs only > with concentration at the first jhana level or beyond. > However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other > scripture) supports the > notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and > phala still appear to > require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How > can this level of > concentration be developed without "formal practice"? Here, you mentioned that the suttas also mention the dry insight workers (can anybody provide a reference that details who the dry insight workers are). I believe that at the moment where the maggha appears, the citta is steadfast and firm equivalent to the citta at the uppana level, even if one is a dry insight worker. This is because sathipatthana is also samatha, i.e, free of akusala and possessing the calming qualities (at a different degree) of jhana [it has kaya-pasadhi and citta-pasadhi, for examples]. To reach maggha citta, Satipatthana must arise often. This frequency conditions the maggha citta to be as steadfast as the first-level jhana, although only for a few moments, when Nibhanna is the citta's aramana. Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > On the other hand, formal practice is certainly > no guarantee of wisdom > arising. The practice can easily become just > another object of > clinging and vehicle for proliferation of views, > and it commonly does. I think we agree on this. > The question for me is not whether meditation is > essential or not (at > some point it IS essential, at other points it is > not), but how to > keep the practice in balance, so that wisdom > arises in place > of clinging to formations and sensations. > Practice and reading and > questioning all come into play. As we have gone over repeatedly, for the benefits of ourselves and others, this is the key difference among many of us. There are those of us who maintain that when sati-panna arises cognizing the paramatha-dhamma, there are benefits. There is no need to balance, to coerce, to enforce, and to seek suitable conditions. And there are some of us who believe in some degrees of controls (some may believe in controls so subtle that they don't even know it). kom 3167 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 11:53pm Subject: Re: music too Thanks for the great personal comments, Bruce. I'm in the same boat: music, tasty food, and movies are the three most obvious. I pretty much gave up movies close to 10 years ago. Not that I am incapable of enjoying them now, but the volition to go out and see them is much weaker than it used to be. For example, the alternator went out in my car a week or so ago. The mechanic said he could have a new one installed for me within an hour and half. I haven't been to a movie for a few years (except for one or two kid movies per year), so with the big, 10-plex movie theater right next door, I thought, "What a great opportunity to see a movie!" Great opportunity indeed, but when I got to the ticket counter, an image flashed into my mind: me sitting in the dark room, enthralled with the flow of the picture and the music. Pop! The volition to watch the movie vanished. I walked a mile to the barber to get my haircut instead. I got back just when the car was finished. Music has been sort of the same thing. I still listen to music and even enjoy it immensely at times, but I rarely miss it when it is not present, and I rarely go out of my way too far to indulge. When occasion arises to enjoy, I do, and the enjoyment is deeper than it was before learning a little Dhamma. It is not because the attachment to the entertainment is stronger, but because moments of awareness arise during the entertainment, which always means a reduction in the intensity of suffering---a wonderful thing indeed! Non-Buddhists might find this discussion frightening and awful: "Not going to movies or listening to music?! What rigid, stodgy, idiots they are!" But I don't feel like that at all. I don't force myself to avoid these things, and I don't have an aversion for them, but usually I just find them a distraction, which is of course what they are designed to be. 3168 From: Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:27am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice > as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna > while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the > father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? Tipitaka does not say a word about the circumstances of their training. It is hard to believe that they had no "formal" practice in meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the canon indicates the importance of "meditation", and, yes, even jhana (if only for brief moments of magga and phala). > As we have gone over repeatedly, for the benefits of > ourselves and others, this is the key difference among many > of us. There are those of us who maintain that when > sati-panna arises cognizing the paramatha-dhamma, there are > benefits. There is no need to balance, to coerce, to > enforce, and to seek suitable conditions. And there are > some of us who believe in some degrees of controls (some may > believe in controls so subtle that they don't even know it). When sati-panna arises cognizing the paramattha-dhamma, there are benefits indeed. But there is certainly a need to seek suitable conditions and a need to balance the practice. There is plenty warning from Pali literature about the need to balance the indriya evenly. It is not as easy as it sounds. It requires much careful, undistracted attention to do this. It doesn't happen by listening or thinking or talking or writing. As Vibhanga so unambiguously states as a common theme (Chapter 16): "sabbapi samapannassa pańńa bhavanamaya pańńa" (The wisom of one who has attained is wisdom by means of development). This is not to say that listening or thinking or talking or writing are not helpful. They can be of tremendous help. If we have no opportunity to learn or practice meditation, then listening, thinking, talking, and writing about Dhamma is of course beneficial. If there is time and opportunity to practice meditation, then the listening, thinking, talking, and writing can be more easily put to the support of bhavana, development, meditation, wisdom. 3169 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Bruce and Dan, I understand what you're saying. I've made similar arguments myself. My present conclusion is that both of these seemingly antithetical views are correct. Here's how I see it: All kinds of formal practice arise and subside according to conditions, past and present, just like everything else. No one practicing or not-practicing--just phenomena arising and subsiding. To the extent that these phenomena are conditioned by (past accumulation of) real understanding, the practice is kusala. To the extent that they're conditioned by ignorance, it's akusala. If it's akusala and accompanied by pleasant feeling, and especially if accompanied by one-pointedness, it's far worse than no practice at all--it's extremely habit-forming and does not cultivate path-factors--in fact, it prevents their arising. This is why a meditation hall can be more dangerous than a karaoke bar. I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will have akusala results--which is why I think that right view is the first path-factor. So this is not to say that all the wonderful practices encouraged over and over by the Buddha are not good--it's just to say that they are only good if conditioned by true understanding and proceeding from right view. Otherwise, they are bad and can be incredibly pernicious. This 'I can practice and advance on the path' view (sakaya-ditthi) has been and remains the most daunting obastacle I've ever encountered in pursuit of the Buddhadhamma. I also think it's the most important one to overcome. I can only speak for 'myself'! Very glad to have you two on this list. mike 3170 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present > practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very > clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a > feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can > do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will > benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis > is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no > matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will > have akusala results--which is why I think that right > view is the first path-factor. Thank you, Mike, for reminding me that "any effort arising with this sense of self" is akusala. > So this is not to say that all the wonderful practices > encouraged over and over by the Buddha are not > good--it's just to say that they are only good if > conditioned by true understanding and proceeding from > right view. Otherwise, they are bad and can be > incredibly pernicious. Yes, I understand. Thank you. As always, Alex 3171 From: Date: Fri Feb 2, 2001 9:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Hi, Kom - > Hi Howard, > > Welcome to the list. I hope you are enjoying your > conversations. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > -----Original Message----- > > Well, there's not much for me to say in > > this regard. There is > > Mahayana, and there is Mahayana! ;-)) Parts of > > Mahayana seem to me to stray > > quite far from thebuddhadhamma. On the other > > hand, many of the Mahayana > > sutras, especially early ones, seem to > > legitimately present Dhamma, but with > > a slightly different emphasis (or take) than in > > the Pali suttas. And this > > slight shift in emphasis may help illuminate > > certain aspects of the Dhamma in > > the same way the good commentary will. > > The question is why study Mahayanna text or why study > Theravada texts? If we are scholars and study the text to > learn the historical significance or their differences, then > we must study them both in order to discern the differences. > However, if we study to learn the truth, then we must learn > from the sources most likely to allow us to see the truth. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I moved towards the Dhamma, philosophically, first through Advaita Vedanta, then onto Mahayana (a clear improvement, I believe ;-)), and then to the Pali suttas and Theravada (the best, I believe! ;-)) I see the Buddhadhamma most clearly and truly through the Theravada perspective. However, I have found that there is also much of value - for example, Nagarjuna - to be found in Mahayana. ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > There are differences in terminology > > between Theravada and Mahayana > > that are subtle, and can be confusing, I think. > > But once one finds > > appropriate "translation", parts of Mahayana seem > > to fit well with Theravada. > > For example, the notions of su~n~nata/shunyata in > > Theravada and Mahayana are > > related, but different. The Mahayana notion of > > emptiness exists in Theravada, > > but is different from what Theravada means by > > emptiness. As I understand it, > > in Theravada, emptiness = anattata = > > impersonality (of all dhammas). In > > Mahayana, emptiness = insubstantiality of all > > dhammas, i.e., lack of > > independent identity/existence of all > > (conditioned) dhammas due to their > > dependently originated status and impermanence. > > This latter notion, of course > > also exists very much so in Theravada, though I > > don't think that it is > > exactly what 'su~n~nata' refers to there. > > As you mentioned, the concepts (and of course, the > realities) of both ultimate realities and insubstantiality > both exist in the theravada texts. The concepts are pretty > much interlinked. Realities are impersonal partly because > they do not last; therefore, there is nothing that you can > identify to be mine, yours, ours, or theirs. What was > identified just a tiny moment ago as ours cease to exist a > long time ago before "we" identify it as such. Things are > insubstantial partly because of the same reason. Even > though there is something that really exists, but because of > its brief existence, it might as well not exist. Another > reason for things being impersonal and insubstantial is > because they are mostly conditioned. When its conditions > exist, a dhamma arise, regardless of whether or not we want > it to arise or not. When conditions exist, a dhamma doesn't > arise, regardless of whether we want it to arise or not. > How can you identify something as self when "you" cannot > control its rising or falling? > > Although the exact meaning of the words are different, > however, if it conveys the truth, there is nothing lost in > learning it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > One possible disconnection: Both Theravada > > and Mahayana consider > > nibbana to be sunya; but, as I understand this, > > Theravada means by this that > > nibbana is empty in the sense of being impersonal > > (being empty of self or > > anything related to a self) and being empty of > > all conditions, whereas > > Mahayana seems to consider nibbana as empty in > > the same sense as it considers > > all conditioned phenomena empty, namely as > > lacking of independent existence. > > In fact, Mahayana strongly identifies samsara and > > nibbana in some sense. > > This would be a really big difference. Nibhanna is not a > conditioned dhamma. It doesn't rise, it doesn't fall, and > it exists even when other dhammas are rising and falling > rapidly. In this particular way, you can certainly think of > it as being independent from other dhammas... > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I completely agree. There is an "unreality" (though *not* a nothingness or absolute non-existence) to the world of conditions, but nibbana is *real*. (I believe the Pali word is 'santo'?) ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > kom > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3172 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 11:17am Subject: breath and nimitta hi all kom wrote: > After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become nimita? I > don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although I don't > need an answer anyway) i probably don't need one, but curiousity compels me to look for one; and since you asked that question, i'll ask this one: *does* the breath even become nimitta? i found this rather interesting article on the topic: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm bruce 3173 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa --Dear Mike and Alex, (Jim - I have a comment for you at the bottom) A very useful post Mike. It made me break off my vacation briefly though ;( Just thought I should add some points (for technical accuracy). > Dear Mike, > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > I think that a sure-fire way to tell if present > > practice is kusala or akusala is to discern very > > clearly whether or not there is the idea (more a > > feeling, I think) present that, "I'm doing this--I can > > do this--I should do this--I can control this--I will > > benefit from this" etc. My current working hypothesis > > is that any effort arising with this sense of self--no > > matter how subtle--is to that extent akusala and will > > have akusala results--which is why I think that right > > view is the first path-factor. > > Thank you, Mike, for reminding me that "any effort arising with > this sense of self" is akusala. > Usually, as you say, this is simply akusala. However, there can still be many types of kusala with a subtle idea of self. What there can't be (and I know this is exactly what you are saying) is the development of the eightfold path. Thus the commentaries call even the jhanas (the normal types)as adding bricks in the wall of samsara. They too build up conditions for future births on and on. The results are highly pleasant but... The atthasalini says p526 of expositor (commentarial chapter)"The nine jhanas ....have not the path for object, neither for condition nor for dominant influence.." This sense of self isn't predominant during the actual moments of jhana or during other types of kusala(of the non-satipatthana types). But it can be a conditioning factor. One can see how pernicious it truly is. This of course doesn't mean don't try to develop jhana or other kusala; it just means be awake to the likelihood of self view hiding somewhere. If one doesn't know about all this one is sure not to see it. If that is the case one may live a very good life, develop much kusala but still not be breaking up the causes for samsara. Jim, VERY much appreciated your translation of that piece about meditating at the roots of trees - and the commmentary saying it was the increase of samattha and vipassana that is meant. sarah said it wasn't quite the piece mentioned by Dan though. Could you clarify exactly where your except came from (just so I don't make a misquote in the future). Robert > 3174 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Sarah, You wrote: >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as I couldn't find the passage with Ananda. >............................................... > Sace ąkaļkhati: pańikkålaü ca appańikkålaü ca >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvą upekkhako vihareyyaü sato >sampająno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato >sampająno. Evaü kho ąnanda, ariyo hoti bhąvitindriyo. However, this is not the passage. A few lines up from the bottom you will see this line: "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha ..." -- M iii 302 With the exception of the name Ananda instead of Cunda, the rest of the line is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the commentarial interpretation at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason why this did not come up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the possibility of a vowel coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only looking for jhaayatha and that is why I only found two instances instead of three. >..................................................... >Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find that it does not quite agree with the commentary which includes both samatha and vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a better translation than 'Practice jhana'. Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should say that I have only zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried reading the whole sutta to see how the line fits in with the context. Best wishes, Jim A. 3175 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 0:58pm Subject: meditate at the foot of trees:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Jim, Great, exactly what I wanted. I am getting very attached to your help Jim. I will send this to Nina too - she really likes to know about the difficult points and what the commentaries say. Robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I think > >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta > >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). > > You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as I couldn't > find the > passage with Ananda. > > >............................................... > > Sace ąkaļkhati: pańikkålaü ca appańikkålaü ca > >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvą upekkhako vihareyyaü sato > >sampająno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato > >sampająno. Evaü kho ąnanda, ariyo hoti bhąvitindriyo. > > However, this is not the passage. A few lines up from the > bottom you will > see this line: > > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of Cunda, the > rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the commentarial > interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason why this > did not come > up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the > possibility of a vowel > coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only looking > for jhaayatha > and that is why I only found two instances instead of three. > > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find that it > does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both samatha > and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a better > translation than > 'Practice jhana'. > > Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should say that I > have only > zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried reading > the whole sutta > to see how the line fits in with the context. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3176 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:04pm Subject: accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pańńa Dear group, I am trying to stay away! can't control myself;) (what is worse I've picked up the habit of making smiling faces when I write) I started thinking about how different the eight-factored path is from any other type of kusala. I've been reading over the atthasalini a little recently. Thought you might like some references: I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of mundane Jhanas. The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on lokuttara (transendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momenatry flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of jhana]" Of course none of this means don't do kusala. It does indicate the profundity of satipatthana though- the path that leads to breaking up the wall. Robert 3177 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 1:55pm Subject: Re: accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Robert and all, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: >> Dear group, > >I am trying to stay away! can't control myself;) (what is worse > >I've picked up the habit of making smiling faces when I write) :-) :-) :-) Pardon me, Robert, because I cannot help not to tease you a little. >> Of course none of this means don't do kusala. It does indicate >> the profundity of satipatthana though- the path that leads to >> breaking up the wall. Indeed, the Teaching is deep, and difficult to realize. We can perform kusala deeds, but if we don't understand Realities, and mix them up with the Concepts, more conditions for staying in the samsara are built up. Thank you, Alex 3178 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 5:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breath and nimitta Dear Bruce, i know very little about anapanasati. just a couple of comments though. The writer of this article quotes from the vimuttimagga This is not listed as one of the commentaries and tikas in burma, thailand or sri lanka. I think it was a book found only this century. This is not to say it is wrong but he is stepping outside the theravada tradition by saying it should be given more weight than the Visuddhimagga. He writes that the patisambhidhimagga dates 200 years after the Buddha died- not according to the theravada which includes it as part of the tipitika from the first council. Robert --- bruce wrote: > hi all > > kom wrote: > > After the breath becomes nimita (how does breath become > nimita? I > > don't think anybody has answered this question yet, although > I don't > > need an answer anyway) > > i probably don't need one, but curiousity compels me to look > for one; and > since you asked that question, i'll ask this one: *does* the > breath even > become nimitta? i found this rather interesting article on the > topic: > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed058.htm > > bruce 3179 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sat Feb 3, 2001 6:07pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of > Cunda, the rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the > commentarial interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. Many thanks Jim, we were both on the right track but managed to slip a little! (You get an idea of how pathetic my pali is! I was very mystified at my quote because I couldn't match it to the English text and now I know why!) > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any > comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > that it does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both > samatha and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > better translation than > 'Practice jhana'. Yes this is very interesting. I can't find jhaayatha in my big dictionary and would be interested to know any more about its meaning. When I read the sutta, it's clear to me that the Buddha is encouraging Ananda in the development of both samatha and vipassana (i.e. both kinds of bhavana) and so I asked the qu. as this was clear (to me). When people read the word 'meditate' it has too many different connotations to us all, according to our understanding of the teachings. Probably I'd prefer something like 'develop calm and insight, Ananda' with a footnote to the commentary note! > Thanks again and I hope we're not disturbing your own translation projects TOO much. Sarah 3180 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Usually, as you say, this is simply akusala. > However, there can > still be many types of kusala with a subtle idea of > self. Thanks for making this distinction. I remember reading now (in AIDL) that jhana-bhavana is highly kusala--assuming of course that jhana really IS being cultivated. > What > there can't be (and I know this is exactly what you > are saying) > is the development of the eightfold path. Though this was the general idea, I hadn't made the precise distinction--thanks again. By the way, I thought I'd post a few links to references in the suttas to 'formal meditation'. There are a lot more where these came from--these were just a few I could find on-line. The context of each is different, of course, and I'm not taking them out of context to suggest a kind of endorsement. I think they do make it clear, though, that the Buddha did teach 'formal meditation' (as well as 'going forth--they seem closely connected), in case anyone were in doubt. It also seems clear to me that, in these citations, he is not referring to either 'seclusion' or 'bhikkhus' in a figurative or metaphoric sense. One of these was actually addressed by the Buddha to a layman--but still referred to monks. ______________________________________________________ After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. Digha Nikaya 2 Samańńaphala Sutta The Fruits of the Contemplative Life http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html _______________________________________________________ "Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a forest, at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He chooses a remote lodging in the forest...or on a heap of straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the meal, he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, having made mindfulness rise up in front of him... Majjhima Nikaya 125 Dantabhumi Sutta The Discourse on the "Tamed Stage" Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn125.html _______________________________________________________ "...he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. Digha Nikaya 11 Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta To Kevatta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html _______________________________________________________ Here, Rahula, one goes into the forest, to the roots of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down cross-legged and holds the body upright, keeping mindfulness present. Maha Rahulovada Sutta translated by Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm _______________________________________________________ Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Kamma Sutta (Ud III.1) http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3.html _______________________________________________________ Now at that time Ven. Revata the Doubter was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, reflecting on [his] purification through the overcoming of doubt. Udana V.7 Revata Sutta About Revata http://www.vipassana.com/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-7.html _______________________________________________________ "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Majjhima Nikaya 118 Anapanasati Sutta Mindfulness of Breathing http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html _______________________________________________________ "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Majjhima Nikaya 119 Kayagata-sati Sutta Mindfulness Immersed in the Body http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html Hope you're enjoying your holiday! mike 3181 From: m. nease Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nirodha Bruce, Thanks for reposting this--I nearly missed it. Bing, indeed! mike --- bruce wrote: > robert: this is the most succinct restatement of > paticcasamupada i think i've ever read, re: > > > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the > fuel is craving > > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the > khandas). Once > > that fuel is no longer being added (upon > attainment of arahant) > > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). > > it's suddenly so obvious: > it's the craving after nama and rupa > which conditions their arising. > > cut the craving after nama and rupa, > cut ignorance of why they are not > worth craving... > > **and they don't arise** > > **bing!!** > > many thanks! > > bruce > 3182 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 9:15am Subject: Intro Hello, I am new to the group, my name is Mark Rasmus. I am doing some research into the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on elements in particular. Can anyone give me any insight into how the elements of Wind, fire, water and earth fit into the Buddhist scheme of things. Any links to any info on the net about this topic would be greatfully received. Warm regards...Mark 3183 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: Intro --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello, > I am new to the group, my name is Mark Rasmus. > I am doing some research into the Abhidhamma, the Discourse on > elements in particular. Can anyone give me any insight into how the > elements of Wind, fire, water and earth fit into the Buddhist scheme > of things. > Any links to any info on the net about this topic would be greatfully > received. > Warm regards...Mark Dear Mark, Welcome! The following is an excerpt form the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' Part I in which might be of some interest to you. Others on the list might be able to provide other sources, Rupa-paramattha Rupa-paramattha is the reality that does not experience any arammana ; caused by conditions, it arises and falls away like the citta and cetasika. There are 28 kinds of rupa-paramattha and the meaning is not the same as the conventional rupa: a table being a rupa, a chair another, a book still another, for example. Among the 28 kinds of rupa, there is only one the citta experiences through the eye; it sees only one rupa: the object which appears to the eyes only. The other 27 rupa cannot be seen by citta but can be experienced elsewhere according to the type of the specific rupa, for example, sound can be experienced through the ears. Even though citta and cetasika cannot be seen with the eyes, like the 27 invisible rupa, but citta and cetasika are not rupa because they are paramattha-dhamma that experience arammana, while rupa is a paramattha-dhamma that does not experience arammana. Rupa-paramattha is a sankhara-dhamma (conditioned reality) that arises because of conditions. One rupa depends on another rupa to arise, therefore there can never be just one rupa arising alone, but a small group of rupa that arise together interdependently, impossible to separate or divide, called in Pali kalapa. Rupa is the infinitesimally tiny reality that arises and falls away rapidly at all times. A kalapa of rupa that arises lasts the amount of time 17 citta take to arise and fall away consecutively, which is very rapidly. The seeing and the hearing citta that appear as though they were simultaneous actually arise and fall away more than 17 moments of citta apart, therefore, the rupa that arises simultaneously with the seeing consciousness falls away before the citta that hears can arise. Each rupa is infinitesimal but when a group of rupa that arises and falls away together is divided minutely until it can no longer be separated. In the infinitesimal, indivisible group of rupa, there are at least 8 rupa together. These are call the eight avinibhoga-rupa: The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension The four mahabhuta-rupa arise interdependently and, therefore, are indivisible. They are the conditions or the basis on which another four rupa [upadaya-rupa] arise together with the mahabhuta-rupa and in the same kalapa: 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise These eight rupa cannot be separated. They form the smallest group of rupa that arises and falls away together very rapidly. The four mahabhuta-rupa alone, without the four upadaya-rupa (the rupa that are dependent on the mahabhuta-rupa to arise), cannot exist. The four mahabhuta-rupa are conditions for, by serving as base of, the upadaya-rupa that arise together with them in the same kalapa. But while the upadaya-rupa arise simultaneously in the same kalapa with the mahabhuta-rupa, the upadaya-rupa are not the conditions for the mahabhuta-rupa to arise. Therefore, the four mahabhuta-rupa arise together with the upadaya-rupa by having the mahabhuta-rupa as conditions, as base of the upadaya-rupa, while the latter arise simultaneously with the mahabhuta-rupa, dependent on the mahabhuta-rupa to arise, but are not the conditions for the mahabhuta-rupa to arise. There are altogether 28 rupa, 4 being mahabhuta-rupa, 24 upadaya-rupa. When the 4 mahabhuta-rupa do not arise, there can be none of the 24 upadaya-rupa. The 24 rupa can be explained from several perspectives. The present explanation is from the perspective of their interrelationship, to facilitate comprehension and memorization. When each group of rupa or kalapa arises, it does not fall away at once. Sabhava-rupa lasts as long as 17 instants of citta. 1. Upacaya-rupa is the rupa when it first arises. 2. Santati-rupa is the rupa at the moment it develops. 3. Jarata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it declines. 4. Aniccata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it falls away. Altogether they constitute the 4 lakkhana-rupa. These four lakkhana-rupa are asabhava-rupa. They are rupa without their own separate, distinct reality. But each of the four sabhava-rupa has four distinct characteristics, namely the moment it arises is not the moment it develops, and the moment of its deterioration is not the same as the moment of its development. In other words, upacaya-rupa and santati-rupa are rupa that have arisen but not yet fallen away, while the jarata-rupa and aniccata-rupa are rupa near, and at the moment of, falling away. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa = 12 rupa. Besides these there are: Pariccheda-rupa or akasa-rupa, which is between each kalapa, separating them. No matter how small or how large a rupa appears, it should be known that there is akasa-rupa between each kalapa punctiliously, allowing each kalapa to be separate from one another. If there were no pariccheda-rupa between each kalapa, all rupa would be connected, indivisible, non-dispersible. That even the rupa that appears large can be divided infinitesimally is because there is akasa-dhatu, or pariccheda-rupa, between each single kalapa. Therefore, the paricchedarupa is another asabhava-rupa without its own characteristics that arises separately; it arises between different kalapa that arise simultaneously. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa = 13 rupa. No matter where or in which plane the rupa arises, whether with or without life, it cannot be without these 13 rupa. For the rupa with life such as those of diverse entities or people in the planes of the five khandha, there are pasada-rupa that originates from kamma (volition or deeds resulting thereof) comprising: 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa; the rupa with which visual object can come into contact 2. Sotappasada-rupa, the rupa with which sound can come into contact 3. Ghanappasada-rupa; the rupa with which smell can come into contact 4. Jivhappasada-rupa; the rupa with which taste can come into contact 5. Kayappasada-rupa; the rupa with which cold or heat (fire element), softness or hardness (earth element), tension and motion (wind element) can come into contact The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa = 18 rupa. As to the rupa with life, which arises together with citta, each citta must arise at the appropriate rupa according to the respective type of citta; the cakkhu-vinnana sees, it arises at the cakkhuppasada-rupa; sota-vinnana hears, it arises at the sotappasada-rupa; ghana-vinnana smells, it arises at the ghanappasada-rupa, jivha-vinnana tastes, it arises at the jivhappasada-rupa; kaya-vinnana experiences photthabba through the bodysense (the elements of earth, fire and wind), it arises at the kayappasada-rupa. Other citta besides these arise at a rupa called hadayarupa (the rupa where the citta arises). The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa = 19 rupa. Every kalapa of the rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa. Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. Therefore the rupa of entities and people with life differ from those who are without. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa = 20 rupa. Entities and people differ generally as women and men because of two bhava-rupa: Itthibhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the feminine sex. Purisabhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the masculine sex. Each person would have one bhava-rupa or the other, namely itthibhava-rupa or purisabhava-rupa only, and some people have none, such as the brahma in the Brahma world, and those sexually deviant. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 Pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa = 22 rupa. For the rupa of entities and people to move, because of the citta arising with it, there must a rupa conditioned by the citta also, if there were only rupa arising from kamma, there can be no movement or function for the rupa. For the rupa of the body to move and function, there must be three vikara-rupa as follows: Lahuta-rupa is the state of lightness, non-heaviness of the rupa such as the physical conditions of the people without illness. Muduta-rupa is the state of malleability, non-stiffness of the rupa as in well-tanned leather. Kammannata-rupa is the state of task worthiness of the rupa as in well molten gold. The three vikara-rupa are asabhava-rupa, without their own separate, distinct reality. They constitute the special adaptable qualities of the mahabhuta-rupa, which is light, malleable and task worthy. The three vikara-rupa are rupa that arise in entities and people only. Rupa without life cannot have the three vikara-rupa. The three vikara-rupa are inseparable: in whichever kalapa there is lahuta-rupa, there must also be muduta-rupa and kammannata-rupa. Besides, when the citta wants to move any part of the body, that part must have vikara-rupa that arise from utu (equanimity of the element of cold and heat) as condition and also have rupa that arise from ojarupa (nutrition) as condition. Otherwise even if citta desires movement, the rupa cannot move, as in people with paralysis, luxation or weaknesses. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa = 25 rupa. When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, or emitting sounds in order to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to arise and come into contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can be no sonic emissions. Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that arise fall away with the citta. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa +1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa = 27 rupa. Some sources group the three vikara-rupa and two vinnatti-rupa as the 5 vikara-rupa. Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa which comes into contact with the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, radio and television sounds. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa = 28 rupa. The number of rupa differs in some sources, such as the Atthasalini Rupakandha, Pakinnakakatha, where there are 25 rupa, grouping the elements of earth, fire and wind together as photthabbayatana (the rupa that comes into contact with the Kayappasada-rupa), plus one hadaya-rupa equals 26 rupa. When a rupa arises, it arises simultaneously with a number of rupa to form a kalapa. Thus [the rupa] differs according to its type; also there are several classifications of the 28 rupa which will be discussed further in the appendix. (End quote) If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love to hear from you, Amara 3184 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 0:40pm Subject: Re: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Sarah, Jim: >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find >> that it does not >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both >> samatha and >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a >> better translation than >> 'Practice jhana'. Sarah: >Yes this is very interesting. I can't find jhaayatha >in my big dictionary and would be interested to know >any more about its meaning. 'Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending. In the PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will find two entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate, contemplate, think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to burn, to be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and vipassanaa" in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that helps to clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according to anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -- MA i 195. >When I read the sutta, it's clear to me that the >Buddha is encouraging Ananda in the development of >both samatha and vipassana (i.e. both kinds of >bhavana) and so I asked the qu. as this was clear (to >me). When people read the word 'meditate' it has too >many different connotations to us all, according to >our understanding of the teachings. Probably I'd >prefer something like 'develop calm and insight, >Ananda' with a footnote to the commentary note! >> >Thanks again and I hope we're not disturbing your own >translation projects TOO much. I have put the project of translating the first part of the Patthana commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too much of my spare time reading and responding to email messages. I'm also occupied with studying the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of 2000 Sanskrit roots, and wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali online. Best wishes, Jim A. 3185 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 1:02pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa > I have put the project of translating the first part of the Patthana > commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too much of my spare time > reading and responding to email messages. I'm also occupied with studying > the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of 2000 Sanskrit roots, and > wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali online. Dear Jim, That sounds like quite a load, but I must say I really regret the Patthana part, I really looked forward to that! Wishing there were more hours in a day, and that you succeed in all your endeavors, Amara 3186 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 1:48pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Sarah, Thanks for many useful comments in your reply. > -----Original Message----- > There must be plenty of right intellectual > understanding first. In other words, if we have never > heard the Buddha's teachings, there will be no > condition for the development of Satipatthana. There > will be no awareness of realities as anatta. Even if > we have read some of the Tipitaka or listened to a > Buddhist teacher, if there has been no skilful > considering of realities as nama(mental phenomena) and > rupa (physical phenomena which don't experience), the > same applies. Can there be no Satipathanna without hearing Buddha's teaching? I don't mean the "development" of Satipatthana, but just one brief moment of Satipatthana without knowing what it is? I can't see how you can "develop" Satipatthana without knowing what Sati is or what its benefits are (and for that, you definitely need to hear Buddha's teachings). But can there not be moments of Satipatthana for someone who haven't heard Buddha's teachings? > When we have the idea of 'situations' there is no > understanding at that time because these are concepts. I have no doubt that to reach maggha, one will need to have satipatthana arising frequently in most, if not all, the different situations in their lives. However, aren't there "situations" that condition Satipathanna to arise, even if the "situations" may vary from one person to another (not uniform as might have been suggested by some). I distinctively remember some member in this group mentioning that considering dhamma, and posting to this list are conditions for the person for Satipatthana to arise. > Regardless of whether one is in 'formal practice', the > cinema or the Californian surf, there are realities > which have to be understood correctly intellectually > and then directly as they appear, one at a time. Again, when one's memory about everything real just being a dhatu is still not firm and prevelent, isn't it possible that the conditions causing the arising of such memories (such as reading about dhammas) be indirect conditions of satipatthana? > Consideration of dhamma is essential. Listening or > reading (as we're doing here) in order to consider is > essential. All kinds of kusala can be a support > condition. However, it depends on different > accumulations how generous someone is and whether, for > example, any samatha has been developed. We know that > some in the Buddha's time attained jhanas and some > didn't. Some people were generous and some were > stingy, but they could all develop satipatthana if > they had heard about realities and saw the value in > developing satipatthana. You are saying here that the conditions for Satipatthan that I am asking about would vary from one person or another. There is no fixed answer that applies to everybody that says, "doing this, satipatthana is more likely to arise". Is this what you are saying? > > Akusala (unwholesomeness) of any kind cannot be a > direct condition for satipatthana. Akusala Would you explain in more details about "direct" and "indirect" conditions? > When there is awareness of an akusala citta or > cetasika(mental factor), there is no akusala at that > moment. Desire leads to more desire regardless of the > object. Desire for sati is definitely a hindrance even > though the desire can be the object of sati at another > moment. It totally makes sense to me why desire leads to more desire, or why dana leads to more dana. When something arises, it also accumulates as anusaya. The more accumulation, the more likely it can be easily agitated and arises. The one argument that I still don't fully understand, although repeated to me many times by serveral people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance for sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no sati, but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, the desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can be a indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire for sati to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija believing something is sati while it is not. On the other hand, if there is a firm understanding as well as a firm direct panna of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a direct hindrance to sati to arise? I can certainly understand how frequent satipatthana can be a condition for less desire for sati to arise. This is because when it becomes firmer that all realities are conditioned, and that desire for sati can only be a weaker condition for satipatthana (object-predominance, aramana, as you have mentioned), unlike kusala dhammas which can be much stronger conditions, that the desire wouldn't arise so often. > Avijja > (ignorance) is very tricky however, as Robert has > discussed. It's so easy to have just a teeny hankering > for that sati and to be trying to direct it rather > than just being aware of whatever nama or rupa appears > without minding what or when. I can see this point how Avijja could fool somebody into believing that they are having sati while they are not. Desire for sati certainly are very strong condition for Avijja. kom 3187 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: Intro Hello Amara, I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. I have studied universal laws through the western traditions for most of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of the elements which as everyone would know are the building blocks of creation and the underlying structure of penetrating into the universal laws. This was one of the first things I was taught when I entered the path of light. Since there is only one true universal law, we are looking at the same thing through a different cultural perpective. I am very drawn to the Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers the cultivator. From what I have seen on my current level of understanding, it is a very pure path. Most of the western traditions that I have looked at have lost there purity due to cultural saturation into the systems. This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the last 13 years. Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? regards.....Mark > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is > soft or hard > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, > saturates or coheres > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is > hot or cold > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion > or tension > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love to > hear from you, > > Amara 3188 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Intro mark you might find this handy for quick pali reference http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html and in-depth articles beginning here may also help http://www.dhammastudy.com/engindex.html the writings are graded, so if what you're reading seems too technical, you can always drop back a level...i know i'm constantly going back to the "beginner" section... bruce At 06:47 2001/02/04 -0000, you wrote: > Hello Amara, > I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English > that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. > I have studied universal laws through the western traditions for most > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of the elements which > as everyone would know are the building blocks of creation and the > underlying structure of penetrating into the universal laws. This was > one of the first things I was taught when I entered the path of light. > Since there is only one true universal law, we are looking at the same > thing through a different cultural perpective. I am very drawn to the > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers the cultivator. > From what I have seen on my current level of understanding, it is a > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that I have looked at > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation into the systems. > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the last 13 years. > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > regards.....Mark > > > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising > > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is > > soft or hard > > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that > soaks, > > saturates or coheres > > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that > is > > hot or cold > > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion > > or tension > > > > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the above we would love > to > > hear from you, > > > > Amara > 3189 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:09pm Subject: Re: Intro > I found the info very interesting, the parts that where in English > that is. Where can I get some translation on some of these words like > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. Dear Mark, The same book I mentioned before also explained the terms a little earlier in the chapter from which I quoted the passage I sent you, in this section: The Four Paramattha-dhamma Citta is the reality preeminent in experiencing that which appears such as seeing and hearing. There are altogether 89 types of citta or 121 in specifics. Cetasika is another kind of reality that arises concurrently with a citta experiences the same object, falls away at the same instant, and arises at the same location. Each cetasika has distinct characteristics and functions according to its type. There are altogether 52 types of cetasika. Rupa is the reality that is not consciousness such as colors, sounds, smells and tastes. There are altogether 28 types of rupa. Nibbana is the reality that eradicates defilements and ends sufferings. There are no conditions for Nibbana it, therefore, does not arise or fall away. (End quote.) This book is rather long and contains another section on the rupa, in the Appendix: Rupa, chapter also to be found in the same website, advanced section, 'Summary...' Anumodana in your studies, and hope you find what you are looking for, Amara 3190 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:12pm Subject: Re: Intro > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > regards.....Mark Dear Mark, I just saw that I had missed another question, but I'm not sure what do you mean by this? Amara 3191 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Mike This is a very interesting post. You have raised questions here that we all need to consider. --- "m. nease" wrote: > By the way, I thought I'd post a few links to > references in the suttas to 'formal meditation'. > There are a lot more where these came from--these > were > just a few I could find on-line. The context of > each > is different, of course, and I'm not taking them out > of context to suggest a kind of endorsement. I > think > they do make it clear, though, that the Buddha did > teach 'formal meditation' (as well as 'going > forth--they seem closely connected), in case anyone > were in doubt. It also seems clear to me that, in > these citations, he is not referring to either > 'seclusion' or 'bhikkhus' in a figurative or > metaphoric sense. One of these was actually > addressed > by the Buddha to a layman--but still referred to > monks. Just a quick preliminary comment on the passages you have helpfully given. Apart from the context of the particular occasion and audience (as you have mentioned), there is also the context of the whole body of suttas to consider, not to mention of course the abhidhamma also. The suttas contain many shades of exhortation, admonition and advice by the Buddha. When reading a particular sutta it is important to figure out whether the Buddha is saying, for example, one or other of the following- I exhort you to do X Doing X will be for your benefit Doing X will lead to enlightenment If X is done, Y will be the result The conditions for achieving X are Y More if X will lead to more of Y When doing X, then ... [eg. ... if Y is done then Z will be the result or something else again. At a brief glance, I think that most of the excerpts you have given fall into the first limb of the last-mentioned category (ie. when a person is doing/has done X). The actual ‘meat’ of the piece will be found in what follows. In other words, the Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these passages that we should all be doing X. Much may depend on the translator’s perspective of the dhamma. Those convinced of the need for a formal practice are much more likely to translate passages such as these in a way consistent with that view. It is sometimes necessary to go back to the original Pali to get the true meaning. Like every aspect of the Dhamma, reading the suttas is not as straight forward as at first sight it appears. The subtleties are easy to misinterpret (one reason for this would no doubt be the difference in levels of understanding of the Buddha’s audience then as compared to us now – at least in my view!). Looking forward to others’ comments on these passages. Jon ______________________________________________________ > After his meal, returning from his alms round, he > sits > down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and > brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 2 > Samańńaphala Sutta > The Fruits of the Contemplative Life > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html > _______________________________________________________ > > "Come you, monk, choose a remote lodging in a > forest, > at the root of a tree, on a mountain slope, in a > wilderness, in a hill-cave, a cemetery, a forest > haunt, in the open or on a heap of straw.' He > chooses > a remote lodging in the forest...or on a heap of > straw. Returning from alms-gathering, after the > meal, > he sits down cross-legged, holding the back erect, > having made mindfulness rise up in front of him... > > Majjhima Nikaya 125 > Dantabhumi Sutta > The Discourse on the "Tamed Stage" > Translated from the Pali by I.B. Horner > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn125.html > _______________________________________________________ > "...he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the > shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside > cave, > a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a > heap > of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms > round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his > body > erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 11 > Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta > To Kevatta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html > _______________________________________________________ > Here, Rahula, one goes into the forest, to the roots > of a tree, or to an empty room, sits down > cross-legged > and holds the body upright, keeping mindfulness > present. > > Maha Rahulovada Sutta > > translated by Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei > and Tory Cox > > http://www.wwzc.org/translations/mahaRahulovada.htm > _______________________________________________________ > Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far > from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body > held > erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that > were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, > without suffering. > > Kamma Sutta (Ud III.1) > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud3.html > _______________________________________________________ > Now at that time Ven. Revata the Doubter was sitting > not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his > body held erect, reflecting on [his] purification > through the overcoming of doubt. > > Udana V.7 > Revata Sutta > About Revata > > http://www.vipassana.com/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud5-7.html > _______________________________________________________ > "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the > wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty > building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, > holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to > the > fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he > breathes out. > > Majjhima Nikaya 118 > Anapanasati Sutta > Mindfulness of Breathing > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > _______________________________________________________ > "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to > the > wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty > building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, > holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to > the > fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he > breathes out. > > Majjhima Nikaya 119 > Kayagata-sati Sutta > Mindfulness Immersed in the Body > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn119.html 3192 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 3:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan I have enjoyed your recent posts and the discussion that has ensued. Just a couple of comments for further discussion. --- wrote: > Formal practice, if done correctly, can be > enormously helpful. In my > reading of the Suttas, it is essential for > liberation. After all, I > don't think Buddha included "right concentration" in > the eightfold > path without good reason! Are you not equating samatha with formal practice? I do not find any support for the ides of a ‘formal practice’ in the passages you have quoted or referred us to. > What does "right concentration" mean? According to > Samyutta Nikaya > (XLV.8): "There is the case where a monk -- quite > withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) > qualities -- enters & > remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born > from withdrawal, > accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With > the stilling of > directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains > in the second > jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of awareness > free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. With > the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, > mindful, & fully > alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He > enters & remains in > the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & > mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the > abandoning of > pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance > of elation & > distress -- he enters & remains in the > fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, > neither pleasure nor > pain. This is called right concentration." The question is, is the Buddha saying here that the practice of samatha is a precondition for developing understanding? Or is he addressing a particular audience who has attained, or has the potential for attaining in this lifetime, a high level of samatha? > Does this mean that jhana is requisite to > enlightenment? Well, from my > reading of Abhidhammatha sangaha, supramundane > absorption occurs only > with concentration at the first jhana level or > beyond. > However, the Mahanidana sutta (and other scripture) > supports the > notion of the dry insight worker, but magga and > phala still appear to > require 1st jhana (at least for a moment). How can > this level of > concentration be developed without "formal > practice"? Yes, magga and phala citta are accompanied by concentration equivalent to the level of jhana (there is explanation of this in Visuddhimagga that is worth looking at). But it is a big leap to say that this means there must be a formal practice or even the development of samatha as something separate and distinct from satipatthana. Should we not be asking instead the question, how does one begin to develop the understanding that leads eventually to magga citta (or, if jhana rather than magga citta is the goal, to jhana citta)? Jon 3193 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Intro Dear Mark, Yes, you've come to the right place to ask questions and look forward to talking to you later when I have a little more time. In addition to Amara's and Bruce's suggestions, I also highly recommend you look at 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' by Nina Van Gorkom which luckily (for you) Amara and colleagues have recently adding to the same website Bruce refers you to. I think it will answer many of your questions, but not overnight!!! Please tell us anything more you care to about your research project and yourself. Thanks, Sarah --- bruce wrote: > mark you might find this handy for quick pali > reference > http://www.dhammastudy.com/gloss.html > > and in-depth articles beginning here may also help > http://www.dhammastudy.com/engindex.html > > the writings are graded, so if what you're reading > seems too technical, you > can always drop back a level...i know i'm constantly > going back to the > "beginner" section... > > bruce > > > At 06:47 2001/02/04 -0000, you wrote: > > Hello Amara, > > I found the info very interesting, the parts that > where in English > > that is. Where can I get some translation on some > of these words like > > rupa for instance or arammana, citta amd cetasika. > > I have studied universal laws through the western > traditions for most > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge > of the elements which > > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > creation and the > > underlying structure of penetrating into the > universal laws. This was > > one of the first things I was taught when I > entered the path of light. > > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > looking at the same > > thing through a different cultural perpective. I > am very drawn to the > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it > offers the cultivator. > > From what I have seen on my current level of > understanding, it is a > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions > that I have looked at > > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > into the systems. > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > last 13 years. > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > base energies? > > regards.....Mark > > > > > The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, > presiding rupa) comprising > > > 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : > the rupa which is > > > soft or hard > > > 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): > the rupa that > > soaks, > > > saturates or coheres > > > 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): > the rupa that > > is > > > hot or cold > > > 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): > the rupa of motion > > > or tension > > > > > > > > If you would like to discuss or comment on the > above we would love > > to > > > hear from you, > > > > > > Amara > > 3194 From: Date: Sun Feb 4, 2001 7:01pm Subject: Re: Nirodha yes thanks for posting this Robert i have heard that the principles, qualities and processes of fire was seen as of critical importance to vedic people. Buddha was aware of this as he was born and lived as a member of that community. I have an interest in his use of the way Buddha used the language and religious and spiritual practices of the times to communicate the Dharma. --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > --- <> wrote: > > My understanding is that the term Nirodha, like the term > Nirvana > where in use at the time of Buddha for the purposes of > describing > qualities of fire. I understand that when Buddha used these > terms > they had an extra deep meaning for those in the community he was > > brought up in. For example I have heard that the followers of > the Vedic tradition at > the time understood that fire existed without fuel and that > flame was > produced when fire attached itself to fuel. Buddha used these > metaphors to have them understand what he was teaching them. > Nirodha > also being a quality of fire, or describing a quality. I am > interested in what that understanding was that Buddha was > imparting > to them in using this term.>>>>>>> > > Dear Antony, > The metaphor of fire is a very good one to help us of today-not > just those ancient ones- understand nibbana. > There are only 4 types of paramattha dhamma (Fundamental > elements ). These are citta cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The > first three can be classified in different ways- such as the > khandas- aggregates, dhatus- elements, ayatanas-sensefields, Or > as simply nama and rupa. These fundamental phenomena are in us > and around us- there is nothing else. They arise and pass away > so fast that we have the illusion that "we' exist, that there > are things that last such as cars and computers. This is a deep > perversion of perception that is so hard to overcome. > To look at the fire analogy in a simple way: the fuel is craving > and ignorance. The fire is nama and rupa (ie the khandas). Once > that fuel is no longer being added (upon attainment of arahant) > the fire will soon die out(parinibbana). > Robert > 3195 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:34am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom and Sarah, Between the two of you I'm totally out of my depth, but something Kom asked about was something I've thought about too: --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > The one argument that I still don't fully > understand, although repeated to me many times by > serveral > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > for > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > sati, > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > the > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > be a > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > for sati > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > believing > something is sati while it is not. On the other > hand, if > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > direct panna > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > direct > hindrance to sati to arise? Could the problem be that we're using 'desire' to refer to more than one cetasika? e.g.: "Just as, monks, the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the sun, so possession of desire (chanda) is the forerunner, the harbinger of the arising of the ariyan eightfold way." SN5.45.4.2.3, From 'Cetasikas', p 116. Chanda was also mentioned in one of the suttas recently posted by Kom (thanks for both of those and for your comments, Khun Kom): "...There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire [chanda] arises..." Majjhima Nikaya 95 Canki Sutta With Canki http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html Does this have any bearing? mike 3196 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana Thanks for the comments, Jon. Sometimes it seems like many comments on the board discourage people from meditating. This seems contrary to so much that I have read in the suttas (misinterpreted?), learned from meditation teachers (heretics?), and experience (deluded?), that I can't fathom why anyone in this group would discourage meditators. It must be accidental and the tone really isn't intended. Or maybe it's just that I am hearing wrong and the tone isn't really one of discouragement. Or perhaps my practice has not brought me enough bitter fruits yet to realize how wrong it is to practice meditation. Didn't Buddha encourage people to meditate? Is there anything in the suttas that says something like: "Don't meditate. It is no better than going to shows because satipatthana can arise at any time. Besides, there's nothing you can do to walk on the path. If you are destined to follow the path, then you will. Otherwise, you won't. Go ahead and read about the Dhamma instead of meditating. Maybe in some future birth your destiny might change. Good luck (because that's really all there is too it)! And try not to get depressed!" I haven't read anything like that in the suttas, but I have only read the Majjhima Nikaya, Udana, Itivuttaka, Dhammapada, and half of Digha Nikaya (and a few assorted other things). Maybe I'm just missing something, but more likely the tone of the anti-meditation posts is getting warped from the translation from posters' brains, to board, to my brain. Why not meditate? 3197 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > The suttas contain many shades of exhortation, > admonition and advice by the Buddha. When reading a > particular sutta it is important to figure out > whether > the Buddha is saying, for example, one or other of > the > following- > > I exhort you to do X > Doing X will be for your benefit > Doing X will lead to enlightenment > If X is done, Y will be the result > The conditions for achieving X are Y > More if X will lead to more of Y > When doing X, then ... [eg. ... if Y is done then Z > will be the result > > or something else again. Very good--you're right, of course. > At a brief glance, I think that most of the excerpts > you have given fall into the first limb of the > last-mentioned category (ie. when a person is > doing/has done X). The actual ‘meat’ of the piece > will be found in what follows. In other words, the > Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these > passages > that we should all be doing X. Not at all. These audiences (as I think Khun Kom pointed out) have some specifics in common. > Much may depend on the translator’s perspective of > the > dhamma. Those convinced of the need for a formal > practice are much more likely to translate passages > such as these in a way consistent with that view. > It > is sometimes necessary to go back to the original > Pali > to get the true meaning. So do you think that the idea that 'formal meditation' existed in the Buddha's day may be entirely the result of mistranslations? Or that the 'formal meditation' mentioned was always and exclusively samatha bhavana, and that passages suggesting otherwise are mistranslations? > Like every aspect of the Dhamma, reading the suttas > is > not as straight forward as at first sight it > appears. True--'deep, subtle, hard to grasp', etc... > The subtleties are easy to misinterpret (one reason > for this would no doubt be the difference in levels > of > understanding of the Buddha’s audience then as > compared to us now – at least in my view!). Maybe so... Thanks for your comments... mike 3198 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 7:13am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Mike, Thanks for the pointing out the possible misinterpretation of the word desire. When I say "desire" in my message, I strictly meant "lobha", which can be only akusala. (Chanda, on the other hand, can be kusala, akusala, or neither. While there is lobha, Chanda also arises with it. When there is sati, chanda also arises with it.) kom > -----Original Message----- > > The one argument that I still don't fully > > understand, although repeated to me many times by > > serveral > > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > > for > > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > > sati, > > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > > the > > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > > be a > > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > > for sati > > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > > believing > > something is sati while it is not. On the other > > hand, if > > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > > direct panna > > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > > direct > > hindrance to sati to arise? > 3199 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 8:21am Subject: Re:Intro > >Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 07:12:29 -0000 > From: "Amara" >Subject: Re: Intro > > > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these base energies? > > regards.....Mark > > >Dear Mark, > >I just saw that I had missed another question, but I'm not sure what >do you mean by this? > >Amara > > Hello Amara, Most systems of enlightenment have methods of manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and earth. Manifesting the fire principle for instance increases heat in the body as well as strengthening the will power. It is also good for learning to detach from emotions ruled by this element. Each element has its span of control within the emotional self. Manifesting and mastering each element leads to detachment of those related emotions. There are also many metaphysical tricks that come as a byproduct of this training which are considered traps for those without pure intention so they cannot develop further if they become to attached to these metaphysical tricks or miracles as some people put them. But they are not miracles, just mind working in unison with universal laws. Warm regards.......Mark 3200 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re:Intro > Most systems of enlightenment have methods of manifesting the elements of > fire, air, water and earth. > Manifesting the fire principle for instance increases heat in the body as > well as strengthening the will power. It is also good for learning to detach > from emotions ruled by this element. Each element has its span of control > within the emotional self. Manifesting and mastering each element leads to > detachment of those related emotions. > There are also many metaphysical tricks that come as a byproduct of this > training which are considered traps for those without pure intention so they > cannot develop further if they become to attached to these metaphysical > tricks or miracles as some people put them. But they are not miracles, just > mind working in unison with universal laws. Dear Mark, I am not familiar with these kinds of teachings in the Tipitaka. Could you cite a passage where this is found in the texts or the Commentaries? From my own studies the Buddha never relied on the rupa (all realities that are not intelligence that can experience or know something) but mental development to understand realities as they really are. Fire for example, as in utu (which is defined as temperature) is the dhatu (element) that keeps our bodies warm and is one of the causes for some kinds of rupa to arise which we take for our bodies. When we feel the warmth of our bodies for example touching our palms to our foreheads now, the warmth experienced through the body sense cannot be experienced through other senses (dvara) such as the eyes or the ears. Still be believe the temperature (utu, fire, whatever) is us, our body, our head, whereas in reality it only appears through the body sense as warmth. The rest is thinking. The four elements, as you saw in an earlier message, compose all rupa, which includes our bodies. Utu (temperature), as you saw, can be experienced, as can hardness/softness (earth element, pathavi-dhatu, whatever you call it) and vayo-dhatu (wind, tension/motion) which you can feel touching for example a balloon filled with air, or when you move your hand back and forth rapidly. But the Buddha also teaches that some elements cannot be physically experienced, like apo-dhatu (water element: the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres) which we could understand and think about its quality through the mind dvara (sense door). I would think it difficult to rely on the rupa to help understand realities except through our study of their characteristics as they appear to our senses to be experienced, which is Pali is called arammana (objects known or experienced by the senses or citta through different ways or 'dvara'). In that capacity (of arammana or objects experienced) they are very important indeed, we all live in the world of sense objects, and would do almost anything to experience the right sights, sounds, smells, tastes and body sense contacts. Only the knowledge of things as they really are could gradually lessen our attachments, indeed blind enslavement to them and our own demands for them. The study of the rupa, to me, is also to show that what we take for our selves and for our world are just attachment to different elements that arise and fall away from conditions, always changing, impermanent, under no one's control. I would be interested to see your texts teaching other things, expecially if it comes from the Tipitaka and Commentaries, (other texts do not carry much weight for me, though.) Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3201 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 1:34pm Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: >In other words, the > Buddha is not to be taken as saying in these passages > that we should all be doing X. Dear Jonothan and others, It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta for a specific individual or a group of individuals. However, if we say that whatever he taught was not really for us and we should not all do the same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's that we are reading? I remember that in one of the previous post, we mentioned that the 3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all point to the same Path to liberation. Best regards, Alex Tran 3202 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 3:58pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom & Mike, Mike, firstly, thanks for the clarification on desire. I'd also noticed the use of desire for chanda throughout the sutta Kom referred us to and it may have caused confusion for others too. Here, like Kom, I was assuming that we were talking about lobha which is always akusala. Back to chanda later! Kom, There's lots of good reflection and many useful comments and pertinent questions in your post below. None of this is easy, but let's see.... --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear > Can there be no Satipathanna without hearing > Buddha's > teaching? I don't mean the "development" of > Satipatthana, > but just one brief moment of Satipatthana without > knowing > what it is? I doubt there can be awareness of a reality as a reality, e.g. seeing as seeing, a nama (not self), if we haven't heard this. It maybe we've heard it but been told someone else said it, but still we have to hear it first and this was true even for the great arahats like Sariputta. Even if one sentence was adequate, there had to be that one sentence before any satipatthana could develop. That's why there was no development of the 8-fold path leading to enlightenment before the Buddha began to teach, not even a beginning, even though the experience of jhanas and other practices using very advanced levels of concentration were common. >I can't see how you can "develop" > Satipatthana > without knowing what Sati is or what its benefits > are (and > for that, you definitely need to hear Buddha's > teachings). > But can there not be moments of Satipatthana for > someone who > haven't heard Buddha's teachings? What is the development if it isn't moments of satipatthana. This is how it begins. Just one moment of awareness of a reality and then another. One brick at a time. > I have no doubt that to reach maggha, one will need > to have > satipatthana arising frequently in most, if not all, > the > different situations in their lives. However, > aren't there > "situations" that condition Satipathanna to arise, > even if > the "situations" may vary from one person to another > (not > uniform as might have been suggested by some). I > distinctively remember some member in this group > mentioning > that considering dhamma, and posting to this list > are > conditions for the person for Satipatthana to arise. > Good points and tricky points! We've discussed sappaya sampajanna (knowledge of what is suitable), knowing what is suitable and I used to think that this referred to having a dhamma discussion or going on a trip to India or being quiet in the forest. Now I understand it to relate to the present reality. If there is awareness now of seeing, then seeing while sitting here at the computer is sappaya samapjanna. It may mean that for one person, there tends to be more awareness while sitting at the computer and for another, more awareness while walking in the jungle and for a third while hanging on to a rail on the subway and for a fourth while sitting cross-legged in a temple. We all have different tendencies. However, whenever we have the idea that X is the time and place for developing sati and not Y, it indicates a clinging to self, to situation, to someTHING, with no sati at that time. Who knows about the next moment? Who knows what the next reality will be? Who knows whether there will be any sati? Expectation and clinging will not help. > > Again, when one's memory about everything real just > being a > dhatu is still not firm and prevelent, isn't it > possible > that the conditions causing the arising of such > memories > (such as reading about dhammas) be indirect > conditions of > satipatthana? Very possible. However, if one reads expecting and hoping for sati or with the idea that there will be sati at this time and not at others, it's not useful. Even when we're reading dhamma, it all depends on the citta (consciousness) at that time. For example, we may read with wrong view of realities, or day-dream or try to cram in or memorise the information with lobha. Moments of intellectual right understanding which MUST be kusala are very useful. The many more moments of akusala cittas are not. Lots of opportunities for 'cheating' dhammas here! > > You are saying here that the conditions for > Satipatthan that > I am asking about would vary from one person or > another. > There is no fixed answer that applies to everybody > that > says, "doing this, satipatthana is more likely to > arise". > Is this what you are saying? What I'm saying (or trying to say) is that understanding reality at this moment, the present moment is what is essential for us all. We've heard, read and considered quite a lot. Now what about being aware of a reality now? Otherwise we keep looking for the ideal situation or the right time and forget all about what has alredy been conditioned already. That's why saddha (confidence) is very important. Confidence in the power of panna to know the reality now. Confidence that the only world at this moment is that appearing through one of the doorways now for a moment. The more understanding develops of seeing, hearing and the other realities, the less inclined one is to think one should follow the other to the cinema, Hong Kong Peak, the meditation centre, the root of the tree and even India in order to have more sati. One understands that we all lead different lifestyles and have different accumulations and satipatthana can develop at any time or place. > > > Would you explain in more details about "direct" and > "indirect" conditions? I know you have read a lot about paccaya (conditions) and know how complex they are!! This is why I made the reference to the indirect conditions. For all practical purposes and for this discussion, we can say that kusala cittas always condition more kusala cittas and as we know some kusala cetanas (intentions) act as kamma to bring kusala vipaka (results). In the same way, akusala cittas lead to more akusala. Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) such as dana or samatha are indirect conditions in that at those moments the citta is free from akusala. However, as we've discussed, someone can be very kind, generous and calm and yet know nothing about realities. > > It totally makes sense to me why desire leads to > more > desire, or why dana leads to more dana. When > something > arises, it also accumulates as anusaya. The more > accumulation, the more likely it can be easily > agitated and > arises. The one argument that I still don't fully > understand, although repeated to me many times by > serveral > people, is why desire for sati is a direct hindrance > for > sati to arise. While there is desire, there is no > sati, > but in order for sati to arise cognizing the desire, > the > desire must have ceased. I can see how desire can > be a > indirect hindrance to sati. When there is desire > for sati > to arise, there may be micha-dithi or avija > believing > something is sati while it is not. On the other > hand, if > there is a firm understanding as well as a firm > direct panna > of what sati is, then how could desire for sati be a > direct > hindrance to sati to arise? What I find is that the more panna develops (and Kom, let me make it clear I'm only talking about kindergarten levels), the less desire for sati there is, the less minding about it there is, by conditions. I used to think about having sati (with desire) quite a lot and now I very seldom do so. This isn't because I'm trying not to, but because the more one sees how useless it is, the less conditions there are for that kind of thinking. Clinging with ignorance (which is what desire is) blinds us from the truth and leads to more clinging. When we want more sati, more metta, and even to be a better person, it shows the clinging to self. There is no detachment of the reality appearing. The moments of kusala chanda (as you know) are very few and far between and a close enemy, akusala desire (for sati), masquerades very well as being noble and useful. Both are accompanied by pleasant feeling and can have the same object. We're very used to be influenced by the object with no understanding of the citta. If it's desire while watching a movie. we don't need to be told it's akusala, but don't we kid ourselves that if the object is sati or other noble qualities that the citta must be O.K.? > > I can certainly understand how frequent satipatthana > can be > a condition for less desire for sati to arise. This > is > because when it becomes firmer that all realities > are > conditioned, and that desire for sati can only be a > weaker > condition for satipatthana (object-predominance, > aramana, as > you have mentioned), unlike kusala dhammas which can > be much > stronger conditions, that the desire wouldn't arise > so > often. When we talk about conditions, we should remember that it's only theoretical. This is not to say it's not correct or even useful. However, satipatthana at this moment does not depend on thinking, but on direct understanding and awareness of the reality appearing. > > I can see this point how Avijja could fool somebody > into > believing that they are having sati while they are > not. > Desire for sati certainly are very strong condition > for > Avijja. I think I'd say it the other way. Avijja is a very strong condition for desire for sati. Kom, I really appreciate your honest and sincere questions and comments. I'm not sure my comments do justice to them at all, so please let me know if anything isn't clear. This is useful for me too. Best regards, Sarah p.s Mike & Kom, I meant to refer back to the sutta but I fear this is over-long already!! 3203 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan I do understand your frustration. But at the risk of exacerbating it further … --- <>wrote: > > Why not meditate? I know you see this as a question about the teachings. But is it in fact so? If you had to rephrase this using expressions found in the suttas – without deviation, as you would put it – how would it read? Then we would have a much better basis for discussion, I think. Yes, I do have a problem with the term ‘meditation’, because I have no way of knowing what someone means when they use it. Jon 3204 From: Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:05pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, holding the body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing in; mindful breathing out." Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some obviously do it better than others. Those who are accomplished at it were at one time unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice? Reading, thinking, talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written over and over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pańńa bhavanamaya pańńa" (All the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means of development). What is that "bhavanamaya pańńa"? Very clearly it is not the pańńa derived from reading (sutamayapańńa), nor the pańńa derived from thinking (cintamayapańńa). It is the pańńa derived from "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, holding the body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, breathing in; mindful breathing out." Why the sitting down crosslegged with body erect? Because the practice should be done diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration. Without favorable physical conditions, it becomes much more difficult to practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration. Then, can we learn to sit down crosslegged with body erect and bring mindfulness to the fore if we practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration? It is certainly possible, but a diligent, ardent, determined, and concentrated effort is no guarantee of development (bhavanamaya pańńa). Perhaps even most people who do practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration, with crossed legs and body erect, trying to bring mindfulness to the fore have little development. Why not? Because the "trying" is rooted in lobha and moha. How, then, to bring mindfulness to the fore without "trying" (especially since we are to practice diligently, ardently, with great effort, determination, and concentration)? Trying to put it into words is very delicate and difficult. There is no foolproof prescription. However, with practice there may be results. Without practice, there won't be. After all, bringing mindfulness to the fore is not something magical. But with proper practice, mindfulness does come to the fore--more and more frequently as the practice progresses. > > Why not meditate? > > I know you see this as a question about the teachings. > But is it in fact so? If you had to rephrase this > using expressions found in the suttas – without > deviation, as you would put it – how would it read? > Then we would have a much better basis for discussion, > I think. > > Yes, I do have a problem with the term `meditation', > because I have no way of knowing what someone means > when they use it. > > Jon > > > 3205 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re:_Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Jim, Many thanks for all the detail about jhaayatha and for the helpful pali lesson. I must say, this is the kind of lesson I find very useful and interesting when the discussion of the words has so much bearing on the understanding of the sutta. I'm learning far more from you here in this way than I ever learnt from attending evening classes in London, tediously working our way through Warder. So pls don't doubt that you're already teaching pali on-line!! Best wishes, Sarah > I have put the project of translating the first part > of the Patthana > commentaries on hold for now as I'm using up too > much of my spare time > reading and responding to email messages. I'm also > occupied with studying > the Abhidhammatthasangaha, proof-reading a list of > 2000 Sanskrit roots, and > wondering whether or not I should try teaching Pali > online. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 5, 2001 10:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Alex > It's true that the Buddha taught in each sutta > for a specific > individual or a group of individuals. However, if > we say that > whatever he taught was not really for us and we > should not all do the > same thing, what is the purpose of those sutta's > that we are > reading? I think what I was trying to say, but not very clearly, was that we need to determine whether the Buddha was, for example, giving a direction or simply describing a situation. If he was saying "When a monk is on his own sitting cross-legged under a tree and mindfulness has arisen, then he may do such and such ... " we should not read this as meaning "The way to develop mindfulness is to sit cross-legged under a tree". It is more a statement of the circumstances of what comes next than an instruction to us to do something. > I remember that in one of the previous post, we > mentioned that the > 3 Baskets complement each other, and that they all > point to the same > Path to liberation. Thanks for this reminder. Not only do they complement each other, but they are each necesary to understand the other. Without the other 2 baskets, the suttas would be quite obscure to us. Jon 3207 From: alan weller Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while we are sitting because if we are in a posture then we are living in the conventional world of thinking. If there is right awareness then a characteristic of reality appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person, forest in heat. It is anatta. There is a sutta somewhere about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha. Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are the thinking about Reality??? Cheers, Alan 3208 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 0:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Mike > So do you think that the idea that 'formal > meditation' > existed in the Buddha's day may be entirely the > result > of mistranslations? I was really suggesting that the views held by a translator may influence the choice of terms when translating. This is only to be expected, of course. > Or that the 'formal meditation' > mentioned was always and exclusively samatha > bhavana, > and that passages suggesting otherwise are > mistranslations? If by ‘formal meditation’ you mean passages of the kind cited in your earlier post, I think the important thing is whether they are descriptive or prescriptive in nature. In other words whether, on a careful reading, a causal connection is intended between, say, the sitting cross-legged and the arising of awareness. Take the first of the passages you cited. ______________________________________________________ > After his meal, returning from his alms round, he > sits > down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and > brings mindfulness to the fore. > > Digha Nikaya 2 > Samańńaphala Sutta > The Fruits of the Contemplative Life > > http://www.cambodianbuddhist.org/english/website/canon/digha/dn2.html ------------------------------------------------------ Earlier in this sutta the Buddha talks about the development by the monk of virtue, sense restraint, mindfulness (sati) and alertness, and contentedness. It is clear that all of these are to be developed without limit as to any particular time, place or situation. As regards sense restraint, the Buddha talks about the 6 doors. No special occasions here. As regards mindfulness and alertness, this is to be developed when doing anything at all including ‘...when eating, drinking, chewing, and tasting...when urinating and defecating...when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, and remaining silent’. Nothing could be more all-inclusive than that! Having developed all the foregoing qualities, the monk turns to the development of jhana (preceded by the abandonment of the hindrances), and this is where your reference comes in. It is because of these qualities already developed that for such a person mindfulness can come ‘to the fore’. The monk is by that stage one who is already "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment". Such a person may well be one who "seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw." If so, then "After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." This is followed by a description of the abandoning of the hindrances and the developement of jhana. So it is only in the context of samatha bhavana of the level of jhana that seclusion and posture are mentioned in this sutta, and even then the context is in descriptive, rather than prescriptive, terms. I am not saying that all the passages you have cited do in fact appear in the contest of jhana. But I am confident that most of them will turn out to be what I have characterised as descriptive rather than prescriptive in nature. I hope this gives some food for consideration. Jon 3209 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Alan, Glad to meet you--I've heard about you from Sarah and Robert: --- alan weller wrote: > Dear all, There cannot any insight meditation while > we > are sitting because if we are in a posture then we > are > living in the conventional world of thinking. This is an interesting way of making this point. Would I be correct in paraphrasing this as, "While (the concept) 'I am sitting' is arising, insight can't arise"? > If > there > is right awareness then a characteristic of reality > appears e.g heat. There is no sitting, person, > forest > in heat. It is anatta. I think I understand what you're saying. Also no (concept of) 'heat' in heat. There's a really interesting sutta (I'll try to find it) where the formula is repeated again and again, 'this is not (something)--it is called (something). Any idea of the one I'm referring to? > There is a sutta somewhere > about the postures covering up the truth of dukkha. Interesting! I'd like to know if anyone can locate this. > Dukka is the suffering in each reality. Postures are > the thinking about Reality??? > Cheers, Alan Cheers Back At You, mike 3210 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:50am Subject: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends, I understand that we may have sati moments at any time, even while attending a wild party. However, is it true that sati may arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful? Instead of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help better if we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the wind element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of the breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are on? Do all of those activities help to develop panna? The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper! Thank you for your help. Dear Allan, It's my honor to read your post. Your Website is wonderful. Thank you. Sincerely, Alex 3211 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 1:52am Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana --- <> wrote: > > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the formal practice > > as you have defined it? I believe he became a sotapanna > > while listening to Buddha standing up. I don't believe the > > father ever listened to any teachings about Jhana before he > > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? What about > > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > Tipitaka does not say a word about the circumstances of their > training. It is hard to believe that they had no "formal" practice in > meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the canon indicates the > importance of "meditation", and, yes, even jhana (if only for brief > moments of magga and phala). Dear dan, All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash when nibbana is insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct from mundane jhanas. I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple: Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation of the therigathatthakattha. Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that she was not aware of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about from that day forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation but in another one I think it said for three years living on scraps of food naked). ...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman".. The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there and people said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But the Buddha said to let her approach. She regained her senses from the power of the Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in samsara and pain she had suffered again and again. "When he had finished speaking, she was established in the fruit of stream entry". You probably have heard of Khema. She was foremost in wisdom among bhikkuni. She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was renowned for her beauty and had great conceit about it. She would never visit the Buddha because she thought he would look on this as a fault. One day King Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the vicinity of the Buddha (under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened there and then after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful women quickly ageing. Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer and thus not given to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great care with sila is needed to attain any success in samattha thus he could not have been doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha but became a sotapanna while he was still standing with his armour listening to the Buddhas discourse. What were the conditions for their attainments if not hearing the Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must have had insight into nama and rupa because that is the only path for all ariya. In fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at the very moment they became enlightened because of their enormous prior accumulations. Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only a fool would disparage it. We should know though that it is not the same as satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many times, that been secluded is advantageous at times and we should welcome it. It can allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to be so careful to understand the conditioned nature of things. If we preference one "situation" over another it shows we are still clinging to an ideal of how insight should occur. We can say that it seems more likely that insight would occur in a quiet place which is conducive to deep contemplation - but if we take that too literally we are bound to negelect all the other moments in our life. And that means they will be taken for self. What made a difference to me - with regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere- was after speaking with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and seeing. Later I walked down sukumvit road and started to realise what it meant to investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen this a little before but all my other teachers had always emphasised awareness of body. You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. It has a become a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am not saying I have awareness often but it is like the consideration and study of things as nama and rupa is in the background just waiting for opportunities to come out. It is never enough but it is a radically different perspective on life than I would ever have imagined as a young man, or even in my first few years in buddhism. I suppose this very ordinary way of developing understanding must seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged watching the breath and attaining levels of calm. At least then one is having real evidence of something happening. And that is why I think not many people will be interested in such a gradual path that only gradually changes ones way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop both samattha and vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I just try to point out the subtleties of practice that I have seen. I still have so much to learn. robert 3212 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 2:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear alex, This path needs such courage. When we are irritated,(or even angry, confused, scared) are the times when sati can arise and see them as they are.If we don't understand them at the moments they arise when can we? by understanding I mean seeing them as anatta. Bhikkhu dhammapiyo said something to me yesterday about how the frustrations are the temper of the steel or something like that. Then again there are no rules on this path. It is such an individual matter. Sati can definitely arise to be aware of hardness while sitting- why not? And it is natural that changes in our habits disrupt us a little (or a lot). They show us our real self, the one who is full of defilements- good to see if we can understand that. I also have my little things that I do that I enjoy and relax me. I go jogging on a forest track near my house(yes we have forests in japan- all 100 acres of so of it). Sarah has been doing yoga since I have known her too. Robert --- <> wrote: > Dear Jonothan, Sarah, Alan, Kom, Mike and friends, > > I understand that we may have sati moments at any time, > even > while attending a wild party. However, is it true that sati > may > arise easier when the environment around us more peaceful? > Instead > of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it help > better if > we notice the fire element of the breath such as the heat, the > wind > element such as the touch of the breath at the opening of the > nostrils, or the earth element such as the light/heaviness of > the > breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat we are > on? Do > all of those activities help to develop panna? > > The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems > since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life > easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts > deeper! > > Thank you for your help. > > Dear Allan, > > It's my honor to read your post. Your Website is > wonderful. > Thank you. > > Sincerely, > Alex > > 3213 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex, --- <> wrote: > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! Dear Alex, Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the heart. I can only speak for myself, but your message struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation with this topic. I'm reluctant, at times, to give up the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only because of the frequent references (even if not prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I' have also seemed more prey to the hindrances. I think this makes sense, and is not a bad thing. Here's why: The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our senior students, the more inclined I am to think of all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. As has been pointed out so many times, these practices really do suppress the hindrances, even in not-so-quiet surroundings. To be angry, for example, and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the upleasant feeling arising with aversion)! Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it to do so. So these practices surely do make 'me' feel better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be free of anything; second; the defilements are never reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of sight. This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana vipassana bhavana. Assuming I understand it right, if done correctly, this results in the accumulation of pańńa which eradicates the defilements, whether latent or not--though only bit by bit, of course. So how do we practice this kind of bhavana? We don't--only satipatthana does. And what conditions the arising of satipatthana vipassana? Hearing and considering the dhamma--I THINK. By the way, I do still use the little tricks of samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated with some of the grosser defilements. But I no longer take this for vipassana--thanks to you all. mike 3214 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:06am Subject: RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering these questions repeatedly. I am also very happy for the apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain about what is the path and what is not without misleading. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: <> > [mailto:<>] > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 9:52 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for > Satipatthana > > > --- <> wrote: > > > Again, do you think Buddha's father has the > formal practice > > > as you have defined it? I believe he became > a sotapanna > > > while listening to Buddha standing up. I > don't believe the > > > father ever listened to any teachings about > Jhana before he > > > became sotapanna. What about Anathapindika? > What about > > > other ariya-householders who didn't become a bikhu? > > > > Tipitaka does not say a word about the > circumstances of their > > training. It is hard to believe that they had > no "formal" practice > in > > meditation if they were ariya. Too much of the > canon indicates the > > importance of "meditation", and, yes, even > jhana (if only for brief > > moments of magga and phala). > > Dear dan, > All ariya achieve jhana for at least the flash > when nibbana is > insighted. It is a special jhana quite distinct > from mundane jhanas. > I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan disciple: > Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) > Translation of the > therigathatthakattha. > Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so > that she was not aware > of her clothing slipping off....she wandered > about from that day > forth in circles(it doesn't say in this > translation but in another > one I think it said for three years living on > scraps of food naked). > ...and people seeing her said 'go little mad-woman".. > The buddha was preaching and she wandered near > there and people > said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". > But the Buddha said to > let her approach. She regained her senses from > the power of the > Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in > samsara and pain > she had suffered again and again. "When he had > finished speaking, she > was established in the fruit of stream entry". > > You probably have heard of Khema. She was > foremost in wisdom among > bhikkuni. > She was a consort of King Bimbisara and was > renowned for her beauty > and had great conceit about it. She would never > visit the Buddha > because she thought he would look on this as a > fault. One day King > Bimbisara's men bought her reluctantly to the > vicinity of the Buddha > (under the Kings orders.). She became enlightened > there and then > after the Buddha showed an image of a beautiful > women quickly ageing. > > Angulimala is fairly well known . he was a killer > and thus not given > to doing sila. According to the Tipitika great > care with sila is > needed to attain any success in samattha thus he > could not have been > doing that either. He tried to kill the buddha > but became a sotapanna > while he was still standing with his armour > listening to the Buddhas > discourse. > > What were the conditions for their attainments if > not hearing the > Dhamma and applying it there and then? they must > have had insight > into nama and rupa because that is the only path > for all ariya. In > fact all of these also attained mundane jhanas at > the very moment > they became enlightened because of their enormous > prior accumulations. > > Jhana is of course a greatly high kusala and only > a fool would > disparage it. We should know though that it is > not the same as > satipatthana. I think, as I have said so many > times, that been > secluded is advantageous at times and we should > welcome it. It can > allow us time to ponder and apply, but we have to > be so careful to > understand the conditioned nature of things. If > we preference > one "situation" over another it shows we are > still clinging to an > ideal of how insight should occur. We can say > that it seems more > likely that insight would occur in a quiet place > which is conducive > to deep contemplation - but if we take that too > literally we are > bound to negelect all the other moments in our > life. And that means > they will be taken for self. What made a > difference to me - with > regard to seeing how insight can arise anywhere- > was after speaking > with Khun Sujin about mindfulness of colour and > seeing. Later I > walked down sukumvit road and started to realise > what it meant to > investigate dhammas at the 6doors. I had seen > this a little before > but all my other teachers had always emphasised > awareness of body. > > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I > am is the same. With > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a > plane. It has a become > a habit to contemplate paramattha dhammas. I am > not saying I have > awareness often but it is like the consideration > and study of things > as nama and rupa is in the background just > waiting for opportunities > to come out. It is never enough but it is a > radically different > perspective on life than I would ever have > imagined as a young man, > or even in my first few years in buddhism. > > I suppose this very ordinary way of developing > understanding must > seem slow compared to sitting crosslegged > watching the breath and > attaining levels of calm. At least then one is > having real evidence > of something happening. And that is why I think > not many people will > be interested in such a gradual path that only > gradually changes ones > way of seeing. Some people may wish to develop > both samattha and > vipassana. I would not wish to discourage that. I > just try to point > out the subtleties of practice that I have seen. > I still have so much > to learn. > > robert > 3215 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 5:43am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert, Mike, Kom and friends, Thank you for your understanding and compassion. With your help, the stuck feeling gets lighter. In your explanations, I realize that I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. Talk to you all later. Sincerely, Alex 3216 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:01am Subject: another chapter Dear friends, Nina's 'Abhidhamma' chapter 12 up in the intermediate section, Amara 3217 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, Yes, the story of Potacara is very inspiring. Later (having ordained) she was washing her feet and reflecting on death when the Buddha appeared before her ans spoke and she became an arahat. She became a great teacher and was declared by the Buddha to be the best among theri's who knew the Vinaya. Sarah --- <> wrote: > --- In > I thought you might like to hear of this ariyan > disciple: > Psalms of the sisters (mrs rhys davids) Translation > of the > therigathatthakattha. > Patacara, p68 .."therat grief maddened her, so that > she was not aware > of her clothing slipping off....she wandered about > from that day > forth in circles(it doesn't say in this translation > but in another > one I think it said for three years living on scraps > of food naked). > ...and people seeing her said 'go little > mad-woman".. > The buddha was preaching and she wandered near there > and people > said "suffer not that little lunatic to come". But > the Buddha said to > let her approach. She regained her senses from the > power of the > Buddha and he spoke to her of the immense time in > samsara and pain > she had suffered again and again. "When he had > finished speaking, she > was established in the fruit of stream entry". > 3218 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 4:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] RE: [Private Note] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Kom, "apparent clear comprehension". I want to say that "apparent" should be stressed here. What I see of the path is still almost all theoretical. Because this theoretical foundation is fairly firm there arises a lot of confidence. This makes it easy for me to overestimate and think I see deeper than I really do. Once the theoretical is solid and has been tested against the hard situations that arise in life many times there is a contentment in ones understanding. This is a danger because it is merely the beginning - and it is very slow to increase from here. I think one gets to a plateau, sort of, if one is on the right way, corresponding to the accumulations of merit from the past. But to go beyond that.... Last night, after I wrote that letter, Yahoo closed my email account saying I hadn't paid my renewal of my 25meg mailbox. I had paid it 4 weeks ago. So I had to pay again and got cross and wrote a sarcastic, self-righteous letter, with a few exclamation marks thrown in for good measure. Now I am waiting for them to reply so I can apologise. Even basic wisdom is still very sluggish to arise. Robert --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Anumoddhana for your kindness and patience for answering > these questions repeatedly. I am also very happy for the > apparent clear comprehension and the ability to explain > about what is the path and what is not without misleading. > > kom > 3219 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dan > I mean: "sitting down folding the legs crosswise, > holding the body > erect and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always > mindful, breathing > in; mindful breathing out." You will have seen my comments on this passage or one like it in another post, so I won’t repeat them here. Suffice it to say that I see this passage as referring to one who has already developed mindfulness, rather than to the way of developing mindfulness. However, if there is any specific sutta reference you have in mind, I would be happy to look at it. > Can everyone do this perfectly? Of course not. Some > obviously do it > better than others. Those who are accomplished at it > were at one time > unaccomplished. How to improve if not by practice? > Reading, thinking, > talking, and writing can be helpful, but as written > over and > over in Vibhanga: "sabbapi samapannassa pańńa > bhavanamaya pańńa" (All > the wisdom of one who has attained is wisom by means > of development). > What is that "bhavanamaya pańńa"? Very clearly it is > not the pańńa > derived from reading (sutamayapańńa), nor the pańńa > derived from > thinking (cintamayapańńa). Yes and no. The bhavanamaya panna is dependent on the sutamaya panna and cintamaya panna. Don’t forget, the teaching is a gradual one. Panna can only be developed stage by stage. Listening and considering a lot are necesary before understanding of the level of bhavana can arise. If the understanding at a conceptual level is not there, the practice cannot be correct. We should not expect to be able to just jump into bhavanamaya panna. In fact, as Robert has so neatly explained, each level of panna supports the other and the development of all 3 levels occurs continuously. Jon 3220 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear mike, This is much as I see it too. I am not suggesting that samattha is wrong; rather I want to point out the the difference between wrong and right samattha and that satipatthana is something else again. As my personal priority is with satipatthana I write little about samattha. robert --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Alex, > > --- <> wrote: > > > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > > seems since I no > > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > > life easier: > > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > > concepts deeper! > Dear Alex, > > Like all your posts, this is a good one and from the > heart. I can only speak for myself, but your message > struck a familiar note pertinent to my preoccupation > with this topic. I'm reluctant, at times, to give up > the idea altogether of seated meditation(?), not only > because of the frequent references (even if not > prescriptive--thanks, Jon) to it in the suttas, but > also because, like you, since giving up all sorts of > formal practices (i.e. since discovering dsg), 'I' > have also seemed more prey to the hindrances. I think > this makes sense, and is not a bad thing. Here's why: > The more I read of the (very patient) posts of our > senior students, the more inclined I am to think of > all the practices I've given up as samatha-bhavana. > As has been pointed out so many times, these practices > really do suppress the hindrances, even in > not-so-quiet surroundings. To be angry, for example, > and then to 'drive the anger out like a peg', to > paraphrase one of the Buddha's prescriptions, and be > anger-free the next moment--what a relief (from the > upleasant feeling arising with aversion)! > > Unfortunately, this is like pushing down the lid on a > jack-in-the-box--it's gone now, but ready to come back > unreduced in any way, when the conditions arise for it > to do so. So these practices surely do make 'me' feel > better in the short run, and make 'me' feel less > vulnerable to the defilements, but this is an illusion > in more ways than one--first, of course, no 'me' to be > free of anything; second; the defilements are never > reduced in this way--just pushed temporarily out of > sight. > > This, of course, is the advantage of satipatthana > vipassana bhavana. Assuming I understand it right, if > done correctly, this results in the accumulation of > pańńa which eradicates the defilements, whether latent > or not--though only bit by bit, of course. So how do > we practice this kind of bhavana? We don't--only > satipatthana does. And what conditions the arising of > satipatthana vipassana? Hearing and considering the > dhamma--I THINK. > > By the way, I do still use the little tricks of > samatha to reduce the unpleasant feelings associated > with some of the grosser defilements. But I no longer > take this for vipassana--thanks to you all. > > mike > > > 3221 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:25pm Subject: In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", Bhikkhu Khantipalo writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and lights. It only comprises a small part of the book but it holds my interest. What do others think about the practice of the making of offerings? do you have some morning or evening practice? antony 3222 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 6:56pm Subject: Re: conditions for Satipatthana Dear Robert, You wrote: > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the same. With > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;) 3223 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: conditions for Satipatthana --- wrote: > Dear Robert, > You wrote: > > You know as the years go by it seems wherever I am is the > same. With > > people or not, in thailand, at the beach, in a plane. > But don't you just hate cleaning the house? ;) The same as being in cattle class on the long trips. My strategy for future happiness is a lottery ticket every week:) 3224 From: bruce Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi alex you wrote > The reason I'm asking these questions because it seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the concepts deeper! my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to formal sitting..and the results are: i get agitated less often and less quickly, i'm more efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have more physical and mental endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm more willing to help people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat regularly you probably know the benefits, right? and with these benefits, i really think the arising of panna might just be icing on the cake.... in short, from experience i can certainly recommend replacing so much reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas with some simple noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people on this list i've found that this is just plain easier when there is nothing else to do but sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more i notice when i am not sitting.... you also wrote: > In your explanations, I realize that > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! bruce 3225 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Antony, It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from d-l... --- wrote: > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and > lights. > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > holds my interest. > > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift, the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the giver. > do you have some morning or evening practice? I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English and sit on the floor for a while. Now I correspond on my computer. No conclusions on the virtues of either of these approaches yet... mike 3226 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Alex > I understand that we may have sati moments at any > time, even > while attending a wild party. However, is it true > that sati may > arise easier when the environment around us more > peaceful? It is tempting to think that this must be so. But it is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as I am aware. If it was true, the Buddha would have encouraged us all to strive for more peaceful surroundings. What he did encourage us to do is to develop more kusala. Note that the 2 are not synonomous, except in the (very important) sense that kusala is momentary inner peace. Instead > of observing the breath, which is a concept, does it > help better if > we notice the fire element of the breath such as the > heat, the wind > element such as the touch of the breath at the > opening of the > nostrils, or the earth element such as the > light/heaviness of the > breath? Also, may we observe how soft/hard the seat > we are on? Do > all of those activities help to develop panna? Actually, we don't need to worry about which object is appearing, since any reality can be the object od awareness. The important thing is to understand, intellectually, exactly what are the realities that make up this life as we know it. They are present now, but we are not aware of them as they really are. > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! Yes. As Mike explained, all those latent unwholesome tendencies are still there waiting to spring up like a jack-in-the-box. It takes a certain courage, I think, to develop a path which does not offer a quick fix for the unwholesomness we can see and would like to get rid of. Jon 3227 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Bruce, Ditto on the formal practice. Buddha's path is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end! Thanks. Dan 3228 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am Subject: Piti Sutta: an encouragement by Buddha for householders to develop Jhana? Came across this while searching through the suttas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-176.html I haven't looked at the commentaries for this sutta yet (but plan to this coming Sunday). In this sutta, the Buddha appears to be encouraging Anathapindika (ariya) and the 500 lay followers (lay?, not confirmed in the Thai version) to periodically enter seclusion and develop Piti. Venn. Sariputta then expounded on the Buddha's teachings, an explanation that seems to imply Jhana states. This, of course, refute what I have been saying earlier about Jhana development. Any comment? kom 3229 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:02am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Antony, I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable to be given to samana. I didn't find any, but I came across this sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti 3.html#75 I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom, has no use. On the other hand, reflections can be done without incense, flowers, and light. With the offering as a puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all: reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma. I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I have been feeling compelled to do something whenever reflecting on dhamma. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 2:26 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers > and lights. > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > holds my interest. > > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > antony > 3230 From: Date: Tue Feb 6, 2001 9:17pm Subject: A Question on a Sutta Hi, all - In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), can someone explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it from the first three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: ************************************************************************ Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta In Tandem For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." ****************************************************************** With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3231 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:51am Subject: Re: (unknown) Dear Mike, thanks for your reply to my question it is good to find a place on the internet were people are serious enough yet kind enough about their practice and how they understand it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me to reflect and learn. In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual background to speak of yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to worship and practice. I am very interested in hearing about the rituals and practices that people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly shy to discuss it. antony --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > It's nice to see you on this list, I remember you from > d-l... > > --- <> wrote: > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers and > > lights. > > > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > > holds my interest. > > > > What do others think about the practice of the > > making of offerings? > > I think that dana is wholesome depending on the gift, > the recipient, and (discernment in) the mind of the > giver. > > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > I used to recite a few reflections in Pali and English > and sit on the floor for a while. Now I correspond on > my computer. No conclusions on the virtues of either > of these approaches yet... > > mike > 3232 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:11am Subject: Re: offerings, worship, etc etc Dear Tom Thankyou for your reply I have searched through Access to insight myself looking for references. They are few and far between. Hence my question to the good people on this list. > I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I > have been feeling compelled to do something whenever > reflecting on dhamma. > I share this feeling with you. A great feeling of gratutide wells up within me. --- "Kom Tukovinit" wrote: > Dear Antony, > > I was searching through accesstoinsight for things suitable > to be given to samana. I didn't find any, but I came across > this sutta. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/itivuttaka/iti > 3.html#75 > > I think making an offerings to the Buddha (statute) without > reflections for his purity, his compassion, and his wisdom, > has no use. On the other hand, reflections can be done > without incense, flowers, and light. With the offering as a > puja (and the proper reflection), you complete all: > reflection, physical kamma, and verbal kamma. > > I don't have morning or evening practices, but recently, I > have been feeling compelled to do something whenever > reflecting on dhamma. > > kom > > > -----Original Message----- > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > > > > > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > > Bhikkhu Khantipalo > > writes of making an offering of incense, flowers > > and lights. > > > > It only comprises a small part of the book but it > > holds my interest. > > > > What do others think about the practice of the > > making of offerings? > > > > do you have some morning or evening practice? > > > > antony > > 3233 From: <> Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:56am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Jonothan, As usual, your post as well as those of other senior students clarify my confusion. Thank you for a very well thoughtful explanation. Sincerely, AT --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Alex > > > I understand that we may have sati moments at any > > time, even > > while attending a wild party. However, is it true > > that sati may > > arise easier when the environment around us more > > peaceful? > > It is tempting to think that this must be so. But it > is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far as > I am aware. 3234 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Dear howard, I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some of the types. In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana) it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't have the pali to this sutta. I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha In one section it compares those who are temporarily free (samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta (finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna. Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't use jhana as the basis for insight. This is because those who are released both ways (the other three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way. Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations in both vipassana and samattha. In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might want. robert --- wrote: > Hi, all - > > In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), > can someone > explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it > from the first > three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: > > ************************************************************************ > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > In Tandem > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at > Ghosita's monastery. > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the > monks responded. > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares > the attainment > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one > or another of > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has > developed insight > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > tranquillity, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are abandoned, > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where > a monk has > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops > tranquillity > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then > there is the > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with > insight. As he > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is > born. He follows > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, > developing it & > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent > tendencies abolished. > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." > ****************************************************************** > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 3235 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: (unknown) Dear Andy, --- wrote: > thanks for your reply to my question Always a pleasure, sir. > it is good to find a place on the internet were > people are serious > enough yet kind enough about their practice and how > they understand > it, and are willing to share in a way that allows me > to reflect and > learn. I know what you mean--one of the things that keeps me here... > In nmy family there is no religio-spiritual > background to speak of > yet I have, since very young, felt attracted to > worship and practice. Me too--but I have become very wary of that attraction. What are its roots? Do they lead out of dukkha or into more dukkha? This is so subjective, I don't mean to pontificate. This attraction, to me, is probably second only to sex and I have to be VERY careful with it. > I am very interested in hearing about the rituals > and practices that > people use. Often, in person, people are seemingly > shy to discuss it. I'm kinda shy about all this myself. But so driven (not so good a thing) to get to the bottom of these questions that I tend to dive in anyway...By the way I know that you know that belief in the efficacy of 'rituals and practices' is specifically warned against by the Buddha as a 'wrong view', right? There I go, pontificating again... mike 3236 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:36am Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta Dear Howard, I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, should get it today. Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong. Otherwise, again, it might be a problem with the translation. The ideal thing would be for us all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!! Amara 3237 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/6/01 10:13:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > Dear howard, > I don't know this sutta so will just give a little info on some > of the types. > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > pavarana) > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Unfortunately I don't > have the pali to this sutta. > I had some conversation with nina a few years back and she > translated a few sections from the Puggala-Pannatti attakattha > In one section it compares those who are temporarily free > (samaya vimutta)- these include those who have attained many > jhanas but are not arahants -with those who are asamaya vimutta > (finally emancipated.) And one of the categories of the finally > emancipated are the "sukkha vipassaka arahats" (dry-insight > workers), who have elimated all asavas through panna. > Now my guess on the fouth category you mention > "Then there is > the case where a monk's mind has its > > restlessness concerning > > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > > control. There comes > > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and > > becomes unified > > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, > > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > > it -- his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > > "Whoever -- monk or > > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, > > they all do it > > by means of one or another of these four paths." > > > This category includes the sukkha-vipassaka and also another > type who does have experience in mundane jhanas but who doesn't > use jhana as the basis for insight. > This is because those who are released both ways (the other > three categories in your sutta) must be so proficient in jhana > that it becomes preety much daily life. They are highly skilled > monks with enormous accumulations and so go by this highest way. > > Note that some who attained nibbana quickly while listening to a > discourse were not sukkha-vippassaka. They attained > enlightenment and full mastery of jhana at the same time as they > were enlightened due to their truly massive prior accumulations > in both vipassana and samattha. > In fact any of us if we accumulate the right conditions could be > released by any of these paths. But not as quickly as we might > want. > > robert > > ================================ Thanks for this. In part, you write: 'In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana) it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three hundred were "liberated by insight alone".' Now, one question is: Exactly what does "liberated by insight alone" mean. I have heard/read it said that this means without attaining the formless jhanas, but with at least *some* jhanic attainment. What interested me about this sutta is that it seems to be a *sutta*, and not just a commentary, which presents the possibility of liberation without attaining *any* jhanas, but purely through dry insight (and, of course, adequately strong concentration). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3238 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:05pm Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta Dear Howard, Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and the 4 magga in this case are: The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana, (samathappapangamam purecarika- my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises (maggo sanjati) The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc. The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha, etc. The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana knowing thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast still within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in vipassana), magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of attainment). This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no samatha practice involved except as arises in the magga citta themselves. I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai are mine, Amara If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very clear. > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > In Tandem > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case where a monk has > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. "Whoever -- monk or > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it > by means of one or another of these four paths." > ****************************************************************** > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3239 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta Thanks Amara, Could we impose on you again and could you ask someone to look at the sutta that Howard just asked me about and get the commentary on that. When you have time, of course. Robert --- Amara wrote: > > > Dear Howard, > > Khun Supee just faxed me the Thai version of the sutta, and > the 4 > magga in this case are: > > The bhikkhu develops first samatha then vipassana, > (samathappapangamam > purecarika- my pali is hopeless, so help!) and magga arises > (maggo > sanjati) > > The bhikkhu develops first vipassana then samatha, etc. > > The bhikkhu develops simultaneously vipassana and samatha, > etc. > > The bhikkhu develops having no utacca in the dhamma (vipassana > knowing > thin gs as they really are) then the citta would be steadfast > still > within as ekaggata in samaddhi (as in the five magga as in > vipassana), > magga would arise (becoming the eight magga of that level of > attainment). This last is of course the Sukkhavipassaka, no > samatha > practice involved except as arises in the magga citta > themselves. > > I am sure others could add more, the translation from the Thai > are > mine, > > Amara > > If you read the Commentaries ot this sutta it becomes very > clear. > > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > > > > > > > In Tandem > > > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > > On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at > Ghosita's > monastery. > > There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the > monks > responded. > > Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- > declares the > attainment > > of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of > one or > another of > > four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has > developed insight > > preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by > > tranquillity, > > the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues > it. As > he > > follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters > are > abandoned, > > his latent tendencies abolished. "Then there is the case > where a > monk has > > developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops > tranquillity > > preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, > > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- > his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Then there > is the > > case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with > insight. > As he > > develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is > born. He > follows > > that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, > developing it & > > pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his latent > tendencies > abolished. > > "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its > restlessness > concerning > > the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under > control. > There comes > > a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, > and > becomes unified > > & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that > path, > develops it, > > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing > it -- > his > > fetters are abandoned, his latent tendencies abolished. > "Whoever -- > monk or > > nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my > presence, they > all do it > > by means of one or another of these four paths." > > > ****************************************************************** > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a > bubble > > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering > lamp, a > > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > 3240 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 0:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce and Dan I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both lately. Bruce, perhaps in your case, the nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their new-found release. Just a couple of questions to consider here. In Bruce’s reply to Alex, he said: > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to > formal sitting..and the > results are: i get agitated less often and less > quickly, i'm more > efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have > more physical and mental > endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm > more willing to help > people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat > regularly you probably > know the benefits, right? Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as any TM'er will be happy to tell you – and scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors a true measure as to whether one is following the unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it another way, what according to the Tipitika are the indicators of progress on the path, and do they include any of these particular factors? > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > replacing so much > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > with some simple > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > on this list i've found > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > else to do but > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > i notice when i am not > sitting.... Are you saying that, to use Dan’s terminology which seems to fit exactly here, we can replace suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a person gets beyond the need to listen more and consider more? Or should the useful listening and reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and beyond)? > you also wrote: > > > In your explanations, I realize that > > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. > > hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! Well said! We might as well face it, we are all starting from the same deplorably low base! Jon 3241 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta Thanks, Amara - With metta, Howard > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > > > > > > > Yuganaddha Sutta > > Dear Howard, > > I have asked someone at the foundation to check this sutta in Thai, > should get it today. Just off the cuff I suspect it to be about the 4 > magga and not jhana, but I might be wrong. Otherwise, again, it might > be a problem with the translation. The ideal thing would be for us > all to learn Pali from Jim, I think!!! > > Amara > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3243 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 1:52pm Subject: Re: Second Mailing > I mailed the following a couple hours ago; I think it may have gotten > "lost"; my apologies if you've seen it before: > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > > pavarana) > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". Dear Howard, Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. Whenever he has the time, of course. Amara 3244 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex & friends, You've received many excellent responses and one more may be overkill, so apologies in advance if this is the case! I sympathise with your sincere question and will attempt another approach: --- <> wrote: > The reason I'm asking these questions because it > seems since I no > longer do serious "sitting", I get drowned in daily > life easier: > getting agitated and irritated faster, living in the > concepts deeper! When I no longer eat regular meals or do any exercise or get outside or have any time to myself, I tend to get irritable too. When I work too hard, have difficult students and yes, can't get out of my cattle class seat on a long trip, I too can get agitated. When my computer plays tricks with messages, gives me a frozen screen or plays up in other ways, I can easily start to loose my cool. What else? Knee problems, workmen not arriving when they say....and so on and so on. So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up computer, knee surgery.....? Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they appear, in addition to all the other realities as explained by the Buddha? Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that these activities are the real answers to overcoming the kilesa (defilements). Alex, I hope this may help a little. Very best wishes, Sarah p.s hope yr dad's doing well too. > 3245 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 2:48pm Subject: Temple design Hello All, Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? Any help would be appreciated. Mark 3246 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:22pm Subject: offerings Dear Anthony, --- wrote: > In the Wheel pulication "Lay Buddhist Practice", > What do others think about the practice of the > making of offerings? > > do you have some morning or evening practice? As Kom & Mike have suggested, it is the cittas and cetasikas (consciousness & mental states) that are important rather than the appearance or action as such. We all have different interests and lifestyles even though we're all interested in the Buddha's teachings. Personally, I don't follow any set practice though I have nothing against those who do! In the morning of late, I check messages here on dsg whilst getting dressed, having a stretch, sometimes doing some work and a quick tidy up if I can, before I go out. In the evening I may ckeck messages again, perhaps send one or two, perhaps read a little dhamma and sometimes listen to a tape of discussion with khun Sujin. I don't really set any rule. Sometimes I just have a relaxing bath, read part of a novel, phone clients (who all lead late hours in Hong Kong) or take calls or just fall asleep, too tired for anything! Like Robert, I also don't differentiate between these activities in terms of the development of satipatthana (not even the ones I don't particularly enjoy, such as ringing people late about business). No rules as far as I'm concerned! Sarah 3247 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:38pm Subject: Just subscribed Hello everybody I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a living and practicing Buddhism. I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of you. Love and respect Cybele 3248 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:42pm Subject: Re: Temple design --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello All, > Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape > building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some > advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? > Any help would be appreciated. > Mark Dear Mark, I am not aware there is one. From one of the ruins in India which was said to be a temple built by the doctor Jivaka, an expert pointed out to me that in those days such buildings were 'boat shaped', or oblong from the stone base we saw in the ground. Thai temples on the other hand have a very specific pattern through the centuries, very unlike the Indian ruins. In fact the person who told me about the Indian original is also a member of this list, a professor in these types of architecture, who writes us from time to time. Perhaps she might see your message and be able to clarify some things for you, although she is generally very busy, Amara 3249 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 3:47pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. Hi and welcome, Cybele! Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking forward to your participation very much, A fellow member of the group, Amara > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > > 3250 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:40pm Subject: Re: Second Mailing > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation > > > pavarana) > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over three > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. Dear all, With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the English translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the 'piti' and 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or rapture in kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying lobha, when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves with mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha when there is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka is 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta whenever lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study of the realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of things as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of any kind, so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or moha, but instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that moment. In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just made such great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the delight exempt from any kilesa at that very moment. Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the Thai Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta although Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of the 500 bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were sukkhavipassaka: '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja 60 attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from panna alone). I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in the commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana there would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the third (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the Tipitaka in its entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted to disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this precious interest and treasure of knowledge, Amara 3251 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi Amara Thank you for the warm welcome. I am warming up to get started! ;-) Love and respect Cybele >From: "Amara" >>> >Hi and welcome, Cybele! > >Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking >forward to your participation very much, > >A fellow member of the group, > >Amara > > 3252 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re types of arahants: Second Mailing Very helpful Amara. you have had a busy day! very interesting to read the types of arahants. I note that only 10 (out of five hundred) had attained the three vijja (I forget what the three vijja are right now): the best of the best. I believe that of the five hundred arahants who Mahakassapa assembled to rehearse the teachings at the 1st council all were of this most wonderful type. robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 > invitation > > > > pavarana) > > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over > three > > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > > > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as > well as > > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > > Dear all, > > With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: > > Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the > English > translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the > 'piti' and > 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or > rapture in > kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying > lobha, > when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves > with > mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha > when there > is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka > is > 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta > whenever > lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study > of the > realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of > things > as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of > any kind, > so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or > moha, but > instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that > moment. > > In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just > made such > great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the > delight exempt > from any kilesa at that very moment. > > > Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the > Thai > Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta > although > Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. > > In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of > the 500 > bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were > sukkhavipassaka: > > '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja > 60 > attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were > 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. > The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from > panna > alone). > > I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in > the > commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana > there > would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the > third > (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. > > Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the > Tipitaka in its > entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted > to > disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this > precious > interest and treasure of knowledge, > > Amara > > > 3253 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:21pm Subject: Re: Re types of arahants: Second Mailing > you have had a busy day! And you a very busy holiday!! Amara 3254 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi cybele welcome! since you're getting warmed up, i've got some fuel for your fire :-) can you please telling us something about your vipassana practice? re: > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka be forewarned -- that there are some folks in this group (not me!) who may think it's not possible to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... for some background, see recent postngs with titles: conditions for Satipatthana Conditions_for_pańńa Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas again, welcome aboard, and don't worry about burma responses until you have time... i think discussion of vipassana practice on this list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... bruce At 08:47 2001/02/07 -0000, you wrote: > > Hi Amara > > Thank you for the warm welcome. > I am warming up to get started! ;-) > > Love and respect > > Cybele > > >From: "Amara" > >>> > >Hi and welcome, Cybele! > > > >Thank you very much for the wonderful introduction, and looking > >forward to your participation very much, > > > >A fellow member of the group, > > > >Amara > > 3255 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Cybele, I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a little quiet lately! You certainly have a varied and colourful background and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the countries where you're resident for now. We like to consider the group as a growing happy family or group of friends. You'll see from recent posts that there are many different views and interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to share these views I think. Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again for sharing your details. Sarah p.s glad you've found some old friends too! 3256 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi Bruce >hi cybele > >welcome! Thank you! > >since you're getting warmed up, i've got >some fuel for your fire :-) can you >please telling us something about >your vipassana practice? re: > > > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > > learned in Sri Lanka > >be forewarned -- >that there are some folks in this group >(not me!) who may think it's not possible >to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, no mercy at all. I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) Really bare bones meditation... >for some background, >see recent postngs with titles: >conditions for Satipatthana >Conditions_for_paé‘a >Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. But please give me support, don't let me down. > >again, welcome aboard, and don't worry >about burma responses until you have time... >i think discussion of vipassana practice on this >list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... > >bruce okay but I will not neglect it. anyway I agree and confide this discussion can be really worthwhile.. I am glad to jump aboard. Cybele 3257 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan thanks for your excellent response....time is tight this week, so i'll hold off on a lengthy answer until, say, the weekend... for now, i have just one question, basically for everybody who is toeing this listen-and-consider-only party line, a question that might just help break through the "formal-practice" logjam: ***what exactly are you doing when you are "considering" dhammas??*** bruce At 12:23 2001/02/07 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce and Dan > > I am enjoying the robust posts coming from you both > lately. Bruce, perhaps in your case, the > nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their > new-found release. > > Just a couple of questions to consider here. > > In BruceĆŌ reply to Alex, he said: > > my experience exactly....and thus i've returned to > > formal sitting..and the > > results are: i get agitated less often and less > > quickly, i'm more > > efficient, my timing and balance is better, i have > > more physical and mental > > endurance, i can solve problems more quickly, i'm > > more willing to help > > people, and i'm much more *content*....if you've sat > > regularly you probably > > know the benefits, right? > > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you Ėand > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? > > > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > > replacing so much > > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > > with some simple > > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > > on this list i've found > > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > > else to do but > > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > > i notice when i am not > > sitting.... > > Are you saying that, to use DanĆŌ terminology which > seems to fit exactly here, we can replace > suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and > cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and > consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? > Again, any support for this in the texts, ie that a > person gets beyond the need to listen more and > consider more? Or should the useful listening and > reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and > beyond)? > > > you also wrote: > > > > > In your explanations, I realize that > > > I've been deep in lobha, dosa, and moha. > > > > hey don't sweat it, welcome to the club! > > Well said! We might as well face it, we are all > starting from the same deplorably low base! > > Jon > 3258 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi cybele > Wow you are a trichy man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling caldron, > no mercy at all. > I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) > Really bare bones meditation... ha ha! no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time i don't have time for long replies at the moment either, and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully... > Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. > But please give me support, don't let me down. if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from the same place, in terms of formal practice.....but we may both get our brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than mine >;-b... bruce 3259 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Sarah >Dear Cybele, > >I'm very glad you've found us (thanks Rob) and >thankyou for your interesting and warm intro. We have >another Brazilian member, Leonardo, but he's been a >little quiet lately! Thanks for the welcome, it's encouraging. Please give Robert not only the merit but also the blame, in case of necessity! Joking rob... Well I am a Brazilian a bit nomadic but nice if we catch up for a South American touch. > >You certainly have a varied and colourful background >and maybe you'll meet some of our members in the >countries where you're resident for now. Would be wonderful, my pleasure. > >We like to consider the group as a growing happy >family or group of friends. You'll see from recent >posts that there are many different views and >interpretations of the Dhamma, but this is all very >healthy and it can be both interesting and fun to >share these views I think. Yes I agree and is what I found most stimulating. I don't share a conventional and intransigent approach, I like the possibility of being creative in the practice and develop spiritual independence. And I like the sinergy of different views and interpretations widening my mind and my heart. I value this kind of interaction. > >Look forward to hearing more from you! Thank you again >for sharing your details. > >Sarah > >p.s glad you've found some old friends too! > Thank you for the warm welcome and yes an old friend, Bruce, has already invited me to share some experiences and I will get started very soon. perhaps there is somebody else incognito. :-) Thank you Sarah you are very kind and makes me feel at ease. Cybele 3260 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:39pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed >.....but we may both get our > brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than > mine >;-b... Dear friends, 'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!! =^_^= Amara 3261 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Amara and everybody > >.....but we may both get >our > > brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much >sweeter than > > mine >;-b... > > >Dear friends, > >'Hannibal Lecter' et al waiting eagerly, although I think he and >Clarisse preferred theirs sauteed in French butter....!!! >=^_^= >Amara I am getting scared! Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to protect me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!! I told you Bruce we would get me in trouble; you are taking karmic responsability for it I warn you! ;-) Cybele 3262 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:08pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Hope to survive; I will start praying all Buddhas of compassion to protect > me. And Kuan Yin too. Mercy!!! Dear friends, For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity anyway... In my case probably five would be enough! =^_^= Amara 3263 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:20pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > For their sakes maybe we'll leave you enough to function with, > Einstien said that we use only 10% of the brain's full capacity > anyway... In my case probably five would be enough! > =^_^= > Amara Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use closer to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time... Dan 3264 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:29pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find that I use closer > to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of the time... Dear Dan, You are at once too kind and too modest, I think we are overdoing the quality of the wise person who speaks of others' good and not their bad sides, and speak of our own bad sides and not the good... I forgot the sutta and such references, but it's there somewhere. So long as we are sometimes aware that even being 'wise' is also not us!!! (Theoretically at first of course!) Amara 3265 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:38pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi Jon, Thanks for all your excellent comments. I hope to respond more fully in the coming days (or weeks), but I'm falling behind in my correspondence and my time is short. I just have one quick question. One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma samadhi. Why is that? Dan > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you – and > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? 3266 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Sarah, Your post is wonderful, and not overkill at all. You always bring such clear and unique explanations... Despite this, I STILL have a question. You write: > So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat > regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up > computer, knee surgery.....? > > Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the > accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they > appear, in addition to all the other realities as > explained by the Buddha? > > Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the > rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that > these activities are the real answers to overcoming > the kilesa (defilements). We should definitely not stop regular meals and exercise because these are things that help keep our minds sharp and clear and help condition seeing reality as it is. After all, it is difficult to see clearly the rise and fall of dhammas, the dukkha inherent in clinging, the anatta of the cittas, etc. when the mind is clouded by hunger (or over-eating) or by indolence and lethargy. Buddha saw samadhi as important enough to include as one of the factors on the eightfold path (samadhi in its samma form, i.e. suppression of the nivarana). Isn't this in part because the strong clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they appear, in addition to all the other realities as explained by the Buddha can be very subtle? To see the dhammas as they really are is not so easy as reading about them, thinking about them, discussing them. Formal practice, when done correctly, certainly helps. How to practice correctly? Not an easy question to answer, but with an understanding of Dhamma, sati is recognized when it arises. With diligent and ardent practice, the mind may gradually learn to recognize sati, the conditions for arising of sati, and how to effect those conditions for the arising of sati. Then, the meditator will then be able to sit cross-legged with body erect and bring sati to the fore. Bhavanamayapanna is not as easy as reading and thinking. 3267 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 9:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed hi bruce >hi cybele > > > Wow you are a tricky man Bruce, already throwing me in the boiling >caldron, > > no mercy at all. > > I see I am doomed to have heart and brains devoured very soon! ;-) > > Really bare bones meditation... > >ha ha! >no hurry at all cybele...really, take your time >i don't have time for long replies at the moment either, >and this topic seems to be worth approaching carefully... very carefully.... I must keep at least the 5% of brains Amara recommended. > > > Okay I will refer to it and relate my personal experience. > > But please give me support, don't let me down. > >if i can! -- i will certainly try, since i think we are both coming from >the same place, in terms of formal practice. Which place; the most prestigious cushion school?? ;-) ....but we may both get our >brains devoured -- and i'm sure your brains are probably much sweeter than >mine >;-b... > >bruce Then they will use mine for the grand dessert!!! :-)))) Cybele 3268 From: <> Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > > So what is the answer? To be sure to always eat > regular meals, do that exercise, have a back-up > computer, knee surgery.....? > > Or to understand the strong clinging to self and the > accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha when they > appear, in addition to all the other realities as > explained by the Buddha? > > Should I stop the regular meals, exercise and the > rest? No need to do so, but no need to kid myself that > these activities are the real answers to overcoming > the kilesa (defilements). Dear Sarah, A thoughtful, original, and considerate answer! Thank you. > Alex, I hope this may help a little. It sure helps. I see that if "sitting" helps, do it. Just don't consider it as the ultimate way to overcome the kilesa. My monks remind us again and again that more than 99% of the so-called vipassana meditators are doing samattha anyway, because we tend to develop subtle lobha for the pleasant feeling and get lost in that feeling. It's almost like being addicted. That's why I think that while sitting, walking slowly or normally, or doing anything, the most important part is seeing the paramattha dhammas occuring to us at the moment, remembering the 3 characters: impermanence, unsatisfaction, and no-self, especially the no-self part. > Very best wishes, Best wishes to you, too. > p.s hope yr dad's doing well too. Thank you. He's fine. Sincerely, Alex 3269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Mike Thanks once again for one of your very apposite sutta references. They are always much appreciated. Some useful reminders here, especially the emphasis on meeting the right person, asking questions, listening to the answers and considering what has been heard- "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." Note also the very clear description of these factors as "Causes" and "requisite conditions". Very explicit, and by no means merely descriptive, or even optional! Jon > "Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite > conditions lead to > the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment > that is basic to > the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, > development, & > culmination of that which has already been acquired. > Which eight? > "There is the case where a monk lives in > apprenticeship to the > Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life > in whom he has > established a strong sense of conscience, fear of > blame, love, & > respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first > requisite > condition that leads to the acquiring of the > as-yet-unacquired > discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to > the increase, > plenitude, development, & culmination of that which > has already been > acquired. > > "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or > under a > respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has > established a > strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & > respect, he > approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & > question him: 'What, > venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He > [the Teacher or > the respectable comrade in the holy life] reveals > what is hidden, > makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity > in many kinds of > perplexing things. This is the second cause, the > second requisite > condition... > > "Having heard the Dhamma, he [the student] achieves > a twofold > seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. > This is the third > cause, the third requisite condition... > > "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance > with the > Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of > activity. He > trains himself, having undertaken the training > rules, seeing danger > in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, > the fourth > requisite condition... > > "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, > has stored what > he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in > the beginning, > admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that > -- in their > meaning & expression -- proclaim the holy life that > is entirely > complete & pure: those he has listened to often, > retained, discussed, > accumulated, examined with his mind, & > well-penetrated in terms of > his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth > requisite condition... > > "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning > unskillful mental > qualities and for taking on skillful mental > qualities. He is > steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his > duties with regard > to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth > cause, the sixth > requisite condition... > > "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't > talk on & on about > a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself > or he invites > another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble > silence [the > second jhana]. This is the seventh cause, the > seventh requisite > condition... > > "He remains focused on arising & passing away with > regard to the five > aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, > such its > disappearance. Such is feeling...Such is > perception...Such are > fabrications...Such is consciousness, such its > origination, such its > disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, > the eighth > requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of > the as-yet- > unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy > life, and to the > increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of > that which has > already been acquired. > > "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy > life hold him in > esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship > to the Teacher or > to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he > has established > a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & > respect. Surely, > knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a > factor leading to > endearment, to respect, to development, to > consonance, to unification > [of mind]. > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.2 > Pańńa Sutta > Discernment > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-2.html 3270 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 11:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Oi Cybele, Desejo-lhe uma agradįvel estada nesta maravilhosa lista .... (I wish you a nice stay with us in this wonderful list...) Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very instructive posts of the list. Thank you once more for your wonderful job ... Metta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:38 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed > > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > > > > > 3272 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:00am Subject: Re: Just subscribed Oi, amigo! > Ps: Amara, I'm always reading and studying the very instructive posts of the > list. Muchas gracias (Pardon my Spanish, as usual!) > Thank you once more for your wonderful job ... Con gran placer, mis amigos, Amara. P.S. Hasta la vista! See you all tomorrow, signing off for now! 3273 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Amara - > Dear Howard, > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as well as > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > Whenever he has the time, of course. > > Amara > =============================== Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not mine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3274 From: Date: Wed Feb 7, 2001 7:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Greetings, Cybele! With metta, Howard > Hello everybody > > I thought of introducing myself before start partecipating in the > discussions as I have just subscribed in the list yesterday. > My name is Cybele, I am Brazilian, resident in Italy but presently I am > living in Southeast Asia, up and down from Thailand and Malaysia, earning a > living and practicing Buddhism. > I follow the Theravada tradition and I practice Vipassana that I have > learned in Sri Lanka after having practiced for few years Zen in Italy. > This list has been recommended to me by Robert whom I met in another list > and after having researched through the archives yesterday to get > acquainted, I am really pleased he invited me to join. > Thank you so much Robert, so handy having a wise friend! ;-) > I checked in the archives of dhammastudy and it's very interesting. > I most appreciate the tone of the exchanges, very friendly and almost > confidential and the subjects are stimulanting for me not only the usual > mental proliferation so common over these e-lists. > People here seems to have a very healthy attitude to the practice. > I am pleased to have joined and I met some friends again here apart Robert, > it's heartening: Hi, Howard, my favorite peacemaker! > Hi, Bruce, I still owe you the mail about Burma! > Hi, Mark, the fit, non emaciated buddhist! :-) > Well hope to keep the pace and glad to make this virtual journey with all > of > you. > > Love and respect > Cybele > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3275 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Welcome aborad, Cybele! Metta, Bhante D. ;-) 3276 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- "Dan Dalthorp" <<>> wrote: > Hi Jon, > Thanks for all your excellent comments. I hope to respond more fully > in the coming days (or weeks), but I'm falling behind in my > correspondence and my time is short. I just have one quick question. > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma samadhi. Why is > that? Dan Dan, sorry to add to your busy schedule with yet another reply. Samma-Samadhi is important of course. At the time when a dhamma is seen with the eye of wisdom there must be that special type of samadhi that focuses on the dhamma. At the moments of vipassana this profound samadhi is very powerful so that it can focus on a dhamma so that panna can insight just for those very brief moments. Samyutta nikaya V, 17 XLV I III ix Viii(the great chapter) Concentration I will teach you monks the Ariyan right concentration, which is associated and equipped, …It is equipped with right view, right aim, right speeh,….right effort, right mindfulness. Now monks the one-pointedness of mind which is equipped with these seven limbs is called the Ariyan right concentration on which is associated, likewise which is equipped" It seems to be indicating that samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path is quite a specific sort of samadhi. The netti-pakarana says "'Giving right view first place': when right view is admitted the noble eight-factored path is admitted. Why is that? Because it is from right view that right intention is given being, from right intention that right speech is given being, from right action that right livelihood is given being, from right effort that mindfulness is given being, from right mindfulness that right concentration is given being, and from right concentration that right deliverance is given being, and from right deliverance that right knowing and seeing of deliverance is given being." I looked through volume 5 of the Samyutta nikaya and came up with these quotes: From samyutta nikaya; From volV translated by woodward. Kindred sayings on the faculties, The great chapter vi mallika "Monks in the Ariyan disciple who has insight, faith is established as a matter of course; energy, mindfulness, concentration are established as a matter of course." Kindred sayings on the limb of wisdom IV On Hindrances (viii) restraint and Hindrance "At the time, monks, when the Ariyan disciple makes the Dhamma his object, gives attention to it, with all his mind considers it, with ready ear listens to the Dhamma, at such a time the five hindrances exist not in him, at such times these seven limbs of wisdom ( mindfulness, dhamma-vicaya - investigation, effort, piti, tranquility, concentration, equanimity)go to fulfilment". IV (iii) virtue 'On hearing the teaching of such a monk one dwells aloof in two forms of aloofness, to wit: of body and mind. Such a one, so dwelling aloof remembers that Dhamma teaching and turns it over in his mind. When a monk so dwelling remembers and turns over in his mind the teaching it is then that the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness is established in that monk. When he cultivates the limb of wisdom which is mindfulness then it is that the monks culture comes to perfection.' Kindred sayings about the truths Text V, 440, LVI, xii, iv, vii The parable of the sun "Monks just as the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger, of the arising of the sun, even so is right view the forerunner, the harbinger of fully comprehending the four noble truths" Kindred sayings on stream winning Text V 409 LV XI VIII xiii Four fruits Monks these four conditions, if cultivated and made much of conduce to realising the fruits of stream winning(sotapanna). What four? Following after the good, hearing the true Dhamma, systematic attention to it and living in accordance with the precepts of the Dhamma. These 4 conditions if made much of conduce to realising the fruits of stream winning" I found these while reading today because they were the sort of suttas I was looking for. If I had been wanting to stress samadhi I know I could have found many of those too. I really don't like to make rules about how the path develops. It needs much listening and profound consideration as a basis but beyond that I think we have to let accumulations take over. For one person withdrawal from society even for long periods might be conducive - assuming there is real understanding of the difference between samattha and satipatthana. While another might develop better in a more conventional lifestyle. I don't think you will hear me say "don't practice, don't sit". What you will hear is "don't assume sitting still and concentrating is the same as satipatthana" and "vipassana is not a technique". Yesterday I went for my yearly checkup (paid for by work). They give you a rating afterwards and my one had improved noticeably. It is tempting to think that this could be related to the more than usual writing, study and thinking about Dhamma I have been doing over the last year . This would be foolish. Even subtle types of lobha if developed can improve health and give one a glowing complexion; it is preferable to dosa but it doesn't equate with the path. And even if there has been more kusala this year, (actually I have not had time to do much of the akusala I would probably like to do) it doesn't mean that I was developing satipatthana; there are many types of kusala. It means nothing for the future too. Next year it might be a bad report. More than that if conditions are right a kamma from the past might arise and cut life off even in the next minute. I may feel very content and satisfied about all "my" Dhamma activities, but this is just conceit- it will not help in samsara. Good to know this. Robert 3277 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 1:55am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Salve Leonardo > >Oi Cybele, > >Desejo-lhe uma agradįvel estada nesta maravilhosa lista .... > >(I wish you a nice stay with us in this wonderful list...) Muito gentil, obrigado. E assim estranho falar portugues, voce me faz sentir saudades...sou contente de encontrar un conterraneo! Thanks Leonardo very kind of you, I am glad to meet another Brazilian...I feel quite weird speaking Portuguese, I am already yearning, see the attachment ! ;-) Love and respect Cybele 3278 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 2:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Bhante! I cannot get rid of you or you of me, it's karma you must endure! Be patient! ;-)))) I am joking... Nice to meet you again. Metta Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:50:53 +0530 > >Welcome aborad, Cybele! > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > > ;-) > 3279 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 2:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed Dear Howard My favorite peacemaker, lovely meeting you here! Thanks for the welcome. Metta Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:48:39 EST > >Greetings, Cybele! > >With metta, >Howard > 3280 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:43am Subject: Yes, We Have No Bhavanas Boa Vinda, Cybele! and Hello, Bruce! --- bruce wrote: > be forewarned -- > that there are some folks in this group > (not me!) who may think it's not possible > to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... Hmm...maybe...I think it's closer to the point to say that some of us think that it's very important to make a clear distinction between samathata-bhavana and vipassana...then again, I'm usually wrong. I'll await the inevitable (and welcome) corrections... > again, welcome aboard, and don't worry > about burma responses until you have time... > i think discussion of vipassana practice on this > list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... Burma, eh? What a beautiful place, I will always suffer some real attachments to Rangoon... mike 3281 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed (I'll have mine with a side of bhava beans and a nice little Chianti, thank you...) 3282 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed --- wrote: > Then you must REALLY have a big brain indeed! I find > that I use closer > to 90% of my brain, and it still falls short most of > the time... What? uh, mike 3283 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:01am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Some useful reminders here, especially the emphasis > on > meeting the right person, asking questions, > listening > to the answers and considering what has been heard- Agreed. I think you're really homing in on the gist of these. > "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, > the middle and the end ... those he has listened to > often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined > with > his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." > > Note also the very clear description of these > factors > as "Causes" and "requisite conditions". Very > explicit, and by no means merely descriptive, or > even > optional! Yes. The more I look, the more this is the way it seems to me too. mike 3284 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:15am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). mn 3285 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:26pm Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing > Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not mine. Dear Howard, I'm sorry, did I get you the wrong sutta? Could you send the references again please? Amara 3286 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:30pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). Dear Mike, I think you got it right the first time, 'chianti' (ssssslurp!!!) Amara 3287 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 0:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce > thanks for your excellent response....time is tight > this week, so i'll hold > off on a lengthy answer until, say, the weekend... Take your time. As and when convenience/inclination allows is fine. > i have just one question, basically for > everybody who is toeing > this listen-and-consider-only party line, (I’ll ignore that provocation, for now!) a question > that might just help > break through the "formal-practice" logjam: > > ***what exactly are you doing when you are > "considering" dhammas??*** If I may rephrase your question slightly, What did the Buddha mean when he talked about considering dhammas? As, for example, in Dan’s suta- and cinta-maya panna, or in the passage from the Panna Sutta recently cited by Mike - "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." The answer is to a large extent given in the same passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if one has listened to the correct teachings about dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha. It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas. It is momentary, one or more moments of citta (consciousness), and it arises if and when the right conditions have been developed (ie. it is not something that ** is being done** or that ** can be done**). It concerns dhammas (realities) as they appear naturally at the present moment, because that is what the preceding listening, remembering, discussion and reflection has been concerned with. It is like you said about the making of choices; it happens because of conditions in the past, and the idea that anyone is in control, is doing anything, is only an illusion. This applies as much to the development of the path as it applies to any other moment of our lives. It is very subtle, and I am not sure I have been able to convey it adequately. But I hope this gives an idea. Jon 3288 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 3:04pm Subject: Re:_Re:_[DhammaStudyGroup]_Re:_Conditions_for_pańńa Amara, Gayan I would be interested to know how the Pali term 'jhaayatha' is translated into Thai/Singhala in the sutta references given below. Would you mind checking some time, when convenient? Thanks in advance Jonothan PS I believe the reference occurs at the very end of the suttas concerned ie. M i 46, M iii 302 --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > >I think you're quoting from the wrong sutta. I > think > >the one that Dan meant was the Indriyabhavana sutta > >152 and I think this is the Pali (MJ iii, 302). > > You're right. I was quoting from the wrong sutta as > I couldn't find the > passage with Ananda. > > >............................................... > > Sace ąkaļkhati: pańikkålaü ca appańikkålaü ca > >tadåbhayaü2 abhinivajjetvą upekkhako vihareyyaü > sato > >sampająno'ti. Upekkhako tattha viharati sato > >sampająno. Evaü kho ąnanda, ariyo hoti > bhąvitindriyo. > > However, this is not the passage. A few lines up > from the bottom you will > see this line: > > "Jhaayath',AAnanda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa > vippa.tisaarino ahuvattha > ..." -- M iii 302 > > With the exception of the name Ananda instead of > Cunda, the rest of the line > is exactly the same as at M i 46. I believe the > commentarial interpretation > at MA i 195 still holds for this passage. The reason > why this did not come > up in my disk search was that I failed to notice the > possibility of a vowel > coalescence (sandhi) in jhaayathaananda. I was only > looking for jhaayatha > and that is why I only found two instances instead > of three. > > >..................................................... > >Would you kindly check for me and give any > comments. I > >notice Kom's translation from accessonisight uses > >'Practice jhana, Ananda'! > > I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find > that it does not > quite agree with the commentary which includes both > samatha and > vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a > better translation than > 'Practice jhana'. > > Thanks for mentioning the MN 152 passage. I should > say that I have only > zeroed in on that particular line and have not tried > reading the whole sutta > to see how the line fits in with the context. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > 3289 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:12pm Subject: Hello, everyone. My name is Darren and I am english. I have joined this group to learn from you. I have many questions to ask because I have not studied the dhamma under the guidanceof any learned teacher. Here are a few questions to begin althoughthey are unrelated to the dhamma. How many enlightened people are there on this planet? Have you met even a stream enterer? What percentage of buddists (can you imagine) are enlightened? Is enlightenment a realistic expectationin this lifetime? Bye fornow. 3290 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear M. Nease I will do my best to satisfy your request but please be compassionate and spare me at least the 10% of functioning brains to continue the practice. Thank you and 'buon appetito'! But I would suggest you a more adequate wine in order to fully appreciate my brains... ;-) Cybele >From: "m. nease" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:52:08 -0800 (PST) > >(I'll have mine with a side of bhava beans and a nice >little Chianti, thank you...) > > 3292 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:52pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear Amara and Mike Sorry for the previous mail, it was a mistake. However as I would like you to fully enjoy my brains still I might suggest another wine. Anyway is 'chianti' (sssslurp!!!), you are right! A toast for everybody... ;-) Cybele > >From: "Amara" > > > > > (Sorry, that should've been 'a nice little khianti'). > > > > > >Dear Mike, > > > >I think you got it right the first time, 'chianti' (ssssslurp!!!) > > > >Amara > > 3293 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 6:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Yes, We Have No Bhavanas Dear Mike Thanks a lot for the welcome. >Boa Vinda, Cybele! and Hello, Bruce! See below: >--- bruce wrote: > > > be forewarned -- > > that there are some folks in this group > > (not me!) who may think it's not possible > > to do any kind of formal vipassana practice... > >Hmm...maybe...I think it's closer to the point to say >that some of us think that it's very important to make >a clear distinction between samathata-bhavana and >vipassana...then again, I'm usually wrong. I'll await >the inevitable (and welcome) corrections... For now I will not collect the 'provocation'... ;-) > > > again, welcome aboard, and don't worry > > about burma responses until you have time... > > i think discussion of vipassana practice on this > > list may be just a bit more worthwhile.... > >Burma, eh? What a beautiful place, I will always >suffer some real attachments to Rangoon... > >mike > You are right, one of the most beautiful towns in South East Asia. And burmese people so kind, so friendly. Cybele 3294 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Dear Darren, Welcome to the list! Excellent first question, the replies should be most interesting, I think. I would especially like to hear the opinions of our venerable Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo, if you would please oblige us, sir. Looking forward very much to reading everyone's opinions, Amara > Hello, everyone. My name is Darren > and I am english. I have joined this > group to learn from you. I have many > questions to ask because I have not > studied the dhamma under the > guidanceof any learned teacher. Here > are a few questions to begin > althoughthey are unrelated to the > dhamma. How many enlightened people > are there on this planet? Have you > met even a stream enterer? What > percentage of buddists (can you > imagine) are enlightened? Is > enlightenment a realistic > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > fornow. 3295 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: Just subscribed > Thank you and 'buon appetito'! > But I would suggest you a more adequate wine in order to fully appreciate my > brains... ;-) Dear all, I think she's right, Mike, I'm sure she has superior brains to Krendler's, so at least a 'slendid white Burgundy' would be in order here, if not some 'Dom Perignon'... Yummmmm!!!! =^_^= Amara 3296 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 8:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan this is in response to your earlier mail.... Bruce, perhaps in your case, the > nicotine-free cells are benefiting from their > new-found release. nahh....i'm just back to my old cranky, uh, self -- probably a bit crankier without the nicotine >:-) btw: robt, are you studying my emoticons? there will be a test next week....just be careful: macintosh emoticons look like mere typos on a pc >:-O > Yes, a sitting practice can have numerous benefits (as > any TM'er will be happy to tell you Ėand > scientifically proven, no less), but are these factors > a true measure as to whether one is following the > unique path that was taught by the Buddha? To put it > another way, what according to the Tipitika are the > indicators of progress on the path, and do they > include any of these particular factors? i realize that much of what i described is no more than the fruits of samatha-bhavana, though i'm not sure if *all* of the results i mentioned are from samatha alone. does temporary seclusion from the kilesas increase confidence? increase the arising of the brahma-viharas? these alse seem to accompany regular sitting practice, and i would like to know why.... so. these pleasant results arising from the temporary suppression of kilesas are the strongest incentive i've found to study more deeply: if this is what temporary suppression of kilesas is like, i can only imagine what permanent eradication must be like....and thus i want to learn more.... i'm not entirely convinced that what i'm doing is *only* samatha bhavana, however...more in the next mail... > > in short, from experience i can certainly recommend > > replacing so much > > reading-about-dhammas and thinking-about-dhammas > > with some simple > > noticing-of-dhammas....and like a few other people > > on this list i've found > > that this is just plain easier when there is nothing > > else to do but > > sit....the more i notice when i am sitting, the more > > i notice when i am not > > sitting.... > > Are you saying that, to use DanĆŌ terminology which > seems to fit exactly here, we can replace > suta-maya-panna (panna acquired through listening) and > cinta-maya-panna (acquired through reflection and > consideration) with bhavana-maya-panna (attainment)? well, i'm glad someone has the correct terminology! > Again, any support for this in the texts, can *i* give textual support? not at all, i leave that up to all of you. i'm still working my way through MN, and still learning how to do Tipitaka searches on the web.... ie that a > person gets beyond the need to listen more and > consider more? Or should the useful listening and > reflection continue, up to the moment of insight (and > beyond)? (re: moment of insight -- to which vipassana nana are you referring?) and to answer your questions: not at all; and: absolutely! i can't imagine ever getting to the point where listening and considering/practicing are unnecessary, until they become, like panca-sila for the stream-enterer, impossible NOT to "do".... bruce 3297 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:18pm Subject: List Bulletin Dear Dhamma Friends, Recently, quite a few new members have joined the list, so it may be appropriate to re-post the dsg guidelines which have been revised a little. From today, these are also incorporated into the welcome message for new subscribers, so hopefully we won't need to post them on list too often! We suggest you keep a copy for easy reference. If you have any comments on suggestions on these or any other topics related to the smooth-running of the list, please send them to us off-list. GUIDELINES 1. We welcome any questions, answers, or comments relating to the Buddha’s teachings (no matter how lighthearted). 2. Please use an appropriate subject heading for messages and replies. This makes it easier to follow different threads, or to browse the archives later. 3. For replies, delete any part of the original message that is not directly relevant to your reply. This saves the reader from having to scroll through large chunks of text, and saves archive space which may be limited in future. 4. Because of potential limits on storage space, please use hyperlinks when referring to on-line texts, except for short passages. 5. Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language. 6. The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how interesting or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, ‘everybody in my address book’ messages, circulars, petitions, urban legends, or any other similar messages. Just questions, answers, or comments relating to the Buddha’s teachings, please! 7. Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list. 8. Please respect copyright laws. 9. Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the right to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messages. Sarah & Jonothan (We can be contacted off-list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=114059178213193154090218164140244063078048234051197130079110) 3298 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi jonathan > > i have just one question, basically for > > everybody who is toeing > > this listen-and-consider-only party line, > > (I$BCM(Jl ignore that provocation, for now!) sorry jonathan, sometimes this thing misfires (no, not the howitzer, just my judgement). i'm still working on an emoticon for "meant in jest" #8?b > If I may rephrase your question slightly, What did the > Buddha mean when he talked about considering dhammas? yes this is much better..... > As, for example, in Dan$BCT(J suta- and cinta-maya panna, > or in the passage from the Panna Sutta recently cited > by Mike - > > "Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, > the middle and the end ... those he has listened to > often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with > his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." > > The answer is to a large extent given in the same > passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if > one has listened to the correct teachings about > dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked > about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by > the Buddha. now the windshield is starting to fog up: "borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha." how does one "bear something in mind"? and more to the point: how did the Buddha mean for one to bear them in mind?? i'm not being tricky or snide (i can see that comment up above will haunt me for a few months!) truth is: i really want to know, because i have a strong suspicion that what i'm "doing" during so-called "formal practice" may not be so different from what you're "doing" during so-called "considering" or "bearing in mind".... note: this is extremely hard to write about without putting everything in those ridiculous this-is-conventional-reality quotes. > It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one > has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas. exactly. and there is no other way that i will understand these objects, except by considering them in light of what i've heard and remembered, what i've learned. and i think this is what i'm doing during formal practice.... > It is momentary, one or more moments of citta > (consciousness), and it arises if and when the right > conditions have been developed (ie. it is not > something that ** is being done** or that ** can be > done**). right. and it would follow that one cannot choose to listen to the Dhamma, one cannot choose to read the Dhamma, one cannot choose to discuss the Dhamma, nor can one choose to remember the Dhamma, is this correct? > It concerns dhammas (realities) as they appear > naturally at the present moment, because that is what > the preceding listening, remembering, discussion and > reflection has been concerned with. "reflection". another hard-to-imagine verb. is this just thinking? to me it seems to be nothing less than noticing dhammas in light of the truth of what one has heard. ie, noticing the truth of the Dhamma reflected in realities as they appear at the six dvara... > It is like you said about the making of choices; it > happens because of conditions in the past, and the > idea that anyone is in control, is doing anything, is > only an illusion. This applies as much to the > development of the path as it applies to any other > moment of our lives. right! so i don't choose to practice, i don't choose to notice dhammas when i sit; you don't choose to read, you don't choose to understand dhammas when you consider them.... > It is very subtle, and I am not sure I have been able > to convey it adequately. But I hope this gives an > idea. it gave me many jonathan, big anumodana to you! bruce 3299 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 11:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Hello Darren, I am Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and I am human. ;-) Perhaps there is also much you can teach us! I think that there may be some enlightened people on the planet but they are not fully enlightened. As from stream enterers, yes, I have met the Buddhist kind and swimmers! ;-) I do not imagine what percentage of Buddhists are enlightened --- takes time away from practice! Enlightenment is not unrealistic at all. It is not some mystical, transcendental state that lets us escape the dukkha of Samsara but it is practical, everyday awareness and mindfulness of the way things are and not what we want them to be or not be. Enlightenment is when we get to that sharp edge of vulnerability and the unknown and we go from Right Understanding onward. It is the very moment we face reality and sometimes honestly face the question of "How on Earth am I going to get through the next... minute, hour... How am I going to get through today?" The thing about a moment of enlightened awareness is not to cling to it or try to grasp it as "I", "me", "my" moment, or "mine". Okay, that may seem like some simplistic answers but they are something to think about. So Darren, are you a "Buddhist"? I'm not! ;-) No interest in "-isms" and "-ists". But if we understand the conventional term, well ok! So, why do you practice Buddhadhamma? ---or at least have some interest in it? Metta, Bhante D. 3300 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 10:28pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Bruce, > -----Original Message----- > can *i* give textual support? not at all, i leave > that up to all of you. > i'm still working my way through MN, and still > learning how to do Tipitaka > searches on the web.... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-sutta.html kom 3301 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 11:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma > samadhi. Why is > that? Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata (concentration) that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path. As we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata cetasika arises with every citta and performs its function (‘the welding together of coexistent states’). When it arises with samma sati it is called samma samadhi and it performs the function of focussing on the object in the right way. How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path developed? As discussed in some recent posts, the development of sati is the key to the development of all the path factors. If sati of the level of satipatthana is developed, so are the other factors. Hence we have satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana. Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to one of the jhana factors which are developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61]. So references in both contexts will be found in the texts. The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of jhana and 2 of which refer to development of mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is described in terms of observing the rise and fall of the 5 kkhandas of grasping. Jon 3302 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 0:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Dear Howard, You wrote: <> As I have hardly studied this sutta, I can't offer much of an explanation. But I thought you might be interested to know where you could find a good explanation of the four approaches. In the Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of breathing. Best wishes, Jim A. 3303 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 7:27pm Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Amara - > > Thanks. BTW, the reference you mention was Robert's, not > mine. > > > Dear Howard, > > I'm sorry, did I get you the wrong sutta? Could you send the > references again please? > > Amara > ================================ I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. The only sutta I posted was Anguttara Nikaya, IV.170, the Yuganaddha Sutta. That was the sutta I saw as possibly indicating a non-jhana approach to liberation. I then later repeated Robert's citation of "I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana". I think I may be confused about what's going on! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3304 From: Date: Thu Feb 8, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Hi, Cybele, Amara, and Mike - I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) With metta, Howard > Dear Amara and Mike > > Sorry for the previous mail, it was a mistake. > However as I would like you to fully enjoy my brains still I might suggest > another wine. > Anyway is 'chianti' (sssslurp!!!), you are right! > A toast for everybody... ;-) > > Cybele > 3305 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Dear Howard > >Hi, Cybele, Amara, and Mike - > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) > >With metta, >Howard I think you really got it, I suppose was his intention, we are too prosaic! ;-)) I see that you have a pure mind much more transparent than mine full entangled of Italian gastronomic memories and recollections. I knew he meant some trick but I could not get it and it was so obvious. Then Amara wrote and dragged me away from my own inquiry mind. I just followed blindly after the funny sluuuurrp reference. Incredible as even a simple, innocent joke can teach us bit and pieces of Dhamma! Thank you Howard you are a revelation, a real wise 'guru' and so humble...I bow to you 3 times!! ;-)))) Love and respect Cybele 3306 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Dear Bhante You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! What a cute, nice, humorous message! I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this you will become my hero promise! ;-) That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I use it in future quoting the 'source'? Metta and mudita Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:51:52 +0530 > >Hello Darren, > >I am Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo and I am human. ;-) > >Perhaps there is also much you can teach us! > >I think that there may be some enlightened people on the planet but they >are >not fully enlightened. > >As from stream enterers, yes, I have met the Buddhist kind and swimmers! >;-) > >I do not imagine what percentage of Buddhists are enlightened --- takes >time >away from practice! > >Enlightenment is not unrealistic at all. It is not some mystical, >transcendental state that lets us escape the dukkha of Samsara but it is >practical, everyday awareness and mindfulness of the way things are and not >what we want them to be or not be. Enlightenment is when we get to that >sharp edge of vulnerability and the unknown and we go from Right >Understanding onward. It is the very moment we face reality and sometimes >honestly face the question of "How on Earth am I going to get through the >next... minute, hour... How am I going to get through today?" > >The thing about a moment of enlightened awareness is not to cling to it or >try to grasp it as "I", "me", "my" moment, or "mine". > >Okay, that may seem like some simplistic answers but they are something to >think about. > >So Darren, are you a "Buddhist"? I'm not! ;-) No interest in "-isms" and >"-ists". But if we understand the conventional term, well ok! > >So, why do you practice Buddhadhamma? ---or at least have some interest in >it? > >Metta, > >Bhante D. > 3307 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 2:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) Contextual reply below: ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) > > Dear Bhante > Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) > What a cute, nice, humorous message! I am not the ogre that some may think I am! > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this you > will become my hero promise! ;-) No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I use > it in future quoting the 'source'? > Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) > Metta and mudita > Ditto! Right back at you! > Cybele > Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante 3308 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:26am Subject: meditation/medhaa Dear All, I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) in Sanskrit & Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the English word 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to match. These are: mid, med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of knowing, understanding (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: Sumedha. The English 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there is also a 'med' root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is 'medomai' (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the Sanskrit & Pali form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be 'medaami' which is remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up 'meditate' in the OED this 'med' might also be connected to the one in 'medicine'. The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' which has the meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani (the first of the seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' are included. Best wishes, Jim A. 3309 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:45am Subject: > > How many enlightened people > > are there on this planet? Have you > > met even a stream enterer? What > > percentage of buddists (can you > > imagine) are enlightened? Is > > enlightenment a realistic > > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > > fornow. Dear Darren, I would like add my answer to the excellent replies, In the days of the Buddha he alone could accurately tell if a person was an arahanta or ariya of any kind, other arahanta with certain jhana could also perhaps tell, others could only speculate from what they believe to be signs of the arahanta. The thing is that even in those days, it matters only to the person who is developing right understanding because as long as they have not reached arahantship they are still 'students', they still need to study the dhamma. The vinaya requires even an older arahanta to pay respect to a younger bhikkhu who was ordained before him, to eliminate any importance given to this very personal acheivement, for each person the knowledge is developed at a different pace, and attainment depends on many conditions, mostly on the person's accumulations, which none but the Buddha could really tell. To eliminate preoccupation with this kind of thing, one does not have to know anyone else's attainment. After all, even as that person is telling you he has attained nothing, at that moment, if he had accumulated conditions to become enlightened; being mindful of realities as they really are, he might have attained something right after he finished or even as he spoke. Everything arises from conditions, anatta, under no one's control, so with the right conditions wisdom of any degree could arise anytime, anywhere. Who could tell but the person himself? Which makes it more difficult to tell as well because it is forbidden for the ariya (or is it a natural thing for them?) not to declare their attainment to anyone. Of course among themselves they could probably tell which one had, if somehow they change visibly, for example we know that the anagami is no longer affected by or no longer cares for 'beauty', so if a person who keeps perfectly the 5 precepts without even speaking frivolously or playfully or anything and used to dress beautifully using lipsticks and all were to suddenly stop using them with apparent sincerity, and keep the 8 precepts without flaw, one might wonder if they had attained that exremely high level. Not that I know any such person, I hasten to add. The people with a lower level of knowledge could never tell with certainty, even with thorough investigation, those with a higher one, and the people who attained anything would not tell anyone else, so that it is useless to wonder, it is all thinking anyway and what is really important to the development of right understanding is already set in the Tipitaka, so anything is just distraction, and does not add to knowledge of things as they really are. It does not matter who teaches the dhamma if they do not add their own interpretations to the texts, but transmit what the Buddha and the Commentaries taught correctly. These are just my personal opinion, what do you think about it? Amara 3310 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:49am Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > In the > Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled > the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the > Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under > the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach > relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) > and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding > (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and > in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. > If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from > this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of > breathing. Dear Howard and Jim, My own reference was from the Manorathapurani Commentaries to the Angutaranikaya Jatukanipata, in Thai, as faxed to me from the foundation library. It might be worth while comparing the two, perhaps in the original Pali as well as in the English translations: lately I have become quite wary of translators, as they said in a famous translation school, 'traduttore tradittore'! Amara 3311 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:53am Subject: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing > I'm afraid I'm a bit confused. The only sutta I posted was Anguttara > Nikaya, IV.170, the Yuganaddha Sutta. That was the sutta I saw as possibly > indicating a non-jhana approach to liberation. I then later repeated Robert's > citation of "I, vangisa suttas, par.7 invitation pavarana". I think I may be > confused about what's going on! > ;-)) s of this message have been removed] Dear Howard, I think my contribution to the Yuganaddha Sutta discussion was in my message 3238, as you probably saw, and the reference comes from the Manorathapurani Commentaries, as I mentioned just now. Strange how the confusion got started, don't you think! Amara 3312 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:54am Subject: Re: Just subscribed > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard Dear Howard, There's a thought! Maybe Jim could tell us, Pali was never my forte! =^_^= Amara 3313 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:01am Subject: My interest in buddism Dear Bhante. I am interested in buddism because it promises that if Ithe follow Buddha's path I can end 'my' suffering. Realistically speaking, all I want is to be in continuous association with pleasant sensation and to be permanently free from unpleasant sensation. Needless to say that I'll never achieve it, even the Buddha felt pain. The difference is that he did not identify with pain as 'my' pain. He viewed all sensations equally, neither passion for pleasure nor hatred of pain. Although it statistically improbable that I will cross the flood in this lifetime, I intend to at least make an effort. Myimmediate goal is to understand what is causing me suffering and learn how to prevent it. I am learning constantly. 3314 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 5:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Question on a Sutta Hi, Jim - > Dear Howard, > > You wrote: > < > In the following sutta (copied from Access to Insight), can someone > explain the meaning of the fourth approach, distinguishing it from the > first three? Could it be a pure-insight approach? Here is the sutta: > > ********************************************************************** > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 > > Yuganaddha Sutta >> > > As I have hardly studied this sutta, I can't offer much of an > explanation. But I thought you might be interested to know where you > could find a good explanation of the four approaches. In the > Pa.tisambhidaamagga of the Khuddakanikaya there is a treatise callled > the Yuganaddha-kathaa which is a very detailed exposition of the > Yuganaddha Sutta. The Pa.tis has been translated by ~Naa.namoli under > the title of The Path of Discrimination (PTS). The fourth approach > relates to the 10 defilements of vipassana (vipassan'uupakkilesa-s) > and seems to concern only the insight worker of slow understanding > (acc. to the commentary). The Pa.tis is one of my favourite texts and > in my mind the best manual among the Pali texts for developing wisdom. > If you read the Visuddhimagga you will often come across quotes from > this book. There is also included a treatise on mindfulness of > breathing. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > ================================ Thank you *very* much for this. I will try to place an order for The Path of Discrimination! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3315 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed Patience, patience; that is always the key. Robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! > ;-)) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > > Dear Howard, > > There's a thought! Maybe Jim could tell us, Pali was never my > forte! > =^_^= > Amara > 3316 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:41am Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Howard, Did you read the message below a few days ago? BTW I must endorse the importance of the Patisambhidhimagga . Note the translation, the Path of Discrimination , is a rather unusual one . To get the gist it os helpful to refer to the glossary which has the pali words that the translator refers to. Robert Very helpful Amara. you have had a busy day! very interesting to read the types of arahants. I note that only 10 (out of five hundred) had attained the three vijja (I forget what the three vijja are right now): the best of the best. I believe that of the five hundred arahants who Mahakassapa assembled to rehearse the teachings at the 1st council all were of this most wonderful type. robert --- Amara wrote: > > > > > > In the kindred sayings (I, vangisa suttas, par.7 > invitation > > > > pavarana) > > > > it notes that out of fivehundred arahant monks over > three > > > > hundred were "liberated by insight alone". > > > > Thanks for the reference, will ask K. Supii to look it up as > well as > > K. Kom's Pitti Sutta. > > > Dear all, > > With the help of K. Supii we have found the suttas desired: > > Piti Sutta: the problem as K. Kom pointed out is in the > English > translation of 'remain is seclusion and rapture' for the > 'piti' and > 'viveka'. Piti is of course the joy, delight, pleasure or > rapture in > kusala (not to be confused with the somanassa accompanying > lobha, > when there is pleasure accompanying the citta that evolves > with > mundane distractions such as music, which is full of lobha > when there > is not consciousness of realities arising as well.). Viveka > is > 'peacefulness' exempt from kilesa, the condition of the citta > whenever > lobha, dosa and moha do not arise. Any moment there is study > of the > realities as they arise and appear there is sati and panna of > things > as they really are, which never arises with akusala citta of > any kind, > so that at that moment not only is there no lobha, dosa or > moha, but > instead there is viveka from these kilesa arising at that > moment. > > In summary, the Buddha was telling the people who had just > made such > great merits to be mindful of their maha kusala and the > delight exempt > from any kilesa at that very moment. > > > Pavarana Sutta in the Samyutta Nikaya Sagathavagga: In the > Thai > Tipitaka this is a different one from the Vangisa Sutta > although > Vangisa was mentioned in this one as well. > > In this sutta there are parts where the Buddha said that of > the 500 > bhikkhu arahanta before him, as Howard said, over 300 were > sukkhavipassaka: > > '... of these 500 bhikkhu, 10 bhikkhu attained the three vijja > 60 > attained the 6 abhinna , and another 60 were > 'ubhatobhaga-vimutti'. > The rest were 'panna vimutti'' (attainment of arahantship from > panna > alone). > > I might add that if I remember correctly it was predicted in > the > commentaries that for the first thousand years of the sasana > there > would be arahanta with jhana, the second, without, and the > third > (which we are in) there would only be anagami, etc. > > Still, I really believe we are lucky to still have the > Tipitaka in its > entirety including the Abhidhamma (the first pitaka predicted > to > disappear) to study, and so many friends who share this > precious > interest and treasure of knowledge, > > Amara > > > 3317 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] My interest in buddism Dear swright, What a welcome and forthright first post. (My apologies, Bhante Doc, for responding ahead). --- wrote: > Dear Bhante. I am interested in > buddism because it promises that if > Ithe follow Buddha's path I can end > 'my' suffering. So you already know it isn't yours... > Realistically > speaking, all I want is to be in > continuous association with pleasant > sensation and to be permanently free > from unpleasant sensation. Exactly what's brought me to this list and kept me here (pleasant sensation arising from contact arising at the mind-door, of course)--maybe not such a bad thing, IF the pleasure is kusala... > Needless > to say that I'll never achieve it, > even the Buddha felt pain. The > difference is that he did not > identify with pain as 'my' pain. He > viewed all sensations equally, > neither passion for pleasure nor > hatred of pain. Although it > statistically improbable that I will > cross the flood in this lifetime, I > intend to at least make an effort. Bless your heart, sir--what a worthy intention. > My immediate goal is to understand > what is causing me suffering and > learn how to prevent it. I am > learning constantly. In my own rather feeble opinion, you've come to the right place--for what that's worth... mike p.s. What's your name? 3318 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 0:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Question on a Sutta >Dear Howard and Jim, > >My own reference was from the Manorathapurani Commentaries to the >Angutaranikaya Jatukanipata, in Thai, as faxed to me from the >foundation library. It might be worth while comparing the two, >perhaps in the original Pali as well as in the English translations: >lately I have become quite wary of translators, as they said in a >famous translation school, 'traduttore tradittore'! Dear Amara, I looked at the part in the AN commentary in Pali and yes it's a good idea to compare the two. One big difference is that the AN commentary is much shorter (about a page and half in Roman script) compared to the Patisambhidamagga which has about 10 pages with much peyyala. When you say you have become wary of translators, does that include those who translate Pali into Thai? I've always been wary of English translations and that led me to learn Pali so I could bypass the translators and read the originals themselves. And this has worked out well for me. Best wishes, Jim A. 3319 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:04pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa Hello Jim I have also seen another latin term MEDITATO I heard that it means to 'think around' or 'ponder on'. --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > Dear All, > > I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) in Sanskrit & > Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the English word > 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to match. These are: mid, > med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of knowing, understanding > (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: Sumedha. The English > 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there is also a 'med' > root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is 'medomai' > (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the Sanskrit & Pali > form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be 'medaami' which is > remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up 'meditate' in the OED > this 'med' might also be connected to the one in 'medicine'. > > The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' which has the > meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani (the first of the > seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by > listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' are included. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. 3320 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed - Rob Dear Robert Okay that I am not supposed to have 'self' but you just ignored my arrival in the list; I feel dejected, you insensitive, cruel male! ;-) Promise if I don't learn detachment interacting with you I am really beyond redemption! I will give up and return to my original vocation of pleasure seeker... Love and beaten ego Cybele >From: Robert Kirkpatrick >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:30:47 -0800 (PST) > >Patience, patience; that is always the key. >Robert >--- Amara wrote: > > > > > > > > > I thought that 'khianti' was in the original Pali! > > ;-)) > > > 3321 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 1:43pm Subject: Re: A Question on a Sutta > When > you say you have become wary of translators, does that include those > who translate Pali into Thai? Dear Jim, Don't get me started! Perhaps not so much the misinterpretation as the aechaic and very often regional usage of the Thai in the early translations, though, that sometimes is the direct opposite of modern Thai which makes it very confusing! The more modern translations are closer to the modern Thai but often lacking in what most people consider appropriate language for example the royal vocabulary reserved for the royal family, apparently they did not take into consideration that Buddha was a crown prince by birth, etc., etc... You see that we are attached even to language, how pannatti is presented!!! And in our mana we often think our way is best, although everyone is probably doing the best they can according to their own understanding, in the service of the dhamma, the truth. (Mike would probably be saying 'pontificating again!') Amara 3322 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:20am Subject: Re: Brief (to Amara) Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Second Mailing Hi, Robert - In a message dated 2/8/01 9:51:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > Howard, > Did you read the message below a few days ago? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, thank you. ------------------------------------------------------ BTW I must > endorse the importance of the Patisambhidhimagga . Note the > translation, the Path of Discrimination , is a rather unusual > one . To get the gist it os helpful to refer to the glossary > which has the pali words that the translator refers to. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. I have ordered the book (quite expensive, BTW). I intend to study it carefully, including the glossary. ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert > ================================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3323 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 2:26pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is > described in terms of observing the rise and fall of > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. The name of the sutta is "Samaddhi Sutta" kom 3324 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Just subscribed - Rob Dear Cybele, Yes I am insensitive and cruel and worse. Sorry. --- cybele chiodi wrote: > Okay that I am not supposed to have 'self' but you just > ignored my arrival > in the list; I feel dejected, you insensitive, cruel male! ;-) > Promise if I don't learn detachment interacting with you I am > really beyond > redemption! I will give up and return to my original vocation > of pleasure > seeker... Pleasure and wisdom can go together. Welcome to the list Cybele. You are going to be a great asset. Robert p.s. i am trying to make my letters much briefer, as I am way behind on work projects. 3325 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Dan, --- Dan Dalthorp wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Your post is wonderful, and not overkill at all. You > always bring such > clear and unique explanations... thanks Dan...just occasionally..and you always bring..some really tricky comments & questions in reply!! > > Despite this, I STILL have a question. Good. > We should definitely not stop regular meals and > exercise because these > are things that help keep our minds sharp and clear > and help condition > seeing reality as it is. an indirect link perhaps.. but no help if we haven't heard, considered etc.... After all, it is difficult > to see clearly the > rise and fall of dhammas, the dukkha inherent in > clinging, the anatta > of the cittas, etc. when the mind is clouded by > hunger (or > over-eating) or by indolence and lethargy. If there has been all that hearing and considering and even a very beginning level of panna developed, the clouded mind, indolence and lethargy conditioned at these times can all be objects of awareness...as discussed during Bruce's blurry nicotine withdrawal phase! > > Buddha saw samadhi as important enough to include as > one of the > factors on the eightfold path (samadhi in its samma > form, i.e. > suppression of the nivarana). If we're talking about the 8fold path, we're not talking about suppression, but about accompanying rt understanding which understands realities so that the kilesa are eradicated. >Isn't this in part > because the strong > clinging to self and the accumulations of lobha, > dosa and moha when > they appear, in addition to all the other realities > as explained by > the Buddha can be very subtle? I don't think this is the reason for samma samadhi to be included in the 8fold path. As Jonothan & Robert have been pointing out, ekagatta cetasika accompanies every citta and can be kusala or akusala. In order for samma ditthi to do its job it needs to be supported by samma samadhi (samma ekaggata). It's true that some realities can be hard to see and know, so they're subtle in this sense. However, some of the kilesa which may have seemed subtle or not apparent at all in the past may be appearing as pretty gross today. In the same way the lobha arising as soon as we open our eyes now, which seems very subtle, may become more apparent in the future and so on. >To see the dhammas as > they really > are is not so easy as reading about them, thinking > about them, > discussing them. No, because though these are useful, or rather essential conditions, they are not the same as a moment of direct awareness of a reality appearing now. >Formal practice, when done > correctly, certainly > helps. What is formal practice? Can we say a moment of right understanding of reality now is formal practice? Back to the meaning of bhavana.... >How to practice correctly? Not an easy > question to answer, but > with an understanding of Dhamma, sati is recognized > when it arises. With diligent and ardent practice, >the mind may > gradually learn to > recognize sati, the conditions for arising of sati, > and how to effect > those conditions for the arising of sati. When we say the mind, can we say instead that panna (understanding) understands and sati (awareness) is aware of.... >Then, the > meditator will > then be able to sit cross-legged with body erect and > bring sati to the > fore. Remember, no meditator, no self...to bring sati or anything else to the fore...or 'to effect those conditions'. If anyone likes to sit in this way fine...my yoga friends can do so for many hours...but, no rules! Bhavanamayapanna is not as easy as reading and > thinking. Agreed. As I mentioned in my long (I fear too long) post to Kom, after hearing and considering a lot and intellectually understanding the anattaness or realities conditioned at this moment, sati of satipatthana, however brief and unclear, can begin to be aware of these same realities. Intellectual right understanding and direct right understanding need to work together and support each other. I also mentioned that if there is no confidence or understanding that sati can be aware at this moment and there is the recurring idea that a meditator needs to be aware at another moment, this in itself is a condition for no awareness, no understanding now. To borrow a quote from Robert (thanks Rob): Kindred sayings about the truths Text V, 440, LVI, xii, iv, vii The parable of the sun "Monks just as the dawn is the forerunner, the harbinger, of the arising of the sun, even so is right view the forerunner, the harbinger of fully comprehending the four noble truths" Best wishes, Dan, and looking forward to more of your stimulating, brain-eating posts! Sarah I'd hoped to also refer to the indriya and balancing of these, but this will have to wait! 3326 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Alex, Glad to help a little. I always enjoy your reflections. --- <> wrote: > It sure helps. I see that if "sitting" helps, do > it. Just don't > consider it as the ultimate way to overcome the > kilesa. Back to the citta and cetasika (state of mind and mental states) rather than the 'background music'.. My monks > remind us again and again that more than 99% of the > so-called > vipassana meditators are doing samattha anyway, > because we tend to > develop subtle lobha for the pleasant feeling and > get lost in that > feeling. It's almost like being addicted. This doesn't sound like any samatha either to me! At this moment, is there any understanding of whether the citta is kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome)? Most the time, not, but occasionally it's clear. For example if there is a momement of friendliness and helping others (metta) it can be known for a moment as being kusala. This is a moment of samatha (but not of vipassana because there is no understanding of reality). On the other hand, if we're happily walking in a quiet forest, doing yoga or listening to music, it may seem very quiet and tranquil and calm, but this is lobha. Most the time when we're sitting quietly and peacefully and feeling so free from all that dosa, there is lobha and moha. There is lobha as soon as we open our eyes or hear a sound. It's much more common than dosa, but do we mind about it? If it is truly the development of samatha, the citta has to be kusala and there has to be clear understanding of how the object conditions kusala citta. > > That's why I think that while sitting, walking > slowly or normally, > or doing anything, the most important part is seeing > the paramattha > dhammas occuring to us at the moment, remembering > the 3 characters: > impermanence, unsatisfaction, and no-self, > especially the no-self > part. Yes, I agree....slowly, slowly understanding.... Sarah 3327 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 3:54pm Subject: welcome and enlightened Dear Darren Glad you've joined us. I'm English too but unfortunately our nationality doesn't give us a short-cut on this path!! Your questions are very relevant to the dhamma and to this dsg list (known as the brain-eaters' list by some of our more mischievous members). Like Amara said, I wonder whether it would actually help us to know the answers to these questions about enlightenment? The only way to know, is to begin at the beginning and to know a little more about what life really consists of at this moment. I liked your 2nd post to Ven D. because it was very honest. It's true that we all want to experience the pleasant and avoid the unpleasant. So the wanting is a big part of the problem and the idea that 'I' can achieve, make an effort, prevent the suffering etc is another big part... Look forward to hearing more from you. Sarah p.s. I live overseas, but whereabouts do you live? At least 2 members of the group live in London. --- wrote: > Hello, everyone. My name is Darren > and I am english. I have joined this > group to learn from you. I have many > questions to ask because I have not > studied the dhamma under the > guidanceof any learned teacher. Here > are a few questions to begin > althoughthey are unrelated to the > dhamma. How many enlightened people > are there on this planet? Have you > met even a stream enterer? What > percentage of buddists (can you > imagine) are enlightened? Is > enlightenment a realistic > expectationin this lifetime? Bye > fornow. > > > 3328 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante Dear Bhante >> > > > > Dear Bhante > > >Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > > > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! > >I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) Can I dare to investigate? Is it true that you are coming to Singapore in February or is gossip? I am staying very close in Malaysia. See I have spies working for me full time... > > > What a cute, nice, humorous message! > >I am not the ogre that some may think I am! I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this >you > > will become my hero promise! ;-) > >No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! This is cute also; lately you are too smart... >Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) Please noooo, mercy!!! Now that I was starting to relax... ;-) > > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I >use > > it in future quoting the 'source'? > > >Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) Greedy, greedy, greedy...shame on you! ;-))) > > > Metta and mudita > > >Ditto! Right back at you! > > Cybele > > >Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante Droll Bhante...that is good too, can I address you like this from now on? Please a little bit of fun!! ;-))) Love and respect Cybele 3329 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:18pm Subject: Thankyou Dear Mike, my name is Darren Wright. The message you read was a reply to Bhante's question, 'why are you interested in the buddhadhamma?' Dear Sarah, I live in Southern England in Portsmouth. I Dear Amara, your answer to my questions on enlightenment has ended a young mans curiosity. It is a subject unfit for attention because it arises sceptical doubt. 3330 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll > and Mr. Hyde" > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > Actually this is a good point and reminder here. Just as we cling to this 'self' and take it seriously, we also cling to the idea of other 'selves' and beings and take them seriously as well, forgetting that we're all bundles of different phenomena with ever-changing characteristics. By the time we cling to the idea of some 'character', it's long since gone! ;-) ;-) Thanks, Sarah 3331 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Thankyou Dear Darren, Both I and another member, Alan, come from Chichester, about 20 or 30 kilometres from you! Please continue to ask any questions...They're all fit for attention. Please be patient with us too. Sometimes we don't know how much or little someone has read and considered about the Buddha's teachings when we first meet here. Also, feel free to ignore any posts which sound too complicated or are not of interest and ask your own questions. Many topics may cause us to have sceptical doubt, but that's fine. They can still be considered. Sarah --- wrote: > Dear Mike, my name is Darren Wright. > The message you read was a reply to > Bhante's question, 'why are you > interested in the buddhadhamma?' > Dear Sarah, I live in Southern > England in Portsmouth. I > Dear Amara, your answer to my > questions on enlightenment has ended > a young mans curiosity. It is a > subject unfit for attention because > it arises sceptical doubt. > > > 3332 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 6:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] (unknown) dear darren, As buddha said a person can only be judged by carefully observing and intelligently experimenting about him/her. Its even possible to live with an enlightened person without even knowing he/she has achieved such a noble achievement. One of Buddha's similes for an enlightened person is ' a palm tree thats uprooted but kept upright '..people from distances will see the tree and believe that its a normal tree but the difference is the tree is not growing anymore, its released . I believe that the world is not devoid of the enlightened ones, and who knows we already may have met some of them. To learn dhamma , the factor No1 is a friend, teacher who makes the pure teachings of the buddha available for us(regardless of his/ her 'personal' state of enlightenment) , as robert told us a story from the texts, where 60000 monks attained full enlightenment by listening to the pure dhamma preached by a person who was not yet even a sotapanna( first stage of enlightenment). The pure Dhamma is still available in Text and in the way of noble friends. I wish you a fruitful journey with the Dhamma..with which you can gather many wonderful tools to fight with stress and unsatisfactoriness. Regds. 3333 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:40pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html 3334 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: Thankyou > Dear Amara, your answer to my > questions on enlightenment has ended > a young mans curiosity. It is a > subject unfit for attention because > it arises sceptical doubt. Dear Darren, I'm glad to have been of some help, but I also hope that what we discuss here will arouse more curiosity in other areas. What is there to study here in front of the computer, what is real and what is not? Sight is real, as are visible objects, hearing, sounds of the computer. All with specific characteristics very different one from the other, yet we take the whole as our persons sitting here reading. The more one studies the realities around us, the more we see that 'we' are only nama and rupa, under no one's control. I hope you will enjoy studying the truth about yourself and all the world, and as everyone says, any questions are very welcome here! Amara 3335 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 10:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas mike, i was just ready to post the below message when my automailchecker downloaded your message with the link -- we must be reading the same sutta at the same time, halfway around the globe from each other! re: > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is > described in terms of observing the rise and fall of > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. kom, was it you who posted this? if so, thanks! in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form of concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that a person actively develops and pursues.... concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? does anyone have the pali handy? here is the last part (worth quoting imho): "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html bruce 3336 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante Dear Cybele, There is the plan that I come to Singapore but I do not have the financial support to do so yet. Once the Foundation and the hospital project are more secure, then I can, perhaps, do some traveling to work on both those things even more. For now, it is just wait and see. Maha Metta, Diligent Dhammapiyo Bhante ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Droll Bhante > > Dear Bhante > > >> > > > > > > Dear Bhante > > > > >Dear Cybele, Namaskar! > > > > > You are a man, oops sorry a monk full of surprises! > > > >I am full of surprises and sometimes full of other things. ;-) > > > Can I dare to investigate? Is it true that you are coming to Singapore in > February or is gossip? I am staying very close in Malaysia. > See I have spies working for me full time... > > > > > > What a cute, nice, humorous message! > > > >I am not the ogre that some may think I am! > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > > > > > > I really enjoyed, no imposing tones at all, so light and cute; like this > >you > > > will become my hero promise! ;-) > > > >No need to become! The Blessed One is the hero! > > > This is cute also; lately you are too smart... > > > >Next time, I will try to be more imposing! Ha! ;-) > > Please noooo, mercy!!! Now that I was starting to relax... ;-) > > > > > That part about the Buddhist kind and swimmers was really great, can I > >use > > > it in future quoting the 'source'? > > > > >Sure. What's my percent of the royalties? ;-) > > Greedy, greedy, greedy...shame on you! ;-))) > > > > > > Metta and mudita > > > > >Ditto! Right back at you! > > > Cybele > > > > >Dhammapiyo Droll Bhante > > Droll Bhante...that is good too, can I address you like this from now on? > Please a little bit of fun!! ;-))) > > Love and respect > Cybele > > 3337 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:08pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Temple design Dear Mark, It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all depends on the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the way of feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific cultures, there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a hall with a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining image referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the face toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and there are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of reasons. There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different types of Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have symbolic content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a kind of zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces which are for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The Buddhist canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas and shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when I studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they were being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause the members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by their use cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on the Sangha, etc. could be used. I also found that although a few building forms were named in the Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list meaning any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, many formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to shape - round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment of the Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form (a concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) and these are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions such as respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on the other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space or one which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of respect (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there is a long tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms or ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind people of important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take birth in the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of the law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which was marked by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are narrative events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and there are other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in getting a specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the cultural context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, what is the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of symbolic reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha (and the development of right understanding?). Are these the dimension you had in mind? Wishing you well in your endeavour, Pinna > ---------- > From: Mark Rasmus > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Temple design > > Hello All, > Is there a special design that temples must follow or will any shape > building do. I am applying to local government to build a Buddhist > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia and would like some > advice on dimensions as I am putting the proposal in next week. > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles involved? > Any help would be appreciated. > Mark > 3338 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form of > concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic > supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... > > so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that a > person actively develops and pursues.... > > concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? > > or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? > > does anyone have the pali handy? > > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & > falling away with reference to the five > aggregates Dear friends, I suggest you compare the above with this passage from the chapter on Vipassana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section, : The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such > are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, > such its disappearance.' This is of course mindfulness of the 5 sankhara (aggregates, conglomerate, composed realities) form is probably translated from 'rupa', feeling from 'vedana' etc. which form what we take for us and the world around us, in other words, three of the four paramattha-dhamma exempting nibbana. This is the development of concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to the > ending of the effluents. " The study of the impermanence of realities to the right degree always does. Hope this helps, Amara PS It was a wonder you three read the same things on the same time day, especially Bruce and Mike almost at the same time! Life is full of strange 'coincidences', according to the intricacies of vipaka, isn't it? - your 'Pontiff' 3339 From: Date: Fri Feb 9, 2001 8:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi, Mike - I find the following sutta, found at the url you kindly provided, to be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the sutta below, inserting comments/questions: Samadhi Sutta Concentration For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Straightforward. Concentration for attaining the jhanas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of meditating on light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", which I usually take to be a code expression for insight. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Are these last two really separate? ------------------------------------------------------------ "These are the four developments of concentration. "And it was in connection with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to the Far Shore [Sn V.3]: > 'He who has fathomed > the far & near in the world, > for whom there is nothing > perturbing in the world -- > his vices evaporated, > undesiring, untroubled, > at peace -- > he, I tell you, has crossed over birth > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3340 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 9:12am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas hi pope amara i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it called a "form of concentration"? bruce At 15:15 2001/02/09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN IV 45 as the > > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, there is a form > of > > concentration that "when developed and pursued" leads not to jhanic > > supression of the nivarna, but to their eradication..... > > > > so the point being made is that there is form of concentration that > a > > person actively develops and pursues.... > > > > concentration? to be developed? is this samadhi-bhavana? > > > > or am i completely mistaken in my reading of this?? > > > > does anyone have the pali handy? > > > > > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > > pursued, leads to the ending of the > > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising > & > > falling away with reference to the five > > aggregates > > > Dear friends, > > I suggest you compare the above with this passage from the chapter > on Vipassana in the 'Summary' in the advanced section, > : > > The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana > differ in the aramana and > the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it > is steadily and uniquely > based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, > namely > nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as > aramana, which the > mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine > arammana by arammana, > regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are > not entities, persons, or the > selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala > in the brahma-bhumi. > The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the > characteristics of realities as > they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level > of lokuttara-magga-citta > with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which > completely eradicates > all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. > > > > for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its > origination, > > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, > such its > > origination, such its passing away. Such > > are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > > consciousness, such its origination, > > such its disappearance.' > > > This is of course mindfulness of the 5 sankhara (aggregates, > conglomerate, composed realities) form is probably translated from > 'rupa', feeling from 'vedana' etc. which form what we take for us and > the world around us, in other words, three of the four > paramattha-dhamma exempting nibbana. > > > This is the development of concentration > that, > > when developed & pursued, leads to the > > ending of the effluents. " > > > The study of the impermanence of realities to the right degree always > does. > > > Hope this helps, > > Amara > > PS It was a wonder you three read the same things on the same time > day, especially Bruce and Mike almost at the same time! Life is full > of strange 'coincidences', according to the intricacies of > vipaka, isn't it? - your 'Pontiff' > 3341 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 10:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Howard, I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi may refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and to see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated with the eightfactored path. Robert --- wrote: > Hi, Mike - > > I find the following sutta, found at the url you kindly > provided, to > be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the sutta > below, inserting > comments/questions: > > > Samadhi Sutta > > > > Concentration > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. > Which four? There > is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to > a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development > of > concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the > attainment of > knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There > is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. "And what is the development of > concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the > here & now? > There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn > from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first > jhana: rapture & > pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought > & evaluation. > With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters > & remains in > the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, > unification of > awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal > assurance. With > the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & > alert, and > physically sensitive to pleasure. He enters & remains in the > third jhana, of > which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a > pleasurable > abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with > the earlier > disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in > the fourth > jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure > nor pain. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to a > pleasant abiding in the here & now. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. Straightforward. Concentration for attaining the > jhanas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the > case where a monk > attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the > perception of > daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as > night, night > is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a > brightened mind. This is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & > vision. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of > meditating on > light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", > which I usually > take to be a code expression for insight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known > to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. > Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as > they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known > as they persist, > known as they subside. This is the development of > concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And > what is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on > arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates > for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing > away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing > away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such > are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Are these last two really separate? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > "These are the four developments of concentration. "And it > was in connection > with this that I stated in Punnaka's Question in the Way to > the Far Shore [ HREF="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp5-3.html">Sn > > V.3]: > > 'He who has fathomed > > the far & near in the world, > > for whom there is nothing > > perturbing in the world -- > > his vices evaporated, > > undesiring, untroubled, > > at peace -- > > he, I tell you, has crossed over birth > > > ================================= > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at > dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a > flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 3342 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 10:38am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert, When you said third, you meant the second type, right (Lokha sanna, samatha with light, etc.). I am in the same boat as Howard as not being able to understand the differences between the third (feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness) and the fourth type. Is this Satipathanna or pre-requsite to Satipathanna? kom --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear Howard, > I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite > answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi may > refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that > leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and to > see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the > final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated with > the eightfactored path. > Robert 3343 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Thank you Kom, and to think I used to be good at maths. Yes, I should have said the second; see below. "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the > case where a monk > attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the > perception of > daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as > night, night > is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & > unhampered, he develops a > brightened mind. This is the development of concentration > that, when > developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & > vision. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This I find odd, in two respects: 1) the specificity of > meditating on > light, and 2) seeing this as leading to "knowledge & vision", > which I usually > take to be a code expression for insight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Yes this is the one I meant that is not associated with the eightfactored path. Someone should check but I think it must mean the type of samadhi that gives special powers such as Anuruddha and other monks had. The difference beween the last two I would love a detailed commentary on. (I hope this is one of the sections where there is only a very terse commentary. ) To me it seems that the third is referring to the preliminary stages of satipatthana while the last are refering to the stages beyond the second vipassana nana. Robert _______________ > "And what is the development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, > leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where > feelings are known > to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as > they subside. > Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they > persist, known as > they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known > as they persist, > known as they subside. This is the development of > concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. "And > what is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on > arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates > for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such > its passing > away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing > away. Such is > perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such > are > fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. > Such is > consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' > This is the > development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, > leads to the > ending of the effluents. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Are these last two really separate? > ------------------------------------------------------------ > --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Robert, > > When you said third, you meant the second type, right (Lokha > sanna, > samatha with light, etc.). I am in the same boat as Howard as > not > being able to understand the differences between the third > (feelings > are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, > known as > they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, > known as they > persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as > they > arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is > the > development of concentration that, when > developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness) and the > fourth > type. Is this Satipathanna or pre-requsite to Satipathanna? > > kom > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear Howard, > > I think Jim or amara might be able to give you a definite > > answer.`in the meantime i think the third type of samadhi > may > > refer to that special type of highly developed samattha that > > leads one to be able to penentrate beyond normal vision and > to > > see devas and the like. If so it is quite different from the > > final type, which is the very profound samadhi associated > with > > the eightfactored path. > > Robert > > 3344 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:42am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > hi pope amara > > i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to > vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it called > a "form of concentration"? Dear all (a two handed blessing here) and venerable sir, namasakara, Please correct me if I am wrong in the following: In the beginning there were two realities... Nama and rupa, so mental development, bhavana, concerns uniquely the nama, but since all citta are the same, all knowing element, it is the cetasika that is in fact the determining factor of kusala or akusala. In the old days before the Buddha they didn't have any knowledge of the nature of citta and cetasika as arising and falling away, though they did know that if they did something kusala, kusala vipaka arose. Therefore they concentrated on the development of kusala citta, and found that concentration on something neutral could suppress akusala that arose from the sense dvara, plus a host of fringe benefits such as supernatural powers including birth for endless periods as a superior being exempt from dukkha, and even dosa for the brahma. But still they had to come back to be, so they still searched for a higher peace from kilesa. The Buddha was the one who discovered that the citta was not a single permanent entity but a series of realities arising and falling away, and that this knowledge could liberate from the endless samsara, and what no longer is born would not suffer any dukkha or impermanence of any kind. But no matter the amount of concentration (or the development of samadhi without satipatthana) could not bring about this knowledge if it a was concentrated on the single arammana, at that moment much kusala was developed, if done correctly, but not more panna of things as they really are. To develop that special panna that knows things as they really are to the strength that can completely eradicate kilesa one would need to know that the citta like all other realities is impermanent and not us, not the self, not under our control. The only way to see that is to gradually see the true characteristics of things as they really are through the study of satipatthana, the sati that arises with all kusala citta would accumulate knowledge that increases panna about all that arises ane appears to the citta and grow more and more powerful and confident and lessen attachment to realities that are not us or the world at all but things that arise and mislead us into clinging to the selves and the world. But as the ekaggata cetasika (concentration) is a universal cetasika that arises with ALL CITTA INCLUDING MICHA SAMADHI it arises with ALL BHAVANA OR MENTAL DEVELOPMENT. With samma samadhi it is greatly developed to concentrate on one reality so as to shut out all akusala for kusala to develop, whereas in satipatthana in vipassana, it arises with sati as samadhindriya to grow strong and powerful along with the other five cetasika that arise when there is study of realities as they really are, as the five magga: samma ditthi (panna), sankappa (vitaka), vayama (viriya) sati (sati), and samadhi (ekaggata). From this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana and all kilesa are completely eradicated...(at the moment of attainment the most kusala cetasika arise together besides the chief 8 magga cetasika, making altogether 36 kusala cetasika in all...) That's the finish line, so happy journey to all, my friends!!! Amara P. 3345 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 0:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas this is great amara -- clear, well-expounded, and beautifully written....thanks so much....it of course does bring up the big question (again), but i'll wait a while before i ask it (again)... bruce At 03:42 2001/02/10 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > hi pope amara > > > > i also thought the below-quoted the fourth form's similarities to > > vipassana-bhavana were noteworthy; what i'm wondering is, why is it > called > > a "form of concentration"? > > > Dear all (a two handed blessing here) and venerable sir, namasakara, > > Please correct me if I am wrong in the following: > > In the beginning there were two realities... Nama and rupa, so mental > development, bhavana, concerns uniquely the nama, but since all citta > are the same, all knowing element, it is the cetasika that is in fact > the determining factor of kusala or akusala. In the old days before > the Buddha they didn't have any knowledge of the nature of citta and > cetasika as arising and falling away, though they did know that if > they did something kusala, kusala vipaka arose. Therefore they > concentrated on the development of kusala citta, and found that > concentration on something neutral could suppress akusala that arose > from the sense dvara, plus a host of fringe benefits such as > supernatural powers including birth for endless periods as a superior > being exempt from dukkha, and even dosa for the brahma. But still > they had to come back to be, so they still searched for a higher peace > from kilesa. > > The Buddha was the one who discovered that the citta was not a single > permanent entity but a series of realities arising and falling away, > and that this knowledge could liberate from the endless samsara, and > what no longer is born would not suffer any dukkha or impermanence of > any kind. But no matter the amount of concentration (or the > development of samadhi without satipatthana) could not bring about > this knowledge if it a was concentrated on the single arammana, at > that moment much kusala was developed, if done correctly, but not more > panna of things as they really are. To develop that special panna > that knows things as they really are to the strength that can > completely eradicate kilesa one would need to know that the citta like > all other realities is impermanent and not us, not the self, not under > our control. The only way to see that is to gradually see the true > characteristics of things as they really are through the study of > satipatthana, the sati that arises with all kusala citta would > accumulate knowledge that increases panna about all that arises ane > appears to the citta and grow more and more powerful and confident and > lessen attachment to realities that are not us or the world at all but > things that arise and mislead us into clinging to the selves and the > world. > > But as the ekaggata cetasika (concentration) is a universal cetasika > that arises with ALL CITTA INCLUDING MICHA SAMADHI it arises with ALL > BHAVANA OR MENTAL DEVELOPMENT. With samma samadhi it is greatly > developed to concentrate on one reality so as to shut out all akusala > for kusala to develop, whereas in satipatthana in vipassana, it arises > with sati as samadhindriya to grow strong and powerful along with the > other five cetasika that arise when there is study of realities as > they really are, as the five magga: samma ditthi (panna), sankappa > (vitaka), vayama (viriya) sati (sati), and samadhi (ekaggata). From > this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika > arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana > and all kilesa are completely eradicated...(at the moment of > attainment the most kusala cetasika arise together besides the chief > 8 magga cetasika, making altogether 36 kusala cetasika in all...) > > That's the finish line, so happy journey to all, my friends!!! > > Amara P. > 3346 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:19pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Sarah, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > Agreed. As I mentioned in my long (I fear too long) Just to let you know that your efforts are not wasted, I actually read them! I love details; otherwise, I start speculating... kom 3347 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:05pm Subject: Re: Temple design Hello Pinna, Thank you for your reply. The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as well or can it be on the south side. You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this preferable over a rectanglar building. The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. Thankyou again for your helpful advice. Mark --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > Dear Mark, > It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all depends on > the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the way of > feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific cultures, > there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a hall with > a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining image > referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the face > toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and there > are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of reasons. > There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different types of > Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have symbolic > content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a kind of > zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces which are > for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The Buddhist > canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas and > shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when I > studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they were > being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause the > members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by their use > cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on the > Sangha, etc. could be used. > I also found that although a few building forms were named in the > Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list meaning > any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, many > formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to shape - > round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment of the > Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form (a > concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) and these > are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions such as > respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on the > other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders of the > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space or one > which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of respect > (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there is a long > tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms or > ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind people of > important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take birth in > the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of > enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of the > law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which was marked > by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are narrative > events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and there are > other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. > I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in getting a > specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the cultural > context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, what is > the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of symbolic > reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha > (and the development of right understanding?). > Are these the dimension you had in mind? > Wishing you well in your endeavour, > Pinna > > 3348 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Sarah and dear all >Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > I notice that all of us are a kind of "Doctor Jekyll > > and Mr. Hyde" > > sometimes, don't you think so? ;-) > > Indeed we should never take ourselves too seriously. > > You wrote: >Actually this is a good point and reminder here. Just >as we cling to this 'self' and take it seriously, we >also cling to the idea of other 'selves' and beings >and take them seriously as well, forgetting that we're >all bundles of different phenomena with ever-changing >characteristics. > >By the time we cling to the idea of some 'character', >it's long since gone! ;-) ;-) > >Thanks, > >Sarah Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop some wisdom and compassion in the Path. I am often deceived but I must say that persisting in this awareness training I find my mind opposing less resistance to it, the grasping is there but somehow is not tight as before. It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is heartening for me to realize that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit, influences my life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems to melt away, to subside to bare attention. I am always 'fighting out' but somehow I am making peace increasingly often as my practice unfolds. My enthusiasm for Dhamma never fades away, it becomes brighter more the years pass by; a different quality of enthusiasm, less overflowing but constant like a presence, real, solid, strenghtening and calm. This strange quality of calmness is like an anchor in the middle of the inner storms of my passionate temperament. All the hindrances are there but how to say, the bondage is weakened, just a little bit but makes me savour a taste of freedom and it's liberating. Love and respect Cybele 3349 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 5:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce ------------------------------------------------ ["Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, the middle and the end ... those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views." The answer is to a large extent given in the same passage. Considering of dhammas is what follows if one has listened to the correct teachings about dhammas, remembered those teachings, thought/talked about them, and borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha.] Now the windshield is starting to fog up: "borne them in mind in the way meant by the Buddha." how does one "bear something in mind"? and more to the point: how did the Buddha mean for one to bear them in mind?? ---------------------------------------------- ‘Borne in mind’, and ‘reflected on’ later, were my (rough) paraphrase of the terms ‘accumulated’ and ‘examined with his mind’ appearing in the passage above from the Panna Sutta. I agree, it's difficult to readily identify the different nuances of each particular form of 'study', for that is what these factors are. Without going to the commentary, I couldn’t give the precise meaning of the original, and I would rather not speculate. I was simply trying to highlight the general thrust in that passage of the need to ‘listen, retain, discuss, accumulate, examine and penetrate in terms of views’. This was in response to (what I read as being) your suggestion that actual noticing/doing was all that mattered so that someone who had the hang of that was somehow no longer in need of more listening and thinking (but apologies if I was inferring something that was not there). More to the point, however, is that it is only if each of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, retaining, etc, is in turn correct that there can be any attainment of sati or panna. It is important to get things right from the very beginning. As regards the listening, for example, this would mean hearing the dhamma correctly explained, and hearing it explained in a manner appropriate to our ability to understand it. The dhamma is often characterised as a path of discovery by self-exertion; in fact, it is a path of discovery by listening to others (the right others, of course). --------------------------------------------- i have a strong suspicion that what i'm "doing" during so-called "formal practice" may not be so different from what you're "doing" during so-called "considering" or "bearing in mind".... [It is a level of understanding conditioned by what one has heard, remembered etc, about dhammas.] exactly. and there is no other way that i will understand these objects, except by considering them in light of what i've heard and remembered, what i've learned. and i think this is what i'm doing during formal practice.... --------------------------------------------- It is only natural to want to think that what we’re now doing is the right thing, to rationalise or seek reassurance about our position/actions. But we should be wary of this tendency. It is in fact nothing more than a conceit (I am speaking here from personal experience), one that leads us to try to fit the teachings to our own ‘practice’ (ie. wrong views). It would be more to our benefit to examine critically to see in what ways our idea of practice or development of the path differs from what can be verified from a study of the texts as being the proper development. The unmasking of our wrong views, gross or subtle, is what will allow us to progress, since it is this particular form of akusala, rather than the lobha or dosa that we can readily see, that is the main hindrance. Jon PS ----------------------------------------------- sorry jonathan, sometimes this thing misfires (no, not the howitzer, just my judgement). i'm still working on an emoticon for "meant in jest" #8?b ----------------------------------------------- MIJ is exactly how I read you, and how my own reply was intended. No probs whatsoever here. As for emoticons, I can see some potential for their use where meaning might otherwise be open to interpretation. But were you saying in another post that Mac owners were at a disadvantage in this regard? (I had always imagined that being a Mac owner would somehow be a definite plus on the path to enlightenment.) 3350 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:33pm Subject: Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear group, I had a discussion with a few people recently who have doubts about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and even the Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper confidence is to learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. Nonetheless it can be damaging to incipient confidence to hear people refuting these sources. I put together this series of letters on the matter as some may find it edifying. The only name I left on was Cybeles – and she was someone who found it useful to read. It is rather long so don't bother to read if it is not to your interest. ______ I think we should not place much confidence in the commentaries. Buddhaghosa and his successor Dhammapala laid the foundations of Theravada, and are basically equivalent to the founders or patriarchs in the other schools, whether or not he is so labeled. Buddhaghosa wrote the commentarial literature of Theravada, and key texts like the Visuddhimagga. Theravada is of course based on the words of the Buddha, but so is every other school. What makes Theravada distictly Theravada, and not Sarvastivada, for example, are these commentaries and subtexts, which give the Theravada position and emphasis. _________ Robert: As is made clear by Buddhaghosa himself he was an editor and translator of the ancient commentaries, not the originator. Some of these ancient commentaries date back to the time of the Buddha himself and were rehearsed at the first council. Others were added at a later time but still before Buddhaghosa. He took care not to add in his own opinions. Robert __________> > I don't see how one can possibly know that he did not add in his own opinions. ________________________ Robert: Dear friend, Buddhaghosa sometimes quotes two ancient teachers, and sometimes three, and notes that there was a minor difference of opinion about some matter. Sometimes Buddhaghosa won't reach a decision and simply notes the division. If he does come out in favour of one point he takes pains to let us know that this is only his opinion - the least trustworthy guide, as he notes. He writes(The Visuddhimagga III64) that a teacher "who knows the texts, guards the heritage, and protects the tradition, will follow the teachers'(the elders) opinion rather than his own." I find the commentaries very much in-line with the Tipitika. They help me make sense of it all. That doesn't make them true though. I think it is hard to prove anything, isn't it? ________ > May I ask, which of the ancient commentaries were recited at the first council? And what evidence do you have for this? _________ Robert: I found this in the attakattha to the Dhammasangani (first book of the Abhidhamma) the Atthasalini: from the introductory discourse "The ancient commentary therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers, Mahinda bought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,.."endquote ________ I am not sure, but I believe this is referring to the actual > Dhammasangani[not the commentary]. Robert: I asked a friend, who is a pali scholar, to look over the passage in the atthasalini. He wrote that it is indeed a reference to the ancient commentary: """The Pali of verse 13 on page 1 is: 13. Yaa Mahaakassapaadiihi vaasiih'a.t.thakathaa puraa sa"ngiitaa anusa"ngiitaa pacchaa pi ca isiihi yaa My translation runs like this: "The commentary which was earlier recited by the residents beginning with Mahaakassapa and later recited again by the sages also . . ." This is only part of a long sentence. The mulatika interprets "anusa"ngiitaa" as meaning: recited again at the second and third councils. It is not yet clear to me which commentary was being recited and how much of it is preserved in the Atthasalini or other texts. I understand that the ancient commentaries were handed down and ended up surviving in Sinhalese texts which Buddhaghosa then restored back into their Pali originals with some editing and cleaning up. I notice that on page 109 at the beginning of part III of The Expositor, there's a reference to the Great Commentary as the source of the Discourse on Doors but I don't know if this is the same commentary recited at the first council. In the Vinayanidaana there is the mentioning of Moggalitissa Thera* (third council) as having learnt the commentaries. *"Whilst yet being a novice, Tissa mastered together with the commentary, the entire word of the Buddha with the exception of the Vinaya Pitaka." --transl. N.A. Jayawickrama, Vinayanidaana, VA i p.41"" _________________________ I find it implausible that even an > actual Dhammasangani existed at the time of the first council considering no > mention of it in the first councils account, but only mention of nikaya and Ų vinaya represented by the two arahants Upali and Ananda.>>> " Ų _____________________ Robert: The Attahasalini (expositor) p32 "Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units" Majjhima Nikaya Mahagosingha sutta "the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma" Gulissaani Sutta (M 69) > aarańńikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo > "Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya" Vinaya pitaka "If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense" Vinaya iv 344 __________ Why should we believe the old commentaries. Here is an explanation by Ven.Bodhi: > "Though the word cannot refer here to the Pitaka of that name - obviously > the product of a phase of Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas - it may > well indicate a systematic and analytical approach to the doctrine that > served as the original nucleus of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. In a careful study > of the contexts in which the word 'Abhidhamma' occurs in the Sutta Pitakas > of several early recensions, the Japanese Pali scholor Fumimaro Watanabe > concludes that the Buddha's own disciples formed the conception of > Abhidhamma as an elementary philosophical study that attempted to define, > analyse, and classify dhammas and to explore their mutual relations." Ų --MN trans. pg. 1225 Ų _______________________ Robert: Yes I saw that by venerable Bodhi. I think he is reckless in saying this. He relies on a present day scholar (fumimaro watanabe of japan). I prefer to accept the words of the ancients. I do not think those of today are more wise. From the expositor p16-17 it notes that the buddha in the 4th week after his enlightenment he contemplated the Dhammasangani (ist section of abhidhamma) "and while he contemplated the Dhammasangani his body did not emit rays; .. but when it came to the great book (the Patthana of the Abhidhamma) he began to contemplate the 24 conditions..his omniscience found its opportunity therein.." I have visted the site in Bodhgaya and it is marked by a marble tablet about 20 meters from the site where he sat under the Bodhi tree. I think there will always be those who doubt the Abhidhamma. Nothing can prove it to them. Those who get a glimpse of its truths would feel that only a Buddha could have expounded such a deep teaching. Others feel that it was added in. But they can't explain when this plot happened; how did it occur?.Saying something is the Buddha's teaching when it is not is a grave kamma; why wasn't such a huge lie admonished by other monks. . Anyway just to show I am not the only person who believes the abhidhamma was rehearsed at the first council here is a part of a text ABHIDHAMMA AND VIPASSANA Sitagu Sayadaw The abhidhamma which the venerable Sariputta heard in brief from the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the abhidhamma from the venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time - the full moon day of Waso - because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana. And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh rains- retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika sattapakaranika). The Buddha first assembled the entire Dhamma and taught it all together (as the Dhammasangani). He then analyzed it into separate parts and taught (the Vibhanga). He further analyzed it in detail according to elements (producing thereby, the Dhatukatha). Again he assembled it together and again analyzed it into minute parts, this time in relation to individuals, (and so taught the Puggalapannati). After that, the Buddha examined and compared the different doctrines existing in the world and taught (the Kathavatthu). Thereupon, he examined and taught the Dhamma in pairs (Yamaka); and finally, taught the doctrine of causal relations in detail (Pathana). The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana. endquote >________________ I have some doubt of the claim above, regarding the fifth > book "Kathavatthu". I thought that book was written by Ven Moggalana > Tissa in King Asoka's period, and the various doctrines mentioned in Ų it appeared long after the Buddha's Parinibbana. Ų _______________ > Robert: Glad to see your interest. This may ease your doubts. The Atthasalini explains that when it came to the Kathavatthu the Buddha forsaw the future misintepretations that would arise. The Buddha then "laid down a table of contents in a text not quite as long as one recital, to be adopted in all the discourse". Thus it wasn't complete until the great arahant Tissa(mogali's son) expanded it at the third council. It had to wait until that time to be completed as many of the wrong ideas didn't come about until then. ____________________ These > explanations in the Atthasalini make me laugh considering the Buddha taught > according to present situations. Do the commentaries ever admit that they Ų don't know the origin of a text? Ų ___________________ Laughter can arise with lobha-mula citta one of the interesting distinctions explained in the Abhidhamma. I see where your doubt lies: I gave such a terse note that it must look dubious. Here is more from the atthasalini The Buddha "laid down a table of contents in a text not quite as long as one recital, to be adopted in all the discourses.: Is the person known in the sense of real and ultimate fact? nay that cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation. Is the person unknown in the same way as any real and ultimate fact is known? Nay it cannot be. Acknowledge your refutation."" It carries on and repeats different questions in eight different aspects. In fact I think the section they are attributing directly to the Buddha is fairly brief. Knowing this it doesn't seem surprising that the Buddha should have taught it in expectation of future wrong views challenging the Dhamma. Few, of course, could never have expanded it in the beautiful way (or any way) that mogalitissa did - he was an arahant with the four discriminations. __________ I think we must inquire into the truth about things not just have faith. ________________________ Robert: I couldn't agree more with your last sentence. How to inquire though. We can never prove by textual evidence that the Abhidhamma was the Buddhas word. But can we prove that the suttanta was either? Can we even prove that the Buddha wasn't just a legend- maybe the whole Tipititka was just a hodge-podge of different ideas and stories. I think the only way to develop confidence in the veracity of the Abhidhamma and commentaries is by studying the details and testing them against the dhammas that are arising now in daily life. In other words 'inquiring into the truth of things' as you put it. Vipassana is a bit of a catch-phrase these days but it is nothing other than Abhidhamma - seeing paramattha dhammas as they are. Historical studies may help if they encourage us to want to prove the abhidhamma directly; or they may hinder if we accept the words of such scholars as von hinuber (who say it was just a later addition). Sitagu sayadaw writes: "Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana." .. end quote ________________ "Cybele Chiodi" wrote: > Hi Robert > > Robert what you said: > > “”>For this reason > >it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the > >Abhidhamma - this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had > >listened to since their ordination - was the very day they mastered > >the practice of Vipassana. endquote > > > > > I am still merely crawling in the study of Abhidhamma and this is just to > share an impression really worthing 2 cents but what interests me most is > this consistent aspect of dinamic meditation that is sealed in the very > structure of the text, the idea of this continuative, life lasting state of > meditative mind that unfolds when you get skilled in observing nama rupa is > very supportive as I cannot spend my existence sitting in formal meditation > denying life. > I am don't have a vocation for being a nihilist. Robert: Cybele, Just to note that those weren't my words but those of the Burmese monk Sitagu sayadaw. He wrote so well here. It is just as you say "sealed in the structure of the text". These days too many people study Abhidhamma as if it were an academic subject. A type of system that one learns about. Actually it is simply the way things really are at this very moment. No self, only namas and rupas. Vipassana has got new connotations since it became a fad. But the real one is nothing other than an uncovering of reality as described perfectly in the Abhidhamma. It has to be a "life-lasting" development as you indicate. We have to learn to study paramattha dhammas (fundamental phenomena) in every aspect of life so that the deepest and hidden clingings to self can be uprooted. If we preference one part of life over another then it shows we are still thinking in terms of control and situation amd concept. Sitting very still in meditation - there are only namas and rupas (no self).Or writing at the computer now - is it taken for "me" writing or is there direct study to see that it is only different conditioned moments. Feeling happy or sad? not you or me, only vedana khanda (aggregate of feeling), a conditioned, impermanent dhamma. Craving or anger arise? They too are not self. They arise because there are the right conditions for them to occur. You really seem to have an affinity for this Cybele. Much appreciated Robert 3351 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 6:48pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear all, A corrigenda as usual, older friend know and expect lots of mistakes in my writings: first, in my last message I said, > From > this beginning, there would be increasing numbers of kusala cetasika > arising, until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana > and all kilesa are completely eradicated... Which should have been 'until the eight magga arise together with nibbana as arammana according to the strength of the panna, to eradicate kilesa of that respective level, until all kilesa are completely eradicated.' Another ancient mistake pointed out by a friend, in message no. 3062, I said, I think of the first time the Venerable Sariputta heard the dhamma form the bhikkhu who hadn't attained anything but because what was said was the true dhamma, the Venerable Sariputta was able to understand and attained a level of wisdom before the person who taught it to him, according to his accumulations. This is inaccurate because the Venerable Assaji was one of the Pancavaggiya to whom the Buddha first preached after his enlightenment. They all attained different levels the first two days, and on the third all all had attained arahantship. The Venerable Sariputta met him about a year later. Sorry if I mislead anyone, Amara Signing off till tomorrow, have to go now! 3352 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 7:54pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi Jon, You wrote: > More to the point, however, is that it is only if each > of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, retaining, > etc, is in turn correct that there can be any > attainment of sati or panna. It is important to get > things right from the very beginning. Does this mean that there can't be any attainment of sati or panna until wrong view is eliminated? And that wrong view is eliminated by listening, retaining, etc.? I do hope you can answer my questions. Dan 3353 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear group, How important is hearing the true Dhamma? Pathama Parisuddha Sutta Vihara Vagga, Magga Samyutta Mahavagga Samyutta, Samyutta Nikaya, Suttanta Pitaka SOURCE: "Three Groups of Related Discourses from MAHAVAGGA SAMYUTTA" Translated by Professor U Ko Lay, Yangon Edited by the Editorial Committee, DFPPS (Myanmar Tipitaka Association), 1998 First Discourse on Dhammas which is completely pure 16. The Bhagava was staying at Savatthi. (He said:) Bhikkhus, these are eight dhammas which are completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which bad not arisen before and which do not arise except when a Homage- Worthy, perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. What are these eight dhammas? They are Right View, Right ... p ... Right Concentration. These, Bhikkhus, are the eight dhammas which are completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which had not arisen before and which do not arise except when a Homage-Worthy, Perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. For some, such as sariputta, a sentence is enough to understand. Others need more details. Most of us even when we hear many details still misinterpret- to some degree- and see it all through the eyes of 'self". It takes time and great honesty to uncover our clingings to self view. robert 3354 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Khun Amara, A most excellent summation--Saadhu, Ma'am... mike 3355 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 10, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > At > this moment, is there any understanding of whether the > citta is kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome)? > Most the time, not, but occasionally it's clear. For > example if there is a momement of friendliness and > helping others (metta) it can be known for a moment as > being kusala. This is a moment of samatha (but not of > vipassana because there is no understanding of > reality). > > On the other hand, if we're happily walking in a quiet > forest, doing yoga or listening to music, it may seem > very quiet and tranquil and calm, but this is lobha. > Most the time when we're sitting quietly and > peacefully and feeling so free from all that dosa, > there is lobha and moha. There is lobha as soon as we > open our eyes or hear a sound. It's much more common > than dosa, but do we mind about it? > > If it is truly the development of samatha, the citta > has to be kusala and there has to be clear > understanding of how the object conditions kusala > citta. Dear Sarah, I like your explanation. Thank you. Much appreciation, Alex 3356 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Robert You wrote: >Yesterday I went for my yearly checkup (paid for by work). They >give you a rating afterwards and my one had improved noticeably. >It is tempting to think that this could be related to the more >than usual writing, study and thinking about Dhamma I have been >doing over the last year . This would be foolish. Even subtle >types of lobha if developed can improve health and give one a >glowing complexion; it is preferable to dosa but it doesn't >equate with the path. And even if there has been more kusala >this year, (actually I have not had time to do much of the >akusala I would probably like to do) it doesn't mean that I was >developing satipatthana; there are many types of kusala. > It means nothing for the future too. Next year it might be a >bad report. More than that if conditions are right a kamma from >the past might arise and cut life off even in the next minute. I >may feel very content and satisfied about all "my" Dhamma >activities, but this is just conceit- it will not help in >samsara. Good to know this. >Robert It's also good to know that you are in such excellent health conditions and safe and sound, here in South East Asia they would say that is because of your accumulated merits; for me means that you have enough strenght to support all your dhamma friends along the Path. Very good to know this, indeed! I rejoice with you. ;-) Love and teasing Cybele 3357 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 10:59am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > it of course does bring up the big question > (again), but i'll wait a while before i ask it (again)... My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) Your enthusiasm for the dhamma is indeed an inspiration, it is wonderful to see, anumodana in all your studies. Bruce, please don't keep the 'big question' on hold too long, do remember we all have fire burning on our heads! Thanks for the terrific proofreading. Dan, thanks for the fantastic questions, livens the place up beautifully! Sir Mike, your links are invaluable, as is your humor, and how are your glossary files coming? Dartagnan, I mean, Gayan, your knowledge of the Tipitaka and Commentaries are really a great asset to the list, thank you for the 'vancaka', specially! [Which makes me the evil Cardinal Richelieu, I suppose, (NYAAHHH HAH HAH HAH!!!) to keep you on your toes!] Anyway it's a great pleasure seeing your posts, anumodana, =^_^= Amara CR 3358 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop some > wisdom and compassion in the Path. > I am often deceived but I must say that persisting in this awareness > training I find my mind opposing less resistance to it, the grasping is > there but somehow is not tight as before. > It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is heartening for me to realize > that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit, influences my > life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems to melt > away, to subside to bare attention. Dear all, I suggest we hold the pots and pans and our urges to devour her brain because she will need all she has to study realities (as opposed to just function)!! Let us give her a good brainwashing instead(!!!) and nourish her with lots of food for thought from the Tipitaka so we could all walk the path together, with another great friend in the dhamma! So glad you're here, Cybele (by the way, what a beautiful name! How exactly do you pronounce it and does it mean anything? Hope I'm not too curious), =^_^= Amara 3359 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:08am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Bhikkhus, these are eight dhammas which are completely pure, > perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, which bad not arisen > before and which do not arise except when a Homage- Worthy, > perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. What are these > eight dhammas? They are Right View, Right ... p ... Right > Concentration. These, Bhikkhus, are the eight dhammas which are > completely pure, perfectly clean, unblemished and undefiled, > which had not arisen before and which do not arise except when a > Homage-Worthy, Perfectly Self-Enlightened Tathagata appears. Dear Robert, Thank you for this most apposite sutta, Amara 3360 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:25am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan > would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) Dear Kom, I of course meant to include you but my memory gave somehow!!! Anyway I had reserved a special quiz for you and your group, for your enjoyment: For the Jhana citta, what is the highest amount of kusala cetasika that could arise with them, and which are the ones that are different from those of the magga citta, and how many arise altogether then? Have fun, Amara 3361 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:09pm Subject: New chapters Dear all, 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' ch.s 13-15 up last night, with the help of Khun Kulvilai, in the intermediate section, Enjoy, Amara 3362 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 This post discusses the question, Are concepts dhammas? (Apologies in advance for the somewhat technical nature of this post) 1. Visuddhimagga Commentary According to Vis. Com., the term ‘dhamma’ is sometimes used in a sense that includes concepts, sometimes in a sense that does not. [Note: the literal meaning of ‘dhamma’ is apparently ‘bearer’. This is relevant to the passages from Vis. Com. quoted below.] For example, the expression ‘Dhammas that are concepts’ is found in the Dhammasangani. Vis. Com. explains that concepts can be considered as dhammas in the following sense: "Even a non-entity (a-bhaava) is called a dhamma, since it is borne and affirmed by knowledge." [Vis. VIII, n.68] On the other hand, in the expression ‘Dhammas means individual essences’, concepts are excluded, since individual essences (sabhaava) connote something that is possible in the ultimate sense. Vis. Com. explains: "These are called ‘dhammas (bearers)’ because they bear their own individual essences (sabhaava)." [Vis VIII, n.68] As we saw earlier in the passage from Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ‘sabhaava’ is what distinguishes an ultimate reality from a concept. (In A-S, ‘sabhaava’ was translated as ‘extrinsic nature’.) A concept, on the other hand, is abhaava (a non-entity). 2. ‘Dhammas’ as the objects which are experienced through mind-door The following terms - ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object) ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element) all refer to the same thing, namely the objects that can be experienced through the mind-door. As discussed in an earlier post, these objects do include concepts. Concepts are the object of the citta (moment of consciousness) which thinks. 3. ‘Dhammas’ as in ‘dhammanupassana’ of satipatthana ‘Dhammanupassana’ is the 4th of the 4 ‘foundations of mindfulness’. Here, ‘dhamma’ refers to mental objects again (anupassana = contemplation). Looking at the mental objects to be contemplated -- Dhammanupassana is explained in a number of ways, one of which is by way of the 5 aggregates of clinging, as objects of the mind. The 5 aggregates are one of the ways of classifying the ultimate realities (other than nibbana – ie, all cittas, cetasikas and rupas). The aggregates do not include concepts, so concepts do not fall within dhammanupassana. Looking at the nature and function of panna (understanding) of the level of satipatthana -- The Vis. points out that, while there are many kinds of panna, panna in this context means panna consisting in insight knowledge arising with kusala citta. [Vis. XIV, 2] It goes on to explain that panna of this level has the characteristic of "penetrating the individual essences (sabhaava) of states" and the function of "abolishing the darkness of delusion, which conceals the individual essences of states" [Vis. XIV, 7]. So satipatthana and vipassana are concerned only with states that have individual essences (sabhaava), and the development of panna which has the nature and function of penetrating the true characteristic of such states. Concepts cannot be object of satipatthana. To summarise: Concepts are dhammas in the sense that they are the object of cittas. But they can not be object of satipatthana since they are not sabhaava (‘having an individual essence/extrinsic nature), and the function of panna is to penetrate the individual essence of realities. 3363 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 4:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan > > More to the point, however, is that it is only if > each > > of these kinds of study, ie. the listening, > retaining, > > etc, is in turn correct that there can be any > > attainment of sati or panna. It is important to > get > > things right from the very beginning. > > Does this mean that there can't be any attainment of > sati or panna > until wrong view is eliminated? And that wrong view > is eliminated by > listening, retaining, etc.? > > I do hope you can answer my questions. I can only try! We all have past ‘accumulations’ of both kusala and akusala tendencies, and these are capable of conditioning the arising of the same tendencies in the future at the appropriate time. So for example moments of generosity or metta (kindness) may arise despite our considerable accumulated tendencies for attachment and aversion. At such moments the akusala tendencies remain latent (anusaya). Likewise, it is not necessary for wrong view to be eliminated in order for there to be moments of sati or panna. Wrong view is eliminated by the development of panna. (It is this development of panna that is the subject of all the discussion on this list!) One cannot develop panna in this life without having heard the true dhamma, no matter how strong the accumulated tendency. And having heard the dhamma, one needs to keep hearing it repeatedly, and to consider what one has heard and to apply it. Dan, I hope this answers your question. Jon 3364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan & Mike This is a follow-up to our earlier posts about mention in the suttas of monks sitting cross-legged and setting up mindfulness to the fore, with particular reference to the passage appearing in the Samannaphala Sutta. The question we were discussing was whether these passages support the proposition that a sitting practice is given by the Buddha as a means (or the means) of developing mindfulness. Just to remind ourselves of the context in which the passage appears in this particular sutta – "Endowed with this noble aggregate of virtue, this noble restraint over the sense faculties, this noble mindfulness and alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings mindfulness to the fore." Sarah has drawn my attention to the commentary to this sutta as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi in ‘The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship’ (BPS). It says there about the passage beginning 'Endowed with ...' (at p.139) – "What does the Buddha show by this? He shows the achievement of the requisites for living in the forest. For one who lacks these 4 requisites [moral discipline, restraint over the sense faculties, mindfulness and clear comprehension, and contentment] does not succeed in his forest life. He would fall under the same category as forest wanderers. ... But one who has achieved these four requisites succeeds in his forest life. Reviewing his own moral discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, and he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way of its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the plane of the noble ones." [end quote] The passage then goes on to talk about the abandoning of the hindrances to jhana. I think the meaning is clear. One cannot successfully lead the secluded forest life unless one has first developed mindfulness. The sitting posture is mentioned in the context of the abandoning of the hindrances, not the development of mindfulness. Thought you might be interested to see this. Jon 3365 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:05pm Subject: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Hello! Yesterday I sent this message and checking today I realized it hasn't arrived then I am resending, please forgive if has been delayed and after you will get double imput. Hi everybody! Well eventually I got warmed up and I decided to share about my formal meditation experiences. Still I ask for mercy: leave me at least a bite of brain to keep going and thanks for being so compassionate. Okay let me offer my brains in this silver plate. ;-) I read some interesting messages on this subject that I appreciate and feel attuned with but I am not referring to them as I would feel as well conditioned to a pattern, so to speak I am just very spontaneously sharing my sensations and perceptions that stem from experience. I hope to get along well with you in my approach. I am not a scholar or a theoric of Dhamma , I am searching for a warm heart of wisdom in my practice and I cannot dissociate wisdom from compassion and as I try to 'master' my mind and discipline my emotions I never resort to suppression in my practice or follow blindly rules. I am not very very keen on obedience or control. I am not on repressing feelings to avoid attachments. I am for creative means and spiritual independence; perhaps for some practitioners I don't look very much a 'buddhist' according with usual stereotypes but a bit weird. Well indeed I am not conventional in my approach. I am sorry to disappoint you Bruce ;-), you perhaps thought of me as a burmese meditation style follower after my experience in Burma and in Italy with Mahasi tradition that nevertheless I most value even if Upandita Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a 'follower' temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a master in particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than concentrating exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only deepening in one's research. How to start this recollection...my poor brains are on the verge of panic by now. :-))) Bruce asked me to relate about my meditation experiences, well I cannot refer to it without connecting with retreats I have done. I am very faithful on developing meditation skills in order to intensify awareness and as a wholesome tool in mental training even if I also realize that constant mindfulness in daily life is the most concrete opportunity we have got being householders to unfold our practice and experience true insight in our mental, emotional processes. Bare attention can be actuated everywhere and applied in any situation. But is also true that the formal meditation grants us this quality of mental sharpness to do it. Otherwise it's only mental proliferation and we are deceiving ourselves that's genuine insight into phenomena. I have learned Vipassana meditation in Sri Lanka after having practiced for some time Soto Zen but I was not focussed on Dhamma when doing zazen but purely on the meditation technique. Coming from a very ecletical spiritual background and many years practicing Sri Aurobindo Yoga and a kind of samatha meditation it was such a relief practicing that straightforward, naked technique, facing the wall unburdened by transcendental implications and refusing mystical visions as a sign of inner achievement. No more 'cosmic orgasms' but just pure, bare observation of reality as it is. For how much my legs were paining my 'soul' was rejoicing somehow. And I got the meaning of the posture alone to support a certain mental condition conducive to meditative states. And then I went to live in India for quite a long period and from there I landed in Sri Lanka and there is a very pituresque story of syncronicity here that I will spare you, don't worry. ;-) There I arrived in this meditation centre in a wonderful place uphill called Nilambe in the secluded greenery of tea plantations and I met a layman and a most wise and compassionate teacher Godwin Samaratne and he really pointed out the Path to me. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu dearest spiritual friend. It was my first real contact with Theravada tradition and there I have learned to practice Vipassana and the rest is self discovery all along the way. Never a tecnique could suits better an inquiring mind like I have. And on the other hand never could unfits more a passionate, pleasure seeker, sensual indulgent character like mine. ;-) Not by chance I was born in Brazil but by kamma... I went there for few days and ended staying more than one month and helped to build up a new kitchen for the centre and a new perspective of life to myself. Nilambe was the gift of Dhamma for me. What first has arised a lot of aversion and inner resistance it was what afterwards has most delighted me. Dealing with the posture, breathing awareness and pain as a meditation subject I had experienced before in zazen but maintaining Noble Silence for an extended period was amazing for me. I was startled by all ignored, removed, neglected thoughts and emotions arising, all mental contents put aside or conditioned by mental elaboration emerging and overwhelming me. Silence so prolonged was a revelation for me... Ok this is to be continued but for now I offered enough for a meal, tomorrow the second dishe. ;-) love and respect Cybele 3366 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:08pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > > I was looking to see if there was any verbal root(s) > in Sanskrit & > Pali that could be linked to the root med- of the > English word > 'meditate' and found some roots that appear to > match. These are: mid, > med, & medh -- all three share the meaning of > knowing, understanding > (medhaa). Medh is also seen in the proper name: > Sumedha. The English > 'meditate' comes from the Latin 'meditari' and there > is also a 'med' > root in Greek. For the 1st person sing. the Greek is > 'medomai' > (provide for, think on, be mindful of) and for the > Sanskrit & Pali > form (if it existed in actual usage) it would be > 'medaami' which is > remarkably close to the Greek. If you look up > 'meditate' in the OED > this 'med' might also be connected to the one in > 'medicine'. > > The Pali root of 'jhaayati' (he meditates) is 'jhe' > which has the > meaning of thinking (cintaa). In the Dhammasangani > (the first of the > seven Abhidhamma books) the definition of > 'pa~n~nindriya' is given by > listing its synonyms among which 'cintaa' & 'medhaa' > are included. > I agree that for all these reasons, 'meditates' is exactly the right translation acording to the meant meaning of the word. The problem, however, is that people today (especially Buddhists) have a very specific understanding of what this word means: i.e. sitting cross-legged in 'formal practice' etc which is not supported by the texts. Therefore to avoid misunderstanding, I question its usage, but then the same may be said for many translations such as patipatti-practice or citta-consciousness. As you've said, this is why it helps to check the Pali. Thanks for all this helpful info, Best regards, Sarah 3367 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Rupas and Stupas Dear Mark, Your posts are very unusual and quite intriguing. I'd be interested to know how you come to be so involved in this project on the Gold Coast and who the temple will be supported by and attended by. I had also meant to follow up on your earlier posts but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: --- Mark Rasmus wrote: > I have studied universal laws through the western > traditions for most > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of > the elements which > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > creation I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly explain. and the > underlying structure of penetrating into the > universal laws. This was > one of the first things I was taught when I entered > the path of light. Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and what is this structure? > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > looking at the same > thing through a different cultural perpective. What is this law? I am > very drawn to the > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers > the cultivator. > From what I have seen on my current level of > understanding, it is a > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that > I have looked at > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > into the systems. Again, would you elaborate. > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > last 13 years. > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > base energies? I need to know more about what these energies are and why you want to manifest them. In other words, what are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism? Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to understand better where you're coming from in terms of your interest and understanding. Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to follow along these threads. Best wishes for the temple design plans, Sarah 3368 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 8:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Dear Cybele, I hope you don't mind if I take your words rather literally and make a few comments and raise a few questions in between. --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu!!! > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key > point to develop some > wisdom and compassion in the Path. > I am often deceived but I must say that persisting > in this awareness > training I find my mind opposing less resistance to > it, the grasping is > there but somehow is not tight as before. It may be helpful to remember that awareness just arises for a brief moment and that there are so many different moments and experiences: grasping one moment, compassion another, awareness another.. > It will be a long way till I 'surrender' but is > heartening for me to realize > that I am a little bit less entangled and that > little bit, influences my > life a great deal; I'm glad to hear it. Of course it's not self that surrenders, but at a moment of compassion or generosity, for example, there is no grasping or entanglement just for that instant. Then there's grsping again and more entanglement with lobha (greed) and moha (ignorance). >sometimes I am amazed how my > powerful ego seems to melt > away, to subside to bare attention. > I am always 'fighting out' but somehow I am making > peace increasingly often > as my practice unfolds. It's good to be honest and know all these tendencies. Again, no 'I' to fight or make peace in reality. > My enthusiasm for Dhamma never fades away, it > becomes brighter more the > years pass by; a different quality of enthusiasm, > less overflowing but > constant like a presence, real, solid, strenghtening > and calm. > This strange quality of calmness is like an anchor > in the middle of the > inner storms of my passionate temperament. Again, there are different moments...Can we really say that when the possion takes over that there is any appreciation of the dhamma? In between these moments of passion, however, there certainly can be moments of calm as you describe, when there is some wise reflection or awareness at the level of sila, dana or bhavana (mental development). > All the hindrances are there but how to say, the > bondage is weakened, just a > little bit but makes me savour a taste of freedom > and it's liberating. Yes, this is very helpful and a good reminder for us all. At any wholesome moment (kusala) there is a taste of freedom from those tangles and a weakening of the bondage. But, there's no quick escape from those hindrances and it's better to acknowledge them than to mind them! Cybele, I can't hope to emulate your colouful posts and wit, so please excuse me for adding simple comments to yours. Love and respect to you too, Sarah 3369 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Cybele & Robert, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > It's also good to know that you are in such > excellent health conditions and > safe and sound, here in South East Asia they would > say that is because of > your accumulated merits; for me means that you have > enough strenght to > support all your dhamma friends along the Path. > Very good to know this, indeed! I rejoice with you. > ;-) Yes, it's always good to be reminded that sickness and death are inevitable...now there are conditions to be able to hear, consider, study and give each other reminders, but we don't know when this may change... As Dan reminded us, food and nutriment are very important and although panna and sati can continue to develop IF there is a sufficient foundation when we're very sick, it may not be possible to listen or read or consider much. Let's hope we all enjoy good health this year of the snake! Sarah 3370 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I had a discussion with a few people recently who > have doubts > about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and > even the > Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper > confidence is to > learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. Well said and agreed > Nonetheless it can be damaging to incipient > confidence to hear > people refuting these sources. This can be very true and I'm remembering all the earlier discussion on this theme...I'm sure it'll always be a recurring one. I put together this > series of > letters on the matter as some may find it edifying. Excellent. We read and appreciated the work over brunch on the Peak today. > The only > name I left on was Cybeles – and she was someone who > found it > useful to read. Cybele, you said, > > > > I am still merely crawling in the study of > Abhidhamma we all are.... and this > is > just to > > share an impression really worthing 2 cents but > what interests > me > most is > > this consistent aspect of dinamic meditation that > is sealed in > the > very > > structure of the text, the idea of this > continuative, life > lasting > state of > > meditative mind that unfolds when you get skilled > in observing > nama > rupa is > > very supportive as I cannot spend my existence > sitting in > formal > meditation > > denying life. > > I am don't have a vocation for being a nihilist. very well put, Cybele and I share your reflections and feelings here.....Perhaps we can call ourselves the 'dynamic meditators'! As Robert neatly summarises at the end, > Actually it is simply the way things really are at > this very > moment. > No self, only namas and rupas. Vipassana has got new > connotations > since it became a fad. But the real one is nothing > other than an > uncovering of reality as described perfectly in the > Abhidhamma. Robert, many thanks for all your work and for sharing the letters with us. maybe others will have comments. Kom is compiling a list of topics with the dsg numbers of relevant posts. I'm sure this can be included under 'Was the Abhidhamma taught by the Buddha' or like. Anumodona, Sarah 3371 From: Sarah Procter Abbott <> Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 9:24pm Subject: Fwd: Re: dsg list -stupas --- Joe Cummings wrote: > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:47:29 -0700 > To: Sarah Procter Abbott <> > From: Joe Cummings > Subject: Re: dsg list -stupas > > Hi Sarah > > I haven't been following the dsg list very closely > in recent months, > unfortunately, having been occupied with other > things. > > As for Mark's question, it all depends on whether > you plan to have monks > there. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are no > guidelines. If it's to > be a monastery, or it will house monks, then there > are various texts that > deal with the best ways to organise living spaces, > etc. The classic > Theravada scheme follows the panchavasa or 'five > dwelling' tradition that > started at Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda in southern > India, was perfected in > Sri Lanka, and is now most prominent in Thailand, > Laos and Cambodia. > > It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather > alignments of viharas with > stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary > markers, and the like. > > best, Joe > > At 23:47 07/02/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Dear Pinna, > > > >I'm not sure how actively you're following the list > at > >present, so I thought I'd f/w this message to you > >separately that you may have advice on. Amara is > the > >only one who tried a response. > > > >Joe, this may also be in your line of interest, I'm > >not sure! > > > >Best wishes, > >Sarah > > > >--- "Mark Rasmus" > ><> wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > Is there a special design that temples must > follow > >or will any shape > > > building do. I am applying to local government > to > >build a Buddhist > > > temple and retreat on the Gold Coast, Australia > and > >would like some > > > advice on dimensions as I am putting the > proposal in > >next week. > > > Is there any buddhist feng shui principles > involved? > > > Any help would be appreciated. > > > Mark > > > >Dear Mark, > > > >I am not aware there is one. From one of the ruins > in > >India which was > >said to be a temple built by the doctor Jivaka, an > >expert pointed out > >to me that in those days such buildings were 'boat > >shaped', or oblong > >from the stone base we saw in the ground. Thai > >temples on the > >other hand have a very specific pattern through the > >centuries, very > >unlike the Indian ruins. In fact the person who > told > >me about the > >Indian original is also a member of this list, a > >professor in these > >types of architecture, who writes us from time to > >time. Perhaps she > >might see your message and be able to clarify some > >things for you, > >although she is generally very busy, > > > >Amara > > 3372 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Khun Amara, Of course, this can all be deciphered from "Summary of Paramattha Dhamma", http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html, or porichet on Cetasikas. For the first jhana, which has the highest number of cetasikas co- arising, sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 annasamana-cetasika: 13 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 Virati DOES NOT arise with Jhana citta Appamanna-cetasika(Karuna, Mudita): can be none or 1. Panna-cetasika So the count can be 7+13+19+0+1 or 7+13+19+1+1 For non-jhana Lokuttara: sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 annasamana-cetasika: 13 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 Virati: ALL 3, arising to eradicate the appropriate anusaya-kilesa. Appamanna-cetasika DOES NOT arise with Lokuttara cetasikas. Panna-cetasika So the count must be 7+13+19+3+1. The differences are the virati, the Appamanna-cetasika, and the level of panna, of course. kom --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > > My dear three muskete- I mean,- gentlemen, (actually I think Gayan > > would make a terrific Dargayan!!!) > > > Dear Kom, > > I of course meant to include you but my memory gave somehow!!! Anyway > I had reserved a special quiz for you and your group, for your > enjoyment: > > For the Jhana citta, what is the highest amount of kusala cetasika > that could arise with them, and which are the ones that are different > from those of the magga citta, and how many arise altogether then? > > Have fun, > > Amara 3373 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Of course, this can all be deciphered from "Summary of Paramattha > Dhamma", http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html, or porichet on > Cetasikas. > > For the first jhana, which has the highest number of cetasikas co- > arising, > > sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 > annasamana-cetasika: 13 > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 > Virati DOES NOT arise with Jhana citta > Appamanna-cetasika(Karuna, Mudita): can be none or 1. > Panna-cetasika > > So the count can be 7+13+19+0+1 or 7+13+19+1+1 > > > For non-jhana Lokuttara: > > sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 > annasamana-cetasika: 13 > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika: 19 > Virati: ALL 3, arising to eradicate the appropriate anusaya-kilesa. > Appamanna-cetasika DOES NOT arise with Lokuttara cetasikas. > Panna-cetasika > > So the count must be 7+13+19+3+1. > > The differences are the virati, the Appamanna-cetasika, and the level > of panna, of course. Dear Khun Kom, Almost perfect, but I would like to follow the current political nit picking and demand a recount please! I think you forgot that the annasamana-cetasika: 13 already include the sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 (+the 6 pakinnaka cetasika = 13) so in fact your final count has to be a little smaller for both kinds of citta, I think. The reasoning is quite flawless and exact, thank you for the reminders, Amara 3374 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 11, 2001 11:57pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a 'follower' > temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a master in > particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than concentrating > exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only > deepening in one's research. Dear Cybele, First I must say that it has been worth the wait to read your great letter! But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Which is why we take such pains to verify everything with the Tipitaka, at least many of us do. No teacher whose words do not concur with the texts or the commentaries are really worth more than curiosity to me, and then they are promptly forgotten. Those who do not add their own interpretations are the only ones I consider serious, and deserving of conscientious study. The teacher must not blot out the dhamma, and the dhamma can be proven now, as the Buddha stressed countless times, is the eye permanent? is seeing or visible object permanent? should each of the individual realities be taken for the self or belonging to the self, etc., and that we should be aware of the present moment and whatever arises, while we are sitting (in front of the computer now) or moving (our hands and fingers) or whatever we are doing. In short he taught us to study realities that are always changing, arising and falling away, to know them as not the self. For myself I have unlimitted confidence in the Buddha, his wisdom and in his teachings, and follow them as best I can, and anumodana with all who do the same, Amara 3375 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 0:26am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone > here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Dear all, I would like to amend that to 'But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but to study with us the Buddha's teachings.' of course! No one can expect anyone else to do anything, even the Buddha himself could not teach everyone, so what chance does the Tipitaka have, 2500 yaers after! I know people who could recite the whole collection but could not tell what their present citta was... The dhamma is really an intricate matter and not for everyone, so to find friends sharing the interest is always a pleasure. Amara 3376 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Jon, A really excellent and definitive post. What do you think of adding it to the list files, for quick reference for newcomers? mike p.s. I've pretty much despaired of ever being able to (consciously, at least) distinguish between concepts and anything else arising at the mind door--but it's good to know that there are solid grounds for accepting this distinction. 3377 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 1:35am Subject: Samma-Vayama Dear Jon, Well said--a question: --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > And having heard the dhamma, > one needs to keep hearing it repeatedly, and to > consider what one has heard and to apply it. I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider' or to 'apply' than we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness to arise before us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' must arise because of previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). I wonder if this has any bearing on samma-vayama--in other words, if we can't choose to consider or apply or even to listen to the dhamma, what is the nature of right effort? Thanks in advance, p.s. Just before posting this, I found this answer to my question on the dsg web-site, from NVG: "...Samma-vayama or right effort is the cetasika which is viriya or energy. The 'Visuddhimagga' (XIV, 137) states about viriya: Energy (viriya) is the state of one who is vigorous (vira). Its characteristic is marshalling (driving). Its function is to consolidate nascent states. It is manifested as non-collapse. Because of the words 'Bestirred, he strives wisely' its proximate cause is a sense of urgency; or its proximate cause is grounds for the initiation of energy. When rightly initiated, it should be regarded as the root of all attainments. ... Samma-vayama of the eightfold Path arises together with samma-ditthi (right understanding) and samma-sati (right mindfulness). When there is right mindfulness of nama and rupa, there is at that moment samma- vayama as well. In order to develop the wisdom which sees things as they are we have to continue to be mindful. Samma-vayama encourages one to continue to be mindful of all nama and rupa which appear..." http://www.dhammastudy.com/mental7.html Would it be correct to state, categorically, that samma-vayama of the eightfold path is always, exclusively that viriya-cetasika which arises with samma-sati? mike 3378 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 2:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon, Very interesting and pertinent, thanks. Also interesting is the arousing of rapture by contemplation of perfect sila. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reviewing his own > moral > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, > and > he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way > of > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the > plane of the noble ones." [end quote] It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is arising dependent on perfect conduct, then pańńaa is arising dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti, leading to awakening. Sila, samadhi and pańńaa in one neat little package... > The passage then goes on to talk about the > abandoning > of the hindrances to jhana. > > I think the meaning is clear. One cannot > successfully > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first > developed mindfulness. I'm sure you're right about this. 'Successfully leading the secluded forest life' means attaining nibbana. It isn't clear to me that having established mindfulness was a prerequisite to entering the forest life, though--I take this as an example of right mindfulness of the eightfold path and right concentration of the eightfold path being developed IN the forest life based on right conduct of the eightfold path--together with all the other path factors, of course. Do you think this is a mistake? > The sitting posture is > mentioned in the context of the abandoning of the > hindrances, not the development of mindfulness. True, and I do appreciate the distinction. However, they all seem well integrated and even interdependent here--or am I mistaken? > Thought you might be interested to see this. Very interested, thanks, Jon... mike 3379 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 8:46am Subject: Re: Temple design Hello Mark Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add a couple of things to what Pinna said. Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, and the like. On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for example. If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As the book blurb describes: "This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First English translation of 1920) And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be adhered to. Good luck. Joe --- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > Hello Pinna, > Thank you for your reply. > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > well or can it be on the south side. > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > preferable over a rectanglar building. > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > Mark > > --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" > wrote: > > Dear Mark, > > It is difficult to answer your question really, as it all > depends on > > the context. In the Buddhist canon, there is really nothing in the > way of > > feng shui, but because it has been a custom so long in specific > cultures, > > there is a beleif that certain orientations are important, e.g., a > hall with > > a Buddha image should face east (unless the image is a relclining > image > > referring to parinibbana then the head is toward the north and the > face > > toward the west). But all of these things come from the culture and > there > > are also many cases when these rules are 'broken' for a variety of > reasons. > > There are a number of what I call 'conceptual models' for different > types of > > Buddhist structures, related to function and which also have > symbolic > > content. For example, there is often a separation of spaces (or a > kind of > > zoning of the site or building) for the Sangha, from the spaces > which are > > for public 'devotion' or ritual use (eg. stupas and shrines). The > Buddhist > > canon itself does not address the form of such buildings as stupas > and > > shrines, but does contain references to residential forms. But when > I > > studied these carefully, I always came to the same conclusion - they > were > > being mentioned to say anything which was useful and would not cause > the > > members of the Sangha undue hardship to maintain and would not by > their use > > cause friction within the Sangha or cause the public to look down on > the > > Sangha, etc. could be used. > > I also found that although a few building forms were named in > the > > Vinaya Pitaka, these could be actually seen as a 'universal' list > meaning > > any built form was suitable as a monastic residence. Nonetheless, > many > > formal traditions have developed over time. Many of them related to > shape - > > round or square or multiples of 4 as it reflects the establishment > of the > > Dhamma in the world, and its spreading throughout the world of form > (a > > concept deriving from the broader Indian philosophical tradition) > and these > > are usually symbolic ritual spaces. Others develop around notions > such as > > respecting the life of the monks as one of minimum needs etc, and on > the > > other end, providing a place which gives due honour to the reminders > of the > > Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, which may be a very symbolic ritual space > or one > > which only indirectly encourages (and allows) appropriate actions of > respect > > (e.g., circumambulation of a stupa). In terms of reminders, there > is a long > > tradition in Buddhist communities to use forms (architectural forms > or > > ornamental elements or images with specific postures) which remind > people of > > important events in the life of the Buddha - the decision to take > birth in > > the human plane, birth, renouncing the homelife, attainment of > > enlightenment, preaching of the first sermon ('turning the wheel of > the > > law'), preaching of the abhidhamma, converting the heretics which > was marked > > by a demonstration of powers (miracles), parinibbana. These are > narrative > > events, but all connect to important aspects of the teachings, and > there are > > other narratives to do that as well, e.g., the Jatakas. > > I really don't know if this is going to be very helpful in > getting a > > specific proposal ready in a week, because it does depend on the > cultural > > context, the site, the things that will be meaningful to the users, > what is > > the purpose of the 'retreat' (Dhamma discussion?) and what sort of > symbolic > > reminders will perhaps condition reflection on the Buddha, Dhamma > and Sangha > > (and the development of right understanding?). > > Are these the dimension you had in mind? > > Wishing you well in your endeavour, > > Pinna > > 3380 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:17am Subject: Re: Temple design Hi Joe, Thanyou for your input, I will check if the state library has this book, it sounds very helpful. kindest regards......Mark --- wrote: > Hello Mark > > Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add > a couple of things to what Pinna said. > > Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at > the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no > guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then > there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to > organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really > exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the > panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and > Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is > now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. > > It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas > with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, > and the like. > > On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, > and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen > Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for > example. > > If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you > might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: > An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As > the book blurb describes: > > "This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal > three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, > published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- > cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 > pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and > refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and > worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King > Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. > As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were > realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical > aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked > out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. > The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- > cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a > Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to > project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often > impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, > many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok > temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a > masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a > superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First > English translation of 1920) > > And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do > face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be > adhered to. > > Good luck. > > Joe > 3381 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 2:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Mike > A really excellent and definitive post. I'm sure it's not either of these, but I'm glad anyway that you found it useful > p.s. I've pretty much despaired of ever being able > to > (consciously, at least) distinguish between concepts > and anything else arising at the mind door--but it's > good to know that there are solid grounds for > accepting this distinction. This might be attempting the impossible - for me it certainly would be. The value in understanding the distinction, at an intellectual level first, between concepts and realities is to appreciate, also at an intellectual level for now, that everything that appears to us through all the doorways does so as concepts. In other words, the realities that panna is to understand are something other than what appears to us now. The more we discuss about and consider the different realities and their characteristics, including the awareness that can be aware of those realities, the more we are developing the conditions for those realities to appear to us as they really are. But it all takes time and lots of patience. Jon 3382 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 4:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design Dear Joe If you are the Joe Cummings I suppose you are and most probably is like this I want to pay homage bowing to you three times for the wonderful insights I got from your writings about Thailand and Burma on Lonely Planet that helped me a great deal exploring these cultures and supported me in the effort of integrating in such different worlds. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu dear friend! On the other side if you are not that Joe Cummings, never mind I bow to you all the same as a Dhamma brother. :-)))) Thanks Joe Love and respect Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:46:21 -0000 > >Hello Mark > >Pardon my jumping into the middle of this, but I thought I might add >a couple of things to what Pinna said. > >Much depends on whether you plan to have monks using or staying at >the facility. If it's strictly a lay facility, there are really no >guidelines. If it's to be a monastery, or it will house monks, then >there are various local texts that deal with the best ways to >organise space. The classic Theravada scheme (which doesn't really >exist as a codified norm -- I'm speaking historically) follows the >panchavasa or 'five dwelling' tradition that started at Amaravati and >Nagarjunakonda in southern India, was perfected in Sri Lanka, and is >now most prominent in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. > >It doesn't really involve feng shui, but rather alignments of viharas >with stupas, the placement of sema or ordination boundary markers, >and the like. > >On the other hand, there are plenty of exceptions to local custom, >and when monasteries travel abroad, adaptations are made. I have seen >Thai monasteries contained in suburban American tract homes, for >example. > >If you're looking for inspiration in Thai temple architecture, you >might want to check out Karl Dohring's _Buddhist Temples of Thailand: >An Architectonic Introduction_, which is available via amazon.com. As >the book blurb describes: > >"This is the first English translation of Karl Dohring's seminal >three-volume photographic study Buddhistische Tempelanlagen in Siam, >published in German in 1920. This in-depth architectonic and socio- >cultural analysis of temple building complexes is accompanied by 180 >pages of technically perfect photographs and 116 floor plans and >refined line drawings. Karl Dohring, an architect who lived and >worked in Siam during the reigns of King Chulalongkorn and King >Vajiravudh, presented part of this work toward his doctoral degree. >As a practicing architect of larger constructions, many of which were >realized in Siam, Dohring was deeply interested in the technical >aspects of Thai temples and in the use of decorative elements worked >out to perfection to create both harmony and eye-catching contrasts. >The book presents an architectonic analysis, discusses the historico- >cultural and religious meanings of the various edifices composing a >Thai temple complex, and details the specific decorations used to >project the atmosphere of religious piety and rest so often >impressively present in these places of worship. Sample floor plans, >many of which have been long lost and photographs of many Bangkok >temples as well as some famous upcountry complexes make this book a >masterfully conceived guide for the layman who has more than a >superficial interest in this fascinating topic. (Bangkok 2000; First >English translation of 1920) > >And yes, buildings containing principal Buddha images generally do >face east, though again it's really nothing that absolutely must be >adhered to. > >Good luck. > >Joe > >--- "Mark Rasmus" <> wrote: > > Hello Pinna, > > Thank you for your reply. > > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > > well or can it be on the south side. > > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > > preferable over a rectanglar building. > > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 >meter > > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > > Mark > > 3383 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 4:43pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Jonathan, > -----Original Message----- > The following terms - > ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object) > ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and > ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element) > all refer to the same thing, namely the objects that > can be experienced through the mind-door. As > discussed in an earlier post, these objects do include > concepts. Concepts are the object of the citta > (moment of consciousness) which thinks. Although I have not seen the commentaries, I remember having heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that dhammaaramana can be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana and dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a reference of the text? kom 3384 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Amara I wrote: > > Sayadaw is not exactly 'my hero' but I am not very much of a >'follower' > > temperament, much more a kind of seeker and I don't stick to a >master in > > particular. I prefer being open to various possibilities than >concentrating > > exclusively in only one what I perceive as restrictive and not only > > deepening in one's research. > Amara replied: >Dear Cybele, > >First I must say that it has been worth the wait to read your great >letter! I am grateful for your appreciation, I can speak confortably about Dhamma only relating to my own experiences. Otherwise I sound to myself too rhetorical and doesn't convince me. Knowledge is not artificial but arises from inner demand, experience and fruition of this experience. Practicing allows me the possibility to mature this experience and this experience supports me. >But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that anyone >here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. Which is >why we take such pains to verify everything with the Tipitaka, at >least many of us do. No teacher whose words do not concur with the >texts or the commentaries are really worth more than curiosity to me, >and then they are promptly forgotten. Those who do not add their own >interpretations are the only ones I consider serious, and deserving of >conscientious study. The teacher must not blot out the dhamma, and >the dhamma can be proven now, as the Buddha stressed countless times, >is the eye permanent? is seeing or visible object permanent? should >each of the individual realities be taken for the self or belonging to >the self, etc., and that we should be aware of the present moment and >whatever arises, while we are sitting (in front of the computer now) >or moving (our hands and fingers) or whatever we are doing. In short >he taught us to study realities that are always changing, arising and >falling away, to know them as not the self. Well Amara I think that we are compelled to search and find teachers and teachings according with our nature and actual inner conditions, mindfulness and evolution to welcome them or to reject them or just feel indifferent. If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the knowledge that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be you cannot be forceful. I believe wisdom is an unfolding process. Dhamma is a gift to accept not a convention to respect. I don't want to exchange one prison for another only because the cell looks a bit wider and appealing. You cannot push or drag yourself, expanding or tightening to fits your expectations or your teacher expectations or even Dhamma expectations. This Buddha's nature of us should be a natural unfolding and we should be much concerned in unburdening ourselves than adding much more load while walking on the Path. I listen very much to my heart; my mind quite often deceives me but strange as is it may sounds my heart is much more reliable. I just remind myself to keep aware and observe my steps in this lifelong 'walking meditation' on the path. > >For myself I have unlimitted confidence in the Buddha, his wisdom and >in his teachings, and follow them as best I can, and anumodana with >all who do the same, > >Amara I have confidence in the Buddha as well and accept his teachings and his wisdom as best as my spiritual maturity and past accumulations grants me to do. And I let go of expectations about how I should suits the Buddha or the Buddha suits me; I just observe what I can be mindful of and I keep walking; I am not very anxious to reach destination, I just would like to do this journey as much mindful as I can manage to be. And in the meanwhile I enjoy myself as well. And I don't feel guilt. Love and respect Cybele 3385 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 5:39pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Kom > Although I have not seen the commentaries, I > remember having > heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that > dhammaaramana can > be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana > and > dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a > reference of the text? I'll try to find the source I got this from. I think you are suggesting that dhammayatana and dhamma-dhatu do not include pannatti? JOn 3386 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:03pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > Well Amara I think that we are compelled to search and find teachers and > teachings according with our nature and actual inner conditions, mindfulness > and evolution to welcome them or to reject them or just feel indifferent. Dear Cybele, Of course each person has different accumulations and approaches to the dhamma, the Tipitaka is full of the strangest situations where this happens. > If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the knowledge > that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be you cannot > be forceful. Of course everyone starts out with the self studying the dhamma, understanding or misunderstanding the teachings, experiencing the dhamma. But in reality there is no us to be anything, simply the citta that is conditioned to arise with right understanding or not, to study realities or not, to grow strong or not. If one understands that we can't control even the seeing now, we don't really have a choice to sit here and read, and it is already past, the moment you realize that. The seeing at that moment has fallen away, it is the new instant of citta that is seeing ever changing sights or visible objects. I believe wisdom is an unfolding process. Dhamma is a gift to > accept not a convention to respect. I think that the dhamma is supremely liberating, when there is no self or the world around us, what we take as such vitally compelling matters completely disintegrates- is there anything that really matters that does not begin with 'my'? My computer, no viruses please, the neighbor's crashes are not as devastating as my two day e-mail withdrawal trauma! my mother, my friends, my bird, my country, my earth they are poluting, my space they are sending all sorts of junk out to litter. But to realize there are only nama and rupa and that everything happens according to conditions, we only do the best we can which could only be good for us as well as for others, and that is that! Any dhamma that is just convention would not come from the tipitaka, which teaches about kammasakata- that each person has their own kamma (and accumulations) therefore no two people are the same. All the Buddha did was to point out the way and all the rest of the work is up to the person. Everyone is still full of kilesa, otherwise we would not be born, so guilt which is so precious in some religions is absolutely unwise in Buddhism, it accumulates dosa unnecessarily, the Buddha teaches to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, and accumulate kusala as much as we can since all dhamma of the good side flow together, leads to each other. Sati and panna for example never arises with akusala citta while ekaggata does. But in the end it is up to the individual's nature or accumulations how they approach the dhamma, it must be according to what is best for the individual and never forced, understanding should be the only natural change until the accumulations are changed by panna itself and not the self wishing to be this way or that. Not long ago we were discussing how the dhamma changed our attachment to music somewhat, and so naturally we did not feel it until it had already happened. But come to think of it, when extreme somanassa has been experienced, don't we tire of it and go searching for something else we just are dying to have? And when we get it and there is such joy, we immediately tire of it and feel that we need something else again, ad infinitum. Whatever we possess is really not that necessary after all. In reality there is nothing we can really possess, and in the end the dhamma is the only treasure we can take with us from lifetime to lifetime, and when fully developed, can liberate us from life itself. Amara > I don't want to exchange one prison for another only because the cell looks > a bit wider and appealing. > You cannot push or drag yourself, expanding or tightening to fits your > expectations or your teacher expectations or even Dhamma expectations. > This Buddha's nature of us should be a natural unfolding and we should be > much concerned in unburdening ourselves than adding much more load while > walking on the Path. > I listen very much to my heart; my mind quite often deceives me but strange > as is it may sounds my heart is much more reliable. > I just remind myself to keep aware and observe my steps in this lifelong > 'walking meditation' on the path. > > I have confidence in the Buddha as well and accept his teachings and his > wisdom as best as my spiritual maturity and past accumulations grants me to > do. > And I let go of expectations about how I should suits the Buddha or the > Buddha suits me; I just observe what I can be mindful of and I keep walking; > I am not very anxious to reach destination, I just would like to do this > journey as much mindful as I can manage to be. > And in the meanwhile I enjoy myself as well. And I don't feel guilt. 3387 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:37pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear everybody As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there are new subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the request of constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a Pali-English dictionary to decodify. Personally I am not well learned in Pali: I spent most of my time sitting cross-legged in the last years rather than studying suttas. But I am interested and getting started with Abhidhamma. Please all this pali terms makes you lose motivation, induces you to feel inadequate to have joined a list with such erudition in the sharings, deconcentrates from the substance of the message. I am sure that there are others with the same discomfort not voiced out; I am straightforward and prefer being admitting my ignorance. A message like this below really doesn't encourage me to understand Dhamma. You have a hard time checking previous messages, text books, dictionary. I would most appreciate if you could always add the translation for the common mortals as me. Thank you for your understanding Love and respect Cybele >From: Jonothan Abbott >Reply->>Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:39:54 +0800 (CST) > >Kom > > > Although I have not seen the commentaries, I > > remember having > > heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that > > dhammaaramana can > > be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana > > and > > dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a > > reference of the text? > >I'll try to find the source I got this from. > >I think you are suggesting that dhammayatana and >dhamma-dhatu do not include pannatti? > >JOn 3388 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 6:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Amara Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! Also I met such learned people along the path, erudits in the texts and absolutely ignorants of their own minds and hearts. Cybele > > But one thing is that you don't have to be afraid that >anyone > > here wants you to follow anyone but the Buddha's teachings. > >Dear all, > >I would like to amend that to 'But one thing is that you don't have to >be afraid that anyone here wants you to follow anyone but to study >with us the Buddha's teachings.' of course! > >No one can expect anyone else to do anything, even the Buddha himself >could not teach everyone, so what chance does the Tipitaka have, 2500 >yaers after! I know people who could recite the whole collection but >could not tell what their present citta was... The dhamma is really >an intricate matter and not for everyone, so to find friends sharing >the interest is always a pleasure. > >Amara 3389 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 > As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there are new > subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the request of > constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. > It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a Pali-English > dictionary to decodify. Dear Cybele, You certainly have a point, will try to keep this in mind in the future, Pali literates please bear with us (and perhaps keep an eye out for inaccuracy in the translation to be corrected please). Please yell whenever it happens again, what is the good of sharing if others don't understand what you are saying! Amara 3390 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:13pm Subject: sutta search I'm trying to find a sutra Anguttara Nikaya III 211 I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by lay people does anyone know if it can be located online. I have searched Access to insight but to no avail. any help would be appreciated. antony 3391 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear robert, Thanks for this. 3392 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:44pm Subject: Re: Rupas and Stupas Hi Sarah, Sorry I didnt answer you earlier, I have been pretty busy and missed your post. I will try and answer some of your questions. --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mark, > > Your posts are very unusual and quite intriguing. > Thank you, I will take that as a compliment. > I'd be interested to know how you come to be so > involved in this project on the Gold Coast and who the > temple will be supported by and attended by. > I teach a martial arts system that is of chinese/buddhist origin, Hence my interest in Buddhism. I am building a retreat to teach this martial art as well as setting up a temple dedicated to buddhist practices. > I had also meant to follow up on your earlier posts > but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: > > --- Mark Rasmus <> wrote: > > > I have studied universal laws through the western > > traditions for most > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge of > > the elements which > > as everyone would know are the building blocks of > > creation > > I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly > explain. > The western hermetic tradition was named after an egyptian priest called hermes trismegistos. It basically offers an initiation in understanding the inner process of nature, often refered to as universal laws. Among most metaphysical systems are rituals for manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and earth. These are base energies that make up the enviroment we live. Check the abhidhamma, third book, discourse on elements. > and the > > underlying structure of penetrating into the > > universal laws. This was > > one of the first things I was taught when I entered > > the path of light. > > Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and what is > this structure? > The path of light is a common term in metaphysical circles for people cultivating the positive virtues and walking the postive metaphysical path. The structure of universal laws is quite deep, but I will give a brief outline of the basics. Amongst a wide range of meditation exercises, students are taught the law of vibration, that everything within creation is energy vibrating. The law of polarity, that all energy has its polar opposite. The laws of rythm, how energy fluctuates and and how the cycles of rythm control our enviroment our minds and our bodies. The law of manifestation, how matter comes into existence through the realms and the laws that control this process. The list goes on and on. each meditation exercise in the method has an inner teaching that brings about inner understanding of these laws. So these laws are not just intellectual property of the Initiate, but are experienced through the teachings. > > Since there is only one true universal law, we are > > looking at the same > > thing through a different cultural perpective. > > What is this law? > Brief description above, the teachings of buddha describe many of the laws of nature that I have described above plus many more in a different cultural gift rap. > I am > > very drawn to the > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it offers > > the cultivator. > > From what I have seen on my current level of > > understanding, it is a > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions that > > I have looked at > > have lost there purity due to cultural saturation > > into the systems. > > Again, would you elaborate. > The buddhist method offers a simple appraoch to the lay person through the four noble truths and the eightfold path. This is ideal as a guideline for living for martial arts students. The buddhist approach places great emphasis on purity of thought,emotions and actions which is good for people in the early stages of spiritual growth. But I am starting to get the feeling that the monks hourded all the good stuff in their secret doctrines that have been written by the high lamas over the centuries. I think Buddha only introduced the mind stram of tuning into the natural processes of over coming incarnation and most of the interesting stuff was generated by later generations that followed the mindstream he set up. Applying cultural aspects to any philosphy of universal laws of nature is a quick way to polute it, but it cant be helped. It is necessary to be accepted into the culture of various countries. > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for the > > last 13 years. > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting these > > base energies? > > I need to know more about what these energies are and > why you want to manifest them. In other words, what > are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism? > Goals and interests listed above. These energies are talked about in the abhidharmma, discourse on elements. > Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to > understand better where you're coming from in terms of > your interest and understanding. > Many hermetic masters retire into buddhism due to hermetics having a universal perspective that all religions are pathways to understanding greater forces and principles of nature. Many hermetic practitioners incarnate into buddhism due to the purity of spirit that buddhism creates. > Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to follow > along these threads. > Be happy to discuss it. > Best wishes for the temple design plans, > > Sarah > Thank you, Talk soon Mark 3393 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Dear Amara Thank you very much. Since the beginning checking the messages I felt this urge but as just arrived did not want to look too demanding. Thank you for your support and understanding. I really want to share and not remain feeling isolated because I cannot get the meaning with all this Pali erudition. Love and respect Cybele > > As a newcomer to the list and knowing that in the last period there >are new > > subscriptions, I would ask you if you could kindly consider the >request of > > constant translation of the pali terminology in your messages. > > It's disheartening reading a message that you have to consult a >Pali-English > > dictionary to decodify. > > >Dear Cybele, > >You certainly have a point, will try to keep this in mind in the >future, Pali literates please bear with us (and perhaps keep an eye >out for inaccuracy in the translation to be corrected please). > >Please yell whenever it happens again, what is the good of sharing if >others don't understand what you are saying! > >Amara 3394 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear gayan, I write for people like you. Robert --- wrote: >Dear robert, >Thanks for this. 3395 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa dear jim, sanskrit 'medha' -> this can be seen in vedic rituals also [ done by kings, to extend their domain perimeters] ashvamedha yaaga(horse+medha) , purushamedha yaaga.(man+medha) the Pali 'Bhaavanaa' is translated to english as meditation.. the Pali 'jhaana'/'kjhaana' as musing.. are there any links to 'bhaavanaa' from english or latin? Thanks 3396 From: Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate dear cybele, Thanks for the piece of your brain, it tasted so good. yum,yum lobha,lobha :o) regds. 3397 From: <> Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: Textual evidence for the ancient age of the commentary sources Dear Robert, Thank you, Robert, for this post. With deep appreciation, Alex Tran --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear group, > I had a discussion with a few people recently who have doubts > about the veracity of the ancient commentaries and even the > Abhidhamma. The only way to develop proper confidence is to > learn to see paramattha dhammas as they are. 3398 From: Indorf,Pinna Lee Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:41pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design Dear Mark, Yes the hall can be rectangular. And there are no rules that people must enter through a door on the east. As Joe has mentioned the Thai tradition, I could add that in many cases in Thai temples there are two doors to the sides of the front of the image hall and people enter near the corners. At the centre is a ceremonial door, often higher (steps up and down again) and kept closed most of the time. It was also a custom in northern temples to have a side door or doors as well. Your comment about the grandness, seems to indicate a certain notion that grandness of entrance is important. Is it important to involve the car with this? To have the walk through the garden sounds to me rather nice. The building could be seen, or part of it could be seen (roof elements?) from a distance as one approaches, then after a walk through some landscape, the building could then be approached through a forecourt. There are no hard and fast rules, especially if it is primarily for lay people, just lots of cultural customs. best of luck, Pinna > ---------- > From: Mark Rasmus > Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:05 PM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Temple design > > Hello Pinna, > Thank you for your reply. > The buddha facing east is very helpful. Is the entry facing east as > well or can it be on the south side. > You mention some having preference to a sqare building, is this > preferable over a rectanglar building. > The road to the meditation hall comes from the south, making it a > little awkward with a east entry, it can be done, but much of the > grandness of the opening would be lost as people move up the 50 meter > garden walk up the hill to the temple from the south. > Thankyou again for your helpful advice. > Mark > 3399 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 9:51pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Anthony, I also haven't been able to find this either in V III or in Section III of the PTS AN. Do you know the title of this, or any other details? Thanks... mike --- wrote: > I'm trying to find a sutra > > Anguttara Nikaya III 211 > > I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by > lay people > > does anyone know if it can be located online. I have > searched Access > to insight but to no avail. > > any help would be appreciated. > > antony > 3400 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 12, 2001 10:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike > I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider' > or to 'apply' than > we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness to > arise before > us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' must > arise because of > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). Yes, precisely. Does this make sense? I > wonder if this has > any bearing on samma-vayama--in other words, if we > can't choose to > consider or apply or even to listen to the dhamma, > what is the nature > of right effort? As you will have seen from the passage from NVG’s ‘Cetasikas’ quoted later in your message, the nature and function of viriya (energy) is to be understood in the context of a moment of citta (consciousness), rather than the conventional concept of energy for doing something. Likewise, references in the suttas to the development of viriya must be read in this context. Viriya of the kind that supports satipatthana is developed when there are moments of sati (awareness) of a reality at a lesser level. The precise function of some cetasikas (mental factors) change according to the nature and level of the citta with which they arise. Viriya is a good example of such a cetasika. Its general function is described as marshalling or coordinating the citta and other cetasikas. However, when it arises with citta of the level of satipatthana it also has the function or effect which is described as the 4 padhaana (perseverances), namely- the avoidance of akusala (unwholesome) states as yet unarisen; the overcoming of akusala states already arisen; the development of kusala (wholesome) states as yet unarisen; and the maintaining of kusala states already arisen. So viriya of the level of satipatthana (but not viriya of lesser levels) has the function of beginning to establish more kusala and to eradicate akusala. > Would it be correct to state, categorically, that > samma-vayama of the > eightfold path is always, exclusively that > viriya-cetasika which > arises with samma-sati? All the path factors arise only with each other, either as 8 (at moment of experiencing nibbana) or as 5 excluding the 3 virati’s (moments of satipatthana). So viraya arising at other moments of citta would not be samma vayama of the 8-fold path. I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult area. Jon 3402 From: Dan Dalthorp Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:30am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon, O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi is. But why on earth would it be a part of the path? > > One of the factors of the eightfold path is samma > > samadhi. Why is > > that? > > Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata (concentration) > that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path. As > we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata cetasika > arises with every citta and performs its function > (`the welding together of coexistent states'). When > it arises with samma sati it is called samma samadhi > and it performs the function of focussing on the > object in the right way. > > How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path developed? > As discussed in some recent posts, the development of > sati is the key to the development of all the path > factors. If sati of the level of satipatthana is > developed, so are the other factors. Hence we have > satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana. > > Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to one of > the jhana factors which are developed in samatha in > order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana > [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61]. So references > in both contexts will be found in the texts. > > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development of > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these is > described in terms of observing the rise and fall of > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. > > Jon > > > 3403 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 1:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Antony & Mike, I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211) called the Gihi Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I didn't check to see if it's on the ati site. Jim >Dear Anthony, > >I also haven't been able to find this either in V III >or in Section III of the PTS AN. Do you know the >title of this, or any other details? > >Thanks... > >mike > >--- wrote: >> I'm trying to find a sutra >> >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211 >> >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by >> lay people >> >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I have >> searched Access >> to insight but to no avail. >> >> any help would be appreciated. >> >> antony >> 3404 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:20am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Jim & Antony, Here it is: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html Thanks, Jim! mn --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Antony & Mike, > > I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211) > called the Gihi > Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I > didn't check to see if > it's on the ati site. > > Jim > > >Dear Anthony, > > > >I also haven't been able to find this either in V > III > >or in Section III of the PTS AN. Do you know the > >title of this, or any other details? > > > >Thanks... > > > >mike > > > >--- wrote: > >> I'm trying to find a sutra > >> > >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211 > >> > >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by > >> lay people > >> > >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I > have > >> searched Access > >> to insight but to no avail. > >> > >> any help would be appreciated. > >> > >> antony > >> > >> 3405 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 0:24am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Gayank > >dear cybele, > > >Thanks for the piece of your brain, it tasted so good. > >yum,yum > >lobha,lobha > > >:o) > > >regds. I am glad that you could enjoy but is just an appetizer to stimulate your taste. Keep craving for more ;-) Love and respect Cybele 3406 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:22am Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Doctor Jekyll & Mr Hyde Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:17:48 -0000 Dear Amara I wrote: > I entirely agree and try to be mindful of this key point to develop some >wisdom and compassion in the Path. I am often deceived but I must say that >persisting in this awareness training I find my mind opposing less >resistance to it, the grasping is >there but somehow is not tight as before. It will be a long way till I >'surrender' but is heartening for me to realize >that I am a little bit less entangled and that little bit, influences my >life a great deal; sometimes I am amazed how my powerful ego seems to melt >away, to subside to bare attention. Amara wrote: Dear all, I suggest we hold the pots and pans and our urges to devour her brain because she will need all she has to study realities (as opposed to just function)!! Let us give her a good brainwashing instead(!!!) and nourish her with lots of food for thought from the Tipitaka so we could all walk the path together, with another great friend in the dhamma! So glad you're here, Cybele (by the way, what a beautiful name! How exactly do you pronounce it and does it mean anything? Hope I'm not too curious), =^_^= Amara Sorry I have been a bit busy and could not reply your encouraging message but I felt connected in my heart. Thanks Amara. And I am hungry for all nourishment you can offer me! By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there would be my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day. You are not too curious, I appreciate your interest. Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin. Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated in Greek-Roman mythology. It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and fecundity, connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element and soil fertility. She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the nature. Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most prestigious Zeus is her son. It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in the temple of Cybele paying due homage. There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-) The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a tantric practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional trance they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy libations and eventually evirating themselves. ;-) Just to warn the males on the list to treat me with due respect before I get angry!!! ;-)))) Joking, joking!! And what about your name Amara? Love and respect Cybele 3407 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:33am Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa Dear Gayan, You wrote: >dear jim, > >sanskrit 'medha' -> this can be seen in vedic rituals also [ done by kings, to >extend their domain perimeters] >ashvamedha yaaga(horse+medha) , purushamedha yaaga.(man+medha) Yes, I looked it up in Apte's Sanskrit dictionary as the meaning of medha (killing) in these instances differs from the one in the meaning of knowing, understanding. I think the reason for this is that the verbal root medh has three different meanings: medhaa (understanding), hi.msaa, (harm, injury, killing) & sa"ngama (coming together) according to the Dhatupatha. So it seems to me that the medha in the horse sacrifice would be related to the meaning of hi.msaa. >the Pali 'Bhaavanaa' is translated to english as meditation.. >the Pali 'jhaana'/'kjhaana' as musing.. 'musing' might be somewhat antiquated. I think I have seen the word more recently translated as 'meditative absorption'. >are there any links to 'bhaavanaa' from english or latin? bhaavana is derived from the Pali/Skt. root 'bhuu' which has been linked to the English verb 'be', the Latin stem 'fu-' as in 'future' and the Greek verb 'phuo'. For a translation of 'bhaavana' (lit. making become) I think of 'development' or 'cultivation'. But I know that 'meditation' is a fairly common translation or interpretation. While I was looking in one of the dictionaries it struck me that the word 'physical' from Gk 'phus-' (to blow) might be related to the Pali root 'phus' -- to touch and also the word 'phassa' -- contact. Best wishes, Jim A. 3408 From: Mark Rasmus Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:51am Subject: Re: Temple design Hello Pinna Thank you again for the info, I am sure the final result will be good. Mark --- "Indorf,Pinna Lee" wrote: > Dear Mark, > Yes the hall can be rectangular. And there are no rules that people must > enter through a door on the east. As Joe has mentioned the Thai tradition, I > could add that in many cases in Thai temples there are two doors to the > sides of the front of the image hall and people enter near the corners. At > the centre is a ceremonial door, often higher (steps up and down again) and > kept closed most of the time. It was also a custom in northern temples to > have a side door or doors as well. > Your comment about the grandness, seems to indicate a certain notion that > grandness of entrance is important. Is it important to involve the car with > this? To have the walk through the garden sounds to me rather nice. The > building could be seen, or part of it could be seen (roof elements?) from a > distance as one approaches, then after a walk through some landscape, the > building could then be approached through a forecourt. > There are no hard and fast rules, especially if it is primarily for lay > people, just lots of cultural customs. > best of luck, > Pinna > 3409 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:52am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Concepts, Realities and Dhammas - 3 Kom > > -----Original Message----- > > The following terms - > > ‘dhammarammana’ (arammana = object) > > ‘dhammayatana’ (ayatana = sphere, field) and > > ‘dhamma-dhatu’ (dhatu = element) > > all refer to the same thing, namely the objects > that > > can be experienced through the mind-door. As > > discussed in an earlier post, these objects do > include > > concepts. Concepts are the object of the citta > > (moment of consciousness) which thinks. > > Although I have not seen the commentaries, I > remember having > heard from Khun Sujin's explanation that > dhammaaramana can > be both paratha and pannatti, whereas dhmaayatana > and > dhamma-dhatu can't be only paramatha. Do you have a > reference of the text? i have checked my source. In Nyanatiloka's budhist Dictionary (BPS) i states under the entry "Ayatana"- "'Mind-object -base' (dhammayatana) is identical iwth 'mind-object-oeoment' (dhamma-dhatu) and dhammatammana. It may be physical or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary." [end quote] However, checking the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it seems that that sttement is incorrect, and not only for the reason you have given. In Ch VII, Compendium of the Whole, 5 different ways of classifying realities are discussed. In the section on the 12 ayatana (sense bases) it states (Guide to #36)- "The mental-object base [dhammayatana] does not completely coincide with mental ooject (dhammarammana), but includes only those entities not found among the other bases. Thus it excludes [for example, citta which is identical with the mind base]. It also excludes concepts (pannatti), since the notion of base extends only to ulitmate realities ie things existing by way of extrinsic nature (sabhaava), and does not extend to things that owe their existence to conceptual construction." Dhamma dhatu fall inot the same category. So the reference in my post to dhammatatana and dhamma-dhatu should be deleted. My apoligies for the error, and thatnks for picking it up, JOn 3410 From: Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:13am Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou) Dear Jim and Mike thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. there is a term in Hungry Shades "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended..." I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are? thanks again for your help. antony --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jim & Antony, > > Here it is: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html > > Thanks, Jim! > > mn > --- Jim Anderson <> wrote: > > Dear Antony & Mike, > > > > I think the sutta is the one at AN V.179 (A iii 211) > > called the Gihi > > Sutta (gihi means householder or layperson). I > > didn't check to see if > > it's on the ati site. > > > > Jim > > > > >Dear Anthony, > > > > > >I also haven't been able to find this either in V > > III > > >or in Section III of the PTS AN. Do you know the > > >title of this, or any other details? > > > > > >Thanks... > > > > > >mike > > > > > >--- <> wrote: > > >> I'm trying to find a sutra > > >> > > >> Anguttara Nikaya III 211 > > >> > > >> I hope it's about the practice of the precepts by > > >> lay people > > >> > > >> does anyone know if it can be located online. I > > have > > >> searched Access > > >> to insight but to no avail. > > >> > > >> any help would be appreciated. > > >> > > >> antony > > >> 3411 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou) Dear Antony, --- wrote: > "Hell is ended; animal wombs are > ended; the state of > the hungry shades is ended..." > > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take > on what they are? In a very general sense, don't you think it means and end to rebirths in states of woe? Or do you have something else in mind? mike 3412 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Num, Catching up again! You sent this a long time ago, and I'm not sure I ever thanked you for it. I've been familiar with both of these for a long time, but your reminder was very welcome: --- wrote: > Malunkyaputta sutta: Majjhima Nikaya 63, > Vacchagotta sutta: Majjhima Nikaya 72. > > The way the Buddha answered the questions is very > fascinating. Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting as an example of the Buddha directly teaching right view to a layperson with no reference to any kind of bhavana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html Thanks again. mike 3413 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 9:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] back to formal practice (was: kusala vipaka) Dear Robert and Bruce, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Panna - of the level of satipatthana - arises > due to > hearing Dhamma. But in its infancy it can't firmly > cognise > dhammas. Much patience, a parami, is needed I think. > Can we be patient and still see the urgency of the > task? Can we > understand that it is not us being patient? No, we can't can we? But khanti and pańńaa can--I think. mn 3414 From: Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 4:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (thankyou) Hi, Antony - In a message dated 2/12/01 7:14:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Dear Jim and Mike > > > thankyou for your work. It is the sutta I was looking for. > > there is a term in Hungry Shades > > "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of > the hungry shades is ended..." > > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are? > > > thanks again for your help. > > > antony > ========================= In case you only mean what does 'hungry shades' mean, I would say it means the same as 'hungry ghosts', beings in a lower realm of existence who are pictured with huge bellies but tiny mouths; they seem to correspond to the Western idea of ghosts who "hang around" because of their enormous craving for things of the earthly realm. If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3415 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] accumulating/ dispersion(Conditions_for_pańńa Dear Robert, --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > I use The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung tin). > P58. Triplets in the Matika > "...leading to accumulation' are those states which > go > about > severally arranging births and deaths in a round of > of destiny > like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by > layer in a > wall." > "...leading to accumulation are those causes which by > being > accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they > arise, to that > round of rebirth" > It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral > states". i.e > akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading > to dispersion > is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). This goes to the heart of the matter (vipassana vs samattha)--thanks. mike 3416 From: m. nease Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:02am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] conditions for Satipatthana Dear Khun Kom, --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > When I say "desire" in my > message, I > strictly meant "lobha", which can be only akusala. Of course. > (Chanda, on the other hand, can be kusala, akusala, > or > neither. While there is lobha, Chanda also arises > with it. > When there is sati, chanda also arises with it.) I didn't know this; of course I was attempting to refer to the kusala kind. A belated 'thanks' for this clarification. mike 3417 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: Doctor Jekyll , Mr. Hyde and me > By the way I live between Penang and Bangkok and if you live there would be > my pleasure having the chance to meet you one day. I would love that, we must get together with Betty, Shin, Sukin and Ivan and Elle- in fact let me extend a standing invitation to the Saturday English discussion (with Khun Sujin) at the foundation to anyone who happens to be in Bangkok on Saturday afternoons- just drop in at the foundation's (tiny) library from around 2-4/5. Everyone especially Khun Sujin loves fresh new faces (and brains)!!! > Indeed it's an unusual name of mythological origin. > Cybele is an ancient goddess from Phrigia in Asia after incorporated in > Greek-Roman mythology. > It's a powerful mother-goddess, a godess of prosperity and fecundity, > connected with the forces of nature, particularly the earth element and soil > fertility. > She embodies the female energy, the shakti, the power of the > nature. > Cybele is the mother of all gods in the Greek mythology and the most > prestigious Zeus is her son. > It's a very auspicious name. When I went to Greece I have been in the temple > of Cybele paying due homage. > There is a curiousity about the cult of the godess. :-) > The devotees in charge of the sacred ritual that is essentially a tantric > practice were all males and in the in the frenzy of the devotional trance > they would pay supreme homage to the goddess offering their holy libations > and eventually evirating themselves. ;-) Wow!!! Do they still do that nowadays? Are visitors allowed? Are women, or is it like the Muslim temples? Or are the women in a separate compartment like in the Jewish? I hear there are still fire worshippers, the Zoroastrians, in Iran, and they do allow tourists to visit. Probably loads of beliefs in India, especially in Benares, which I hear is mentioned along with Babylonia in ancient records- possibly the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world... > And what about your name Amara? Mine is probably the result of my mother's wishful thinking (at least I hope it wasn't irony!!!) a=not mara=mortal, Amara is supposed to mean deva or angel; an immortal (or maybe a 'Highlander'?!? Now there's a thought!... Perhaps I should take up sword fighting! fencing would be much more to my taste, though...) Do give me a call when you're in Bkk, we'll have lunch or arrange something off list, I really look forward to it, Amara 3418 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:22am Subject: Re: sutta search (thankyou) > "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of > the hungry shades is ended..." > > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they are? Dear Antony, I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms. Hope this helps, Amara 3419 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 11:46am Subject: Q&A8 Dear friends, I almost forgot to tell you that we put up Q&A8 up last night, in the Q&A section, Anumodana for your help, Bruce, Amara 3420 From: Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 2:32pm Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks) Thankyou for all the responses re: Hungry Ghosts, Hungry Shades, Petas I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them. As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of Mike and Jim. So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or conscious and suffering? --- "Amara" wrote: > > > "'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of > > the hungry shades is ended..." > > > > I'm glad they can be ended, does anyone have a take on what they > are? > > > Dear Antony, > > I think the Pali term would be the Peta translated by some as the > hungry ghosts, beings in one of the lower realms. > > Hope this helps, > > Amara 3421 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 3:47pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Khun Amara, Thanks for the correction, so the final counts, with all the counties' approval, For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1 For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana: 13+19+3+1. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 7:34 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting > and Paramattha Dhammas > > > Almost perfect, but I would like to follow the > current political nit > picking and demand a recount please! I think you > forgot that the > annasamana-cetasika: 13 already include the > sabba-cittta-sadharana-cetasika: 7 (+the 6 > pakinnaka cetasika = 13) so > in fact your final count has to be a little > smaller for both kinds of > citta, I think. > > The reasoning is quite flawless and exact, thank > you for the > reminders, > > Amara > > > 3422 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 5:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dan Sorry to be slow in getting your point here. I'm going to have to ask for clarification. > O.K., so we have some idea about what samma samadhi > is. But why on > earth would it be a part of the path? Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer you are looking for. Could you please amplify a little? Thanks Jon > > > One of the factors of the eightfold path is > samma > > > samadhi. Why is > > > that? > > > > Samma samadhi is the cetasika ekaggata > (concentration) > > that arises with samma sati of the eightfold path. > As > > we know from our abhidhamma studies, ekaggata > cetasika > > arises with every citta and performs its function > > (`the welding together of coexistent states'). > When > > it arises with samma sati it is called samma > samadhi > > and it performs the function of focussing on the > > object in the right way. > > > > How is samma samadhi of the eightfold path > developed? > > As discussed in some recent posts, the development > of > > sati is the key to the development of all the path > > factors. If sati of the level of satipatthana is > > developed, so are the other factors. Hence we > have > > satipatthana, but no samadhi-patthana. > > > > Samma samadhi is also the term used to refer to > one of > > the jhana factors which are developed in samatha > in > > order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhana > > [this from NVG's 'Cetasikas' at p.61]. So > references > > in both contexts will be found in the texts. > > > > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development > of > > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these > is > > described in terms of observing the rise and fall > of > > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. > > > > Jon 3423 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 7:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Amara and everybody > > If we are not evolved or simply attuned in that moment with the >knowledge > > that is being displayed for how much wise and genuine it might be >you cannot > > be forceful. > >Of course everyone starts out with the self studying the dhamma, >understanding or misunderstanding the teachings, experiencing the >dhamma. But in reality there is no us to be anything, simply the >citta that is conditioned to arise with right understanding or not, to >study realities or not, to grow strong or not. If one understands >that we can't control even the seeing now, we don't really have a >choice to sit here and read, and it is already past, the moment you >realize that. The seeing at that moment has fallen away, it is the >new instant of citta that is seeing ever changing sights or visible >objects. It has been a long time by now that I am not trying to control anything, anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma sister. That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, no plans, no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. And Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey. You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you to. You just can keep going and flow along with life. Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness. I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by. I am more and more surrendering to the present moment. You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in losing control. I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day life experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my eyes looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and breathing life without choking in my own perplexitie. Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day. My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I walk on by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content another. I just mind to keep walking. Love and respect Cybele 3424 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks) > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries > there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and > pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. > Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but > you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them. > > As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' > as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what > the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have > thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of > Mike and Jim. > > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or > conscious and suffering? Dear Antony, As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended a lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta to arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things. But it seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in any way, some of them are able to see us. But in their world there is no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with others' good deeds. In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's relatives being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were able to anumodana. With the power of their own kusala citta and accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations, their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant surroundings or something to that effect. It is not that the offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other realms have would probably not be the same as ours. Certainly people offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind of 'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best catch of the day! Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or dimension' or space and time... The peta also have their own food and such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing how people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not relief and better things. If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it. Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm us if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen. Secondly the giving is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as if they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta mafia!) from the poor peta. About this kind of belief, there is an article in the intermediate section of that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'. It does not mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone (or being) that might harm us. Hope you find it interesting, Amara 3425 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:34pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > the final counts, with all the > counties' approval, > > For the first Jhana: 13+19+0+1 or 13+19+1+1 > For the lokkuttara at the steadfastness of the first jhana: > 13+19+3+1. BRAVO!!!!! HAIL TO THE CHIEF ACCOUNTANT! A. 3426 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 13, 2001 8:46pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just drifting away, no plans, > no security, no control, only the awareness of the present moment. And > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this journey. Dear Cybele and all my friends, With dhamma as your companion isn't if strange one never has time to be lonely? Yet the dhamma is a very lonely path that each must walk alone, it is so extremely private. In the world of paramattha dhamma there is no one, not ever our selves, yet in the ordinary world of conventions, it is still nice to have relatives and friends and companions on the path, especially to discuss the dhamma with. And since all realities are dhamma, it's wonderful to just read all your posts, thank you all, Amara > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness doesn't allows you to. > You just can keep going and flow along with life. > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my consciousness. > I am opposing less and less resistance more the years pass by. > I am more and more surrendering to the present moment. > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find delight in losing > control. > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence of day by day life > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the ground and my eyes > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very next step and breathing > life without choking in my own perplexitie. > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Day by day. > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and shadows and I walk on > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet and content another. I > just mind to keep walking. > > Love and respect > > Cybele 3427 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks) Hello Again, Antony, --- wrote: > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way > still alive or > conscious and suffering? Has anyone ever died? Is anyone alive or conscious and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on conditions? When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the Nihongo for this). This noodle was snipped quite short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as such. I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical than literal sense. However, besides the fact that I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to 'supernatural' phenomena. I'm sure the Abhidhamma texts have discussed this and maybe one of our scholars can give you a more definitive answer. Hungrily, The Ghost of mn 3428 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Dan and Jon, Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path is a concept, but that its component moments of consciousness and their attendant factors are 'real', in the sense that they can be the objects of satipatthana vipassana? mike --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dan > > Sorry to be slow in getting your point here. I'm > going to have to ask for clarification. > > > O.K., so we have some idea about what samma > samadhi > > is. But why on > > earth would it be a part of the path? > > Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas > (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path > citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer > you > are looking for. Could you please amplify a little? > > > Thanks > Jon > 3430 From: Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:27am Subject: May there be joy in Peta realms Dear Amara Thankyou for that great post. For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might do. It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome with joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in the Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy. Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with us. It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make a big racket and even scratch people. Anyway thannks for that very interesting post. I will go right away and have a look at the 'The Master Avengers'. Antony --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > I have heard that in Vietnam and in other South East Asian countries > > there is a ceremony for the hungry ghost. They offer them food and > > pray that the thin throat grows temporarily so that they can eat it. > > Apparently this happens outside cause you don't want em inside, but > > you want to show them that you are compassionate toward them. > > > > As I understand it the Hungry Ghost is indigenous to the 'Far East' > > as they used to call it out west. So I wonder if that could be what > > the Peta is. I have looked at this word before so I should have > > thought of it when I was looking at the Housholder Sutta, care of > > Mike and Jim. > > > > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in someway still alive or > > conscious and suffering? > > > Dear Antony, > > As I understand it they are beings that have cuti ('died' or ended a > lifetime) from an existence and their kamma caused their next citta to > arise in the peta realm or dimension or world as vipaka (result of > past kamma), where from whatever bad deed they did would cause them > extreme hunger all through that existence, among other things. But it > seems that although we cannot see or come into contact with them in > any way, some of them are able to see us. But in their world there is > no way for them to perform kusala, the only possibility for them to > have kusala citta is to anumodana (have empathetic joy) with others' > good deeds. In the Tipitaka there is a story about a King's relatives > being born in that world and after the King learnt about it and > performed great kusala, I think to the Buddha and the arahanta, and > dedicated it to them in order that they know about it they were able > to anumodana. With the power of their own kusala citta and > accompanying piti, probably plus their other good accumulations, > their sufferings ceased and they were able to enjoy more pleasant > surroundings or something to that effect. It is not that the > offerings were what mattered to them because whatever foods other > realms have would probably not be the same as ours. Certainly people > offering their favorite dishes to the devas who have their own kind of > 'ambrosia' would be comparable to your car offering you his best catch > of the day! Except your cat and you are in the same 'world or > dimension' or space and time... The peta also have their own food and > such, although if they can have kusala citta arising from seeing how > people want to help them it might also bring some comfort if not > relief and better things. > > If on the other hand people offer them things out of fear, and > therefore ignorance, I wonder if much good will result from it. > Firstly, whatever happens to us is our own kamma, none could harm us > if it were not our own vipaka to have it happen. Secondly the giving > is in a sense for the person performing the offering, it seems as if > they were in fact paying for protection (as if there were a peta > mafia!) from the poor peta. About this kind of belief, there is an > article in the intermediate section of > that might interest you, called 'The Master Avengers'. It does not > mention peta in particular, but a general idea of appeasing anyone (or > being) that might harm us. > > Hope you find it interesting, > > Amara 3431 From: Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:33am Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks) My dear Hungry M A noodle for you, a very short noodle. May your every noodle be shorter than the one before. Actually I think the Noodle Offering is a fine thing. I am sure that it is reported in the sutta's that Buddha has said on more than one occassion that if we only knew what it was that he knew we would never let a meal go by without sharing it. Such is the power and benefit from sharing what we have with others, even those in the peta realms. I think from now on I will always think of them before I eat my lunch. antony --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hello Again, Antony, > > --- <> wrote: > > > So is a Peta someone who has died and is in some way > > still alive or > > conscious and suffering? > > Has anyone ever died? Is anyone alive or conscious > and suffering? Or are these just transient, impersonal > phenomena arising and subsiding dependent on > conditions? > > When I was a zen student we used to offer one noodle > to the hungry ghosts before meals (I forget the > Nihongo for this). This noodle was snipped quite > short to symbolize wishing the ghost a short life as > such. > > I've always taken this in a much more metaphorical > than literal sense. However, besides the fact that > I'm generally wrong about this sort of thing, I also > tend to err on the side of metaphor when it comes to > 'supernatural' phenomena. I'm sure the Abhidhamma > texts have discussed this and maybe one of our > scholars can give you a more definitive answer. > > Hungrily, > > The Ghost of mn > 3432 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hi, Bruce, still catching up... --- bruce wrote: > mike, i was just ready to post the below message > when my automailchecker > downloaded your message with the link -- we must be > reading the same sutta > at the same time, halfway around the globe from each > other! Very nice coincidence! > > The Rohitassa Sutta (AN IV i 41) gives 4 types of > > samadhi-bhavana, 2 of which refer to development > of > > jhana and 2 of which refer to development of > > mindfulness and understanding. The last of these > is > > described in terms of observing the rise and fall > of > > the 5 kkhandas of grasping. I've seen a few suttas now which seem to me involve the arising of satipatthana following (dependent on?) samadhi. I wouldn't argue at this point that this approach was never taken--though I'm not confident that this is beyond dispute. I think I'd have to read more and have a better understanding of the key pali terms (in case of misleading translations) to come to a firm conclusion either way. To tell you the truth, I have no pony in this race. The question 'to meditate or not to meditate' is of less interest to me than might seem to be the case given the amount of time I've spent blathering about it. Much more to the point though, I think, is the question of the nature of the path-factors. Are they training goals, to be achieved, (conceptual) ideals to be worked toward, states to be developed, or infinitesimally brief moments with extremely specific characteristics which only arise beginning with perfected view? Some or all or none of the above? I don't pretend to know the answer(s) to this question. I admit to having taken it for granted for a long time that they were something like the first three, and now to be leaning toward the 4th. But I have no intention of coming to a conclusion on the subject until satisfied by experience and by considering and comparing what I've heard and read and experienced with the discourses--and the Abhidhamma. I will say this: I'm more and more satisfied, regardless of the issue of formal samadhi practice in the Buddha's day, that samadhi sufficient to be samma-samadhi of the eightfold path apparently CAN (and very often did) arise sufficient for liberation without previous samatha-bhavana (except, perhaps, in previous lives, as I believe Howard pointed out). Hope you don't think I'm 'toeing the party line', this is surely not my conscious intention. Very glad to see you continuing to pursue this, Bruce and I do have faith in the sincerity of your investigations... mike 3433 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Hello, Howard, --- wrote: > Hi, Mike - > > I find the following sutta, found at the url > you kindly provided, to > be interesting but slightly perplexing. I copy the > sutta below, inserting > comments/questions: I quite enjoyed this sutta (guess I do most of 'em), but was at least as perplexed as you were. I confess I don't have even an inkling of an answer to any of your questions--I hope some of our scholars will. I've made a habit for such a long time now, of sort of putting those real head-scratchers aside. Sometimes I come back to them years later and read them in a whole new light. Maybe that'll be true of this one too, impermanence permitting. mike 3434 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect), --- Amara wrote: > how are > your glossary files coming? I resolved some time back (QUITE some time now) to wait till your revisions were complete, to avoid re-revisions. I hope I haven't missed anything--have you finished? So far, I believe I have a perfect record of having accomplished precisely none of the projects I've professed the willingness to undertake. When your revisions are complete, I'll undertake to change that record--at least I SAY I will... mike 3435 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:03am Subject: Re: May there be joy in Peta realms > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these > poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might do. > > It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and > enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome with > joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in the > Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy. > > Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I > associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and > learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I > felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was > Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right > infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I > laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood > and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat > would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation > would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with us. > It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over > and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make > a big racket and even scratch people. Dear Antony, If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even more 'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine biologist or in some related field. They have their worlds and you yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you were to your cat)? Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences). As both are kusala citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, citta or cetasika) that appears. But since kusala leads to kusala, there could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored. Helping whatever beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that better than cutting up noodles for the peta? A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and I don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle (according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, pass through it? And just in case it did, and if it were really peta food, why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so they would die sooner?!? wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why feed the poor things at all? Anumodana is a different story, when there is empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if it makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' citta, who really appreciate the kusala being done. Which is why sharing whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing your meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it must be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own inclinations) or have done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala action not to be neglected. Whether they do or not depends on their accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your part anyway. If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who might know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that beings in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our petty deeds on earth, unlike about the smallest gesture the Buddha had ever done). Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the Buddha had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting for him or were able to know he was there. If you were a brahma who lived impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit to you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there? I've made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable (and personable) people for far more trivial reasons. So sharing whatever is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the Buddha's arrival or his teachings. But sharing unwisely, or without studying the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for those who could never eat them anyway. It would have been better to have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it yourself! May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from it, irrespective of higher, lower or human birth. Amara 3436 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect), > I hope I haven't missed anything--have > you finished? Dear Sir Mike, You may kiss my ruby ring and rise! We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided to include those in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that, but I thought you were going to design the easily portable folding booklet or pamphlet or something like that for us? Must be my faulty memory again! Amara 3438 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Amara wrote: > > Dear Cardinal Amara (I genuflect), > > I hope I haven't missed anything--have > > you finished? > > Dear Sir Mike, > > You may kiss my ruby ring and rise! > > We are finished with the 'Summary' but have decided > to include those > in the 'Paccaya' too, so are still working on that, > but I thought you > were going to design the easily portable folding > booklet or pamphlet > or something like that for us? Must be my faulty > memory again! I'm afraid I exaggerated my part in this a little--I know a very nice photocopy machine which will do that FOR me. Then it will be cheap and easy (my two middle names) to mail them out, AND then I THINK I'll also be able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2 x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. This will require some instructions for pagination and front-and-back printing. That's the plan, anyway--thought flash cards might be nice too, though I haven't tackled that as a printing problem as yet. I thought these would be particularly good for cittas and cetasikas, with the Pali on one side and the English equivalent, VSM characteristics, proximate causes, near & far enemies etc. on the back. Promises, promises... mike 3439 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 0:58pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > I THINK I'll also be > able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a > PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 1/2 > x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" booklet. > This will require some instructions for pagination and > front-and-back printing. When we're finished we'll ask you to send the instruction/sample over so it can be printed together with the Summary, to save costs a bit further! Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, Amara 3440 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Num, While we wait for Num to return from South America, may I chip in? > > Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly interesting > as > an example of the Buddha directly teaching right > view > to a layperson with no reference to any kind of > bhavana: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html > Is this true? For me, when I read the sutta it is all about bhavana and in particular about vipassana bhavana (development of insight mental development). The following extract is talking about understanding the 5 khandhas(aggregates) consisting of rupa, vedana, sanna, citta and cetaskikas, as not self. This is the heart of vipassana bhavana: quote: Have I misunderstood you? Regards, Sarah 3441 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 3:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Antony & friends, I find the sutta you've kindly referred us all to useful for other reasons too. Firstly it reminds us that developing panna (wisdom) to this level (sotapanna) is the only way to end rebirths in these hell planes and 'states of woe'. It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's teachings. We may think we have this confidence now, but who knows what may happen in the future in this life or other lives? Only the one who has developed this highly developed panna has unshakeable confidence. Furthermore, although we may try to follow the 5 precepts and seem pretty successful for much of the time, again only the sotapanna will follow without hesitation and under any circumstances. In other words, the path of satipathana is also the path of developing perfect sila. 'The noble one reviews his moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is how I'd rephrase an earlier quote. Thanks for the good reminders here! Back to reality! Sarah T --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jim & Antony, > > Here it is: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an5-179.html > 3442 From: Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:17pm Subject: Re: meditation/medhaa ok Thanks Jim, 3443 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 5:29pm Subject: Re: sutta search > It also clearly tells us how it's only the sotapanna > who has unwavering confidence in the Buddha's > teachings. We may think we have this confidence now, > but who knows what may happen in the future in this > life or other lives? Only the one who has developed > this highly developed panna has unshakeable > confidence. Dear Sarah, Thanks for this reminder. When I said I had 'unlimited confidence in the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had such 'unwavering' faith of the sotapanna level, far from it. But I still feel that for my own standards at present my confidence is unlimited, and growing, I'm certain. Of course still hardly comparable to that of the Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions! Amara 3444 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- Amara wrote: > > I THINK I'll also be > > able to format it into a Word document (or maybe a > > PDF) that will be (fairly) easy to print out on 8 > 1/2 > > x 11" paper and fold into a 4 1/4 x 5 1/2" > booklet. > > This will require some instructions for pagination > and > > front-and-back printing. > > When we're finished we'll ask you to send the > instruction/sample over > so it can be printed together with the Summary, to > save costs a bit > further! Yes, of course--if this works, we should be able to email the whole package to anyone to print out from her/his own printer or whatever. If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky pagination)? Please let me know if you need any particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc. mike 3445 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Mike, > While we wait for Num to return from South America, > may I chip in? > > > > Yes, and the Vacchagotta is particuarly > interesting > > as > > an example of the Buddha directly teaching right > > view > > to a layperson with no reference to any kind of > > bhavana: > Have I misunderstood you? > > Regards, > Sarah Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as usual). I used 'bhavana' to try to get around objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense of formal meditation. Clearly, vipassana bhavana is what is meant. Thanks! mike 3446 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > 'The noble one reviews his > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' is > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote. I think that works fine--do you think it changes the meaning? Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it goes... mike 3447 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupas and Stupas Dear Mark, I wrote a long point by point message and somehow it got lost...(I think I must have forgotten that 'send' button') so I'll try a shortened quickie now.. Firstly best wishes for the temple. You've certainly had some expert comments recently as joe told me he's just putting the finishing touches to a book on Stupas and Pinna has written plenty of research and her phd thesis on the subject I believe... Back to rupas... I understand a little better now what your meaning is. Thankyou for the patient elaboration. Just one or two points and a few questions.. Firstly, as you say the abhidhamma (and in particular the Discourse on Elements (Dhatus)) provides very precise details of all the various elements. In fact we are provided with very precise details about all the realities which make up what we mistakenly take for self. However, there are no rituals for 'manifesting' the rupas (physical phenomena that don't experience anything). The concern in the abhidhamma (and all the Tipitaka) is with understanding these realities when they appear rather than selecting. When you talk about the laws of energy and vibrating energy it reminds me a little of 'chi' as I understand it from my Tai chi practice or acupuncture. There is a question about the goal however. When I practice Tai Chi and use the 'chi' the purpose is quite different from the purpose of studying the Buddha's teachings. The development of panna (wisdom) is just as valid for someone confined to a hospital bed as for an active martial arts student. I'm not sure that there is anything simple in this path but I agree it is ideal for martial arts students AND anyone else. You mention that all the 'good stuff' has been written later by the high lamas...I'm afraid you'll have to elaborate on this. Like what? You also mention the cultural differences. Here we are very multi-cultural on the list and yet the Buddha's teachings are equally valid for us all, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. Mark, I'm not sure this 2nd hastier reply gives all your detailed and careful explanations due justice. If I've misunderstood you or any of my comments are not appropriate please let me know and I'll be interested to reply again. Hope to talk soon too! Sarah p.s Cybele, you were bowing to the right Joe C., in mexico for the time being he tells me... --- Mark Rasmus wrote: > I teach a martial arts system that is of > chinese/buddhist origin, > Hence my interest in Buddhism. I am building a > retreat to teach this > martial art as well as setting up a temple dedicated > to buddhist > practices. > > > I had also meant to follow up on your earlier > posts > > but I wasn't quite clear about your questions: > > > > --- Mark Rasmus <> wrote: > > > > > I have studied universal laws through the > western > > > traditions for most > > > of my life, so I have developed a base knowledge > of > > > the elements which > > > as everyone would know are the building blocks > of > > > creation > > > > I'm not sure at all that I know. Would you kindly > > explain. > > > > The western hermetic tradition was named after an > egyptian priest > called hermes trismegistos. It basically offers an > initiation in > understanding the inner process of nature, often > refered to as > universal laws. Among most metaphysical systems are > rituals for > manifesting the elements of fire, air, water and > earth. These are base > energies that make up the enviroment we live. > Check the abhidhamma, third book, discourse on > elements. > > > and the > > > underlying structure of penetrating into the > > > universal laws. This was > > > one of the first things I was taught when I > entered > > > the path of light. > > > > Sorry, I'm lost. What is the path of light and > what is > > this structure? > > > > The path of light is a common term in metaphysical > circles for people > cultivating the positive virtues and walking the > postive > metaphysical path. > The structure of universal laws is quite deep, but I > will give a brief > outline of the basics. > Amongst a wide range of meditation exercises, > students are taught the > law of vibration, that everything within creation is > energy vibrating. > The law of polarity, that all energy has its polar > opposite. The laws > of rythm, how energy fluctuates and and how the > cycles of rythm > control our enviroment our minds and our bodies. > The law of manifestation, how matter comes into > existence through the > realms and the laws that control this process. > The list goes on and on. each meditation exercise in > the method has an > inner teaching that brings about inner understanding > of these laws. So > these laws are not just intellectual property of the > Initiate, but are > experienced through the teachings. > > > > Since there is only one true universal law, we > are > > > looking at the same > > > thing through a different cultural perpective. > > > > What is this law? > > > > Brief description above, the teachings of buddha > describe many of the > laws of nature that I have described above plus many > more in a > different cultural gift rap. > > > I am > > > very drawn to the > > > Buddhist system due to the many advantages it > offers > > > the cultivator. > > > From what I have seen on my current level of > > > understanding, it is a > > > very pure path. Most of the western traditions > that > > > I have looked at > > > have lost there purity due to cultural > saturation > > > into the systems. > > > > Again, would you elaborate. > > > > The buddhist method offers a simple appraoch to the > lay person through > the four noble truths and the eightfold path. This > is ideal as a > guideline for living for martial arts students. > > The buddhist approach places great emphasis on > purity of > thought,emotions and actions which is good for > people in the early > stages of spiritual growth. But I am starting to get > the feeling that > the monks hourded all the good stuff in their secret > doctrines that > have been written by the high lamas over the > centuries. > I think Buddha only introduced the mind stram of > tuning into the > natural processes of over coming incarnation and > most of the > interesting stuff was generated by later generations > that followed the > mindstream he set up. > > Applying cultural aspects to any philosphy of > universal laws of nature > is a quick way to polute it, but it cant be helped. > It is necessary to > be accepted into the culture of various countries. > > > > This has driven me to be a solo cultivator for > the > > > last 13 years. > > > Doe buddhism have exercises for manifesting > these > > > base energies? > > > > I need to know more about what these energies are > and > > why you want to manifest them. In other words, > what > > are your goals and interests in studying Buddhism? > > > > Goals and interests listed above. These energies are > talked about in > the abhidharmma, discourse on elements. > > > Sorry if I sound dense, but I'd genuinely like to > > understand better where you're coming from in > terms of > > your interest and understanding. > > > > Many hermetic masters retire into buddhism due to > hermetics having a > universal perspective that all religions are > pathways to understanding > greater forces and principles of nature. Many > hermetic practitioners > incarnate into buddhism due to the purity of spirit > that buddhism > creates. > > > Mark, hope you stay with us for long enough to > follow > > along these threads. > > > > Be happy to discuss it. > > > Best wishes for the temple design plans, > > > > Sarah > > > > Thank you, Talk soon > Mark > > > > 3448 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > If you want to print it with the Summary, I assume > you'll need an ordinary text version too (no tricky > pagination)? Please let me know if you need any > particualar page-setup (margins & so on), 'fonts' etc. It would not be in the same volume, of course, but as a pamphlet or something easy to carry and use, not just programs to print out yourself, though that is an interesting idea. For the moment I thought since we will be printing the book soon we might get the glossary done there as a package. (At least the person who is arranging it advices.) Amara 3449 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Mike, O.K.! So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental development' which can be either samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana or both....! So I think what you're saying is there's no reference to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged, concentrate on anything etc ...(by prescription or description...) Sarah --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Well, yes, but my fault for poor use of Pali (as > usual). I used 'bhavana' to try to get around > objections to the use of 'meditation' in the sense > of > formal meditation. Clearly, vipassana bhavana is > what > is meant. > > Thanks! > > mike > > 3450 From: m. nease Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: what can citta know? Dear Sarah, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Mike, > > O.K.! > > So what I understand when I read bhavana is 'mental > development' which can be either samatha bhavana or > vipassana bhavana or both....! Of course, yes. > So I think what you're saying is there's no > reference > to instructing anyone to sit cross-legged, > concentrate > on anything etc ...(by prescription or > description...) That is what I meant, yes. Thanks for your patience... mike 3451 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > > 'The noble one reviews his > > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' > is > > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote. > > I think that works fine--do you think it changes the > meaning? Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it > goes... To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna which would be a little different from your interpretation to Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could well be corrected on this ...Jim? Jon? Robert? o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon... -- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reviewing his own > moral > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, > and > he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way > of > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the > plane of the noble ones." [end quote] You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is arising dependent on perfect conduct, then pańńaa is arising dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti, leading to awakening. Sila, samadhi and pańńaa in one neat little package... > The passage then goes on to talk about the > abandoning > of the hindrances to jhana. > > I think the meaning is clear. One cannot > successfully > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first > developed mindfulness. Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check! Sarah > 3452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Mike & Dan Thanks for your comments, Mike. i am reminded of something further to say to Dan. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Dan and Jon, > > Would it be fair to say here that the Eightfold Path > is a concept, but that its component moments of > consciousness and their attendant factors are > 'real', > in the sense that they can be the objects of > satipatthana vipassana? The 8-fold path is actually a moment of path consciousness with nibbana as object. Only at such momens do the 8 factors arise together. At such moments, and only at such moments, the 8 factors are 'samma'. They cannot be 'samma' at any other moment, no matter to what level the particular cetasika (mental factor) may have been developed. When the Buddha is declaring the various path factors, he is describing them as they arise at a moment of path consciousness, ie. at the moment of enlightenment. As we know, at such moments levels of kilesa are eradicted. Each of the path factors is taking effect at a level or in a manner that it does not otherwise function at. The momentary samma samadhi is of the level of jhana, regardless of the person's attainment of mundane jhana. I don't know if this sheds any light. Jon 3453 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Amara, I'm sure you're speaking conventionally and no one is expecting you to have the saddha of a sotapanna..we all understood what you meant.... but then, one day, perhaps.... It's always good to hear of your enthusiasm for the dhamma! (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather than the lobha here..) Sarah --- Amara wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for this reminder. When I said I had > 'unlimited confidence in > the Buddha' I had no intention to imply that I had > such 'unwavering' > faith of the sotapanna level, far from it. But I > still feel that for > my own standards at present my confidence is > unlimited, and growing, > I'm certain. Of course still hardly comparable to > that of the > Sotapanna, I hope I never have any such delusions! > > Amara > 3454 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Feb 14, 2001 10:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] sutta search Dear sarah, i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha) as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. Reviewing his own > > moral > > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, > > and > > he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way > > of > > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the > > plane of the noble ones." [end quote] > This type of individual - who is 'freed both ways" attains jhana and has the extraordinary level of accumualtions that can study the dhammas that occur associated with jhana immediately that the jhana state finishes. this type of individual is rarer than the sukkhavipassaka. Note that even if someone can attain jhana it is no guarantee that they will be this type that can review the jhana factors by satipatthana. they might still have to go via sukkavipassaka - it all depends on accumulations. If one wants to be this type of special ariyan one must develop both samattha and vipassana over many lives. It is a more comprehensive and thus longer path than that of the sukkavipassaka. robert --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear > Sarah, > > > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > wrote: > > > > > 'The noble one reviews his > > > moral discipline, sees no blemishes and has piti' > > is > > > how I'd rephrase an earlier quote. > > > > I think that works fine--do you think it changes the > > meaning? Doesn't seem so to me--as far as it > > goes... > > To me it suggests the highly developed sila along with > satipatthana to at least the level of sotapanna which > would be a little different from your interpretation > to Jon which I'll try to find and add below. I could > well be corrected on this ...Jim? Jon? Robert? > > o.k. now I'm quoting from your reply to Jon... > > -- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Reviewing his own > > moral > > discipline, he does not see any stain or blemish, > > and > > he arouses rapture. Exploring that rapture by way > > of > > its destruction and falling away, he enters upon the > > plane of the noble ones." [end quote] > > You (Mike) said: It sounds like samadhi (with piti) is > arising > dependent on perfect conduct, then pańńaa is arising > dependent on mindfulness of (impermanence of ) piti, > leading to awakening. Sila, samadhi and pańńaa in one > neat little package... > > > The passage then goes on to talk about the > > abandoning > > of the hindrances to jhana. > > > > I think the meaning is clear. One cannot > > successfully > > lead the secluded forest life unless one has first > > developed mindfulness. > > Actually it's a bit late here and I'm a bit tired, so > I'll pull out the books tomorrow and re-check! > > Sarah > > 3455 From: Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:34am Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms Have no fear Amara I am no Noodle offerer, cut or not cut. But that does not take away the possible benefit for offering noodle for as you say: "So sharing whatever > is good is always an asset" But, due to my ignorance, could explain what this means: Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences). As both are kusala > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, citta > or cetasika) that appears. Thanks for the care you take to reply in depth, even though I know you must love doing it :) antony --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > For some reason I felt a small thrill at the idea of these > > poor 'things' being benefited by experiencing joy at what I might > do. > > > > It made me think of some of the retellings of the birth and > > enlightenment of Buddha, that beings in all realms were overcome > with > > joy that he had arrived. When he became enlightened the beings in > the > > Peta realms must have been falling over themselves with Joy. > > > > Funny you mention the cat. I was once meditating with a group who I > > associated with for a few years. We met twice a week to practice and > > learn. One day when the group had been 'sitting' for about 45 mins I > > felt a presence infront of me in the room. I looked up and there was > > Cottie the cat, she had brought a mouse in and plopped it down right > > infront and then proceeded to meeow loudly. Poor mouse I know, but I > > laughed a lot later on. Of course at the time I said nothing I stood > > and picked up the cat and mouse and placed them outside. That cat > > would stay outside most of the time, but whenever the meditation > > would start the cat would come in and want to sit in the room with > us. > > It went on for years. some times you would have to call the cat over > > and let it snuggle up beside you during the sitting or it would make > > a big racket and even scratch people. > > > > Dear Antony, > > If you had read the 'Avengers' by now you must have seen that > preoccupation with what you can't know for sure is probably even more > 'papanca' (or mental proliferation) than wondering about how many > species of coelacanthes there are, unless you happen to be a marine > biologist or in some related field. They have their worlds and you > yours, even if you wanted to feed them you would have to find them > first, what about being kind to whatever being is there (as you were > to your cat)? Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences). As both are kusala > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, citta > or cetasika) that appears. But since kusala leads to kusala, there > could be sati studying realities arising in alternation, so any > accumulation of kusala is never to be ignored. Helping whatever > beings we can when the occasion arises, having only friendship for > them without the slightest thought of harming anyone, isn't that > better than cutting up noodles for the peta? > > A funny thought, that, if the peta really did have tiny mouths (and I > don't think I've ever seen anything like that in the Tipitaka, but > then I haven't read the half of it) like the eye of a needle > (according to Thai beliefs) how would a noodle, thin as they are, pass > through it? And just in case it did, and if it were really peta food, > why not make them extra long, maybe a bowlful single thread or > whatever, to fill them up instead of feeding them a short one (so they > would die sooner?!? wierd reasoning ro me!!!) in which case why feed > the poor things at all? Anumodana is a different story, when there is > empathic joy in what others do, one can really feel the piti and if it > makes your heart light, it must have the same effect on others' citta, > who really appreciate the kusala being done. Which is why sharing > whatever kusala you are doing (I wonder if the thought of sharing your > meal counts because the kamma has not been completed, although it must > be good for accumulating latent tendencies for your own inclinations) > or have done by dedicating it for anyone elses' anumodana, (anyone > else who can have knowledge of it, of course,) is another kusala > action not to be neglected. Whether they do or not depends on their > accunmulations, but that is another story: you would have done your > part anyway. > > If there were really peta that can see you or know of your gesture > then, and anumodana, they might have enough kusala arising to > alleviate their pains too, and other humans or higher beings who might > know might have some kusala citta arising (btw it is said that beings > in too high or too low a plain would probably not know about our petty > deeds on earth, unlike about the smallest gesture the Buddha had ever > done). Which is why all the worlds rejoiced when they knew the Buddha > had arisen in the universe, at least among those who were waiting for > him or were able to know he was there. If you were a brahma who lived > impossibly long lives and knew that the Buddha would be there maybe > for a few hours of your lifetime, yet who could be of great benefit to > you in your search for true happiness, wouldn't you be there? I've > made some endless journeys to see incomparably less knowledgeable (and > personable) people for far more trivial reasons. So sharing whatever > is good is always an asset, even spreading the news about the Buddha's > arrival or his teachings. But sharing unwisely, or without studying > the matter first, could make you do things like cut up noodles for > those who could never eat them anyway. It would have been better to > have given it to a stray dog or anyone hungry, or even eaten it > yourself! > > May we all profit fully from sharing by understanding how to do it > wisely; thereby sharing with anyone who might know or profit from it, > irrespective of higher, lower or human birth. > > Amara 3456 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks) To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came in today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is the commentary (bhyasha) on it. "HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB." The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth spontaneously as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that still does not satisfy me." Jim A. 3457 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:01am Subject: Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot > > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in this > > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences). As both are > kusala > > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana > > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they > > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, > citta > > or cetasika) that appears. Dear Antony, Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna is to help whomever is in need of assistance. These exist in all society, and do not require the knowledge of the true nature of realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness. Although practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity and enhancement of kusala. At that moment there is the entity being helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the condiments at the dinner table others can't reach. At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur. The temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it change at every split second. Seeing is infinitely faster, at the moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all thinking. Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since it participates in all the other dvara functions as well. Seeing arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye. All this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light is only a rupa. (For a much more detailed and comprehensive explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the advanced section of ) Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only kusala is developed but instants of panna as well. When you pass the salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of whatever is there to be studied. With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by taking their place at that instant. And since the citta can only arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, besides gradually increasing panna. Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write. By nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone! Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3458 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:11am Subject: Re: sutta search > (hope I'm encouraging the wholesome rather > than the lobha here..) Dear all, Speaking of lobha, I have been invited to a weekend celebrating the reign of King Narai the Great whose capital was in Lop Buri where they promise a huge spectacle of 'light and sound' at the palace ruins, not to mention feasts and festivals... Leaving tomorrow, therefore will be signing off for a few days... Looking forward to reading all the posts when I get back, after my lobha bath!!! Amara 3459 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks) --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > To add to the discussion on hungry ghosts, this little tidbit came in > today on Buddha-L. It comes from Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosha and > bhyasha. This is a non-Theravada text and I believe the part in > capital letters is from the Abhidharmakosha while the part below is > the commentary (bhyasha) on it. > > "HUNGRY GHOSTS ALSO TAKE BIRTH FROM A WOMB." > > The word 'also' (yang) indicates that they take birth spontaneously > as well. A female Hungry Ghost (preta) once said to the Ayusman > Maha-Maugalputra: "During the night I give birth to five sons and > likewise during the day to five others which I then eat; but that > still does not satisfy me." > > Jim A. Dear Jim, How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their kamma)? Amara 3460 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:41am Subject: Re: sutta search --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear sarah, > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha) > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. Dear Robert and friends, What is sukkavipassaka? I could not find it in the Glossary. Metta, AT 3461 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks) Dear Amara, The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any one of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally, humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary here is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha. Jim >Dear Jim, > >How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in the >Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born ourside >the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to their >kamma)? > >Amara 3462 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 1:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Dear Alex, sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by insight alone'. Do you remember the recent discussion about the different categories of the finally emancipated amongst the 500 arahat monks? One of the categories are these who have eradicated all defilements through panna and have no experience of jhana as a basis for insight. I believe sukkavipassaka is a shortened version of suddha-vipassana-yanika (as opposed to samathayanika). Rob, Many thanks for your assistance..which I'm sure is correct. Mike, I think you were closer to the mark! Sarah --- <> wrote: > --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear sarah, > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it > came from but > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses > calm(samattha) > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. > > Dear Robert and friends, > > What is sukkavipassaka? I could not find it in > the Glossary. > > Metta, > AT > 3463 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 2:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search (more thanks) Dear jim, thanks for the excellent citation. There are several examples of humans in the texts who are born opapatika. It is good to know about exceptional cases- not just in this area-- as it helps us understand a few strange happenings. robert --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Amara, > > The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life > (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the > nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) > only but > the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through > any one > of the four modes of life including the womb-born. > Incidentally, > humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 > yoni-s > but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali > commentary here > is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha. > > Jim > > >Dear Jim, > > > >How would it be possible for a peta to 'give birth' since in > the > >Tipitaka they are supposed to have opapatika patisandhi (born > ourside > >the womb, full grown ghosts, just like the deva, according to > their > >kamma)? > > > >Amara > 3464 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Cybele, I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha, only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm surprised at Bruce's silence after specially requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe they're being polite by letting us go first! So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream! --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Amara and everybody > > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying > to control anything, > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma > sister. > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just > drifting away, no plans, > no security, no control, only the awareness of the > present moment. First questions: what is the present moment? What does it mean to be aware of the present moment? And > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this > journey. > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness > doesn't allows you to. Why does homelessness prevent grasping? > You just can keep going and flow along with life. > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my > consciousness. > I am opposing less and less resistance more the > years pass by. > I am more and more surrendering to the present > moment. I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I' that does this? > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find > delight in losing > control. Please explain... > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence > of day by day life > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the > ground and my eyes > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very > next step and breathing > life without choking in my own perplexitie. > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. Awareness of what? What is aware? Day by day. > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and > shadows and I walk on > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet > and content another. I > just mind to keep walking. > Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling but I'd relly like to undestand your points better. In your earlier post when you really laid out your brains in their full glory, you mentioned that 'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most concrete opportunity we have got being householders to unfold our practice...' I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is, because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and then passes away. There is nothing constant in reality. Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for sharing. Best wishes, Sarah p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give you first choice out of: a) The brain-eaters b) Friends of Rob c) The Dynamic Meditators d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) 3465 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 3:52pm Subject: speed of arising and falling of rupas Dear group, I was browsing the messages when I saw this: . > ...... > the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door > process, > where the experience is exactly the same as in through the > eye. All > this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, > since light > is only a rupa. (For a much more detailed and comprehensive > explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in > the > advanced section of ) I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas being 17 times faster than the speed of light. All rupas are arising and disappearing at an astonishingly fast rate. This is the same whether they are rupas that make up what we call a diamond or rupas involved in a nuclear reaction. Namas arise and fall away 17 times faster than this -and there is nothing more ephemeral than nama. We perhaps feel that the earth we stand on is stable. This is a true magical illusion. It is almost all space and doesn't even last for a billionth of a second (and nor does any part of "us"). If the conditions for the arising of the momentary rupas that comprise this planet earth ceased then it would vanish in an instant. Robert 3466 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:19pm Subject: Re: sutta search (more thanks) > The Majjhima commentary (MA ii 35-6) on the four modes of life > (yoni-s) explained by the Buddha in MN 12 says that the > nijjhamatanhika petas are spontaneously arisen (opapatika) only but > the remaining classes of petas can come into existence through any one > of the four modes of life including the womb-born. Incidentally, > humans can also come into existence through any one of the 4 yoni-s > but are mostly womb-born. It seems to me that the Pali commentary here > is going even further than the Abhidharmakosha-bhyasha. > > Jim Dear Jim. Thank you for the references, will ask someone to look them up, I must confess I was never much interested in these matters, but must also admit it is good to know. With the right conditions anything can happen. It would seem that death as well as rebirth in their cases must be like waking up from a dream, you could never go back to the dream but you can remember it, because it just happened. Human and animal births would probably have been brainwashed by long periods of new sensations while a new body is forming, isolated from the surroundings in a prison of a liquid world as in an egg or a womb, and then burst out to an entire different world of air and light and different kinds of sounds, as well as conventions to learn and master, not to mention foods. No doubt the preoccupation with the self and the joy of being born (which is always the first vithi citta to arise, even in hell worlds), accumulated from all the billions of billions of lifetimes of repeated rebirths, would blot out if not confuse the memory of past lives. Perhaps it also depends on what you were in your immediate last life: if it had been spent floating around as a plankton I doubt there would have been much memory of anything even during that lifetime. That and the ever present quest of pleasure through the six dvara, that keeps us tied to samsara, together with the dosa that arises when we can't have what we seek or when we are faced with things we do not like, or from which we suffer, such as birth in hell or as a peta. Dosa is indeed born of lobha, and moha is the root of all kilesa since one does not know realities as they really are, only nama and rupa. Because we don't know any better, we cling to what we are, to what we know in each present lifetime. Hope you don't mind my sharing my rambling thoughts, thanks again for all the information, as always, Amara 3467 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote: I'm > surprised at Bruce's silence after specially > requesting this speciality of the house!! i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly.... bruce 3468 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 4:40pm Subject: Re: speed of arising and falling of rupas > I was browsing the messages when I saw this: > > the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door > > process, > > where the experience is exactly the same as in through the > > eye. All > > this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, > > since light > > is only a rupa. (For a much more detailed and comprehensive > > explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in > > the > > advanced section of ) > > > I think there is nothing in the Tipitika about citta or namas > being 17 times faster than the speed of light. Browse again and you will see that I wrote, and you quoted above: 'at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light' AT LEAST being the operative words here. As the French would say, 'nuance, nuance!!' It's been a while since the last nit picking! Amara 3469 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 7:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms Friends, I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! Metta, Leonardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:01 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms > > > > Metta and karuna, as Kom recently pointed out, cannot > > > be excercised without the 'pannatti' (conventional 'beings' in > this > > > case) as aramana (whatever the citta experiences). As both are > > kusala > > > citta, sati can arise with them as well, although not satipatthana > > > because at that moment there can be no study of realities as they > > > really are, or the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities: rupa, > > citta > > > or cetasika) that appears. > > > Dear Antony, > > Metta, or friendship or 'loving kindness' is described as loving > others as you would your own children (even your enemies!); and karuna > is to help whomever is in need of assistance. These exist in all > society, and do not require the knowledge of the true nature of > realities that change, nor of impermanence or selflessness. Although > practiced with the additional knowledge of realities as they truly are > would increase the purity of the citta since there is no moha (or > wrong view that there is the self and the 'world') as an extra purity > and enhancement of kusala. At that moment there is the entity being > helped as the arammana of the citta (one could not have metta or > karuna for nibbana for example), whether feeding a stray dog or > helping a drowning ant out of a raindrop or simply passing the > condiments at the dinner table others can't reach. > > At the moment of satipatthana, the true characteristics of realities > are studied, the hardness of the salt and pepper mill is the same as > the hardness of the computer keyboard or the mouse, except for the > degrees and details, even as the 'hardness' of your cat's fur. The > temperature is only temperature, of different degrees, the sight is > typically sight, what is experienced through the eyes, although it > change at every split second. Seeing is infinitely faster, at the > moment of reading this message billions of citta had arisen and fallen > away, interposed by innumerable bhavanga (life continuum, the citta > that arises most often) and other dvara citta, and most of all > thinking. > > Again the mano-dvara (mind) is the most active of the six dvara, since > it participates in all the other dvara functions as well. Seeing > arises through the eyes then, after an extremely swift > cakkhu-vinnana-vara (eye door process of citta) some bhavanga, then > the arammana is experienced by the mind in the mind door process, > where the experience is exactly the same as in through the eye. All > this at the speed of at least 17 times the speed of light, since light > is only a rupa. (For a much more detailed and comprehensive > explanation read the chapters on the citta in the 'Summary' in the > advanced section of ) > > Therefore at the moment of metta or karuna there could be instants of > sati arising in alteration and study the paramattha dhamma arising and > falling away as they present themselves, at which moment not only > kusala is developed but instants of panna as well. When you pass the > salt, or feed the dog, not wanting anything in return, there could be > a moment exempt from lobha, dosa and moha, as well as some instants of > satipatthana or development of panna: when there is awareness of > hardness/softness, seeing, hearing, thinking, smelling, etc. of > whatever is there to be studied. > > With the right conditions (one of them being the theoretical knowledge > of what sati and panna and therefore about the citta and cetasika), > satipatthana can indeed arise anywhere no matter where we are or what > we are doing, and enhance whatever kusala is there with purity and > strength, as well as lessen whatever kilesa is there at least by > taking their place at that instant. And since the citta can only > arise one at a time, that makes one less akusala citta accumulated, > besides gradually increasing panna. > > Antony, I think you are right about my enjoying your questions, > because it makes me think of the explanations and therefore the > dhamma, all of which conditions some sati to arise as I write. By > nature I am a lazy thinker and accept things without much analysis, > except when I have to explain them, so thank you for making me reason > more in detail, I have learned a lot from all the questions from all > my dhamma friends, my thanks to everyone! > > Anumodana in your studies, > > Amara > > > 3470 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Sukkhavipassaka "One supported by bare insight." This is a commentarial term. It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized only by or from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala. See: Vis. Magg. XVIII. "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the result of tranquility meditation. There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual either, as it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the practitioner. Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: <<>> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > wrote: > > Dear sarah, > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came from but > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses calm(samattha) > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. > > Dear Robert and friends, > > What is sukkavipassaka? I could not find it in the Glossary. > > Metta, > AT > 3471 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 8:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Dear venerable Dhammapiyo, Thanks for the clarification. Exactly so: it is deep insight, not mere intellectual understanding, culminating in Nibbana. At the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of mundane jhana. Robert --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Sukkhavipassaka > > "One supported by bare insight." > > This is a commentarial term. > > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has > realized only by or > from Vipassana support. This can also include the > Ariyapuggala. > > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII. > > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not > necessarily the result > of tranquility meditation. > > There is no misconception to be had this is merely > intellectual either, as > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the > practitioner. > > Hope this helps. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <<>> > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search > > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > wrote: > > > Dear sarah, > > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came > from but > > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses > calm(samattha) > > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. > > > > Dear Robert and friends, > > > > What is sukkavipassaka? I could not find it in the > Glossary. > > > > Metta, > > AT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3472 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 9:19pm Subject: Re: sutta search > At > the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the > level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the > sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short > moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated > with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the > same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of > mundane jhana. > Robert > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > > Sukkhavipassaka > > > > "One supported by bare insight." > > > > This is a commentarial term. > > > > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has > > realized only by or > > from Vipassana support. This can also include the > > Ariyapuggala. > > > > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII. > > > > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not > > necessarily the result > > of tranquility meditation. > > > > There is no misconception to be had this is merely > > intellectual either, as > > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the > > practitioner. Venerable sir, Robert, According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the lowest vipassana- nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular: the nama-rupa- paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of panna who has accumulated the study of realities to the point where it automatically produces nana the complete separation of the rupa from the nama. Normally everything happens so fast that the mano dvara never appears to anyone, even those who have reached the highest jhana without developing vipassana would never experience the mano dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound, smell, taste or body sense contact of any kind. Darker than dark. At the moment the most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of knowledge of things as they really are, the rupa appears for the first time as such, just visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes, no one really in there. The same for the other sense objects, depending on what was the object of that first nana, whether it happened as smell or whatever. Then the clear experience of the mano dvara, for the first time ever in the person's life. So spectacular and true, and lasting not just for a flash but long enough to be unmistakable and the knowledge never to be questioned or cause uncertainty again, that the sanna of the true characteristics of realities could BEGIN. The memory of this first nana would help the person realize that these are the true characteristics of things, as the world resumes its extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping everything together once again as the self and the world except at the occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as satipatthana continues to develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that precedes the magga nana of the sotapanna. Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a summary of part of the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of (Please check details before nit-picking). Venerable sir, if there are any mistakes, please let me know, Amara 3473 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:03pm Subject: Re: sutta search Dear Sarah, Thank you for the explanation. I must confess that in the last few weeks, I barely have time for studying because of my project at work. Last night, I was at the office until 10:00 for example. It's good to know that sati may arise anytime, at home or at work. Metta, Alex --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > sukkavipassaka refers to those who are 'liberated by > insight alone'. 3474 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: sutta search Dear Bhante D., Thank you for the helpful explanation. With appreciation, Alex ======= --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Sukkhavipassaka > > "One supported by bare insight." > > This is a commentarial term. > > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has realized only by or > from Vipassana support. This can also include the Ariyapuggala. > > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII. > > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not necessarily the result > of tranquility meditation. > > There is no misconception to be had this is merely intellectual either, as > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the practitioner. > > Hope this helps. 3475 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search amara wrote: > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions... LOL! bruce 3476 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:23pm Subject: Appreciation Dear Bhante and friends, Like Leonardo, I just love this list with mucho mucho lobha. Thank you. Metta, Alex 3477 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Re: sutta search > LOL! > > bruce Hi! and bye for the weekend, my friends, =^_^= _/\_ Amara 3478 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms Hi Leonardo, Me, too! Metta and Love, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leonardo Neves" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: May there STILL be joy in Peta realms > Friends, > > I simply love (lobha :-) this list ! > > Metta, > Leonardo > > 3479 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 15, 2001 11:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Bruce Don't try to justify yourself; you are an unreliable, chauvinist male and you just let me down! :-( Shame on you!!! Cybele >From: bruce >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in >a silver plate >Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:31:57 +0900 > >At 15:48 2001/02/15 +0800, sarah wrote: >I'm > > surprised at Bruce's silence after specially > > requesting this speciality of the house!! > > >i'm having a bit of computer dukkha, as well as a busy couple weeks at >school as the term winds up....i'll be back on track shortly.... > >bruce > > > 3480 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? ----- Original Message ----- > > > Dear Num, > > Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and > what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course. First > I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali > version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the > Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the > foundation. My provisory thoughts on the text as translated > (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you > gave me, > tra.htm>, is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am > studying. For example when it says towards the beginning, > > > 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from > eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they > have form or do not > have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; > or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or > that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to > the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this > innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become > liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been > liberated,' > > Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the > people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of > wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself. > There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the Diamond Sutra.... From the Connected Discourses, Book 1 V.10 Vajira Sutta... Mara speaking... ...."By whom has this being been created? Where is the maker of the being? Where has the being arisen? Where does the being cease?" The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies.... "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations" Here no being is found. "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, There is the convention 'a being.' "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute point of view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the Tipitaka. Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute realities. I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point. But I do not think it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally of course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated." Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem to have of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a Sutra or even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion. BTW this is my first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who post. This is an wonderful group of beings :) With Metta...Ray 3481 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Ray, --- Ray Hendrickson wrote: > Mara speaking... > ...."By whom has this being been created? > Where is the maker of the being? > Where has the being arisen? > Where does the being cease?" > > The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies.... > > "Why now do you assume 'a being'? > Mara, is that your speculative view? > This is a heap of sheer formations" > Here no being is found. > > "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, > The word 'chariot' is used, > So, when the aggregates exist, > There is the convention 'a being.' > > "It's only suffering that comes to be, > Suffering that stands and falls away. > Nothing but suffering comes to be, > Nothing but suffering ceases." Nice citation, Ray! Welcome to the list, from one of its Lesser Heaps, mike 3482 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Sarah >Dear Cybele, > >I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart from >Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in lobha, >only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm >surprised at Bruce's silence after specially >requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe >they're being polite by letting us go first! You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but I think the guys did not find me very palatable for their tastes and they skipped a meal scarsely satisfactory. They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and I am pretty emotional to distinguish another. Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much succulent for them. Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition, disgraceful.... ;-) Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I should be grateful indeed but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-))) > >So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream! I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion for how much they are detached: I prefer keep my energies. Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual approach, I appreciate your warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-))) Love and respect Cybele >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > Dear Amara and everybody > > > > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying > > to control anything, > > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma > > sister. > > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just > > drifting away, no plans, > > no security, no control, only the awareness of the > > present moment. > >First questions: what is the present moment? What does >it mean to be aware of the present moment? > >And > > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this > > journey. > > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness > > doesn't allows you to. > >Why does homelessness prevent grasping? > > > You just can keep going and flow along with life. > > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my > > consciousness. > > I am opposing less and less resistance more the > > years pass by. > > I am more and more surrendering to the present > > moment. > >I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean >to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I' >that does this? > > > You are speaking with a self/non self who just find > > delight in losing > > control. > >Please explain... > > > I am searching for nothing but the small coherence > > of day by day life > > experience, no high flights...just my feets on the > > ground and my eyes > > looking ahead in the path, minding only the very > > next step and breathing > > life without choking in my own perplexitie. > > Simply drinking my gulp of awareness. > >Awareness of what? What is aware? > >Day by day. > > My life as everybody's else is entwined in light and > > shadows and I walk on > > by full of doubts and restlessness one day as quiet > > and content another. I > > just mind to keep walking. > > >Cybele, I'm not nibbling just for the sake of nibbling >but I'd relly like to undestand your points better. > >In your earlier post when you really laid out your >brains in their full glory, you mentioned that >'constant mindfulness in daily life is the most >concrete opportunity we have got being householders to >unfold our practice...' > >I really wonder what this constant mindfulness is, >because sati (awareness or mindfulness) just arises >for a split second second, is aware of a reality, and >then passes away. There is nothing constant in >reality. > >Please don't let me deter you from offering more brain >courses, but please don't mind if I come and have a >few nibbles and bigger mouthfuls too! Thanks for >sharing. > >Best wishes, >Sarah > >p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give >you first choice out of: >a) The brain-eaters >b) Vriends of Rob >c) The Dynamic Meditators >d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) > 3483 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 5:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Sarah You wrote: >So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream! I am glad you can enjoy your bit, later I will satisfy your appetite promise. Now I am fainting over the keyboard. However you must be a gourmet! ;-) >p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give >you first choice out of: >a) The brain-eaters >b) Friends of Rob >c) The Dynamic Meditators >d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) I would choose dynamic meditators as good auspicious! LOve Cybele 3484 From: Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:21am Subject: Re: sutta search Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking. Amara I hope you post a reports of the big party you're going to attend. 'we promise to leave all nits alone'. antony --- bruce wrote: > amara wrote: > > > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions... > > LOL! > > bruce 3485 From: Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:34am Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? Ray wrote: >first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who >post. This is an wonderful group of beings :) With Metta...Ray I wrote: According to the Diammond Sutra you can only say 'wonderful group of beings' because there is no group of beings' No beings here Ray, just a bunch of formations pounding the keyboard formation. It is good to hear from you, especially on such a subject as the Diamond Sutra. I like it myself, but don't tell anyone will you? antony --- "Ray Hendrickson" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Dear Num, > > > > Each person's accumulation affects the way one understands things, and > > what I find incongruous might seem logical to others of course. First > > I would like to look at the corresponding Subhuti sutta in the Pali > > version that Jim mentioned, (but which I am sure will not resemble the > > Sanskrit counterpart) if I can find it, this Saturday at the > > foundation. My provisory thoughts on the text as translated > > (providing the translations are correct, of course) in the link you > > gave me, > > > tra.htm>, is that there are discrepancies with the Tipitaka that I am > > studying. For example when it says towards the beginning, > > > > > > 'However many species of living beings there are--whether born from > > eggs, from the womb, from moisture, or spontaneously; whether they > > have form or do not > > have form; whether they have perceptions or do not have perceptions; > > or whether it cannot be said of them that they have perceptions or > > that they do not have perceptions, we must lead all these beings to > > the ultimate nirvana so that they can be liberated. And when this > > innumerable, immeasurable, infinite number of beings has become > > liberated, we do not, in truth, think that a single being has been > > liberated,' > > > > Which negates all the staggering times the Tipitaka recounted all the > > people, bhikkhu, laymen, deva and brahma attained different levels of > > wisdom, many as proclaimed by the Buddha himself. > > > > There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the Diamond > Sutra.... > From the Connected Discourses, Book 1 V.10 Vajira Sutta... > > Mara speaking... > ...."By whom has this being been created? > Where is the maker of the being? > Where has the being arisen? > Where does the being cease?" > > The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies.... > > "Why now do you assume 'a being'? > Mara, is that your speculative view? > This is a heap of sheer formations" > Here no being is found. > > "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, > The word 'chariot' is used, > So, when the aggregates exist, > There is the convention 'a being.' > > "It's only suffering that comes to be, > Suffering that stands and falls away. > Nothing but suffering comes to be, > Nothing but suffering ceases." > > So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute point of > view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the Tipitaka. > Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute realities. > I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point. But I do not think > it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally of > course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can > be liberated." Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem to have > of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a Sutra or > even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion. BTW this is my > first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who post. This > is an wonderful group of beings :) With Metta...Ray 3486 From: m. nease Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 10:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Cybele and Sarah, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Sarah > > >Dear Cybele, > > > >I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart > from > >Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in > lobha, > >only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm > >surprised at Bruce's silence after specially > >requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe > >they're being polite by letting us go first! > You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but > I think the guys did > not find me very palatable for their tastes and they > skipped a meal scarsely > satisfactory. I suspect other motives--the fear of a lethal dose of lobha, perhaps--of course, I can only speak for myself... > They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and > I am pretty emotional > to distinguish another. > Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much > succulent for them. > Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition, > disgraceful.... ;-) > Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I > should be grateful indeed > but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-))) > > > So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream! > > I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion > for how much they are > detached: I prefer keep my energies. You may find more nibblers yet... > Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual > approach, I appreciate your > warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-))) Stay warm! mike 3487 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 2:53pm Subject: Nit-picking Dear Antony, Cybele, (later Robert & Amara) another choice: > p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give > you first choice out of: > a) The brain-eaters > b) Friends of Rob > c) The Dynamic Meditators > d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) > e) The Nit-pickers Antony said: 'Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking.' Antony, you're quite a trouble-maker I can see! How many nits can a nit-picker pick? Maybe we can open it up for competition. However, only a nit-picker can say when a nit-picker is picking nits rather than errors or pointing out nits.. Actually, I can say that Amara is very modest- in fact she can pick nits as well as any of us in her quest for the truth.. (ask Kom!) Back to more serious nit-picking.. Amara & Robert, Is it really going to help us to know just how fast and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it doesn't make any difference to me once i know in theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes, rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing now and can be the object of awareness. This is more amazing than comparing them to the speed of light. However, I might just add that I think any nit-picking on the details on the list is very healthy when it's done in order to help us all understand what is written in the Tipitaka better. Personally I welcome it (even if a little mana complains at the time).... Best nit-picking, Sarah 3488 From: cybele chiodi Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Mike Reply below: >Dear Cybele and Sarah, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah > > > > >Dear Cybele, > > > > > >I guess the guys aren't too hungry because apart > > from > > >Gayan who took a big mouthful and was lost in > > lobha, > > >only Amara and I have been nibbling away. I'm > > >surprised at Bruce's silence after specially > > >requesting this speciality of the house!! maybe > > >they're being polite by letting us go first! > > > You are as usual very kind and encouraging Sarah but > > I think the guys did > > not find me very palatable for their tastes and they > > skipped a meal scarsely > > satisfactory. > >I suspect other motives--the fear of a lethal dose of >lobha, perhaps--of course, I can only speak for >myself... Dear Mike at least a proper seducteur in this list, I was almost desperating. You are rescuing my self-esteem. Sarah don't bite on my neck for the 'self' admission... :-)))) > > > They are pretty cerebral as labelling a tendence and > > I am pretty emotional > > to distinguish another. > > Therefore I suppose my brains are not very much > > succulent for them. > > Too much overwhelming feelings and no erudition, > > disgraceful.... ;-) > > Bruce has betrayed me and torn my ego, I suppose I > > should be grateful indeed > > but I feel like punching his nose instead. ;-))) > > > > > So, I'll keep nibbling until you scream! > > > > I suppose they would let me scream till exhaustion > > for how much they are > > detached: I prefer keep my energies. > >You may find more nibblers yet... Well I am haves pulpy brains and not only the brains. > > > Thanks for trying to put up with my unusual > > approach, I appreciate your > > warmth; I was freezing out in the limbo. :-))) > >Stay warm! > >mike > Thanks Mike you are a good 'heater', I mean your friendliness! Cybele 3489 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Ray, Thank you for joining us and contributing too. It's good to hear that you're enjoying the list. > From the Connected Discourses, Book 1 V.10 Vajira > Sutta... > > Mara speaking... > ...."By whom has this being been created? > Where is the maker of the being? > Where has the being arisen? > Where does the being cease?" > > The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies.... > > "Why now do you assume 'a being'? > Mara, is that your speculative view? > This is a heap of sheer formations" > Here no being is found. > > "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, > The word 'chariot' is used, > So, when the aggregates exist, > There is the convention 'a being.' > > "It's only suffering that comes to be, > Suffering that stands and falls away. > Nothing but suffering comes to be, > Nothing but suffering ceases." > I re-read the earlier passage from the Diamond Sutra and this one from Samyutta Nikaya many times....honestly speaking, the latter is very, very clear to me and I still can't make sense of the former.. > So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from > an absolute point of > view, I think it can be seen to fall within the > teachings of the Tipitaka. > Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas > or absolute realities. > I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this > point. But I do not think > it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking > conventionally of > course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate > nirvana so that they can > be liberated." Personally I think this habit > Mahayana Sutras seem to have > of moving from absolute to conventional point of > views within a Sutra or > even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of > confusion. perhaps this is my difficulty.... I don't know! BTW this is my > first post on this list, and I just want to thank > all those who post. This > is an wonderful group of beings :) With Metta...Ray many thanks for your efforts...very useful and interesting. Num is going to have a lot of catching up to do when he returns, but then that is the price these days for having an exotic holiday! Best regards, Sarah p.s. Leonardo, we forgot to sugggest Num call on you in Brazil, too! 3490 From: Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 4:22pm Subject: Re: Nit-picking Better to be a nit picker than just a nit better to be a wit than a nit-wit Hey this week the universe let me lend two books the Vissudhimagga, at last at last and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories behind the verses, unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the stories where they might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the opportune I'm sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I mean my friends here- will assist in the location spotting exercise. The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa. antony (sorry I'm just avoiding housework by reading the list) --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Antony, Cybele, (later Robert & Amara) > > another choice: > > > p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll give > > you first choice out of: > > a) The brain-eaters > > b) Friends of Rob > > c) The Dynamic Meditators > > d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) > > > e) The Nit-pickers > > Antony said: 'Amara also said to check details before > 'nit picking' then there > would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have > any fun picking.' > > Antony, you're quite a trouble-maker I can see! How > many nits can a nit-picker pick? Maybe we can open it > up for competition. > > However, only a nit-picker can say when a nit-picker > is picking nits rather than errors or pointing out > nits.. > > Actually, I can say that Amara is very modest- in fact > she can pick nits as well as any of us in her quest > for the truth.. (ask Kom!) > > Back to more serious nit-picking.. > Amara & Robert, > > Is it really going to help us to know just how fast > and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it > doesn't make any difference to me once i know in > theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes, > rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing > now and can be the object of awareness. This is more > amazing than comparing them to the speed of light. > > However, I might just add that I think any nit-picking > on the details on the list is very healthy when it's > done in order to help us all understand what is > written in the Tipitaka better. Personally I welcome > it (even if a little mana complains at the time).... > > Best nit-picking, > Sarah > 3491 From: teng kee ong Date: Fri Feb 16, 2001 7:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search > Dear venerable Dhammapiyo, > Thanks for the clarification. Exactly so: it is deep insight, > not mere intellectual understanding, culminating in Nibbana. At > the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is samadhi at the > level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also for the > sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for those short > moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is always associated > with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It is not the > same as the type of samadhi associated with the development of > mundane jhana. > Robert > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > > Sukkhavipassaka > > > > "One supported by bare insight." > > > > This is a commentarial term. > > > > It means that a meditator who has not achieved jhana has > > realized only by or > > from Vipassana support. This can also include the > > Ariyapuggala. > > > > See: Vis. Magg. XVIII. > > > > "Sukkha" means "dry". This means the insight is not > > necessarily the result > > of tranquility meditation. > > > > There is no misconception to be had this is merely > > intellectual either, as > > it produces piti and sam.vega (a sense of urgency) in the > > practitioner. > > > > Hope this helps. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <<>> > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 9:11 AM > > Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search > > > > > > > --- Robert Kirkpatrick > > > wrote: > > > > Dear sarah, > > > > i just saw this post. i don't know which sutta it came > > from but > > > > it seems to be showing the path of one who uses > > calm(samattha) > > > > as a vehicle. ie. not sukkavipassaka. > > > > > > Dear Robert and friends, > > > > > > What is sukkavipassaka? I could not find it in the > > Glossary. > > > > > > Metta, > > > AT > > > > > >Dear Robert, Com. mean sukkavipassaka have mundane jhana after insight but not at the same time.Or in the last period of sasana also means any arahant who attain fruition but without iddhi.It is too long subject to talk in here. From Teng Kee > > > 3492 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 17, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Sukkha-vipassaka Teng-kee (I hope I have got your name right) In reply to Robert's post on sukkhavipassaka - > > Exactly so: it is > deep insight, > > not mere intellectual understanding, culminating > in Nibbana. At > > the moment of nibbana, for a flash, there is > samadhi at the > > level of jhana, even for the sukkavipassaka. Also > for the > > sukkavipassaka during actual vipassana nana , for > those short > > moments, samadhi is very powerful. But it is > always associated > > with samma-samadhi of the eightfactored path . It > is not the > > same as the type of samadhi associated with the > development of > > mundane jhana. you wrote - > Com. mean sukkavipassaka have mundane jhana after > insight but not at the same time.Or in the last > period of sasana also means any arahant who attain > fruition but without iddhi.It is too long subject to > talk in here. > From Teng Kee This appetising little tidbit has whetted my appetite for more. While it is no doubt too detailed an area to explain in full, could you please give us a little more detail to ponder on, or perhpas some references to chase up? Thanks Jon 3493 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 1:44pm Subject: Rob news Dear All We found out yesterday that Robert has decided to take a complete break from the list for a while. In a lengthy telephone chat with him last night, we urged him to reconsider and expressed our hope that his absence will be a very temporary one. As most of you know, Rob is a co-founder and honorary moderator or this list. His reasons, which he discussed in detail with us, are largely personal. He assured us he plans to return after a break. We know you will be sorry to hear this too, but we hope that during his absence you will continue to share views as always so that we can all continue to benefit from the discussion. Sarah & Jonothan 3494 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 4:23pm Subject: Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear All, An analysis of concepts. Ch. VIII of the Adhidhammattha Sangaha - in translation as ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (CMA) - contains a detailed analysis of concepts. This section is included because, as mentioned in an earlier post in this series, concepts are included in the abhidhamma by the treatise ‘Puggala-pannatti’. Concepts are twofold (CMA #29 and Guide to #29): Concept as ‘that which is made known’; these are called ‘meaning concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-meanings’ (attha-pannatti), and Concept as ‘that which makes known’: these are called ‘name concepts’ or ‘concepts-as-names’ (nama-pannatti). Meaning concepts ‘Meaning-concept’ refers to the meaning conveyed by a concept. For example, the notion of a four-legged, furry domestic animal is the meaning-concept of the term ‘dog’. [CMA Guide to #29] Name-concepts ‘Name-concept’ is a name or designation that conveys a meaning. For example, the designation and idea ‘dog’ is the name-concept which corresponds to the meaning-concept given in the previous example. [CMA Guide to #29] Each of these 2 kinds of concepts can be further classified as follows There are 6 kinds of meaning concepts (CMA Guide to #30) - 1. Concepts which correspond to the form of things (eg, land, mountain) 2. Concepts which correspond to a collection or group of things (house, chariot, village) 3. Concepts which correspond to a locality or direction (east, west etc) 4, Concepts which correspond to periods or units of time (morning, noon, week etc) 5. Concepts which correspond to spatial regions void of perceptible matter (well, cave etc) 6. Concepts which correspond to the mental sign gained by meditative development (called nimitta-pannati) CMA #30 says: "All such different things, though they do not exist in the ultimate sense, become objects of consciousness in the form of shadows of (ultimate) things. They are called concepts because they are thought of … and expressed … on account of … this or that mode. This kind of concept is so called because it is made known." There are also 6 kinds of name-concepts (CMA #31 & Guide to #31) - 1. A (direct) concept of the real. This refers to a concept that designates a reality, eg. ‘rupa’, ‘feeling’. 2. A (direct) concept of the unreal. This refers to a term that conveys the meaning of a thing that is a conventional entity, not an ultimate reality, eg. ‘land’ and ‘mountain’. 3. A concept of the unreal by means of the real. In the term ‘possessor of the sixfold direct knowledge’, the direct knowledge are ultimately real but the ‘possessor’ is a mental construction. 4. A concept of the real by means of the unreal. In the term ‘woman’s voice’, the sound of the voice ultimately exists but not the woman. 5. A concept of the real by means of the real. In the term ‘eye-consciousness’, both the eye-sensitivity and the consciousness dependent on it exist in an ultimate sense. 6. A concept of the unreal by means of the unreal. In the term ‘king’s son’, neither the king nor the son ultimately exist. Concepts are the means by which meaning is understood- In the Summary section (CMA #32) it is explained: "By following the sound of speech through the process of ear-consciousness, and then by means of the concept conceived by (the process in the) mind-door that subsequently arises, meanings are understood. These concepts should be understood as fashioned by worldly convention." To summarise: Although concepts are not real and cannot be the object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more about them, so that they are not taken for realities. Jon 3495 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking Dear Antony, --- wrote: > Better to be a nit picker than just a nit > > better to be a wit than a nit-wit Well, you're certainly the list-wit! > > Hey this week the universe let me lend two books > > the Vissudhimagga, at last at last Was the universe a library in Sydney? If you want to buy it, the BPS (Buddhist Publication Society) is the place to order. > > and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories > behind the verses, > unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the > stories where they > might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the > opportune I'm > sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I > mean my friends here- > will assist in the location spotting exercise. I'll leave the nit-picking and try to help w/the facts. The Dhammapada is the second book of the Khuddaka-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. There is a really wonderful commentary in several volumes (I have the PTS editions). The commentary is basically a collection of stories, of which about 60 are shared with the Jataka Comm. They introduce and explain the verses of the Dhammapada. The comm is anonymous but apparently composed in Sri Lanka (date unknown I think). Very easy bedtime reading. I'm sure the stories you have w/yr Pali-Eng Dhammapada will be short summaries of these Dhp Comm. stories. For example, I have a Dhp translated by Narada Thera w/just such short stories. > > The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa. Go Antony too, and let us know of anything of special interest or difficulty. (Jim, pls correct me if any of my facts above are not right as always!) Sarah p.s for the frivolous only: > (sorry I'm just avoiding housework by reading the > list) > > > another choice: > > > > > p.s if we ever have to rename this group, I'll > give > > > you first choice out of: > > > a) The brain-eaters > > > b) Friends of Rob > > > c) The Dynamic Meditators > > > d) The dhamma salon (thanks Joe) > > e) The Nit-pickers f) The Housework Avoiders 3496 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 5:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Dear Alex, --- <> wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for the explanation. I must confess > that in the last > few weeks, I barely have time for studying because > of my project at > work. Last night, I was at the office until 10:00 > for example. > > It's good to know that sati may arise anytime, at > home or at > work. Yes, it gives a great sense of freedom (to me). Even when we are exhausted or really busy, sati (of satipatthana) can arise and will arise when there has been some panna (understanding) developed. There's no need to wait for another occasion or to resent the time at work because there can be confidence that anytime is the right time. We've also just had a very busy and rather difficult few days. It's been one thing after another, starting with the death of a closefriend of Jonothan's (known for 45yrs) a couple of days ago. We never know what will happen next by conditions, but still there are many opportunities in a day for the brahmaviharas (metta etc) as Amara pointed out so well, for generosity and all kinds of kusala (wholesomeness) including satipatthana. It's good to know you're still checking in and occasionally keeping in touch even though you're so busy. Thanks for this. Best wishes, Sarah 3497 From: selamat Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:05pm Subject: Dear all, We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.: 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) Any informations where to buy would be appreciated. anumodana selamat rodjali dhamma study group bogor 3498 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 9:38pm Subject: English translations of texts Dear Selamat, --- selamat wrote: > Dear all, > We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.: > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > Any informations where to buy would be appreciated. > I know these books haven't been translated by the Pali Text Society yet and I doubt they've been translated in full by any other group, but someone else may know more! Out of interest, does your group use English texts and discuss in English or Indonesian? Have any texts been translated into Indonesian? Do you work through the texts in a systematic order? Thanks in advance if you have time to let us know. > anumodana > selamat rodjali > dhamma study group bogor anumodana also, Sarah p.s. remember subject headings, everyone! 3499 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:05pm Subject: Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Dear Ray, A warm welcome to you and your sutta as well as the fine first comments! I'm very glad you joined us despite our lousy language (filled with nits and all sorts of parasites), and appparent cannibalism (brain boiling and nibbling)!!! Underneath this worse-than-a-pest-infested-batty-vampire facade we're a pretty decent set (I think!) who are happy to have you with us, Amara > There is also support within the Tipitaka for the above from the Diamond > Sutra.... > From the Connected Discourses, Book 1 V.10 Vajira Sutta... > > Mara speaking... > ...."By whom has this being been created? > Where is the maker of the being? > Where has the being arisen? > Where does the being cease?" > > The Bhikkhuni Vajira replies.... > > "Why now do you assume 'a being'? > Mara, is that your speculative view? > This is a heap of sheer formations" > Here no being is found. > > "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, > The word 'chariot' is used, > So, when the aggregates exist, > There is the convention 'a being.' > > "It's only suffering that comes to be, > Suffering that stands and falls away. > Nothing but suffering comes to be, > Nothing but suffering ceases." > > So if we take the Diamond Sutra to be talking from an absolute point of > view, I think it can be seen to fall within the teachings of the Tipitaka. > Being is certainly not one of the paramattha dhammas or absolute realities. > I think that is what the Sutta is saying at this point. But I do not think > it says anywhere in the Tipitaka that "we (speaking conventionally of > course) must lead all these beings to the ultimate nirvana so that they can > be liberated." Personally I think this habit Mahayana Sutras seem to have > of moving from absolute to conventional point of views within a Sutra or > even a paragraph of a Sutra, causes a lot of confusion. BTW this is my > first post on this list, and I just want to thank all those who post. This > is an wonderful group of beings :) With Metta...Ray 3500 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:07pm Subject: Re: sutta search --- <> wrote: > Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there > would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking. Dear Antony, Pick away, then, constructive nit picking could get rid of misunderstandings, but I think one should check the details before so one won't be pulling out the hairs instead of some imaginary nits! Amara 3501 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:17pm Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? > It is good to hear from you, especially on such a subject as the > Diamond Sutra. I like it myself, but don't tell anyone will you? Dear Antony, So do I, except I rather like it for esthetic reasons instead of logical ones. I think it makes very nice poetry and with my densely accumulated lobha I have a soft spot for poetic as well as other arts. I remember having an argument with an English lit. professor who maintained that poetry exalting nature for itself began with Wordsworth et al; all other previous nature poetry (he cited Roman and Greek poets) were about humans exploiting nature (i.e. making gardens and orchards out of it). I told him that one of the most beautiful poems about nature is in the Tipitaka, more precisely in the Thera Gatha, where Maha Kassapa (whose city is populated 'half by his relatives and the other half by his friends' spoke of why he lived alone in the mountains, although he came down daily to teach everyone) spoke of the wonders of the wilderness, 2500+ years ago. A little excerpt: Those upland glades delightful to the soul, Where the kareri spreads its wildering wreaths, Where sound the trumpet-calls of elephants: Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. Those rocky heights with hue of dark blue clouds, Where lies embosomed many a shining tarn Of crystal-clear, cool waters, and whose slopes The "herds of Indra' cover and bedeck: Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. Like serried battlements of blue-black cloud, Like pinnacles on stately castle built, Re-echoing to the cries of jungle folk: Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. Fair uplands rain-refreshed, and resonant With crested creatures' cries antiphonal, Lone heights where silent Rishis oft resort: Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. (...) (This ends with a beautiful blend of truth and beauty of course... You can read the rest of it in Thera Theri Gatha5: Maha Kassapa, in the intermediate section of ) And this is just a translation (not mine but Davis'!)... What esthetic perfection would this be in the original Pali?... One of those moments when I really envy Jim!!! Amara 3502 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:20pm Subject: Re: Nit-picking > Amara & Robert, > > Is it really going to help us to know just how fast > and ephemeral those namas and rupas are? Personally it > doesn't make any difference to me once i know in > theory that they're FAST. For all practical purposes, > rupas such as visible object or hardness are appearing > now and can be the object of awareness. This is more > amazing than comparing them to the speed of light. Sarah, I don't think the Buddha would have mentioned this fact if he did not think it would be useful for at least some of us to know that the nama is 17 times faster than any rupa. As I said, I have unlimitted confidence in his teachings. Amara 3503 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:24pm Subject: Re: Nit-picking > Hey this week the universe let me lend two books > > the Vissudhimagga, at last at last > > and a pali/english Dhammapada with the stories behind the verses, > unfortunatley it doesn't make reference to the stories where they > might be in the tripitaka or elsewhere but when the opportune I'm > sure the nitpickers here- oops, freudian slip, I mean my friends here- > will assist in the location spotting exercise. > > The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa. Dear Antony, I wish I could pick your brain instead, and experience the books vicariously through you! Hope you'll share some views with us, looking forward to reading your posts as always, Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3504 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: Rob news > We found out yesterday that Robert has decided to take > a complete break from the list for a while. Dear Moderators, I shall certainly miss his wide knowledge of the scriptures as well as the detailed explanations of the texts, and look forward to his return, Amara 3505 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 11:59pm Subject: Re: sutta search > We've also just had a very busy and rather difficult > few days. It's been one thing after another, starting > with the death of a closefriend of Jonothan's (known > for 45yrs) a couple of days ago. > > We never know what will happen next by conditions, but > still there are many opportunities in a day for the > brahmaviharas (metta etc) as Amara pointed out so > well, for generosity and all kinds of kusala > (wholesomeness) including satipatthana. Dear friends, Sincere condolences for your loss, sometimes friends are really special because we choose them and are not just born closely related. Still the dhamma tells us that the more attachment we have the more dukkha will come of it, therefore we are often better prepared than most since from the moment we are born we are on our way to death. And you both have had the incredible opportunity to study the dhamma and accumulate knowledge and kusala for the future, and to share it as well as you could along the way, even in moments of such sorrow, which is a beautiful thing. Anumodana in all your kusala and especially in your studies, despite your sad loss, Amara 3506 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 1:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking Dear Sarah and others, >I'll leave the nit-picking and try to help w/the >facts. The Dhammapada is the second book of the >Khuddaka-nikaya of the Sutta-pitaka. There is a really >wonderful commentary in several volumes (I have the >PTS editions). The commentary is basically a >collection of stories, of which about 60 are shared >with the Jataka Comm. They introduce and explain the >verses of the Dhammapada. The comm is anonymous but >apparently composed in Sri Lanka (date unknown I >think). Very easy bedtime reading. > >I'm sure the stories you have w/yr Pali-Eng Dhammapada >will be short summaries of these Dhp Comm. stories. >For example, I have a Dhp translated by Narada Thera >w/just such short stories. >> >> The Vissudhi is such a great book, go Bhuddagosa. > >Go Antony too, and let us know of anything of special >interest or difficulty. > >(Jim, pls correct me if any of my facts above are not >right as always!) As to the authorship of the Dhp commentary, Buddhaghosa (as translator) is the name usually ascribed to the work according to DPPN and the CPD gives the same name. In Burlingame's transl. it is only the stories and verses that are translated -- leaving out the word-by-word commentary on each of the verses. Many of the works in the Khuddakanikaya are in verses only and one has to go to the commentaries to read the stories that go with them. In your response to Selamat about the availability of English translations of certain texts in the Tipitaka, a part translation of the Apadana is in the works acc. to the PTS current projects page as follows: "17. Therii-Apadaana, edition and translation by Dr Sally Cutler." Acc. to U Ko Lay's A Guide to Tipitaka, the Apadaana is divided into two main parts: 1. Thera-Apadaana which contains the verses of the Buddha, 41 Paccekabuddhas, and 559 arahats. 2. Therii-Apadaana which contains the verses of 40 female arahats. Again, one has to go the Apadana commentary to read the biographical stories that go with the verses. Best wishes, Jim A. 3507 From: Date: Sun Feb 18, 2001 8:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - > To summarise: > Although concepts are not real and cannot be the > object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more > about them, so that they are not taken for realities. > ================================ Is it the actual concepts, themselves, that cannot be the objects of satipatthana, or is it their non-existent referents? Don't concepts/ideas come under the mental qualities section of the Satipatthana Sutta? It seems to me, informally, that a concept/idea is an object of discernment via the mental-sense gate in the same way that a sound is an object via the hearing-sense gate. I understand concepts arising as constructed objects, but so are all other conditioned dhammas. In what sense is a concept, itself, and not its supposed referent, any less real than a sound? Both are objects of discernment (vi~n~nana), and both are impersonal, impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and lacking in independent existence. Is there anything truly "real" in the sense of being unconditioned and transcending change and time other than nibbana? Aren't all conditions like foam, but nibbana real (santo sp?)? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3508 From: Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:01am Subject: English translations > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation of the Yamaka and its commentray: Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U Narada [of Rangoon]. Derek. 3509 From: Ray Hendrickson Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 3:52am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? I just wanted to thank everyone for the warm welcome. I am going through the Abhidhamma for Daily Life and will then move to the Manual of Abhidhamma. This is my second time through and I am sure I will have many questions for the group. The first time through pretty much left me over whelmed :) I will try not to nibble too much :) Thanks again everyone...Ray > Dear Ray, > > A warm welcome to you and your sutta as well as the fine first > comments! I'm very glad you joined us despite our lousy language > (filled with nits and all sorts of parasites), and appparent > cannibalism (brain boiling and nibbling)!!! Underneath this > worse-than-a-pest-infested-batty-vampire facade we're a pretty decent > set (I think!) who are happy to have you with us, > > Amara 3510 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 6:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations Hello Derek, >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation >of the Yamaka and its commentray: > >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U >Narada [of Rangoon]. > >Derek. Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any time soon. Welcome to the group! Best wishes, Jim A. 3511 From: Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:48am Subject: Re: sutta search Nit picking in a positive manner can remove doubt and generate a clearer understanding. It can also cause a few formations to arise in the 'picked' for us to practice with. I also find it interesting to note the 'picker' is the picker skillfully picking or are they themselves the victim, as it were, of their own formations. I always think of Buddhas story of the man on the horse zooming by and the pedestrian calls out where are you going? And the rider says I don't know! Ask the horse!!! I think thats how it goes anyway. I don't think this list suffers from anyh unskillful picking, not in my short time here anyway. If anyone has felt 'picked' by anything I type I apoligise I have not intended for that outcome to be the case. I guess when you type your thoughts on a list or message board you do open yourself up to 'nit pickers' and the like. I have left many boards and lists due to the wrong motivation of the majority of posters. Go and look at the Yahoo! Buddhism message board for example. Here I feel that the regular posters are wanting to learn and to share. That is skillful in my opinion. I have read a quote from Kung Fu Tsu (Confucious) who says that we should be glad that there are those who would set us straight and we should associate with them and not associate with those who would let us carry on in a reckless manner. I thank any of you who have picked nits from my posts. I am sure I am in need of having them picked. antony the nitfull --- "Amara" wrote: > --- <> wrote: > > Amara also said to check details before 'nit picking' then there > > would be no 'nits picked' and then we wouldn't have any fun picking. > > > Dear Antony, > > Pick away, then, constructive nit picking could get rid of > misunderstandings, but I think one should check the details before so > one won't be pulling out the hairs instead of some imaginary nits! > > Amara 3512 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:43am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Loss of friend Amara Thanks very much for your thoughtful words and useful reminders. We are indeed extremely fortunate to have met the dhamma (again) in this lifetime and to have had the chance to reflect on the inevitability of death and separation from the liked. And when dosa arises, the teaching that it is conditioned by attachment to sensous objects is a very useful reflection also. Jon --- Amara wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Sincere condolences for your loss, sometimes friends > are really > special because we choose them and are not just born > closely related. > Still the dhamma tells us that the more attachment > we have the more > dukkha will come of it, therefore we are often > better prepared than > most since from the moment we are born we are on our > way to death. > And you both have had the incredible opportunity to > study the dhamma > and accumulate knowledge and kusala for the future, > and to share it as > well as you could along the way, even in moments of > such sorrow, which > is a beautiful thing. > > Anumodana in all your kusala and especially in your > studies, despite > your sad loss, > > Amara 3513 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard Your questions below are very pertinent. I am not sure I can do justice to them in this post (written from work), but I would like at least to give some pointers to other posts where these questions are discussed. --- wrote: > > To summarise: > > Although concepts are not real and cannot be the > > object of satipatthana, it is helpful to know more > > about them, so that they are not taken for > realities. > > > ================================ > Is it the actual concepts, themselves, that > cannot be the objects of > satipatthana, or is it their non-existent referents? > Don't concepts/ideas > come under the mental qualities section of the > Satipatthana Sutta? There are a number of references in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and Vissudhimagga that indicate that this is not so. See the posts in the archives which I mention below > It seems to me, informally, that a > concept/idea is an object of > discernment via the mental-sense gate in the same > way that a sound is an > object via the hearing-sense gate. I understand > concepts arising as > constructed objects, but so are all other > conditioned dhammas. In what sense > is a concept, itself, and not its supposed referent, > any less real than a > sound? Both are objects of discernment (vi~n~nana), > and both are impersonal, > impermanent, insubstantial, conditioned, and lacking > in independent > existence. Is there anything truly "real" in the > sense of being unconditioned > and transcending change and time other than > nibbana? Aren't all conditions > like foam, but nibbana real (santo sp?)? Yes, both realities and concepts are object of citta/vinnana (moment of consciousness). The difference lies in the fact that realities are those dhammas that are sabhaava (having an individual essence), whereas concepts are abhaava (without individual essence). Apologies for the brief reply, but hope you find the references below helpful. Look forward to discussing further. Jon Posts ##2918 and 2932 in the archives discuss the difference between concepts and ultimate realities. Post #3362, as corrected by post #3385, discusses whether concepts can be considered as dhammas. All these posts also discuss concepts and realities from the aspect of satipatthana. 3514 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in the Tipitaka? Ray Thanks for joining the group, and very glad to read of your interest. --- Ray Hendrickson wrote: > I just wanted to thank everyone for the warm > welcome. I am going through > the Abhidhamma for Daily Life and will then move to > the Manual of > Abhidhamma. Is 'Manual of Abhidhamma' the translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha done by Ven Narada Thera? If so, you might be interested in getting hold of the more recent translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi under the title 'A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma'. This is actually a revision of Ven Narada's translation with lots of explanatory material from the commentaries to A-S. It is a lot easier to find one's way through, and very well presented. Available by mail order from BPS (see link on the 'Bookmarks' page at the website of this list) This is my second time through and I am > sure I will have many > questions for the group. The first time through > pretty much left me over > whelmed :) I will try not to nibble too much :) Good luck with your reading. We all look forward to hearing more from you. Jon 3515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 0:17pm Subject: 'Cheating' dhammas Gayan, or Amara and everyone Do you, or does Amara or anyone, have a consolidated version of your translation of the vangchaka dhammas, ie all the parts in a single document? If so, would you mind either posting it to the list for reference, or sending to me by email. Many thanks Jon 3516 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 6:52pm Subject: Re: English translations > > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation > of the Yamaka and its commentray: > > Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth > Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U > Narada [of Rangoon]. > > Derek. Hi, Derek! Welcome to the discussions, Amara 3517 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas > Do you, or does Amara or anyone, have a consolidated > version of your translation of the vangchaka dhammas, > ie all the parts in a single document? > > If so, would you mind either posting it to the list > for reference, or sending to me by email. Dear everyone, Sorry I forgot to tell you last night that we have uploaded the 38 Vancana Sabhavo (vancaka) into the intermediate section of . I would also like to ask all our Pali literate friends to please help check the translation, in case there are any discrepencies in my translations (from the Thai as translated from the Pali by the foundation experts-) Please let me know if there are any corrections to be made, Amara 3518 From: teng kee ong Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 7:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Anderson" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:25:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations > Hello Derek, > > >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > > >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation > >of the Yamaka and its commentray: > > > >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth > >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U > >Narada [of Rangoon]. > > > >Derek. > > Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana > (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book > preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its > commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS > will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any > time soon. > > Welcome to the group! > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > Dear Jim, I already have the yamaka translation in English by a burmese scholar printed in Malaysia (vol.1 only) but PTS will print it out for sale soon.That book didn't use any other editions but only base on Myanmar reading.Theri apadana will be out soon from pts > > 3519 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 9:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: sutta search Amara Very interesing stuff. I looked a Ch VIII ‘Vipassana’ on your website and found this about the level of the lowest vipasana-nana: Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely separate, arammana by arammana. The world appears as a reality void of the self. At that moment there is no atta-sanna that used to remember realities assembled as the world. Then the sanna of the characteristics that are anatta of the specific reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been experienced when examining the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. [end] However, I could not find any references on the other points covered in your post, and which I am interested to follow up on. Would you mind indicating exactly where I could find them. Thanks. Jon --- Amara wrote: > > At > According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the > lowest vipassana- > nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular: > the nama-rupa- > paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of > panna who has > accumulated the study of realities to the point > where it > automatically produces nana the complete separation > of the rupa from > the nama. Normally everything happens so fast that > the mano dvara > never appears to anyone, even those who have reached > the highest > jhana without developing vipassana would never > experience the mano > dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound, > smell, taste or > body sense contact of any kind. Darker than dark. > At the moment the > most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of > knowledge of things > as they really are, the rupa appears for the first > time as such, just > visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes, > no one really in > there. The same for the other sense objects, > depending on what was > the object of that first nana, whether it happened > as smell or > whatever. Then the clear experience of the mano > dvara, for the first > time ever in the person's life. So spectacular and > true, and lasting > not just for a flash but long enough to be > unmistakable and the > knowledge never to be questioned or cause > uncertainty again, that the > sanna of the true characteristics of realities could > BEGIN. The > memory of this first nana would help the person > realize that these > are the true characteristics of things, as the world > resumes its > extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping > everything together > once again as the self and the world except at the > occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as > satipatthana continues to > develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that > precedes the magga > nana of the sotapanna. > > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a > summary of part of > the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of > Paramatthadhamma' in > the advanced section of > (Please check > details before nit-picking). 3520 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 9:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas Amara > Sorry I forgot to tell you last night that we have > uploaded the 38 > Vancana Sabhavo (vancaka) into the intermediate > section of > . I would also like to > ask all our Pali > literate friends to please help check the > translation, in case there > are any discrepencies in my translations (from the > Thai as translated > from the Pali by the foundation experts-) Please > let me know if > there > are any corrections to be made, Thanks for this. Is there any commentary in the Thai version, similar to the examlples etc given in Gayan's translation? I found these very useful. Jon 3521 From: selamat Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts Dear Sarah, Our group use English text and Indonesian language. We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life in two volumes as: "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of print and we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution. Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic Buddhism, intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. But nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in daily life. We should be grateful if you could deliver us some suggestions. Anumodana, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 8:38 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts > Dear Selamat, > > --- selamat wrote: > > Dear all, > > We look for 3 books in English Translation, i.e.: > > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > > > Any informations where to buy would be appreciated. > > > I know these books haven't been translated by the Pali > Text Society yet and I doubt they've been translated > in full by any other group, but someone else may know > more! > > Out of interest, does your group use English texts and > discuss in English or Indonesian? Have any texts been > translated into Indonesian? Do you work through the > texts in a systematic order? > > Thanks in advance if you have time to let us know. > > > anumodana > > selamat rodjali > > dhamma study group bogor > > anumodana also, > Sarah > > p.s. remember subject headings, everyone! > 3522 From: selamat Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations Dear Derek, anumodana for your information. May you ever grow in the Dhamma. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: <> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 2:01 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations > > 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > > 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > > 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation > of the Yamaka and its commentray: > > Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth > Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U > Narada [of Rangoon]. > > Derek. > 3523 From: selamat Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations Dear Jim, anumodana. may the Dhamma be the greatest blessing in your lives. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Anderson Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations > Hello Derek, > > >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > > >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation > >of the Yamaka and its commentray: > > > >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth > >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U > >Narada [of Rangoon]. > > > >Derek. > > Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana > (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book > preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its > commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS > will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any > time soon. > > Welcome to the group! > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > 3524 From: selamat Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations Dear Teng, anumodana. ----- Original Message ----- From: teng kee ong Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Jim Anderson" > Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:25:18 -0500 > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations > > > > Hello Derek, > > > > >> 1. Niddesa (Sutta Pitaka) > > >> 2. Apadana (Sutta Pitaka) > > >> 3. Yamaka (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > >> 4. Dukapatthana. (Abhidhamma Pitaka) > > > > > >http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0dwe/bs12.html refers to a translation > > >of the Yamaka and its commentray: > > > > > >Yamaka - Text and commentary translation (from the Burmese Sixth > > >Council version of the Canon): Conditional Relations, tr. Ven. U > > >Narada [of Rangoon]. > > > > > >Derek. > > > > Conditional Relations (2 vols) is a translation of the Tikapatthana > > (the first part of the Patthana) and not the Yamaka which is the book > > preceding the Patthana. There is no translation of the Yamaka and its > > commentary published by the Pali Text Society. I don't think the PTS > > will be publishing a translation of the Yamaka or Dukapatthana any > > time soon. > > > > Welcome to the group! > > > > Best wishes, > > Jim A. > > > > Dear Jim, > I already have the yamaka translation in English by a burmese scholar printed in Malaysia (vol.1 only) but PTS will print it out for sale soon.That book didn't use any other editions but only base on Myanmar reading.Theri apadana will be out soon from pts > > 3525 From: Joyce Short Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 10:44pm Subject: Jakarta/ English translations of texts Selemat Pagi, Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta - name escapes me at the moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - I can look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce ---------- >From: "selamat" >>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts >Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001, 09:20 > > Dear Sarah, > Our group use English text and Indonesian language. > We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life in two volumes as: > "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of print and > we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution. > > Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic Buddhism, > intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. But > nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice > vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in daily > life. > > We should be grateful if you could deliver us some suggestions. > Anumodana, > > selamat rodjali > > 3526 From: selamat Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jakarta/ English translations of texts Hi Joyce, Selamat malam from Indonesia. The Vihara is Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya Monastery. They have a large library, but do not have any translation of the books I mentioned earlier. Our Vipassana teacher (Bhante Girirakkhito Mahathera) had passed away few years ago and the active one nowadays is Bhante Thitaketuko live in Bali. There are also some centres of vipassana, but in line with Goenka Style. Their discourses have some discrepancies regarding the pure Buddhism. metta, selamat rodjali ----- Original Message ----- From: Joyce Short Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:44 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jakarta/ English translations of texts > Selemat Pagi, > > Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta - name escapes me at the > moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - I can > look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the > Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce > 3527 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: sutta search --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara > > Very interesing stuff. I looked a Ch VIII `Vipassana' > on your website and found this about the level of the > lowest vipasana-nana: > > Namarupa-pariccheda-nana: the first vipassana-nana > The mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta would arise to > clearly realize, experience fully the characteristics > of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that are completely > separate, arammana by arammana. The world appears as > a reality void of the self. At that moment there is > no atta-sanna that used to remember realities > assembled as the world. Then the sanna of the > characteristics that are anatta of the specific > reality can begin to arise and the sati-patthana must > be mindful of the anatta-sanna that has been > experienced when examining the characteristics of > nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma thereafter. Because > without being increasingly mindful of the anatta-sanna > already experienced in the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana, > the atta-sanna accumulated for such a long time > throughout samsara-vatta cannot be eradicated. [end] > > However, I could not find any references on the other > points covered in your post, and which I am interested > to follow up on. Would you mind indicating exactly > where I could find them. Thanks. Jon: What other stuff are you referring to? A little further on in the chapter you would have found this, for example: ...when the vipassana-nana does not arise, even though the mano-dvara-vithi-cittas arise in interposition of all panca-dvara-vithi-cittas, the mano-dvara-vithi would not appear because it would be hidden by the arammana of the panca-dvara-vithi-citta. Some might think that when one has reasoned that such nama arise from such rupa and such rupa from such nama, there is already vipassana-nana as paccayapariggaha-nana. But until the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana arises, no other vipassana-nana can arise. And after the nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana has arisen, it is impossible to mistake the instant which is not vipassana-nana as a vipassana-nana. Those for whom vipassana-nana, has already arisen would know the quality of anatta of the vipassana-nana: that vipassana-nana would arise according to the eightfold magga (ordinarily the fivefold magga arises) that gradually composes unto completion as the specific vipassana-nana. Thus the specific vipassana-nana would arise according to causes and conditions. Therefore, they develop the causes, namely sati-patthana, are mindful, study, examine, take note and know the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma normally, continually, increasingly and more conscientiously. (End quote) If there are other details you wish to read about, I suggest you read the complete chapter, as well as the ones on Samatha and the last chapter called 'Guidelines'. > --- Amara wrote: > > At > > According to Khun Sujin, panna at the level of the > > lowest vipassana- > > nana is already so steadfast as to be spectacular: > > the nama-rupa- > > paricheda-nana would reveal to the developer of > > panna who has > > accumulated the study of realities to the point > > where it > > automatically produces nana the complete separation > > of the rupa from > > the nama. Normally everything happens so fast that > > the mano dvara > > never appears to anyone, even those who have reached > > the highest > > jhana without developing vipassana would never > > experience the mano > > dvara, which is complete darkness, no sight, sound, > > smell, taste or > > body sense contact of any kind. Darker than dark. > > At the moment the > > most feeble of experiencing the very beginning of > > knowledge of things > > as they really are, the rupa appears for the first > > time as such, just > > visible oject, like a photo with colors and shapes, > > no one really in > > there. The same for the other sense objects, > > depending on what was > > the object of that first nana, whether it happened > > as smell or > > whatever. Then the clear experience of the mano > > dvara, for the first > > time ever in the person's life. So spectacular and > > true, and lasting > > not just for a flash but long enough to be > > unmistakable and the > > knowledge never to be questioned or cause > > uncertainty again, that the > > sanna of the true characteristics of realities could > > BEGIN. The > > memory of this first nana would help the person > > realize that these > > are the true characteristics of things, as the world > > resumes its > > extreme pace of arising and falling away, lumping > > everything together > > once again as the self and the world except at the > > occasional 'flashes' of sati and panna as > > satipatthana continues to > > develop to the next of the 16 vipassana nana that > > precedes the magga > > nana of the sotapanna. > > > > Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this is a > > summary of part of > > the chapter on Vipassana in the book 'Summary of > > Paramatthadhamma' in > > the advanced section of > > (Please check > > details before nit-picking). 3528 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:37pm Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas > Thanks for this. Is there any commentary in the Thai > version, similar to the examlples etc given in Gayan's > translation? I found these very useful. Jon He did not translate them for the most part. Check the posts in the archives. The committee translated only what was in the texts. Perhaps you could ask him to translate the complete book for you. Amara 3529 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:43pm Subject: Re: English translations of texts > Our group use English text and Indonesian language. > We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life in two volumes as: > "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It is now out of print and > we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution. > > Of course we study in a systematic order, begining with basic Buddhism, > intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Dhammasangani. But > nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We study, practice > vipassana meditation and discuss the application of Abhidhamma in daily > life. Dear Selamat and group, Anumodana in your studies and your great kusala in sharing the knowledge of the dhamma, may you accumulate the highest beneficence the Buddha intended in teaching it, Amara 3530 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 11:48pm Subject: Re: Jakarta/ English translations of texts > Theres a large Theravadan Center in North Jakarta - name escapes me at the > moment but they have a large library, I think the largest in Java - I can > look it up in my notes if you can't find it but it was listed on the > Buddhist meditation page for Indonesia. - Joyce Hello! And welcome, Joyce, From another member of the group, Amara 3531 From: Date: Mon Feb 19, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - Thank you for your reply. > Yes, both realities and concepts are object of > citta/vinnana (moment of consciousness). The > difference lies in the fact that realities are those > dhammas that are sabhaava (having an individual > essence), whereas concepts are abhaava (without > individual essence). > > Apologies for the brief reply, but hope you find the > references below helpful. Look forward to discussing > further. > > Jon > > Posts ##2918 and 2932 in the archives discuss the > difference between concepts and ultimate realities. > Post #3362, as corrected by post #3385, discusses > whether concepts can be considered as dhammas. > All these posts also discuss concepts and realities > from the aspect of satipatthana. > =================================== I have two questions. First the pragmatic one: How do I look up posts by such numbering? All I see on the web site is numbering within individual months. My second question pertains to the notion of some dhammas other than nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My understanding, confirmed, I think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness in The Path of Discrimination, has been that every thing which is born, which arises, is void of individual essence. This is certainly what dependent arising seems to me to imply. It has long been an accusation by Mahayana that so-called "hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as having substantial own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists correct in this? (Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of mine, their use of the pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3532 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts Dear Selamat, --- selamat wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Our group use English text and Indonesian language. > We translated Nina's Buddhism in Daily Life in two > volumes as: > "Buddha Dhamma di Dalam Kehidupan Sehari-hari". It > is now out of print and > we still re-edit to reprint for free distribution. > > Of course we study in a systematic order, begining > with basic Buddhism, > intermediate Buddha Dhamma, Abhidhammatthasangaha, > Dhammasangani. But > nowadays we have not any formal teacher anymore. We > study, practice > vipassana meditation and discuss the application of > Abhidhamma in daily > life. > > We should be grateful if you could deliver us some > suggestions. > Anumodana, I know your group is very well established and that you've had contact with Nina VG for a long time. Perhaps you could try translating Abhidhamma in Daily Life next! Suggestions for your group: 1. Perhaps you could print out the posts from the list (at least the meatier ones) and read out together and discuss. 2. Encourage you members to give more feedback on the above and to help with difficult questions as you're all so well read! 3. Keep working through texts of ADL (above for e.g.) and discuss as you go. 4. order tapes from Thailand (K.Sujin & students) to listen to a section and then discuss. (I'll repost the links for ordering tapes in the next couple of days when I have a moment to look them out). > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about vipassana, vipassana meditation, abhidhamma study and abhidhamma in daily life. We'd all be interested to hear more about your group's views. Btw, how many are there in your group? We'd like to hear more from you all! Where exactly are you based? Best wishes, Sarah 3533 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 1:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nit-picking- Dhammapada Dear Jim, --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Dear Sarah and others, > >> As to the authorship of the Dhp commentary, > Buddhaghosa (as > translator) is the name usually ascribed to the work > according to DPPN > and the CPD gives the same name. In Burlingame's > transl. it is only > the stories and verses that are translated -- > leaving out the > word-by-word commentary on each of the verses. Many > of the works in > the Khuddakanikaya are in verses only and one has to > go to the > commentaries to read the stories that go with them. Thanks for yr helpful comments as always. When I said the author was unknown, I was cheating & just quoting from the PTS catalogue! Now I've done a little more research and the picture seems rather unclear. In Burlingame's intro, he goes into a lot of detail to suggest that it probably wasn't written by Buddhaghosa. The main reasons seems to be that it must be later than the Jataka Comm as it refers frequently to the Jat Comm. Furthermore, in the Jat Comm there are references to the commentaries by Buddhaghosa and also in the Dhp Comm itself (p.49, Burlingame's Dhp Comm translation). So Burlingame suggests the following chronology (p.58): 1. Buddhaghosa's Visuddhimagga & comm- 410-432A.D. 2. jataka book, around 440A.D. 3. Dhammapada Comm, probably 450-500A.D.* 4. Dhammapala's Comm (late 5th century A.D.) *many other reasons given I have no idea! I've also been reading a very old copy of 'The Pali Literature of Ceylon' by GP Malalasekera. It has some meaty info with references on the origins of the Abhidhamma which I'll leave till Rob is back. On the chapter on Buddhaghosa there is also a long section on the 'authenticity of the tradition which ascribes the Dhammapada atthakatha to Buddhaghosa'. It talks about the stumbling block with regards the difference in language and style between this work & the other comms. of Buddhaghosa. I think I leave it at that for now but can give more detail if anyone wishes. Like Jim says, we don't have the word by word comm on the verses although I'd have thought some of these other scholars would... I'm really out of my depth here, but it's led me to some interesting reading at a very conceptual level! Regards, Sarah 3534 From: Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma - Then & now Mike My apologies for not following up on this sooner, especially as your points are very interesting ones. (I'm afraid I have many more unanswered posts where this one has been resting.) > > > > Yes. But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at > > a > > > > relatively superficial level. It is not the > > panna > > > > which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing > > > and > > > > at the same time has penetrated the true nature > > of > > > > that reality to the degree that the > > characteristic > > > > of > > > > impermanence is known. > > Well, no, I'm convinced of that--partly because of the > duration of what we're talking about. Any real dhamma > is an oh-my-gosh gazillion times gone before we can > possibly reflect on it. So understanding, as the > likes of myself can talk about, it is always and only > at the conceptual level. Is it reasonable to hope for > pariyatti vs. pańńatti, here? Is paritatti not > preferrable? Or is this yet another dead end? Understanding at an intellectual level is a basis, a necessary basis, for understanding at a more direct level to arise in due course, so it is by no means to be sneezed at. And this in turn means we need not despair of the possibility of direct awareness at some level, no matter how weak, arising. As we have discussed in another context (suta- vs. cinta- vs. bhavana-maya-panna), intellectual understanding continues to be developed, and to be a condition for understanding at a more direct level, on and on. > > > I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have > > an > > > affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that > > > suggest > > > some previous 'accumulation'? > > > > Yes, indeed it does. But is it understanding that > > is > > derived direct knowledge of realities? Or is it > > understanding mostly at an intellectual level, from > > considering and reflecting on the teachings > > generally > > and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of anicca, > > dukkha and anatta) in particular? > > No doubt. What I'm guessing is that understanding at > the intellectual level is conditioned by imperceptible > specks of real satipańńaa in an ocean of pańńatti. If > not, why is there any intellectual understanding at > all? Is intellectual understanding no different from > intellectual misunderstanding? Yes, I'm sure this is right. The different kinds or levels of understanding mutually support and condition each other. > > > If it's true that we > > > don't carry 'stories' from one life to the next, > > but > > > only pańńaa? Or is this just sankharuppadana (or > > > something like that)? > > > > But even though there is panna, panna of what level > > and stage of development? > > Well, isn't some, at any level, better than none, at > any level? Indeed. I was only seeking to draw a distinction between the quality of the panna of beings living during the Buddha's lifetime and beings living today. > Thanks as always for 'your' patience(!) Well, thanks for your patience also, and anumodana in your interest. Jon 3535 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 7:11pm Subject: A special problem Dear Friends, This morning I received the following e-mail through the website, and Varee thought that it might be good to put the answer up as Q&A9. We agreed that for this once we will not state the source of the question nor give the address of the person involved out of respect for privacy, as you will understand. Here is the message (which will be slightly edited for the web): i had a question on your view on reincarnation and went to buddhist pages for feedback i have brain damage although born normal theres not much left.wonder i f rebirth is real and can be born human again next life like everyone else with normal human intelligence and no brain damage.how does this work.isnt there basic design to human being.was born normal but had accident and wires melted and lost human intelligence.so wonder if tehre is rebirth and i can get normal human body and brain next life to be like everyone else with the same basic design.how does this work.also if die with dementia what happens know these are odd questions wanted to get buddhist perspective any opinion is helpful sincerley (X) in other words how can you attain normal human rebirth with normal human brain.where does it come from if missing in one life.just the basic human genetic pattern.how does this work (End Quote) I was wondering about it but Varee said that many Thai people too are unwilling to donate their eyes, for example, to the Thai Red Cross because they fear they would lack sight in their next lives. So just in case we might be able to help people to understanding this problem, we will be adding this soon to the Q&As: When one leaves a lifetime or an existence, one does not move from one rupa to another, as a nama that changes physical manifestations, as most religions teach. The Buddha teaches that everything that one considers the self arise from causes, the nama (intelligence, consciousness or the element that knows) as well as the rupa (all other elements, from a dead body and minerals to electricity, air and space). These realities arise and fall away with extreme rapidity wherever they arise, according to conditions, and are succeeded by others so fast we could not normally witness their continuous succession. The citta that falls away is gone forever, a new ones arise while there are conditions for them to arise, and when the cuti ('death' or ending that existence) citta arises, the next citta could arise anywhere, according to the kamma (past action) that causes the next rebirth. If it were a kusala kamma (good deed) one might be born a deva (beings in a heavenly plane) with no use for a human brain whatever. It has nothing to do with the dead body of the last life. Or if by some akusala kamma (bad deed) one were born an amoeba or some single cell life form on this earth, what use would it have for a human brain? But as one could never tell which kamma in our billions of billions of lifetimes in samsara (continuous rebirths) would be the one to condition our next rebirth, one should accumulate as much kusala as possible while we are able, so that our future births could be the result of good deeds. All life forms with rupa arise with kamma as conditions for both the nama and a good part of the rupa. The kamma that caused rebirth would cause the very first rupa to arise, then other causes such as utu (temperature) and oja (nutrition, rupa that causes other rupa to arise) come into play as well. That kamma would determine, together with many other conditions such as other kamma accumulated and ready to produce results, as well as the times he was born in, the environments and abilities of the person, would play their parts (the sampati (positive) and vipati (negative) factors), the nama and rupa of the next lifetimes. In other words, whatever happened in this lifetime to the rupa would end here in this lifetime, the kamma that determines the next rebirth would create that existence's corresponding rupa. But as kusala would always bring good things, one should always do as much good deeds as we are able, and one of the good and wise deeds is to study the dhamma as much as one can. Now one is reading this message, there is sight, seeing, thinking, touching, hardness/softness, temperature, movement, tension, hearing, sounds. All these things are real, right now, before you. You could increase your knowledge of their characteristics, you do not even need your brain to experience realities that appear right now, where people with all their brain intact might never be able to accumulate knowledge about if they had never known about the Buddha's teachings. May the kusala of studying the truth, and therefore the greatest and most beneficient knowledge, keep you and bring you the best comfort in the dhamma (...) (End potential Q&A) Perhaps you have some comments? Amara 3536 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 8:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Sarah and dear group Sorry for the delay in answering but I have been pretty engaged in other fields and could not dedicate much time or energy on the list. Well here I am now. Even if I wonder... apart for few people here if my sharing can be of interest for the mental setting of this list, I feel a bit displaced to be very honest with you. I will try replying in different mails, focusing on the various issues you proposed Sarah. > > Dear Amara and everybody > > > > It has been a long time by now that I am not trying > > to control anything, > > anymore and I live life as it unfolds dear dhamma > > sister. > > That's what I most delight in my nomadic life, just > > drifting away, no plans, > > no security, no control, only the awareness of the > > present moment. > >First questions: what is the present moment? What does >it mean to be aware of the present moment? For me, for my understanding and sensitivity 'present moment' means taking each moment as a single moment, without worrying about future implications or connecting with past recollections as far as I manage to remain on focus in the unfolding reality of what is happening here and now in my life and engaged in dealing with such events with a clear, attentive mind to penetrate the significance of that while experiencing it. It means if I am taking a shower I am totally there, if I am enjoying a sunset on the beach I totally surrender to it, without evaluating that much but just being there present to sensations, emotions, thoughts related to that moment, breathing the reality of that moment. Not being 'lost' there but mindful of what is going on. Somehow not approaching events with a discoursive mind but just a naked mind, bare attention. Living each moment in wholeheartedness. Hope my clumsy English can ben sufficient to uncover what I mean to communicate. > >And > > Dhamma as an ever reliable companion in this > > journey. > > You cannot grasp, we would want but homelessness > > doesn't allows you to. > >Why does homelessness prevent grasping? Sure Sarah, homelessness prevents grasping a lot, at least that is my experience. For example you are an expatriate, it's quite a different condition from being a nomadic like me. You are destabilized as well but you settle down and make a conscious effort to integrate in a new country, in a new society and culture. I don't have a family or a house or a career, I am totaly unsafe according with social values, emarginated from the usual ways. I am lead an itinerant life and there are no plans, no routes. No reference points, nothing to get stuck in, in an objective reality. I live in uncharted territory, there is no comfort zone to go and relax. I am exposed and live day by day; I am anacronistic. I just keep going, I cannot hide or feel protected. That's what I mean for drifting away. A bit like going with the stream, not opposing too much resistance. I appreciate very much this reflection I am quoting from Albert Camus about travelling: 'What gives value to travel is fear. It is the fact that, at a certain moment, when we are so far from our own country we are seized by a vague fear, and an instinctive desire to go back to the protection of old habits. This is the most obvious benefit of travel. At that moment we are feverish but also porous, so that the slightest touch makes us quiver to the depths of our being. We come across a cascade of light, and there is eternity. This is why we should not say that we travel for pleasure.' Well perhaps is not buddhist language but is what I feel. Therefore homelessness for me is a prevention for clinging. It helps a lot. > > > You just can keep going and flow along with life. > > Beliefs, values, choices are just a moment in my > > consciousness. > > I am opposing less and less resistance more the > > years pass by. > > I am more and more surrendering to the present > > moment. > >I'm lost, sorry! What keeps going? What does it mean >to surrender to the present moment and what is the 'I' >that does this? Sarah I have to use a conventional language; there are not expressions for the non self. I cannot relate to a bunch of mental and emotional reactions and cognitions that keeps going, I refer to it as I, me. Surrender to the present moment means letting go, not grasping or judging too much, acnowledging that reality is not solid, is transforming, is unfolding therefore we don't have to take rigid, intransigent positions about anything but 'dance according with the rhythm', being open mind and heart to welcome life and it's challenges or queries. Okay, now I have to interrupt but I will relate to the other issues you propose in a further mail. I am sorry if my language is not attuned with your expertize but just I cannot relate with that kind of rational and detached approach, very adherent to a textual evidence in order to avoid misleading. Meaning I respect it but it's not my approach. I follow my understanding of the teachings, meaning what I have experienced and I cannot act a knowledge that I did not realize inside me. Love and respect Cybele 3537 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > I have two questions. > First the pragmatic one: How do I look up > posts by such numbering? All > I see on the web site is numbering within individual > months. I’m sorry you are having difficulty. Hmmm. I don’t see any such numbering on my screen. Try one of the following. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup and you should see some hotlinks on the left-hand side of the screen, one of which says Messages. Click on that and you’re in the archives. Then find your way to the message number you want.. Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files and click on the ‘Useful links …’ file, then click on one of the file numbers under ‘Concepts and Ultimate Realities’ (This is something new we are just setting up – still in beta development! Our thanks to Kom for technical help.) > My second question pertains to the notion of > some dhammas other than > nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My > understanding, confirmed, I > think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness > in The Path of > Discrimination, has been that every thing which is > born, which arises, is > void of individual essence. This is certainly what > dependent arising seems to > me to imply. It has long been an accusation by > Mahayana that so-called > "hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as > having substantial > own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists > correct in this? > (Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of > mine, their use of the > pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.) I don’t have the Path of Discrimination, so it’s difficult to comment. But I am wondering whether there is not some confusion of terms. I am familiar with the description of things that are born and which arise (ie. are conditioned) as being liable to change or lacking in an abiding nature (ie, not self). Perhaps you could check the glossary that I am told comes with the Path of Discrimination and let us know what is the Pali term that is being rendered as ‘[void of] individual essence’. Good luck with getting into the archives. Jon 3538 From: selamat Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 10:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts Dear Sarah, > I know your group is very well established and that > you've had contact with Nina VG for a long time. > Perhaps you could try translating Abhidhamma in Daily > Life next! > We'll try. > Suggestions for your group: > > 1. Perhaps you could print out the posts from the list > (at least the meatier ones) and read out together and > discuss. > > 2. Encourage you members to give more feedback on the > above and to help with difficult questions as you're > all so well read! > > 3. Keep working through texts of ADL (above for e.g.) > and discuss as you go. > > 4. order tapes from Thailand (K.Sujin & students) to > listen to a section and then discuss. (I'll repost the > links for ordering tapes in the next couple of days > when I have a moment to look them out). > > > Are these tapes in English language or Thai? BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info. > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about > vipassana, vipassana meditation, abhidhamma study and > abhidhamma in daily life. We'd all be interested to > hear more about your group's views. Btw, how many are > there in your group? Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12 consistent in every discussion. We'd like to hear more from you > all! Where exactly are you based? > My address: Jl. City (Ranggagading) No. 9A Depan SD Kesatuan Bogor 16123, Jabar Indonesia metta, selamat rodjali 3539 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation ‘A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma’ (BPS). While it discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana generally which we have discussed recently. The passage that follows is directly from the book (CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31). The numbers in square brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the end. =============================== All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight into the three characteristics of impermanence, suffering, and non-self. [1] However, they differ among themselves in the degree of their development of concentration (samadhi). Those who develop insight without a basis of jhana are called practitioners of bare insight (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana. [3] Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. [4] The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ from the mundane jhanas in several important respects. [5] First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the unconditioned reality. [5.1] Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the defilements while leaving their underlying seeds intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2] Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the fine material world and thus sustain existence in the round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] =================================== Notes: 1. It is the development of understanding of the characteristics of reality that leads to the attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta (magga citta). 2. Development of concentration to the level of jhana is not necessary for attaining magga citta. 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration accompanying the moment of path citta ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. 5. There are, however, 4 important differences between jhana citta and the path citta – 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana. 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while magga citta eradicates kilesa. 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation from the cycle of birth and death. 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana citta is the degree of concentration on the object at that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. I hope you find this interesting. Jon 3540 From: Date: Tue Feb 20, 2001 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi Jon, In a message dated 2/20/01 9:11:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > > I have two questions. > > First the pragmatic one: How do I look up > > posts by such numbering? All > > I see on the web site is numbering within individual > > months. > > Iā€™m sorry you are having difficulty. Hmmm. I donā€™t > see any such numbering on my screen. Try one of the > following. > > Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup > and you should see some hotlinks on the left-hand side > of the screen, one of which says Messages. Click on > that and youā€™re in the archives. Then find your way > to the message number you want.. > > Go to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files > and click on the ā€˜Useful links ā€¦ā€™ file, then click on > one of the file numbers under ā€˜Concepts and Ultimate > Realitiesā€™ (This is something new we are just setting > up ā€“ still in beta development! Our thanks to Kom for > technical help.) > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. Since I wrote you, I *was* able to access the posts by such numbering. ------------------------------------------------------------ > > My second question pertains to the notion of > > some dhammas other than > > nibbana having sabhava (individual essence). My > > understanding, confirmed, I > > think, by my looking over the Treatise on Voidness > > in The Path of > > Discrimination, has been that every thing which is > > born, which arises, is > > void of individual essence. This is certainly what > > dependent arising seems to > > me to imply. It has long been an accusation by > > Mahayana that so-called > > "hinayana" is substantialist, accepting dhammas as > > having substantial > > own-being (svabhava (SKT)). So, are the Mahayanists > > correct in this? > > (Obviously, I am excluding, in this last question of > > mine, their use of the > > pejorative 'hinayana' in referring to Theravada.) > > I donā€™t have the Path of Discrimination, so itā€™s > difficult to comment. But I am wondering whether > there is not some confusion of terms. I am familiar > with the description of things that are born and which > arise (ie. are conditioned) as being liable to change > or lacking in an abiding nature (ie, not self). > Perhaps you could check the glossary that I am told > comes with the Path of Discrimination and let us know > what is the Pali term that is being rendered as ā€˜[void > of] individual essenceā€™. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava' as 'individual essence'. In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of Discrimination), in section 5 (on "voidness in change"), it is written that "Born materiality [and also born feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual essence; ...". In the note after this treatise which refers to what I just quoted, it glosses 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising of itself" or "own essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: "Because of existence in dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own essence ..." This strikes me as little different from the Mahayana notion of lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also inferred the position of all conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the writings of the modern Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as the monk/scholar and abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there certainly does exist a strain of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the Theravadin tradition, there are contrary strains to be found as well, it seems. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Good luck with getting into the archives. > > Jon > ================================= Thanks very much for your kind reply, Jon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3541 From: Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:46am Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path hello Jon, I have tried to find these passages in another rending of the Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma (the Nārada tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali sections being quoted here, to help me find the passages in question? anyway, yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that closes with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found interesting was the idea that through supermundane jhanic states, permanent elimination of defilements would/could occur. I suppose that we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the āsavas) here. most striking a passage! Your note is also interesting: what would you suggest is the relation between jhāna citta and magga citta that you are pointing to here? I wait to hear more here. thank you. Jinavamsa --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex > > I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I > came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation `A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (BPS). While it > discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has > something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana > generally which we have discussed recently. > > The passage that follows is directly from the book > (CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31). The numbers in square > brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the > end. > > =============================== > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits > through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight > into the three characteristics of impermanence, > suffering, and non-self. [1] > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of > their development of concentration (samadhi). Those > who develop insight without a basis of jhana are > called practitioners of bare insight > (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the path and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain > a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of > jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > > The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ > from the mundane jhanas in several important respects. > [5] > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object > some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the > supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the > unconditioned reality. [5.1] > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds > intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate > defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2] > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the > fine material world and thus sustain existence in the > round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the > fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in > liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] > =================================== > Notes: > 1. It is the development of understanding of the > characteristics of reality that leads to the > attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta > (magga citta). > 2. Development of concentration to the level of jhana > is not necessary for attaining magga citta. > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > `corresponds to' the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to `correspond to' jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > 5. There are, however, 4 important differences > between jhana citta and the path citta – > 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while > the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana. > 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while > magga citta eradicates kilesa. > 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future > rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation > from the cycle of birth and death. > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana > citta is the degree of concentration on the object at > that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of > magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. > > I hope you find this interesting. > > Jon > > 3542 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 9:59am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Jonathan, I did enjoy this post. I have a question for you. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] At the supramundane moments (magga and pala), I understand that wisdom (panna) basically cognizes Nibhanna as it truly is. Would you explain what the comm. means when it says "wisdom fathoming the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths?" It appears to me that only one noble truth is known at the moments. The first two noble truths are already known (to a degree) even before the supramundane moments. The maggha is known only after the supramundane moments. kom 3543 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I Dear Jonothan, Extremely sorry for the Late reply ( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] ) Heres the concatenated list starts here... ---------------------------------------------------- written in 1947 In the preface the venerable says.. " There are 38 vangcaka dhammas are mentioned in netthippakarana atthakatha. But they are mentioned only namely. There are two tikas for the atthakatha but vangcaka dhammas are not mentioned in any of them." " These arise in a mind that has developed a certain disliking towards akusalas. The akusala dhammas disguise themselves according to the mind's 'tendency' or mentality. ( as the mud gets the shape of the object that pressed onto it.)" In the book , the venerable describes the dhammas namely mentioned in the atthakatha, and describes more dhammas using his knowledge in the abhidhamma. First , the ones from the atthakatha... 1. apatikkulasagnamukhena kamacchando vangcethi One develops the apatikkula sanna -> Looking at every living or non-living object in the same perspective. Whether the dhathu in his body,in an alien body, rocks , trees, young body, decayed body,... start to look the same. He has no disgust in the things that are disgusting to others.( phlegm,urine etc...) They look just collections of dhathus to him. He will attend to the ones in need of help, without disgusted of the filth. But Kamacchanda will disguise itself as apatikkulasanna. One has liking to the praise , profits etc .. gained by helping people.( But he knows this kamacchada is a bad quality in him) When theres a person in need , and others do not reach him beacause of the patikula things associated with helping ., theres a chance that in the former's mind the kamacchanda will arise , and he helps the person without feeling any disgust. But he thinks that apatikkula sanna has arose. It is indeed real hard to distinguish the kusala from the akusala. The only catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' is still there when the praises and profits are not associated with the helping. Another occasion is , a person may not feel disgust of the phlegm,urine etc ( you know the lot) of another person he has some raaga for.The person knows that raaga is 'bad' and apatikkula sanna is 'good', he tends to think that what he has is the apatikkula sanna. But what he ' gives in'( and gladly develops) is none other than kamacchanda. As above the catch is to see whether this 'apatikkula sanna' prevails with regarding a person who he has no raaga for. 2. patikkulasanna pathirupena vyapado vancethi One develops patikkula sanna with regarding to dhathus. ( this helps to fight with excessive Raga Whatever regarded beautiful in the normal sense , appears filthy to him. (eg. the glowing teeth of a pretty person will look as melon seeds glued to the mouth of an empty clay pot) But vyapada will disguise as patikkulasanna. One knows vyapada is 'bad' and knows tha theres a good thing called patikkula sanna. He will sometimes develop the raw vyapada , thinking that what he has is patikkula sanna. [ story of sour grapes..] so checking is needed. to be continued... Cheats contd. 3. samadhimukhena thinamiddhang vangcethi When one is trying to concentrate , without moving the body, viriya decreases. ( the tendency of the untrained mind is towards kamaraaga, not towards samadhi ) So thinamiddha arises, the one who mistakes this as samadhi gives in to it . ( so cheated ) 4. viriyarambhamukhena uddhaccang vangcethi One over-tries to calm the mind, over-tries to understand things he thinks that he's developing viriya, but instead he's cheated by uddhacca. 5. sikkhakamathamukhena kukkuccang vangcethi One who likes for moral restraint has the kusala - sikkhakamatha But when one starts to worry about the things done , thinking whether they were allowed,not-allowed etc will develop the dvesha(dosa) rooted santhapa.Eventually kukkucca., mistaking it for sikkhakamatha. 6. ubhayapakkha santhiranamukhena vicikicchang vangchethi This dhamma is profound, and expands into large areas ie, merits/demerits, kamma, rebirth, world systems, beings, jhanas etc... This is initially 'too much' for an untrained mind, limited mind. ( to see the micro-organisms use of a microscope is needed, cant do it with the naked eye) So there are more things to develop mentally and physically. One feels that ' I have to know all the reasons, all the scenarios, all the logic,...then I'll start going along the noble path' ... he mistakes this for the kusala dhamma ubhayapakkha santhirana, but its none other than the vicikiccha. His development stops, he starts to worry about things that will not lead to progress. vicikiccha ( in true appearence or in disguise) is unavoidable and a great obstacle. Beings have to develop more and more saddha to fight with and find out vicikiccha. (saddha indriya) to be continued. 7. ittanitta samuppekkhana mukhena sammoho vangceti. the kusala dhamma ittanitta samuppekkhana - untrained mind takes pride, delights ..etc in 'itta' happenings,( fame, gains,praise etc... ) and will entertain anger ,hatred towards 'unitta' happenings.(fear, shame, blame, sorrow etc..) The mind without tanha, conceit stays unwavered and steady in all occasions. This quality is complete only in arahants, but can be there in a certain degree in puthujjanas and sekhas. But sometimes, simply because failing to understand the true nature of particular itta and anitta happenings, one stays 'unwavered' and calm. He might think that this is his kusala , but that is the sammoha akusala dhamma. 8. attagnuta mukhena attani aparibhavena maano vangceti. the kusala dhamma attagnuta - taking good care of one self , looking after oneself, taking the full responsibility of oneself with reasoning is a kusala dhamma praised by buddha in many occasions. but the akusala maana can cheat by taking the shape of that quality,one can mistake this attani aparibhavena maana in him for the former kusala dhamma and let it develop. contd. 9. vimansa mukhena hetupatirupaka pariggahena miccaditthi vanceti. kusala - vimansa ( inquiry?) is related to panna, vimansa is a very useful 'tool' . This is praised by the buddha. The obstacle here is the limitations in one's self. Due to these inherited limitations one can be cheated . Who stands on a ditthi ( either samma or micca ) will begin to see many conditions that supports his ditthi. [ when one believes in god ,when inquiring, he will see supporting 'facts' for it.... when one does not believe in a god he will see supporting 'facts' for it... when one has attasanna ( soul-perception) , he will................................ when one has anattasanna............................... when one believes in kamma , rebirth................... when one does not believe in kamma, rebirth...................... ] So the micca ditthi akusala dhamma will cheat as the vimansa kusala dhamma, it will show solid 'facts' ( hetupatirupaka pariggahena) 10. virattatha patirupakena satthesu adayapanththa vangceti. kusala - virattatha , this is non-attachment , non-bondedness to spouses,offsprings,siblings,friends etc. This kusala is triggered from not having the love and care for them but seeing the danger in the samsara. (greater samsara bhaya ) the akusala adayapanatha is that feeling no (duty of)care , responsibility for others. One who has the desire to develop kusalas , can mistake this akusala as the former kusala, and can try to develop the disguised akusala. The point here is to know the kusala as the kusala , and the akusala as the akusala.So one cannot get cheated by akusala. contd. 11. anunnatha patisevana patirupathaya kamasukhallikanuyogo vangceti In the Order , Buddha has allowed certain 'allowances' so the holylife can be lived smoothly and effectively (ie civara , pindapatha, senasana, gilanapaccaya). This has to be done with restraint and responsibility. Anunnatha patisevana is the kusala that the 'consuming' is only done with the 'allowed' and 'recommended'. But in some occasions priority may waver.One may only concentrate on what is allowed and not allowed. And when some'thing' is allowed, he would give full throttle for it. His priority is not living the holylife effectively , but to make full use of the 'allowances'. Due to the 'fear' of akusala, he thinks that this is the skill of anunnatha patisevana, but its none other than the disguised kamasukhallikanuyoga. In the lay life, the person who is cheated by kamasukhallikanuyoga ( he does not recognize that this is kamasukhallikanuyoga) begins to think.."in many occasions the buddha has adviced and allowed the lay people to earn righteously, live comfortably, have and look after children........." and he will dive into sensuality. He misses the point here and stops himself from ( the possibility of ) attaining the noble fruits of the very hard-earned human life. 12. ajivaparisuddhi patirupathaya asamvibhaga seelatha vangceti. It is the way of the Noble Order that there should be 'sharing of the resources' , The monks who are more successful in receiving alms share it with the brethen who are less-successful. Ajiva parisuddhi is , not having anything to do with dusseela ( who lacks moral restraint ), alajji (who have no shame in doing unskillful unmeritorious deeds ) people. Asamvibhaga seelatha is, not sharing/giving anything to others, liking to consume everything by oneself. This may cheat as the ajiva parisuddhi -- ie.." Oh, I have no business with those alajji, dusseela ones. If I share these , then my ajiva parisuddhi will be in danger" So checking is needed. Prejudice must be chased away from the play. contd. 3544 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET II 13. samvibhaga seelata patirupataya miccajivo vangceti. 'Sharing of the resources' is the recommended way in the noble order. This is the skill 'samvibhaga seelata'. But it is not allowed for a monk to give to laypeople other than the gifts of the dhamma( dhammadanas). Sometimes monks tend to gift laypeople with the commodities received as alms., to please them.( so , as they are please with monks , they will more and more aims in return) But this is miccajiva. A monk can 'feel' making the laypeple please by giving material gifts and worldly gifts is samvibhaga seelatha, but its miccajiva( wrong livelihood? ) In this occcasion the lay followers get pleased and entertain a liking and friendship with the monk, but the point is this type of particular dhammas can be associated with even a thief/criminal who helps them, does favourable things for them. This may appear to build confidence in the lay followers' minds but its is a type of tanha associated with piti. (sapitika tanha). As always the idea here is to distinguish between the kusala ad the akusala. No patigha should be entertained when the akusala is detected. 14. asamsaggaviharata patirupataya asamgahaseelata vangceti The kusala asamsagga viharata is , not mixing up with the unsuitable, unallowed. For the monks , mixing up with the lay followers is unsuitable. Mixing in the sense, doing the unskillful talks ( the 32, ie..rajakata, corakata ..), frivoulous gossip..etc.Asamsagga viharata is a quality that should be developed by monks/yogins. the akusala asamgahaseelata - > not doing anything for, ignoring the lay followers altogether.Not giving common courtesy, not gifting with dhamma etc. So this asamgaha seelatha can be mistaken for the asamsaggaviharata. This type of internal cheat happens mostly to the yogins who have gone forth with a lot of confidence, who are diligent in observing the holylife. So this type of akusala must be carefully detected. contd. 15. samgaha seelata patirupataya ananulomika samsagga vangceti. kusala samgahaseelata - gifting the (lay ..etc)followers with the dhamma, gifting the allowed ( brethern..) with helpful 'materials' , acting with amity for everyone, acting with compassion for the others..... This samgahaseelatha is a quality developed by samana/yogins. akusala ananulomikasamsagga - the mixing up with unallowed, unsuitable and affairs therein. The cheating of ananulomikasamsagga as samgahaseelatha happens not in the minds of crooks but ones who are thinking that they are actually developing a kusala. This can be detected as, One will 'feel' like much metta and samgahaseelatha for some rich followers, the people ( spouse,offsprings, etc..) of such followers. But He won't feel that with the poor ones. When cheated ,the tendency to liking the worldly affairs , taking part in them etc .. with those rich ones , can be detected. with 'real' samgahaseelatha those would not arise. 16. saccavadita patirupataya pisunavacata vangceti. saccavadita - speaking the truth, no lies, no half-truths. pisunavacata- slandering regardless of the truth or fallacy in it, slandering is akusala and miccavaca. Sometimes ones who do slandering , internally get cheated as thinking ' this is the quality of telling the truth and that is a kusala ' . 17. apisunavadita patirupataya anatthakamata vangceti. The evil of slandering is the intention to mess with the common understanding of a one with another. It is not a 'papakamma' to tell warn about a person ( or rather the evil qualities of such person ) to another for the well being of the 'another'. It is a good quality to warn ( and protect ) somebody from a possible arm.( a sappurisa quality ) Intention is the key here. Being 'silent' in such an occation 'thinking' " I will not say pisunavaca..." is a stage which needs to be further examined. In some minds there is this very minute 'anusaya dhatu' left that they sometimes have the secret delight in seeing harm happening to others. Anatthakamatha..... ( anattha - harm ). This cheats them . The point here is to check whether what's operating is genuine apisunavacata or a cheating akusala. ( and to be aware of the kusala as kusala , and the akusala as akusala ) contd. 18. piyavadita patirupataya catukammata vangceti kusala piyavadita - when communicating with others it should be done in a pleasant , unharmful way. akusala catukammata - talking to please others in order to get favours, get the liking towards oneself. Some go to the extent of insulting, degrading oneself to keep the others on the higher position, so to please them. This can cheat as piyavadita. 19. mitabhanata patirupataya asammodana seelata vangceti kusala mitabhanata - talking only as needed, with great care. Most probably this results in less and less talk. akusala asammodana seelata - hating others, not having the tendency to develop metta. this akusala may cheat as mitabhanata. 20. sammodana seelata patirupataya maya satheyyangca vangceti kusala sammodana seelata - communicating pleasently with others with metta. akusala maya - hiding own defilements and bad qualities akusala satheyya - showing off that one has the good qualities that he doesnt have. One who has the intention to hide own faults talks about people who have that fault condemning them.So the listeners think that this 'guy' doesnt have such faults. One who likes to say that he has such and such (non-existant) good qualities, praises those qualities and advices others to have such good qualities, so the listners may assume that this 'guy' must have such good qualities. this maya and satheyya can cheat in the disguise of sammodana seelata. contd. 21. niggahavadita patirupataya parusavacata vangceti kusala niggahavadita - Condemning wrongful actions done by a person who is under the care ( ie student ), [focus is on the action not the person] as a help for guiding the person. [ by 'harshly' condemning the wrong action ] akusala parusavacata - this is using of harsh words. The internal tendency and the delight in using harsh words may cheat as niggahavadita.So the condemning with harsh words will focus on the person rather than on the deed. the point is to see whether , the arisen dhamma is either a kusala or an akusala, and being honest in understanding it. 22. papagarahita patirupataya paravajjanupassita vangceti kusala papagarahata - this is again condemning the evil deeds. And it is not done by aversion towards the evil deed or the evil doer . Papagarahata is used (even) by the Buddha. But some people may entertain dosa for the evil deeds done by others. And this is a severe akusala ( to let develop) on the part of the former.They give in for lot of dosa regarding others and their evil deeds., thereby abusing their own mind. Some may have the (hidden) tendency to search for others' wrong doings and the subsequent condemnation. This is the akusala of liking to condemn others - paravajjanupassita. and not the condemning of evils without dosa towards the deed or the doer.(papagarahata) and again the point is to find and be aware of any hidden akusala dhammas. (I am not very sure about whether 'condemn' is the right english word for the pali 'garaha' and 'niggaha'...or is it 'insulting'?) contd. 3545 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 0:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III 23. kulanuddayata patirupataya kulamacchariyam vangceti [friends , pls put the best english word for pali 'macchariya'..... ] kusala kulanuddayata - The monks/yogins/samanas should develop the compassion, anukampaa ( empathy ? ) etc for the lay people( kula ) who supply them with the basic commodities. Samanas get the help from the 'kula's to live the holylife effectively, and the kulas get the dhammadana, inspiration and guidence from the samanas.( the simile is how the bee collects nectar without harming the flower ) akusala kulamacchariya - the akusala macchariya regarding the kulas can arise in a samana. He may have the internal tendency to dislike the idea that the kulas who give the courtesy to him , doing the same to other samanas. But this kulamacchariya can disguise itself by appearing in the form of ' protecting the kulas from unknown dusseela monks'. 24. avasaciratthitikamata mukhena avasamacchariyam vanceti. [ and for 'avasa' too...] kusala avasaciratthitikamata - protecting and maintaining the avasas so the conditions favourable for the holylife will prevail for a long time. akusala avasamacchariya - not liking to share the avasa with fellow monks. Being restless at the idea of sharing the avasa with others. These types of cheating happen in minds of solitary monks.( The point is to see the danger as the hidden akusalas are being developed(upasampada) mistaking them as for kusalas.And another main point to recall again is that these are not the 'bad', 'unpleasant' types of people but the ones who have the intention to live the holylife accordingly and to develop kusala. ) 25. dhammaparibandha pariharana mukhena dhammamacchariyam vangceti. kusala dhammaparibandhapariharana - protecting the dhamma knowledge . Sometimes ones may wish to study dhamma in order to 'discover' the 'loop holes', 'business interests', potential 'business' ideas ,gateways, methods for winning popularity contests..etc and sometimes with the direct intention of harming the dhamma, and subsequently harm the propagation of true dhamma. Detecting these motives ( the motive! , focus is not on the person ) and being cautious in such situations is dhammaparibandhapariharana. [ pariharana - handling ( with care)]. akusala dhammamacchariya - and again!... macchariya regarding the dhamma knowledge.., not liking the idea of spreading and sharing it..as all forms of macchariyas are. contd. 26. dhammadesanabhirati mukhena bhassaramata vangceti. kusala dhammadesanabhirati - 'liking' to do dhamma katha , preachings akusala bhassaramata - 'talkative'-ness with useless thiracchina talks. ( useless talks with a 'dhamma' wrapper ) 27. gananuggahakarana mukhena samganikaramata vangceti. kusala gananuggahakarana - maintaining 'anuggaha' to others. (anuggaha- helping,assisting,progressive company gana- groups etc... egroups? ) akusala samganikaramata - mere 'social'-ness , hidden attachment to company and social activities. when cheated by this the samanas divert from the essencial components of effective living, ie study, samatha & vipassana... 28. punnakamata patirupataya kammaramata vangceti. kusala punnakamata - 'desire' to do good deeds(punna). ( in order to maintain a hiccup-free lifeflux so the internal search for truth can be effectively continued.) akusala kammaramata - desire in building and construction works of temples, ponds, aramas..etc. Some samanas got the hidden tendency to attach to these types of work. And also got the hidden tendency to divert from study of the dhamma,contemplation,dhammadesana,samatha & vipassana. So cheated they develop an unskillful dhamma thinking that its a skill .( punnakamata ) contd. 29. samvega patirupataya cittasantapo vangceti samvega - the (g)nana that sees the dukkha in the world as a 'bhaya' and a danger cittasantapa - the sadness in the mind, on dukkhas in the life/s of oneself and others ( relatives, friends, ppl who have interest..) samvega is not associated with dosa . It is what triggers the search for truth and renunciation. citta santapa is an akusala associated with dosa. The check is to observe the situation on seeing the dukkhas faced by neutral beings. 30. saddhaluta patirupataya aparikkhata vangceti saddaluta - liking to see persons with high virtue, liking association of them, liking treating them. aparikkhata - Most people may show a face of high virtue just for enjoying the high gains associated with it. venerating all of them without actually finding out the facts is not a skill. this may cheat as saddhaluta. 31. vimamsana patirupataya assaddhiyam vangceti vimamsana - inquiring, searching in order to take examples of the lifestyles and virtues of venerable ones. assaddhi - Not liking to see, associate,venerate persons with high qualities and virtue. when cheated by this one's time 'expires' only and simply(uselessly) for the false 'viamamsana'. contd. 32. attadhipateyyata patirupataya garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita vangceti attadhipateyyata - Giving the due careful consideration for the facts spoken and taught by others., thereby taking the takable and leaving out the non-takable. garunam anusasaniya appadakkhinaggahita - Not taking the advice of teachers. The 'know all' type. Associated with atimaana and thambha ( non-flexibility ) . In refined form this may cheat as attadhipateyya. 33. dhammadhipateyyata patirupataya sabrahmacarisu agaarawam vangceti dhammadhipateyyata - Keeping the dhamma study, seela and bhavana at the top, first priority, above the rest. agaaravam sabrahmacarisu - not giving the respect and care for the sabrahmacarins ( samanas who practice holylife with one )( other samanas in the sangha community) The person may isolate himself from the brethern , even without doing the essential sangha karmas, vinaya karmas,.This will be disadvantageous for the cheated mind. contd. Contd. 34. Lokadhipateyyata patirupataya attani dhammeca paribhavo vangceti Lokadhipateyyata - No one can 'customize' the world according to his/her liking. One has to adjust his/her lifestyle so he/she can live without conflict. attani dhammeca paribhavo - When 'adjusting with the world' the moral decipline and qualities should not be harmed. Theres the possibility of the internal cheat that tendency to go along the modernisation and the subsequent adjusting may result in the harm to the morals. 35. mettayana mukhena raago vangceti. raga as the metta - > refer to visuddhimagga for a story regarding this 36. karunayana mukhena soko vangceti. sorrow as compassion 37. muditavihara patirupataya pahaso vangceti mudita - opponent of jealousy.... pahasa- the 'sapitika tanha' based on the 'subha' arammanas of satva and sankharas. 38. upekkhavihara patirupataya kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata vangceti kusalesu dhammesu nikkhittachandata - 'losing hope' in kusala kamma/kusalacchanda...the cheated can live without 'trying' for dhammastudy, bhavana..he thinks hes developing upekkha. End. Theres a chance that even the writer may be under the influence of a vangcaka. The Citta is so diverse and the number of cheating dhammas is incalculable. The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be aware of it, and beware. 3546 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 1:20pm Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III > The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be > aware > of it, and beware. Dear Gayan, It's great to see the whole list and your translations and comments again, I had printed them all out for the committee at that foundation who studied them all as well as the ones Robert sent. They decided to translate strictly what was in the Netti's commentaries, but your translations and comments were carefully examined, anumodana again for introducing it to us. Just a detail about the book, did you translate it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of your comments? It was remarked during the discussions that we could not determine where the book ended and your comments began. I think it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already laid out. Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, Amara 3547 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 2:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I Gayan Many thanks for this. It will be good to have the whole work in one place. Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the examples and explanatory notes given are the work of the author/translator writing in recent times. Is this correct? Jon --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > Extremely sorry for the Late reply > > ( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] ) > > Heres the concatenated list > 3548 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 3:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard >----------------------------------------------------- >Howard: > Thanks. Since I wrote you, I *was* able to > access the posts by such > numbering. > ---------------------------------------------------- Jon: Good. I know how frustrating it is when you can’t find something you know is there somewhere. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava' > as 'individual essence'. > In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of > Discrimination), in section 5 (on > "voidness in change"), it is written that "Born > materiality [and also born > feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual > essence; ...". In the > note after this treatise which refers to what I just > quoted, it glosses > 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising > of itself" or "own > essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: > "Because of existence in > dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) > there is in it no essence > by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of > individual essence'. > What is meant is that it is void of essence by > itself or of its own essence > ..." > This strikes me as little different from the > Mahayana notion of > lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also > inferred the position of all > conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the > writings of the modern > Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as > the monk/scholar and > abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there > certainly does exist a strain > of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the > Theravadin tradition, > there are contrary strains to be found as well, it > seems. >----------------------------------------------------- Jon: It’s beginning to look as though there might be a significant difference between Path of Discrimination (P.Dis) and the texts I am familiar with ie Vissuddhimagga (Vis) and Abhidhammattha Sangaha (A-S) on this point. The latter 2 do not regard “arising dependent on conditions” and “having individual essence”, as that term is defined, as being mutually exclusive. All mundane realities are both conditioned and with individual essence. (Note that “essence” in this context has nothing to do with essence in the sense of soul or essential being.) As I understand it, “individual essence” is what distinguishes a reality from a concept. Every reality has both a distinct (visesa) characteristic that distinguishes it from all other realities and also the universal characteristics of annicca, dukkha and annatta. These different lakkhana (characteristics) are all capable of being known by panna which is sufficiently developed. (I hope I’m not mixing up totally different attributes here – lakkhana and sabhava. Nit-pickers welcome to come in with corrections). Concepts, being like “a shadow”, have no characteristic that is capable of being understood by panna. They are abhava (without individual essence). I have not seen them described as having the characteristic of impermanence or any of the other tri-lakkhana, either. As a matter of interest, does P.Dis make reference to concepts? If so, how does it distinguish them from realities? Thanks for bringing up this interesting text. Jon 3549 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 5:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Jina Thanks for coming in on this, and for your useful contributions to the list. --- wrote: > hello Jon, > I have tried to find these passages in another > rending of the > Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma > (the Nārada > tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali > sections being > quoted here, to help me find the passages in > question? I will check this out at the first opportunity. The passage quoted is from commentarial material, so it will be a matter of whether the Narada translation has included this particular material. > yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that > closes > with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found > interesting was > the idea that through supermundane jhanic states, > permanent > elimination of defilements would/could occur. I > suppose that > we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the > āsavas) here. > most striking a passage! Your note is also > interesting: what > would you suggest is the relation between jhāna > citta and > magga citta that you are pointing to here? > I wait to hear more here. thank you. > Jinavamsa I know this is a little confusing, but "supramundane jhanas of the path" in the text is not a reference to jhanic states. It is a reference to magga citta ie. enlightenment. It includes the magga citta of one who has not attained jhana, as well as one who has. Looked at in this light, the passage is not so much pointing to a relationship as to a difference. Indeed, read in the context of the passage as a whole it in fact points to the lack of a special relationship between jhana citta and magga citta. This difference between supramundane jhana (magga citta whether or not preceded by jhana) and [mundane] jhana citta is crucial to the proper understanding of references in the suttas to, eg., factors of the 8-fold path. I don't know if this has made things any clearer. Jon 3550 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 10:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path Kom --- Kom Tukovinit wrote: > Dear Jonathan, > > I did enjoy this post. I have a question for you. Glad you enjoyed it. I sense a tough one coming up... > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane > > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in > the > > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are > well > > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on > the > > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the > deep > > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] > > At the supramundane moments (magga and pala), I > understand that wisdom > (panna) basically cognizes Nibhanna as it truly is. > Would you explain > what the comm. means when it says "wisdom fathoming > the deep > significance of the Four Noble Truths?" It appears > to me that only one > noble truth is known at the moments. The first two > noble truths are > already known (to a degree) even before the > supramundane moments. The > maggha is known only after the supramundane moments. Just as I feared! The short answer is, I don’t know. My best guess is as follows. We know that it is not until the moment of magga citta that the 3 characteristics common to all realities are fully realised and also the remaining attachment and ignorance are finally eradicated. Could one or both of these be regarded as "the deep significance of the Four Noble Truths"? Just pondering the first and last sentences in your last paragraph. You appear to be drawing a distinction between panna cognizing Nibbana at moment of path citta and magga being known only after path citta. I am out of my depth here. Will keep my eyes open for some relevant references and come back if I find any. Jon 3551 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 1:01am Subject: Q&A9 Dear friends, We have just finished uploading Q&A9, with slight editing. If anyone else would like to help this friend please post the messages here or send them to me off list, I will add them to the website as well as send them in private. I thought that since the questioner was able to find the website and ask in a coherent if repetitive language, that the answers might be able to get through and give some comfort. If anyone would like to add anything else I would be more than happy to forward the messages, Thanks in advance and anumodana in your kusala cetana, those who have already written, Amara 3552 From: Date: Wed Feb 21, 2001 8:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/21/01 2:34:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > > Howard: > > The glossary gives the meaning of 'sabhaava' > > as 'individual essence'. > > In the Treatise on Voidness (of the Path of > > Discrimination), in section 5 (on > > "voidness in change"), it is written that "Born > > materiality [and also born > > feeling, perception, etc, etc] is void of individual > > essence; ...". In the > > note after this treatise which refers to what I just > > quoted, it glosses > > 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising > > of itself" or "own > > essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: > > "Because of existence in > > dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) > > there is in it no essence > > by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of > > individual essence'. > > What is meant is that it is void of essence by > > itself or of its own essence > > ..." > > This strikes me as little different from the > > Mahayana notion of > > lacking own-being (asvabhaava, SKT). I have also > > inferred the position of all > > conditioned dhammas lacking own being in the > > writings of the modern > > Theravadin academician, David Kaluphana, as well as > > the monk/scholar and > > abhidhammika, Nyanaponika Thera. So while there > > certainly does exist a strain > > of pluralistic realism to be found in aspects of the > > Theravadin tradition, > > there are contrary strains to be found as well, it > > seems. > >----------------------------------------------------- > > Jon: > Itā€™s beginning to look as though there might be a > significant difference between Path of Discrimination > (P.Dis) and the texts I am familiar with ie > Vissuddhimagga (Vis) and Abhidhammattha Sangaha (A-S) > on this point. > > The latter 2 do not regard ā€œarising dependent on > conditionsā€ and ā€œhaving individual essenceā€, as that > term is defined, as being mutually exclusive. All > mundane realities are both conditioned and with > individual essence. (Note that ā€œessenceā€ in this > context has nothing to do with essence in the sense of > soul or essential being.) > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to be a rather fine distinction. --------------------------------------------------------------- > > As I understand it, ā€œindividual essenceā€ is what > distinguishes a reality from a concept. > > Every reality has both a distinct (visesa) > characteristic that distinguishes it from all other > realities and also the universal characteristics of > annicca, dukkha and annatta. These different lakkhana > (characteristics) are all capable of being known by > panna which is sufficiently developed. (I hope Iā€™m > not mixing up totally different attributes here ā€“ > lakkhana and sabhava. Nit-pickers welcome to come in > with corrections). ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, indeed I see a difference between concepts/percepts and non-mental experiences such as experiences of sounds, sights, feelings etc. But the difference to me is one of directness vs indirectness. Sounds, sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they are their own referents, whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond themselves. Such referents "pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct elements of experience - they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the suchness/actuality of the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see the matter. But concepts themselves, and not their inferred referents, are mental objects which surely *should* be able to be observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct seeing acccompanied by wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Concepts, being like ā€œa shadowā€, have no > characteristic that is capable of being understood by > panna. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as I wrote above, I question that. ------------------------------------------------------------------- They are abhava (without individual essence). I have not seen them described as having the > characteristic of impermanence or any of the other > tri-lakkhana, either. > > As a matter of interest, does P.Dis make reference to > concepts? If so, how does it distinguish them from > realities? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm slowly wading through the text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on Voidness because of my particular interest.) ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for bringing up this interesting text. > -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, it was brought to my attention on this list .. by Robert, I think. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3553 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 0:50am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Jon, Thanks for replying. My understanding is derived from: http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat8.html. The followings are (long and very technical) quotes from the page. The texts in [] are my comments. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott wisdom fathoming the > > deep > > > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] My guess for the passage meaning is that it doesn't specifically talk about the magga vithi realizing the full significance of the four noble truth, but rather, all the accumulation including the vipassana nana, magga vithi, and the paccavekkana-vithi would complete the full realization of the four noble truths. [Start Quoting (in parts)] [accumulation toward nibhanna] When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 8 constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika, samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise to clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi through the mano-dvara: [3 bhavanga instants] Bhavanga as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. Bhavanga-calana as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the bhavanga.) Bhavangupaccheda as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the bhavanga.) [vithi cittas begin] Mano-dvaravajjana as kiriya-citta. [javana cittas begin] [3 javana cittas cognizing one of three common characteristics] Parikamma as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta. Upacara as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) Anuloma as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) [4 instants of citta cognizing Nibhanna] Javana - Gotrabhu as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) [magga and pala cittas congizing Nibhanna] Sotapattimagga-citta as lokuttara-citta. Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. [javana ends] Bhavanga-citta as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. [magga vithi ends] [5 citta-vithi vara cognizing magga, phala, and others] When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would arise for several instants in continuation. Then the paccavekkana-vithi would arise to examine the magga-citta for an instant, the phala-citta another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, the remaining kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of paccavekkana-vithi. After the magga-vithi has fallen away, the paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in sequence. Therefore, the ariya-puggala would not mistake the status of his attainment so that the sotapanna would not mistake himself for the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami, the anagami, the arahanta likewise. [The page also describe the vipassana nana associated with magga vithi starting from Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana, to the Phala-nana: the fifteenth vipassana-nana. It finally describes the 16th nana: Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth vipassana-nana.] kom 3554 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:17am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A special problem Dear Amara & Varee, --- Amara wrote: > Dear Friends, > > This morning I received the following e-mail through > the website, and > Varee thought that it might be good to put the > answer up as Q&A9. This is an interesting question and what is most interesting is that the questioner was able to find your site and to ask the question and have such interest in the Buddha's teachings. I'm just reflecting on the essays we used to write on the meaning of intelligence when I studied psychology and how different those ideas were from what is considered intelligence from a Buddhist point of view. Yes, we can have fully functioning brains and be extremely smart conventionally, both academically or street-wise, but with no inkling of what is worthy in life in any sense. As a result of good kamma and other conditions one can be well-educated and live in comfortable surroundings with good opportunities and yet fritter life away, performing lots of akusala kamma and not developing any understanding. As you point out, only any real wisdom that understands the realities that make up our lives can be passed on to new lives. Conventional intelligence and knowledge of concepts will all be lost. Rather than worrying about the future or wishing for this or that result in future, the most important thing is to understand life at this moment. What is life at this moment? Life at this moment consists of the mental and physical phenomena that we read about throughout the Buddha's teachings. Whether we are rich or poor, well-educated or not, brain-damaged or not, there is seeing now, hearing now, visible object which is seen, sound which is heard and so on. These are the real phenomena which can be understood when awareness is aware of them. Even for someone with dementia, there are different moments and there may be moments of awareness in between the forgetful ones. Instead of wishing for mental and physical attributes which we don't have, isn't it more valuable to appreciate the opportunity we are given now to develop a little wisdom? Amara & Varee, thanks for posting the qu and for your detailed and helpful answer. If you wish to share any points from this post, pls feel free to edit and share with the reader in any way you like. I wonder if he/she would be interested to correspond with us further here, having got as far as your website so well? Best regards, Sarah p.s Varee, looking forward to your short intro on list, too!!! You're a very quiet lurker for sure! 3555 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 3:27am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting or offering my brains in a silver plate Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Sarah and dear group > > Sorry for the delay in answering but I have been > pretty engaged in other > fields and could not dedicate much time or energy on > the list. Please don't worry about this ever! There are no time limits and I'm often very slow myself. Actually I'm only tapping away now thanks to being woken up in the middle of the night by an incoming fax and then reflecting on Amara's post and this one... > Well here I am now. Even if I wonder... apart for > few people here if my > sharing can be of interest for the mental setting of > this list, I feel a bit > displaced to be very honest with you. Displaced people are very welcome here! As you've suggested before, the displaced with little Pali knowledge or expertise probably make up the majority, so feel right at home! Actually some of the pali experts probably feel rather displaced too, as it can be as hard for them to find an English equivalent for the Pali words (not to mention the Thai, Swahili or whatever) as it can be for your band of displaced to quickly find a meaning in a glossary for the Pali terms. > I will try replying in different mails, focusing on > the various issues you > proposed Sarah. Thanks Cybele, I think this may be interesting for many of our wierd and wonderful members..take your time! (Afterwards I reflected that I'd asked too many questions at one go anyway). > > > >First questions: what is the present moment? What > does > >it mean to be aware of the present moment? > > > For me, for my understanding and sensitivity > 'present moment' means taking > each moment as a single moment, without worrying > about future implications > or connecting with past recollections as far as I > manage to remain on focus > in the unfolding reality of what is happening here > and now in my life and > engaged in dealing with such events with a clear, > attentive mind to > penetrate the significance of that while > experiencing it. > It means if I am taking a shower I am totally there, > if I am enjoying a > sunset on the beach I totally surrender to it, > without evaluating that much > but just being there present to sensations, > emotions, thoughts related to > that moment, breathing the reality of that moment. > Not being 'lost' there but mindful of what is going > on. > Somehow not approaching events with a discoursive > mind but just a naked > mind, bare attention. > Living each moment in wholeheartedness. > Hope my clumsy English can ben sufficient to uncover > what I mean to > communicate. Your English is not clumsy at all and your meaning is very clear and I understand this approach well. It's good you appreciate that in reality there only ever is the present moment. What happened before is gone and the future which we so easily dwell on hasn't come yet. We have no idea what will happen at the next moment, let alone the next life. Having agreed so far and sharing confidence in the value of being aware or mindful at this moment, I think we can go a little further. We have an idea that we can be mindful while taking a shower or of eating a meal or 'being present' as you describe while watching a sunset. I agree with you that there can be awareness at any of these times and that we shouldn't wait for other times at all. However, if we understand more about what awareness is and what it can be aware of, then this will be the way it can develop further. So whilst watching the sunset, there are many moments of seeing, of that which is seen (we usually refer to this as visible object), thinking about the story, the concept of the sunset and of course many, many moments of atachment (lobha in Pali). Like you say, this is the present moment and usually when we talk about surrendering to it or living with 'wholeheartedness', don't we mean following the attachments at that moment? I don't mean to say there shouldn't be desires and attachments because of course there will be all the time. It's just that the more understanding there is of the present moment (and I don't mean by analysing and deduction ), the more honest we can be about what really makes up our lives now. There is a good article 'Be Here Now' on the Dhammastudy website by Phra Dhammadharo which I think you'd find quite easy and interesting to read. I forget the section it's in for now. > > >Why does homelessness prevent grasping? > > > Sure Sarah, homelessness prevents grasping a lot, at > least that is my > experience. For example you are an expatriate, it's > quite a different > condition from being a nomadic like me. > You are destabilized as well but you settle down and > make a conscious effort > to integrate in a new country, in a new society and > culture. > I don't have a family or a house or a career, I am > totaly unsafe according > with social values, emarginated from the usual ways. > I am lead an itinerant life and there are no plans, > no routes. > No reference points, nothing to get stuck in, in an > objective reality. > I live in uncharted territory, there is no comfort > zone to go and relax. > I am exposed and live day by day; I am anacronistic. > I just keep going, I cannot hide or feel protected. > That's what I mean for drifting away. > A bit like going with the stream, not opposing too > much resistance. This is a very interesting perspective and I confess I also enjoy nomadic travelling and certainly have done my fair share of it (including 2 yrs in India and Sri Lanka living in temples and Tibetan tents with very little money- but now you remind me, that was more than 25yrs ago...). Sigh... The truth is that we all lead different lifestyles according to our different interests and habits and as a result of many other factors. Nothing could be more international than a list of members like this one. We may have very little in common with each other except for our sincere interest in studying the Buddha's teachings and applying them to these different lifestyles. As an itinerant nomadic all those years ago, there were experiences of seeing, hearing, desires, upsets, and all the same pheonmena which could be known as there are now while I'm comfortably settled in a nice apartment in Hong Kong. Just because I'm surrounded by my own furniture, have a realatively secure income and a husband as companion, doesn't mean there is necessarily any more or less attachment or 'exposure'. We are all exposed at every moment to all these different phemomena that make up our lives and which can slowly be understood better. In the Buddha's time too, there were kings and ministers and there were travellers and beggars. The development of understanding didn't depend on these outer appearances at all. When I realised that there was no 'right' lifestyle and one's location, work, wealth (or lack of it) were not impediments in any way to the development of awareness and wisdom it seemed like the most wonderful freedom to me. If I was never able to travel again or never able to see another sunset, it might be disappointing to the lobha (attachment) but wouldn't matter in the slightest in any way that really mattered. I understand what Camus was saying too, but we don't have to go looking for special experiences and to be unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be experiences to be known. There are always experiences at this moment. Does this make sense? > > Well perhaps is not buddhist language but is what I > feel. > Therefore homelessness for me is a prevention for > clinging. > It helps a lot. The development of understanding is the only real long-term prevention, but not by wishing to have less attachment or by trying... >> > Sarah I have to use a conventional language; there > are not expressions for > the non self. I cannot relate to a bunch of mental > and emotional reactions > and cognitions that keeps going, I refer to it as I, > me. Yes, it's the understanding of the words rather than the words themselves that's important. Is there any idea of someone who has bare attention, who observes, who surrenders.....? > Surrender to the present moment means letting go, > not grasping or judging > too much, acnowledging that reality is not solid, is > transforming, is > unfolding therefore we don't have to take rigid, > intransigent positions > about anything but 'dance according with the > rhythm', being open mind and > heart to welcome life and it's challenges or > queries. Cybele, I like your 'open mind' approach and please keep responding in your own language. I apologise for my very unpoetic, rambling style, but I think you know that I'm sincerely enjoying having the discussion with you. Like Amara, I would highly recommend that you visit Bangkok whenever you can to spend time with Khun Sujin. She's very pleasant and always welcoming and I know you'd get on very well together. She's met all the wierd and wonderful and has been my good friend and teacher for a very long time. She'll enjoy your humour and ways of expression too. Taking Amara up on her offer to meet you and take you along to the Centre (Foundation) would make it very easy. > > > Okay, now I have to interrupt but I will relate to > the other issues you > propose in a further mail. > I am sorry if my language is not attuned with your > expertize but just I > cannot relate with that kind of rational and > detached approach, very > adherent to a textual evidence in order to avoid > misleading. > Meaning I respect it but it's not my approach. > I follow my understanding of the teachings, meaning > what I have experienced > and I cannot act a knowledge that I did not realize > inside me. > Excellent! All styles are very welcome! Bye for now, (hopefully some good sleep for me now...3.15a.m.!) Sarah 3556 From: Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 2:21am Subject: I am back, ? drinking. Hi all, I just got back. There are too many messages on the e-group for me to keep up with. Anyway, I tried to read some. Well, I probably just roll on with new mails. Since I just got back from my vacation. Let me start by quoting Sarah's mail. <> Well, from my accumulation, I like traveling, like to see different things, cultures, civilizations and people. When I travel I see some similarity, diversity and controversy in human nature and culture. And even more fascinating, at times I have learned something new about myself as well. That's the view of my world but as you said the reality are always here and now. No matter how far I go, I will not get away from my accumulation, kusula or akusula always accompanies no matter where I go. Well, let me ask basic question about 5 basic precepts. I know that It's very difficult to keep the precept all the time. There are always causes and conditions or temptation both internally and externally distracted me. I don't know I think someone probably posted this kind of question before. Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me drinking Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a minor drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal to sip some good wine with a good dinner. Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. Glad to join the group again. Num 3557 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:00am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas [I began this reply several weeks ago and never sent it (I don't think). Apologies for the delay.] Dear Alex and Jon, --- <> wrote: > > > However, is it > > > true > > > that sati may > > > arise easier when the environment around us more > > > peaceful? --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > It is tempting to think that this must be so. But > > it > > is not supported anywhere in the teachings, as far > > as > > I am aware. The more I read and consider this, the more I'm convinced Jon's right. I think the confusion arises because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even to laypeople) which were not directly related to cultivation of the eightfold path. For example, the Buddha often recommended the observance of Uposatha to laypeople, as in: "...Hence indeed the woman and the man who are virtuous enter on uposatha having eight parts and having made merits bringing forth happiness blameless they obtain heavenly abodes." Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43 Visakhuposatha Sutta The Discourse to Visakha on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html Here the Buddha is clearly talking about cultivation of the brahma viharas, a kind of samatha bhavana. And in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom, "...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time." Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43 Visakhuposatha Sutta The Discourse to Visakha on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that time'--that is, temporary suppression of the defilements rather than eradication of them, so still not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not leading to the cessation of suffering). Yet there can be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these practices here and many places elsewhere. Well, for what it's worth, mike 3558 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon & Dan, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Presumably the fact that it is one of the cetasikas > (mental factors) that arises with the 8-fold path > citta (moment of consciousness) is not the answer > you > are looking for. Could you please amplify a little? Sorry to butt in here, but this touches on something I've been thinking about. Jon, I've found your comments on the cittas of the eightfold path interesting and illuminating. However, I also have a strong sense that sometimes, when the Buddha talked about 'right speech', or 'right livelhood, for example, he was talking about something much more mundane than the cittas approaching ariyan states. (Otherwise, the eightfold path means nothing until it's almost perfected, except as a theoretical concept.) If this is true, then isn't it also true of the other path factors? Couldn't this just be a matter of 'levels' of understanding, with a very mundane eightfold path at the bottom (coarse and conceptual) and the cittas and cetasikas preceding ariyan states at the top (refined and direct)? mike 3559 From: Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:44am Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path hello Jon, thank you very much for this information. I am not familiar with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a jhanic state. Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see no reference to it in some of the resource material I have here. I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or if it has an earlier presence. It is, though, interesting that when terms are used in two senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi has both a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold path, similarly, for example.) What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of jhana? (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a question?) thank you for these clarifications. jinavamsa ============ --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Jina > > Thanks for coming in on this, and for your useful > contributions to the list. > > --- <> wrote: > hello Jon, > > I have tried to find these passages in another > > rending of the > > Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma > > (the Nārada > > tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali > > sections being > > quoted here, to help me find the passages in > > question? > > I will check this out at the first opportunity. The > passage quoted is from commentarial material, so it > will be a matter of whether the Narada translation has > included this particular material. > > > yes, I did find it interesting, esp. the part that > > closes > > with your tag identifier [5.2]. What I found > > interesting was > > the idea that through supermundane jhanic states, > > permanent > > elimination of defilements would/could occur. I > > suppose that > > we are talking about the kilesas (or perhaps the > > āsavas) here. > > most striking a passage! Your note is also > > interesting: what > > would you suggest is the relation between jhāna > > citta and > > magga citta that you are pointing to here? > > I wait to hear more here. thank you. > > Jinavamsa > > I know this is a little confusing, but "supramundane > jhanas of the path" in the text is not a reference to > jhanic states. It is a reference to magga citta ie. > enlightenment. It includes the magga citta of one who > has not attained jhana, as well as one who has. > > Looked at in this light, the passage is not so much > pointing to a relationship as to a difference. > Indeed, read in the context of the passage as a whole > it in fact points to the lack of a special > relationship between jhana citta and magga citta. > > This difference between supramundane jhana (magga > citta whether or not preceded by jhana) and [mundane] > jhana citta is crucial to the proper understanding of > references in the suttas to, eg., factors of the > 8-fold path. > > I don't know if this has made things any clearer. > > Jon 3560 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:13am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: [mike wrote]: > > I take it that we can no more choose to 'consider' > > or to 'apply' than > > we can choose, for example, to 'cause mindfulness > > to > > arise before > > us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' > > must > > arise because of > > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). > > Yes, precisely. Does this make sense? Yes... > So viraya arising at other moments of citta would > not > be samma vayama of the 8-fold path. > > I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult > area. Yes it does, thanks. But, to echo a very recent post, does this really mean that all of the path factors 'exist' (or were meant) only as extremely refined mental moments and factors, arising only very near awakening? Or did the Buddha also intend a more mundane meaning for the eightfold path, for those (like myself) only beginning to understand? I know that a lot of people see it this way. Do you think this is a complete misunderstanding, a misinterpretation of the discourses? A pretty big one, if so (and maybe a big new can of worms)... mike 3561 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Abhidhamma - Then & now Dear Jon, --- wrote: > My apologies for not following up on this sooner, > especially as your > points are very interesting ones. (I'm afraid I > have many more > unanswered posts where this one has been resting.) Never a problem, sir... > Yes. But our 'affinity for impermanence' is at a > relatively superficial level. It is not the panna > which experiences, for example, seeing as seeing and > at the same time has penetrated the true nature of > that reality to the degree that the characteristic of > impermanence is known. > > Well, no, I'm convinced of that--partly because of > > the duration of what we're talking about. Any real > > dhamma is an oh-my-gosh gazillion times gone > > before we can possibly reflect on it. So > > understanding, as the likes of myself can talk > > about, it is always and only > > at the conceptual level. Is it reasonable to hope > > for pariyatti vs. pańńatti, here? Is paritatti not > > preferrable? Or is this yet another dead end? > Understanding at an intellectual level is a basis, a > necessary basis, > for understanding at a more direct level to arise in > due course, so > it is by no means to be sneezed at. And this in > turn means we need > not despair of the possibility of direct awareness > at some level, no > matter how weak, arising. As we have discussed in > another context > (suta- vs. cinta- vs. bhavana-maya-panna), > intellectual understanding > continues to be developed, and to be a condition for > understanding at > a more direct level, on and on. > > I guess what I had in mind here was, If 'we' have > > an affinity for the tilakkhana now, doesn't that > > suggest some previous 'accumulation'? > Yes, indeed it does. But is it understanding that > is derived direct knowledge of realities? Or is it > understanding mostly at an intellectual level, > from considering and reflecting on the teachings > generally and the tilakkhana (the characteristics of > anicca, dukkha and anatta) in particular? > > No doubt. What I'm guessing is that understanding > > at the intellectual level is conditioned by > > imperceptible specks of real satipańńaa in an > > ocean of pańńatti. > > If not, why is there any intellectual understanding > > at all? Is intellectual understanding no different > > from intellectual misunderstanding? > Yes, I'm sure this is right. The different kinds or > levels of > understanding mutually support and condition each > other. > > If it's true that we don't carry 'stories' from > > one life to the next, but only pańńaa? Or is this > > just sankharuppadana (or something like that)? > But even though there is panna, panna of what level > and stage of development? > > Well, isn't some, at any level, better than none, > > at any level? > Indeed. I was only seeking to draw a distinction > between the quality > of the panna of beings living during the Buddha's > lifetime and > beings > living today. > > Thanks as always for 'your' patience(!) > Well, thanks for your patience also, and anumodana > in your interest. > > And yours, sir... mike 3562 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:12am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas --- "m. nease" wrote: And > in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom, > > > "...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not > exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on > sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & > distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist > at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is > unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & > distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at > that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & > remains in seclusion & rapture, these five > possibilities do not exist at that time." > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43 > Visakhuposatha Sutta > The Discourse to Visakha > on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html > > Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that > time'--that is, temporary suppression of the > defilements rather than eradication of them, so still > not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not > leading to the cessation of suffering). Yet there can > be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these > practices here and many places elsewhere. > > Well, for what it's worth, Dear Mike, Thank you. It's a very worthy post you have. Yes, I see that "at that time" is really emphasized here. Anumodana to your good thought, Alex 3563 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:14am Subject: Re: A special problem > This is an interesting question and what is most > interesting is that the questioner was able to find > your site and to ask the question and have such > interest in the Buddha's teachings. Dear Sarah, I thought as much but then I remembered the story someone posted about the 'slow' and intelligent brothers and how the slow one was handed a piece of cloth by the Buddha and attained arahantship before the 'bright' one did, or the one about the leperous beggar who became an arahanta. Which is why one should never presume about anyone else's accumulations, if they show the slightest interest I would help them to the best of my abilities. Again, it might profit others with the same type of problems, as Varee said. About Varee, she says she is too busy to join the group, I have been asking her from the start. You might want to ask her yourself, her e-mail is she is not the lurker type, she is a very popular university professor, although she does not like to go out much. In these ten years and more since my mother lunches with Khun Sujin every month, she came with Khun Sujin and her sister only three times, although she is one of my mother's great favorites. Last time she had only the free day to help me with the glossary and Charupan asked us out, she wouldn't join us and had the cook make lunch for her instead, saying she had much to do! So Charupan came back and chatted with us for the afternoon. She's completely cured by the way, and has been to Iran earlier this month, has been all over Thailand this month and is going to Greece next month!!! When she said she was traveling again we were all very happy indeed!!! Amara > I'm just reflecting on the essays we used to write on > the meaning of intelligence when I studied psychology > and how different those ideas were from what is > considered intelligence from a Buddhist point of view. > Yes, we can have fully functioning brains and be > extremely smart conventionally, both academically or > street-wise, but with no inkling of what is worthy in > life in any sense. > > As a result of good kamma and other conditions one can > be well-educated and live in comfortable surroundings > with good opportunities and yet fritter life away, > performing lots of akusala kamma and not developing > any understanding. > > As you point out, only any real wisdom that > understands the realities that make up our lives can > be passed on to new lives. Conventional intelligence > and knowledge of concepts will all be lost. > > Rather than worrying about the future or wishing for > this or that result in future, the most important > thing is to understand life at this moment. What is > life at this moment? Life at this moment consists of > the mental and physical phenomena that we read about > throughout the Buddha's teachings. Whether we are rich > or poor, well-educated or not, brain-damaged or not, > there is seeing now, hearing now, visible object which > is seen, sound which is heard and so on. These are the > real phenomena which can be understood when awareness > is aware of them. Even for someone with dementia, > there are different moments and there may be moments > of awareness in between the forgetful ones. > > Instead of wishing for mental and physical attributes > which we don't have, isn't it more valuable to > appreciate the opportunity we are given now to develop > a little wisdom? > > Amara & Varee, thanks for posting the qu and for your > detailed and helpful answer. If you wish to share any > points from this post, pls feel free to edit and share > with the reader in any way you like. I wonder if > he/she would be interested to correspond with us > further here, having got as far as your website so > well? > > Best regards, > > Sarah > > p.s Varee, looking forward to your short intro on > list, too!!! You're a very quiet lurker for sure! 3564 From: <> Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Jon, Thank you for this interesting and excellent post. I already printed it out so that I can review it in the future. Metta, Alex --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Mike, Dan, Bruce and Alex > > I was looking for something on sukkhavipassaka when I > came across this passage from the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha and commentaries, in the translation `A > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma' (BPS). While it > discusses the dry insight attainer, it also has > something to say on the subject of jhana and vipassana > generally which we have discussed recently. > > The passage that follows is directly from the book > (CMA Ch. I, Guide to ##30-31). The numbers in square > brackets are markers to my own comments/summary at the > end. > > =============================== > All meditators reach the supramundane paths and fruits > through the development of wisdom (panna) – insight > into the three characteristics of impermanence, > suffering, and non-self. [1] > > However, they differ among themselves in the degree of > their development of concentration (samadhi). Those > who develop insight without a basis of jhana are > called practitioners of bare insight > (sukkhavipassaka). [2] When they reach the path and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > Those who develop insight on the basis of jhana attain > a path and fruit which corresponds to the level of > jhana they had attained before reaching the path. ... > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > > The supramundane jhanas of the paths and fruits differ > from the mundane jhanas in several important respects. > [5] > First, whereas the mundane jhanas take as their object > some concept, such as the sign of the kasina, the > supramundane jhanas take as their object Nibbana, the > unconditioned reality. [5.1] > Second, whereas the mundane jhanas merely suppress the > defilements while leaving their underlying seeds > intact, the supramundane jhanas of the path eradicate > defilements so that they can never again arise. [5.2] > Third, while the mundane jhanas lead to rebirth in the > fine material world and thus sustain existence in the > round of rebirths, the jhanas of the path cut off the > fetters binding one to the cycle and thus issue in > liberation from the round of birth and death. [5.3] > Finally, whereas the role of wisdom in the mundane > jhanas is subordinate to that of concentration, in the > supramundane jhanas wisdom and concentration are well > balanced, with concentration fixing the mind on the > unconditioned element and wisdom fathoming the deep > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] > =================================== > Notes: > 1. It is the development of understanding of the > characteristics of reality that leads to the > attainment of the path/enlightenment/8-fold path citta > (magga citta). > 2. Development of concentration to the level of jhana > is not necessary for attaining magga citta. > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > `corresponds to' the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to `correspond to' jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > 5. There are, however, 4 important differences > between jhana citta and the path citta – > 5.1. The object of jhana citta is a concept , while > the object of the moment of path citta is Nibbana. > 5.2. Jhana cittas merely suppress kilesa, while > magga citta eradicates kilesa. > 5.3. Jhana cittas are a condition for future > rebirth, whereas magga cittas result in liberation > from the cycle of birth and death. > 5.4. The primary attribute of a moment of jhana > citta is the degree of concentration on the object at > that moment, whereas the attribute of a moment of > magga citta is the wisdom that pierces the Truths. > > I hope you find this interesting. > > Jon > 3565 From: m. nease Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rob news All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become otherwise, will become separated from me. 3566 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:31am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. > I don't know I think someone probably posted this kind of question before. > > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me drinking > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. > What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a minor > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal > to sip some good wine with a good dinner. > > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. Dear Num, Welcome back! I just wanted to point you to a message from Mike some time back, no. 1889 in the archives, that points out the dangers of drinking. Having said that, it again depends very much on the individual accumulations. The fact is also that only the sotapanna would keep the five precepts to perfection, so we shouldn't worry about that too much!!! Great to hear from you again, Amara 3567 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:01pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Jhana and the Eightfold Path Kom Thanks for this informative reply. I notice that 3 of the javana cittas in the magga citta process specifically cognize the [particular] ti-lakkhana, so I hope you will give me some marks for my answer. I have doubt about the role of the paccavekkana-vithi in all this. I had always understood that this series of cittas reviewed the preceding magga citta, but nothing more. As I understand it, the knowledge and peneteration of the 4 Noble Truths is completed at the moment of ariya magga citta. For this reason I have doubt that the reference in the A-S Comm. to the "deep significance of the Four Noble Truths" would refer to the paccavekkana-vitthi cittas. Look forward to anything further you can dig up on this. Jon > wisdom fathoming the > > > deep > > > > significance of the Four Noble Truths. [5.4] > My guess for the passage meaning is that it doesn't > specifically talk about the magga vithi realizing > the full > significance of the four noble truth, but rather, > all the > accumulation including the vipassana nana, magga > vithi, and > the paccavekkana-vithi would complete the full > realization > of the four noble truths. > > [Start Quoting (in parts)] > > [accumulation toward nibhanna] > When panna has been fully developed and ready to > clearly > realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the > principal > elements of enlightenment which are the seven > bojjhanga, and > complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 > sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada, > the 5 > indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 > constituents of > the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the > 8 > constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely > samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, > samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika, > samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika, > samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise > to > clearly realize the reality of nibbana as > magga-vithi > through the mano-dvara: > > [3 bhavanga instants] > Bhavanga as > vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. > Bhavanga-calana as > vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta > (of the same type as the bhavanga.) > Bhavangupaccheda as > vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of > the same type as the bhavanga.) > > [vithi cittas begin] > Mano-dvaravajjana as kiriya-citta. > > [javana cittas begin] > > [3 javana cittas cognizing one of three common > characteristics] > Parikamma as > mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta. > Upacara as > mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as > the > parikamma.) > Anuloma as > mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as > the > parikamma.) > > [4 instants of citta cognizing Nibhanna] > Javana - > Gotrabhu as > mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as > the > parikamma.) > > [magga and pala cittas congizing Nibhanna] > Sotapattimagga-citta as lokuttara-citta. > Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. > Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. > > [javana ends] > Bhavanga-citta as > vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. > [magga vithi ends] > > [5 citta-vithi vara cognizing magga, phala, and > others] > When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the > bhavanga-citta would arise for several instants in > continuation. Then the paccavekkana-vithi would > arise to > examine the magga-citta for an instant, the > phala-citta > another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, the > remaining > kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of > paccavekkana-vithi. After the magga-vithi has > fallen away, > the paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in > sequence. > Therefore, the ariya-puggala would not mistake the > status of > his attainment so that the sotapanna would not > mistake > himself for > the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami, > the > anagami, the arahanta likewise. > > [The page also describe the vipassana nana > associated with > magga vithi starting from > Anuloma-nana: the twelfth vipassana-nana, to the > Phala-nana: > the fifteenth vipassana-nana. It finally describes > the 16th > nana: Paccavekkhana-nana: the sixteenth > vipassana-nana.] > > kom > 3568 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 6:11pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > I think the confusion arises > because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even > to laypeople) which were not directly related to > cultivation of the eightfold path. > > For example, the Buddha often recommended the > observance of Uposatha to laypeople, as in: > > "...Hence indeed the woman and the man who are > virtuous enter on uposatha having eight parts and > having made merits bringing forth happiness blameless > they obtain heavenly abodes." > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43 > Visakhuposatha Sutta > The Discourse to Visakha > on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html > > Here the Buddha is clearly talking about cultivation > of the brahma viharas, a kind of samatha bhavana. And > in the Piti Sutta, kindly posted recently by Khun Kom, > > > "...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not > exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on > sensuality do not exist at that time. The pain & > distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist > at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on what is > unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & > distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at > that time. When a disciple of the noble ones enters & > remains in seclusion & rapture, these five > possibilities do not exist at that time." > > Anguttara Nikaya VIII.43 > Visakhuposatha Sutta > The Discourse to Visakha > on the Uposatha with the Eight Practices > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an8-43.html > > Here the emphasis is clearly on the phrase 'at that > time'--that is, temporary suppression of the > defilements rather than eradication of them, so still > not cultivation of the eightfold path (because not > leading to the cessation of suffering). Yet there can > be no doubt that the Buddha is recommending these > practices here and many places elsewhere. Dear all, I think there might be another factor to consider, the person to whom he was speaking. Again, people have different accumulations, and especially in those days, the right accumulations, especially panna, even for the householders. People like Anathapindika and such were anagami even if they still merchants and doctors and government officials, and they would of course keep the eight precepts to perfection automatically, and of course the Buddha would tell them that is the best thing for them, and since they had not attained arahantship, they would be reborn in a better world because they had not ended rebirths completely, and still needed to study more. He taught everyone according to their accumulations and abilities to understand or accept the teachings, from thieves to ascetics of other beliefs, from students to kings. The importance of awareness of the present moment in the second passage is of course the same for everyone, awareness is beneficial to all those who study, whether the householder of the arahanta, or the Buddha himself. This of course means that people should know their own true nature and abilities, and not try to emulate everything they see in the Tipitaka, or live like an arahanta would naturally do, or even as a sotapanna would, or try to be born a frog to hear the dhamma and get stepped on to be able to be born a deva and attain wisdom to become an ariya puggala. I think we were born in this era for a reason, our accumulations are such that we were not enlightened at the time when the sasana was at its greatest, but at a moment when it is definitely on the decline. We must accept the fact that we are lucky to find it at all and to have the teachings rather complete (though in my own opinion we can begin to see how it might become altered, and if no one could really comprehend the teachings as a whole, but as separate little puzzles, how one day no one would study it at all). We must also be honest to ourselves and know one's own ability to study the truth as best we can without aspiring (with any degree of lobha) to behave in any unnatural way instead of acquiring as much knowledge as possible knowing that panna will do its duty automatically, naturally, according to its strength. Which is why all those who study now are dear friends to me on this long lonely road of knowledge. Amara 3569 From: Joyce Short Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 8:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Hi, Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a practical matter. Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and see what you discover. Joyce > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me drinking > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. > What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a minor > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal > to sip some good wine with a good dinner. > > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. > > > Glad to join the group again. > > Num > > > 3570 From: Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:22pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III Dear Amara, you asked "did you translate it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of your comments? It was remarked during the discussions that we could not determine where the book ended and your comments began." No it was not a sentence by sentence translation, it was somewhat summerized, you can treat all of them as my comments, which i made according to my understanding of what the original writer explained.( so anything that doesnt go with the dhamma i take responsibility) The correct thing has happened(which was intended by providing an intro to cheating dhammas) because the attempt is there to track the original text and translate those phrases by experts. you said " I think it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already laid out." amara, my limited ability to translate prevents me from doing a more comprehensive translation. I included almost all the Pali there were in the book, so they can be understood without my rough english translation. Regards. "Amara" on 02/21/2001 11:20:37 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III > The point is to see the cheating ability of the mind , ! and accept it, be > aware > of it, and beware. Dear Gayan, It's great to see the whole list and your translations and comments again, I had printed them all out for the committee at that foundation who studied them all as well as the ones Robert sent. They decided to translate strictly what was in the Netti's commentaries, but your translations and comments were carefully examined, anumodana again for introducing it to us. Just a detail about the book, did you translate it sentence by sentence or give us a summarized version with some of your comments? It was remarked during the discussions that we could not determine where the book ended and your comments began. I think it would be very interesting and beneficial if the whole book were translated as it was written, following the outlines you have already laid out. Anumodana with all your kusala cetana, Amara 3571 From: Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I dear jonothan, you asked "Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the examples and explanatory notes given are the work of the author/translator writing in recent times. Is this correct?" Yes it is correct. The Pali is from the Nettippakaranaatthakatha, The 'vangceti's only appear there ( and nowhere else)even there its only as just small phrases without explanations. examples and notes are from a sri lankan monk who was well versed in all three pitakas.[ven. R. chandavimala(1897-1997)] regards, Jonothan Abbott on 02/21/2001 12:48:00 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET I Gayan Many thanks for this. It will be good to have the whole work in one place. Following on from Amara's comments, my understanding is that the Pali is from the Commentary, and the examples and explanatory notes given are the work of the author/translator writing in recent times. Is this correct? Jon --- Gayan Karunaratne wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > > Extremely sorry for the Late reply > > ( i was caught up with my 'ajiva'[work] ) > > Heres the concatenated list > 3572 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 9:53pm Subject: Re: 'Cheating' dhammas CHEAT SHEET III > amara, my limited ability to translate prevents me from doing a more > comprehensive translation. > I included almost all the Pali there were in the book, so they can be understood > without my rough english translation. Dear Gayan, Thank you for the very frank and honorable reply, if I may be as straight forward? I think English is really quite good, and with just a little editing you could give many people access to a rare and beneficial book. I hope you might have time to do a line or two a day whenever you have time, for example, and I am sure our many English teachers and professors on the list could help you where there are difficulties. If you don't mind I would like to volunteer too, although I am not a professor of any kind. But only if and when you wish to try it out, of course, because you will have to do the most work, although it would be really great kusala too! Is it a very big book, how many pages is it, may I ask? Amara 3573 From: bruce Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:18pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. jumping into this one when i haven't caught up on my old (by now probably dead and long-buried) responses to previous queries.... i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly* choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a precept? and can we really decide to perform an act with sati? is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to? or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am mindful now..." bruce At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote: > Hi, > > Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one > finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells > one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a > practical matter. > > Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and > see what you discover. > > Joyce > > > > > > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me drinking > > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. > > What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a minor > > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. > > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a big deal > > to sip some good wine with a good dinner. > > > > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. > > > > > > Glad to join the group again. > > > > Num > > > > 3574 From: Joyce Short Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. > > i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is > killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly* > choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a > precept? Actually,it was a faint attempt at humor - but if you need to have rules or precepts, then have them but dont take on what you aren't ready keep or what gets your mind in a muddle. Since Im speaking to a dhamma study list I made the assumption that people would understand the term "everything" did NOT mean killing and stealing but Ill try not to assume in future. We practice mindfulness -emphasis on the word practice. So when there is a lot of obsessing about something, when we are over thinking beyond simple common sense, just note that, when the thought "I am mindful now" arises,or any other kind of selfing arises, just note that...when any desire to control arises, just note that. When concepts are arising, just note, as well as noting the pleasureable or otherwise response to what arises. It isnt a matter of how we are supposed to be, we have enough of that in ordinary consensus reality, its a matter of exploring, investigating what we are beyond what we think or have been told we are and Buddhism has lots of tips and techniques on how to go about it. Although theres no point in accumulating a lot of new rules or regulations, dogmas, views, traditions and so on - we are still required to see for ourselves. So - if one is sincerely attempting the investigations that we are taught to do, then one automatically cuts out anything which interferes with this process - for me drinking would interfere, as well as any attitudes about it. Others may have a different experience. One doesnt need to speculate about others, just find what works (in the context of whatever practice you are doing) in the most simple and direct manner for oneself. One can see if one is practicing correctly by the results. Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts with sati, and the capacity grows. One can eat with sati, walk with sati, etc...and the capacity grows to be continual with the practice. Theres no "mights" about practice...this arises and then disappears, that arises and disappears, labelling drops into seamless continuity and interpendence as the selfing is less demanding. Selfing is present here, not present there, not a problem. It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears even within one's most cherished views. No need to condemn this or anything else, its just natural, what we are working with and those patterns eventually drop. Anyway, the point is investigation into impermanence, suffering and no-self....seeing into what is arising....the texts only give hints, the full picture is experienced for oneself. Metta, Joyce > > and can we really decide to perform an act with sati? > is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to? > or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something > that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma > cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising > is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am > mindful now..." > > bruce > > > At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice one >> finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense tells >> one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a >> practical matter. >> >> Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness and >> see what you discover. >> >> Joyce >> >> >> >> >> > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me drinking >> > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. >> > What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a minor >> > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. >> > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a > big deal >> > to sip some good wine with a good dinner. >> > >> > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. >> > >> > >> > Glad to join the group again. >> > >> > Num >> > >> > 3575 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:30pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard Thanks for bringing it back to the present moment, as you did when you said - > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Well, indeed I see a difference between > concepts/percepts and > non-mental experiences such as experiences of > sounds, sights, feelings etc. > But the difference to me is one of directness vs > indirectness. Sounds, > sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they > are their own referents, > whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond > themselves. Such referents > "pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct > elements of experience - > they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the > suchness/actuality of > the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see > the matter. > But concepts themselves, and not their > inferred referents, are mental > objects which surely *should* be able to be observed > directly with wisdom, > else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the > indirectness in concepts > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a > direct seeing acccompanied by > wisdom. > ------------------------------------------------------- Let’s take an everyday example - listening to someone speak. We know from our studies that at the moment(s) of contact between sound and hearing consciousness (and ear door) there is simply the bare experiencing of the sound. Each such moment is followed by many moments of thinking of different kinds that recognises the meaning of what has been said and identifies the speaker of the words. At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment of consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) that is sound. Both the citta and the sound are real. Sound has a characteristic that can be known. At the later moments of recognising/identifying the ‘meaning’ of what has been heard, the particular rupa that was the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has already fallen away and there are only thoughts or ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound. At these moments the citta which thinks is real, but the object of the citta has no substance or even characteristic whatsoever, it is something that has been conjured up by citta (a concept). > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm > slowly wading through the > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on > Voidness because of my > particular interest.) > ------------------------------------------------------ Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on this subject. This OLDF says that later in the Path of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note explaining your earlier quote in this way: "therefore it is void of any other essence other than itself; the meaning is that itself is void of another essence..". This may put a different light on things. You may like to check it out. Jon 3576 From: Joyce Short Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:29pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > >> I think the confusion arises >> because the Buddha so often prescribed practices (even >> to laypeople) which were not directly related to >> cultivation of the eightfold path. Hi Amara, You might find the following interesting, from Fundamentals of Vipassana by the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, Edited by Ven. U Silananda. "NOBLE PATH Every time you note 'rising, falling, sitting, touching, seeing, hearing, bending, stretching', and so on, there is an effort being made. This is the Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path. Then there is your mindfulness. It is Right Mindfulness. Then there is concentration which penetrates the object noted as well as remains fixed on it. This is Right Concentration. The three are called Concentration Constituents of the path. Then there is the initial application which, together with concentration, ascends on the object noted. it is the application of the concomitants on the object. Its characteristic is the putting the concomitants on to the object (abhiniropana-lakkhana) according to the Commentary. This is Right Thought. Then there is the realization that the object just attended to is just movement, just non-cognizing, just seeing, just cognizing, just rising and dispearing, just impermanent and so on. This is the Right View. Right Thought and Right View together form the Wisdom Constituents of the Path. The three Morality Constituents, Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood, have been perfected before you take up insight meditation - when you take the precepts. Besides, there can be no wrong speech, wrong action or wrong livelihood in respect of the object noted. So whenever you note, you perfect the Morality Constituents of the Path as well. This the eight constituents of the Noble Path are there in every act of awareness. They constitute the insight path once clinging is done away with. You have to prepare this path gradually until you reach the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations. When this knowledge grows mature and strong, you arrive at the Ariyan Path in due course. It is like this: When the Knowledge of Indifference to Formations has matured and grown stronger, your notings get sharper and swifter. While thus noting and becoming aware swiftly, all of a sudden, you fall into the peace that is Nibbana. it is rather strange. You have no prior knowledge that you will reach it. You cannot reflect on reaching it, either. Only after the reaching of it can you reflect on it. You reflect because you find unusual things. This is the Knowledge of Reflection. Then you know what has happened. This is how you reach Nibbana through the Ariyan path. So if you want to realize Nibbana, what is important is to work for freedom from clinging. With ordinary people they arise everywhere: in seeing, in hearing, in touching, in being aware. We must work for a complete freedom from these clingings (through insight) To work is to meditate on, be aware of, whatever arises, whatever is seen, heard, touched, thought of. If you keep meditating thus, clingings cease to be, the Ariyan Path arises leading to Nibbana, this is the process." Interesting, one doesnt have to do more than practice awareness, one dosnt have to cling to non-clinging, TRY to not cling because as mind sees impermanence, suffering and no-self in all that appears, really experiences this, then mind lets go of clinging as it fully attains to Right View and Wisdom. Metta, Joyce 3577 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Dear Bruce > >jumping into this one when i haven't caught up on my old (by now probably >dead and long-buried) responses to previous queries.... Indeed you are a traitor; you pushed me ahead to face alone the brain eaters and you just let me down! Don't you feel ashamed? ;-) >i wonder about "everything in moderation"....sounds like a cop out....is >killing in moderation ok? or stealing? if one can choose (ok, *seemingly* >choose) not to have alcohol, isn't that the perfect opportunity to keep a >precept? > >and can we really decide to perform an act with sati? >is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when we want to? >or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control something >that arises according to conditions, in this case, the paramattha dhamma >cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean that what is arising >is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a concept of self: "i am >mindful now..." > >bruce Dear Bruce it seems to me that you are a bit of a censor with yourself just now. What is this: mindful self flagelation? Moderation is just a word as middle path is just an idea, all this heavy significances are our mental overdressings on it. Awareness unfolds as we practice and all this analitical thinking on it do not make it easier to deal with or get insight into it in my humble viewpoint. Burmese kisses to you CYbele > >At 07:38 2001/02/22 -0500, you wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Everything in moderation works - if you are doing any intensive practice >one > > finds that mind is in enough muddle without drinking so common sense >tells > > one to abstain from anything that effects ordinary consciousness - its a > > practical matter. > > > > Have that glass of wine with dinner and drink it with total mindfulness >and > > see what you discover. > > > > Joyce > > > > > > > > > > > Why drinking(alchohol) is always unwholesome? At time for me >drinking > > > Coke or juice or even water can also accompany with clinging as well. > > > What's about tea, coffee or smoking? It did happen that I had a >minor > > > drinking once in a while, at the banquet, the party or with friends. > > > Sometimes it's hard not to abstain from it. At time I think what's a >big deal > > > to sip some good wine with a good dinner. > > > > > > Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. > > > > > > > > > Glad to join the group again. > > > > > > Num > > > > > > > > > 3578 From: Amara Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 11:58pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas > Hi Amara, > > You might find the following interesting, from Fundamentals of Vipassana by > the Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, Edited by Ven. U Silananda. > > "NOBLE PATH > > Every time you note 'rising, falling, sitting, touching, seeing, hearing, > bending, stretching', and so on, there is an effort being made. This is the > Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path. Then there is your mindfulness. > It is Right Mindfulness. Then there is concentration which penetrates the > object noted as well as remains fixed on it. This is Right Concentration. > The three are called Concentration Constituents of the path. Then there is > the initial application which, together with concentration, ascends on the > object noted. it is the application of the concomitants on the object. Its > characteristic is the putting the concomitants on to the object > (abhiniropana-lakkhana) according to the Commentary. This is Right Thought. > Then there is the realization that the object just attended to is just > movement, just non-cognizing, just seeing, just cognizing, just rising and > dispearing, just impermanent and so on. This is the Right View. Right > Thought and Right View together form the Wisdom Constituents of the Path. > The three Morality Constituents, Right Speech, Right Action and Right > Livelihood, have been perfected before you take up insight meditation - when > you take the precepts. Besides, there can be no wrong speech, wrong action > or wrong livelihood in respect of the object noted. So whenever you note, > you perfect the Morality Constituents of the Path as well. > > This the eight constituents of the Noble Path are there in every act of > awareness. They constitute the insight path once clinging is done away > with. You have to prepare this path gradually until you reach the Knowledge > of Indifference to Formations. When this knowledge grows mature and strong, > you arrive at the Ariyan Path in due course. It is like this: When the > Knowledge of Indifference to Formations has matured and grown stronger, your > notings get sharper and swifter. While thus noting and becoming aware > swiftly, all of a sudden, you fall into the peace that is Nibbana. it is > rather strange. You have no prior knowledge that you will reach it. You > cannot reflect on reaching it, either. Only after the reaching of it can you > reflect on it. You reflect because you find unusual things. This is the > Knowledge of Reflection. Then you know what has happened. This is how you > reach Nibbana through the Ariyan path. > > So if you want to realize Nibbana, what is important is to work for freedom > from clinging. With ordinary people they arise everywhere: in seeing, in > hearing, in touching, in being aware. We must work for a complete freedom > from these clingings (through insight) To work is to meditate on, be aware > of, whatever arises, whatever is seen, heard, touched, thought of. If you > keep meditating thus, clingings cease to be, the Ariyan Path arises leading > to Nibbana, this is the process." > > Interesting, one doesnt have to do more than practice awareness, one dosnt > have to cling to non-clinging, TRY to not cling because as mind sees > impermanence, suffering and no-self in all that appears, really experiences > this, then mind lets go of clinging as it fully attains to Right View and > Wisdom. Dear Joyce, Very interesting indeed, I wish it were that easy. In which case the Buddha had wasted four assankhaya and a hundred thousand kappa accumulating wisdom for the enlightenment of the dhamma and another forty five years teaching it. But as I understand it, it is much more complicated and difficult to realize, especially in this day and age, as you will see in the following explanation: Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part VIII by Sujin Boriharnwanaket Vipassana-Bhavana There are 3 levels of kilesa namely, anusaya-kilesa, pariyutthana-kilesa and Vitikkakama-kilesa. Vitikkakama-kilesa is the coarse kilesa, causing one to break the sila (precepts) and perform duccarita kamma (wrong action) physically or verbally. To virati is to refrain from Vitikkakama-kilesa with sila. Pariyutthana-kilesa is the medium kind of kilesa that arises with akusala-citta but not to the point of breaking the sila and performing duccarita kamma. To refrain from pariyutthana-kilesa momentarily is called vikkhambhana-pahana with jhana-kusala-citta. Anusaya-kilesa is a very fine kilesa. When kilesa has not been eradicated, the anusaya-kilesa would settle like sediment in the cittas that arise and fall away in continuation, like a seed, a paccaya for pariyutthana-kilesa to arise. All kilesa would be completely eradicated, never to arise again, when the lokuttara-magga-citta clearly realizes the ariya-sacca-dhamma by experiencing the characteristics of nibbana according to the levels of the magga-citta, which completely eradicates kilesa according to the levels of the specific magga-citta. Before the enlightenment of the Buddha there were people who observed the precepts, abstaining from wrong doing and developing samatha-bhavana unto the arupa-jhana of the highest level, the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana and temporarily suppressed kilesa as vikkhambhana-pahana. But none were able to eradicate anusaya-kilesa. When the Buddha had accumulated his parami for four asankheyya and a hundred thousand kappa, he became enlightened of the anuttarasammasambodhinana (the supreme omniscient self-enlightenment) as the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta. He manifested the way to practice towards the realization of the ariya-sacca-dhamma so that there were many ariya-sankha-savaka (disciples) who attained the ariya-sacca-dhamma, eradicating kilesa. As long as there are those who study and practice the dhamma according to what he became enlightened with and manifested in detail all through 45 years, they continue to do so. The dhamma manifested by the Buddha is refined, intricate, and profound because he manifested the characteristics of realities with which he became enlightened by having fully realized the truth about the specific realities. Any who do not conscientiously study the dhamma he manifested to rightly understand it, would not be able to develop panna to fully realize the characteristics of realities and be able to eradicate kilesa. For panna to be able to fully realize the characteristics of realities as they really are, there must be right understanding from the start what are the realities that panna would fully realize the truth about: which is all that are real, that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind at this very moment. It means that when there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, knowing bodysense contact and thinking, there is no knowledge of the true characteristics of realities as they truly are. The Buddha manifested the realities that arise, appear and evolve through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind every day at each instant in detail, so one might see the harm of akusala-dhamma and samsara-vatta. Since one does not see the harm, one would not endeavor and persist in developing vipassana, which is the panna that fully realizes the characteristics of realities appearing as they truly are normally until kilesa can be eradicated. The development of samatha-bhavana and that of vipassana-bhavana differ in the aramana and the levels of panna. The former has aramana which render the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta peaceful upon contemplation until it is steadily and uniquely based on a unique arammana. Vipassana-bhavana has paramattha-aramana, namely nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma, that arise, appear and fall away as aramana, which the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta-citta begin to take note of, examine arammana by arammana, regularly, constantly until it knows that they are realities that are not entities, persons, or the selves. The result of samatha-bhavana is to be born a brahma-puggala in the brahma-bhumi. The result of vipassana-bhavana is that panna, fully realizes the characteristics of realities as they truly are and eradicates kilesa completely according to the level of lokuttara-magga-citta with nibbana as arammana unto the level of arahanta-magga-citta, which completely eradicates all kilesa so samsara-vatta would end with no more rebirth. Those who develop vipassana-bhavana must be straight and true and know that they still have all the kilesa. They must not desire to eradicate lobha first, because the ordinary person cannot precipitate to being an arahanta immediately because they must first eradicate the lobha that arises with sakkayaditthi, that clings to realities that arise concurrently as the selves, entities and people. Only then would other kilesa be eradicated in sequence, respectively. Since one does not know that the instant of seeing is not the self, entity or person, how can one abandon kilesa, or its effects? The same applies to hearing, smelling, tasting, and knowing bodysense contact. Each reality arises, falls away and disappearing completely very rapidly at all times. The Buddha manifested the way to practice to develop panna to realize the truth about realities: that there is only one way, the development of the eightfold ariya-magga namely samma-ditthi (panna-cetasika), samma-sankappa (vitaka-cetasika), samma-vaca (samma-vaca-cetasika), samma-kammanta (samma-kammanta-cetasika), samma-ajiva (samma-ajiva-cetasika), samma-vayama (viriya-cetasika), samma-sati (sati-cetasika) samma-samadhi (ekaggata-cetasika). At first, before the lokuttara-citta arises, the fivefold path (excluding the virati because virati arise one at a time, the 3 virati-cetasika will arise concurrently only in the lokuttara-citta) would arise and perform their functions together in the instant that sati is mindful of the characteristics of realities that are either nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma, through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. And the panna-cetasika that arises concurrently with samma- sati at that instant would start to take note, examine and know the characteristics of the specific nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma little by little, regularly and constantly until there is clear knowledge whether it is nama-dhamma or rupa-dhamma. Realities that appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind are categorized as the 4 sati-patthana. When sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct realities as 1) Kayanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of rupa through the bodysense, it is kayanupassana-satipatthana. 2) Vedananupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of feelings that appear, it is vedananupassana-satipatthana. 3) Cittanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of distinct kinds of citta, it is cittanupassana-satipatthana. 4) Dhammanupassana-satipatthana: whenever sati arises to be mindful of the characteristics of the rupa-dhamma or nama-dhamma, it is dhammanupassana-satipatthana. The word satipatthana has 3 meanings: 1) Satipatthana is the paramattha-arammana or nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that sati is mindful of (the 4 satipatthana). 2) Satipatthana is the sati-cetasika that arises with kamavacara-nanasampayutta-citta that is mindful of the arammana that are satipatthana. 3) Satipatthana is the path taken by the Sammasambuddha the Arahanta and the ariya-savanna. It is extremely difficult and infrequent for the eight ariya-magga or the development of the 4 satipatthana to be mindful of the characteristics of each reality that arises and appears through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind each day to arise, according to the causes: avijja, lobha and all the akusala-dhamma accumulated over such a long period of time in the samsara-vatta, even including this lifetime each day since our birth. Those who understand the causes and results of realities as they truly are would therefore be persistent in listening to, studying and examining the dhamma to understand about realities through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind until it becomes paccaya to compose satipatthana to arise and to be correctly mindful, take note, examine and study the characteristics of the realities appearing according to what one has heard and understood. All dhamma, including satipatthana and the eightfold ariya-magga, are anatta. They could arise when there are paccaya or when the mahakusala-nana-sampayutta has been sufficiently accumulated, there would be no more turning towards other practices than mindfulness, noting and examining nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that is appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. Those who develop panna are straightforward. When satipatthana arises they know it is different from the moment of forgetting sati. When satipatthana first arises, it does not clearly realize the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The perseverance that arises concurrently with satipatthana, that is mindful of, takes note and studies the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma that appear are therefore the 4 sammappadhana (the right perseverance): sanvarapadhana, pahanapadhana, bhavanapadhana and anurakkhanapadhana. Sanvarapadhana is the perseverance in not allowing akusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) to arise. Pahanapadhana is the perseverance in abandoning akusala-dhamma that has arisen. Bhavanapadhana is the perseverance in making kusala-dhamma (that has not arisen) arise. Anurakkhanapadhana is the perseverance in developing to the most steadfast and complete the kusala-dhamma that has already arisen. The perseverance that form the 4 sammappadhana would be basis for the success, together with other sampayutta-dhamma that arise concurrently with realities that are the 4 iddhipada: 1) Chandiddhipada is the chanda-cetasika or the satisfaction from noting, examining and knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing as they really are. (Sammohavinodani Atthakatha Vibbhangapakarana Iddhipadavibbhanganidesa)Achieving results based on gratification is like a minister's son who is not remiss in his duties in serving the king, thus receiving titles to that affect. 2) Viriyiddhipada is the viriya-cetasika, the perseverance in taking note, examining, knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma appearing. 1Achieving results based on perseverance like a minister's son who pleases the king by being indomitable in his functions thus receiving titles. 3) Cittiddhipada is the citta. 2Achieving results based on citta is like a minister's son who receives titles because of his right birth and nature. 4) Vimansiddhipada is the panna-cetasika that ponders, notices, examines the characteristics of realities. 3Achieving results based on panna is like a minister's son who receives titles based on his knowledge. These minister's sons all achieve their titles by right of their respective efficiencies. The functions of these 4 iddhipada depend on the accumulation and development of the five indriya, which are the principal realities in leading towards samma-magga, the right way to practice. The five indriya: 1) Saddhindriya is the saddha-cetasika, the principal element of having saddha to be mindful of the characteristics of realities appearing. 2) Viriyindriya is the viriya-cetasika, the principal element of not being lazy, not being discouraged to be mindful of realities appearing. 3) Satindriya is the sati-cetasika, the principal element of not forgetting, being mindful of the characteristics of realities appearing. 4) Samadhindriya is the ekaggata-cetasika, the principal element of being steadfast in the arammana appearing. 5) Pannindriya is the panna-cetasika, the principal element of pondering, examining, and taking note of the characteristics of realities appearing. When the five indriya have been developed to become a strong reality unwavering in the study of any arammana appearing, it becomes the 5 bala (powerful realities) namely 1) Saddha-bala unperturbed by lack of faith. 2) Viriya-bala unperturbed by discouragement. 3) Sati-bala unperturbed in mindfulness of any reality that appears. 4) Samadhi-bala unperturbed by agitation and instability. 5) Panna-bala unperturbed by ignorance. For saddha, viriya, sati and samadhi to become powerful realities, panna must be bala from knowing the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma more thoroughly so it is unperturbed to be mindful of how the instant of seeing is nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma. The same applies to the instant of hearing, smelling, tasting and knowing bodysense contact. When panna which has arisen with sati that is mindful of the characteristics of nama-dhamma and rupa-dhamma has matured to become vipassana-nana of the respective level, it would be composed of the seven bojjhanga, the principal dhamma in the enlightenment of the ariya-sacca-dhamma. The seven bojjhanga are: 1) Sati-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: sati-cetasika 2) Dhammavicaya-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: panna-cetasika 3) Viriya-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: viriya-cetasika 4) Piti-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: piti-cetasika 5) Passaddhi-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: kaya-passaddhi-cetasika and citta-passaddhi-cetasika 6) Samadhi-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: ekaggata-cetasika 7) Upekkha-sambojjhanga The principal element of enlightenment: tatramajjhattata-cetasika When panna has been fully developed and ready to clearly realize the ariya-sacca-dhamma, composed with the principal elements of enlightenment which are the seven bojjhanga, and complete with the 37 bodhipakkhiyadhamma (the 4 sati-patthana, the 4 sammappadhana, the 4 iddhipada, the 5 indriya, the 5 bala, the 7 bojjhanga, the 8 constituents of the magga), the lokuttara-citta, composed of all the 8 constituents of the magga in its entirety, namely samma-ditthi-cetasika, samma-sankappa-cetasika, samma-vaca-cetasika, samma-kammanta-cetasika, samma-ajiva-cetasika, samma-vayama-cetasika, samma-sati-cetasika and samma-samadhi, would arise to clearly realize the reality of nibbana as magga-vithi through the mano-dvara: Bhavanga as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. Bhavanga-calana as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the bhavanga.) Bhavangupaccheda as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the bhavanga.) Mano-dvaravajjana as kiriya-citta. Parikamma as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta. Upacara as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) Anuloma as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) Javana - Gotrabhu as mahakusala-nanasampayutta-citta citta (of the same type as the parikamma.) Sotapattimagga-citta as lokuttara-citta. Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. Sotapattiphala-citta as lokuttara-vipaka-citta. Bhavanga-citta as vipaka-nanasampayutta-citta. Whatever level of lokuttara-jhana-citta the citta is, it arises with the principal element of jhana of that respective level. If it is the lokuttara-duttiyajhana, there would be no vitakka-cetasika, which is a samma-sankappa, arising concurrently. If it is the lokuttara-tatiyajjhana, there would be no vicara-cetasika arising with it. If it is the lokuttara-catutthajjhana, there would be no piti-cetasika arising. If it is the lokuttara-pancama-jhana, there would be upekkha- vedana arising in place of the somanassa-vedana. The magga-vithi-citta of those who can attain the ariya-sacca-dhamma rapidly as tikkha-puggala does not need to have parikamma, therefore the magga-javana-vithi would have only one instant of upacara, one of anuloma, gotrabhu, magga-citta each and three instants of phala-citta instead of two, making altogether 7 instants. When the magga-vithi-citta has fallen away, the bhavanga-citta would arise for several instants in continuation. Then the paccavekkana-vithi would arise to examine the magga-citta for an instant, the phala-citta another, the nibbana, the eradicated kilesa, the remaining kilesa each, forming altogether the 5 vara of paccavekkana-vithi. After the magga-vithi has fallen away, the paccavekkana-vithi must always arise in sequence. Therefore, the ariya-puggala would not mistake the status of his attainment so that the sotapanna would not mistake himself for the sakadagami-puggala, nor would the sakadagami, the anagami, the arahanta likewise. (End quote) This is from the book 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section of . It might be useful to compare the two to the teachings in the Tipitaka, to tell the truth I am mainly interested in the Tipitaka's teachings, other teachers do not really interest me if they do not explain what is in the Tipitaka and the commentaries, and are nothing to me if they go against the Tipitaka in the least. Do tell us what you think of the compared texts, Amara 3579 From: Date: Thu Feb 22, 2001 7:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/22/01 10:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > Thanks for bringing it back to the present moment, as > you did when you said - > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Well, indeed I see a difference between > > concepts/percepts and > > non-mental experiences such as experiences of > > sounds, sights, feelings etc. > > But the difference to me is one of directness vs > > indirectness. Sounds, > > sights, feelings etc are direct experiences - they > > are their own referents, > > whereas percepts/concepts *seem* to point beyond > > themselves. Such referents > > "pointed to" by concepts/percepts are not direct > > elements of experience - > > they are inferred, and, in that sense, they lack the > > suchness/actuality of > > the directly observed dhammas. This is the way I see > > the matter. > > But concepts themselves, and not their > > inferred referents, are mental > > objects which surely *should* be able to be observed > > directly with wisdom, > > else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the > > indirectness in concepts > > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a > > direct seeing acccompanied by > > wisdom. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Letā€™s take an everyday example - listening to someone > speak. We know from our studies that at the moment(s) > of contact between sound and hearing consciousness > (and ear door) there is simply the bare experiencing > of the sound. Each such moment is followed by many > moments of thinking of different kinds that recognises > the meaning of what has been said and identifies the > speaker of the words. > > At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment of > consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) that > is sound. Both the citta and the sound are real. > Sound has a characteristic that can be known. At the > later moments of recognising/identifying the ā€˜meaningā€™ > of what has been heard, the particular rupa that was > the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has > already fallen away and there are only thoughts or > ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound. At > these moments the citta which thinks is real, but the > object of the citta has no substance or even > characteristic whatsoever, it is something that has > been conjured up by citta (a concept). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that there is at *most* a terminological difference between us on this particular issue. What you just wrote (above) sounds fine to me. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm > > slowly wading through the > > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on > > Voidness because of my > > particular interest.) > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the Path > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > explaining your earlier quote in this way: "therefore > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > the meaning is that itself is void of another > essence..". This may put a different light on things. > You may like to check it out. > --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I will look it over carefully. A previous cursory examination of the note gave me the impression of going in several different, even contradictory, directions. The text, itself, seems rather clear to me, but I will, indeed, closely study the note. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ============================== Thanks much, Jon. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3580 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. A Discipline of Sobriety by Bhikkhu Bodhi Buddhist Publication Society Newsletter cover essay #36 (2nd mailing, 1997) Copyright © 1997 Buddhist Publication Society For free distribution only ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Several months ago I went for a two-week retreat to a hermitage in the low country highly respected for the austere, meditative life of its monks. Each day a different group of dayakas (donors) comes to the monastery bringing almsfood, often from remote towns and villages. They arrive the previous evening, prepare an early breakfast which is sent up to the refectory, and then, in the forenoon, offer alms directly to the monks when they come down on alms round. After the other monks have collected their food and gone back up, one elder stays behind to give the Refuges and Precepts, preach a short sermon, and conduct the dedication of merit. One day during my retreat I noticed some of the male dayakas behaving rather oddly near the abbot's quarters. I asked my friend, a German monk, about their strange behavior, and the explanation he gave me jolted my mind. "They were drunk," he told me. But that wasn't all. He continued: "The only thing unusual about yesterday's incident was that the men had gotten drunk early in the day. Usually they put on their best behavior until the formalities are done, then they break out the bottles." This stark revelation aroused in me both indignation and sorrow. Indignation, at the idea that people who consider themselves Buddhists should flaunt the most basic precepts even in the sacred precincts of a monastery -- indeed one of the few in Sri Lanka where the flame of arduous striving still burns. Sorrow, because this was only the latest evidence I had seen of how deeply the disease of alcoholism has eaten into the entrails of this nation, whose Buddhist heritage goes back over two thousand years. But Sri Lanka is far from being the only Buddhist country to be engulfed by the spreading wave of alcohol consumption. The wave has already swept over far too much of the shrinking Buddhist world, with Thailand and Japan ranking especially high on the fatality list. The reasons for this ominous trend vary widely. One is rising affluence, which for the rich makes of liquor (hi-grade imported) a visible symbol of newly acquired wealth and power. Another is a burgeoning middle class, which blindly imitates the social conventions of the West. Still another is poverty, which turns the bottle into an easy escape route from the grim face of everyday reality. But whatever the reason, it is more than our woes and worries that alcohol is dissolving. It is gnawing away at the delicate fabric of Buddhist values on every level -- personal, family, and social. For his lay followers the Buddha has prescribed five precepts as the minimal moral observance: abstinence from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, false speech, and the use of intoxicants. He did not lay down these precepts arbitrarily or out of compliance with ancient customs, but because he understood, with his omniscient knowledge, which lines of conduct lead to our welfare and happiness and which lead to harm and suffering. The fifth precept, it should be stressed, is not a pledge merely to abstain from intoxication or from excessive consumption of liquor. It calls for nothing short of total abstinence. By this rule the Buddha shows that he has understood well the subtle, pernicious nature of addiction. Alcoholism rarely claims its victims in a sudden swoop. Usually it sets in gradually, beginning perhaps with the social icebreaker, the drink among friends, or the cocktail after a hard day's work. But it does not stop there: slowly it sinks its talons into its victims' hearts until they are reduced to its helpless prey. To dispel any doubt about his reasons for prescribing this precept, the Buddha has written the explanation into the rule itself: one is to refrain from the use of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are the cause of heedlessness (pamada). Heedlessness means moral recklessness, disregard for the bounds between right and wrong. It is the loss of heedfulness (appamada), moral scrupulousness based on a keen perception of the dangers in unwholesome states. Heedfulness is the keynote of the Buddhist path, "the way to the Deathless," running through all three stages of the path: morality, concentration, and wisdom. To indulge in intoxicating drinks is to risk falling away from each stage. The use of alcohol blunts the sense of shame and moral dread and thus leads almost inevitably to a breach of the other precepts. One addicted to liquor will have little hesitation to lie or steal, will lose all sense of sexual decency, and may easily be provoked even to murder. Hard statistics clearly confirm the close connection between the use of alcohol and violent crime, not to speak of traffic accidents, occupational hazards, and disharmony within the home. Alcoholism is indeed a most costly burden on the whole society. When the use of intoxicants eats away at even the most basic moral scruples, little need be said about its corrosive influence on the two higher stages of the path. A mind besotted by drink will lack the alertness required for meditative training and certainly won't be able to make the fine distinctions between good and bad mental qualities needed to develop wisdom. The Buddhist path in its entirety is a discipline of sobriety, a discipline which demands the courage and honesty to take a long, hard, utterly sober look at the sobering truths about existence. Such courage and honesty will hardly be possible for one who must escape from truth into the glittering but fragile fantasyland opened up by drink and drugs. It may well be that a mature, reasonably well-adjusted person can enjoy a few drinks with friends without turning into a drunkard or a murderous fiend. But there is another factor to consider: namely, that this life is not the only life we lead. Our stream of consciousness does not terminate with death but continues on in other forms, and the form it takes is determined by our habits, propensities, and actions in this present life. The possibilities of rebirth are boundless, yet the road to the lower realms is wide and smooth, the road upwards steep and narrow. If we were ordered to walk along a narrow ledge overlooking a sharp precipice, we certainly would not want to put ourselves at risk by first enjoying a few drinks. We would be too keenly aware that nothing less than our life is at stake. If we only had eyes to see, we would realize that this is a perfect metaphor for the human condition, as the Buddha himself, the One with Vision, confirms (see SN 56:42). As human beings we walk along a narrow ledge, and if our moral sense is dulled we can easily topple over the edge, down to the plane of misery, from which it is extremely difficult to re-emerge. But it is not for our own sakes alone, nor even for the wider benefit of our family and friends, that we should heed the Buddha's injunction to abstain from intoxicants. To do so is also part of our personal responsibility for preserving the Buddha's Sasana. The Teaching can survive only as long as its followers uphold it, and in the present day one of the most insidious corruptions eating away at the entrails of Buddhism is the extensive spread of the drinking habit among those same followers. If we truly want the Dhamma to endure long, to keep the path to deliverance open for all the world, then we must remain heedful. If the current trend continues and more and more Buddhists succumb to the lure of intoxicating drinks, we can be sure that the Teaching will perish in all but name. At this very moment of history when its message has become most urgent, the sacred Dhamma of the Buddha will be irreparably lost, drowned out by the clinking of glasses and our rounds of merry toasts. 3581 From: Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:03am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Hi all, Glad to see the response. Let me start with my opinion that even for sila, panna or right understanding is still the key. That why sotapanna will no longer break the precept ever again. One can follow the precept blindly and be bold that he/she is the best person b/c he/she has never broken any of them. A lot of people can keep up with the precept without even really understand it. I usually don't drink or smoke mainly b/c of the health reason. Well, that roots from self love attitude, the view that I love my self to be healthy. So as I mentioned usually if I think it will not affect my health, at time I have a little drink for various reasons or excuses. For a while I was obsessive with the precept and I could follow the precept completely. At that time I could see that it's also accompany with sense of self-esteem that I was good. I agree with moderation or the middle way but the right way can only come with samma-dhiti. Hard to see that there is even no self or person who follows the precept. People can be very extreme in their belief or their practice and akusula can arise after good deed as well. From my understanding when we are doing good deed, sobhana-sadharana-cetasika are already there, at time with or without virati cetasikas. Thanks Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo for the article. Appreciate. Num 3582 From: <> Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:25am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. Dear friends, --- wrote: > I agree with moderation or the middle way but the right way can only come > with samma-dhiti. Yes, the right way can only come with samma-ditthi. Samma-ditthi is one of the Eightfold Noble Path. And the Eightfold Noble Path is really the Middle Way. Therefore, I don't think that moderation in observing the precepts is the Middle Way at all. I understand that each of our 6 senses is given to us so that we can live in Dhamma. If we let any of them *drowned* in the worldly lobha, we don't follow the Eightfold Noble Path. In the Sutta named "Crossing over the Flood" in http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html, the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." In this metaphor of the flood or the whirlpool of samsara, with the help of the Teaching of the Buddha, we stay above the surface of the water so that we are pulled down in its strong current. > Thanks Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo for the article. Yes, thank you. With Metta, Alex Tran 3583 From: <> Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 8:31am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. --- <> wrote: > so that we are pulled down in its strong current. Dear friends, Please read the above phrase: "so that we are NOT pulled down in its strong current." Thank you. Metta, Alex Tran 3584 From: Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/22/01 10:34:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend on > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the Path > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > explaining your earlier quote in this way: "therefore > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > the meaning is that itself is void of another > essence..". This may put a different light on things. > You may like to check it out. > ================================== I had said that I would look over the note and get back to you on this. Indeed, as one goes into the note a bit, one *does* find this. One actually finds all sorts of alternative interpretations, going in various directions. But what is presented first in the note is what I had mentioned before. To quote myself: << In the note after this treatise which refers to what I just quoted, it glosses 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as meaning "arising of itself" or "own essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to say: 'Because of existence in dependence on conditions (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it is 'void of individual essence'. What is meant is that it is void of essence by itself or of its own essence ... >> With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3585 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. > Burmese kisses to you Dear Cybele and Bruce, Whatever they are they sound a lot better than the Burmese gunfire Thailand has been receiving lately from our fighting neighbors Karens and Burmeses, actually this time the Burmeses after siezing some of their illegal drugs in Thailand. As if we didn't have enough of our own!! Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace, there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since the days of the Buddha himself. Such are the dangers of vatta, I think, and remind us that there really is fire burning on our heads; we should never neglect the study of the present moment so we could accumulate panna to take with us no matter where or when we go. You never told me when you will next be in Thailand, Cybele, so we could get together, Khun Sujin is not only one of the knowledgeable people in matters of the Tipitaka, but also a really lovely being in person. She's about 75 and has been teaching the Dhamma for almost 50 years now, and has never been unable to answer any of my questions, and most of our friends know how inquisitive I can get. Other teachers would probably have had me executed a long time ago!!! Looking forward to hearing from you, Amara 3586 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:05am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. > In the Sutta named "Crossing over the Flood" in > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html, > the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was > whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over > the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." In > this metaphor of the flood or the whirlpool of samsara, with the help > of the Teaching of the Buddha, we stay above the surface of the water > so that we are pulled down in its strong current. Dear Alex, I just wanted to say that your link above doesn't seem to work, or perhaps it's my browser? Thank you for your astute comments, anumodana, Amara 3587 From: Gayan Karunaratne Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Dear bikkhu dhammapiyo and friends, living in sri lanka I very well know how alcohol has affected the whole country. Usually in poya days and other days with any religious significance the liquor shops are kept closed, so just before those days the queues become longer , ( people are making stocks of this 'essential' item so they can ahve an uninterrupted supply during the days ahead). These are middle and lower middle class people,..so the liquor expenses spread for a larger percentage of their income as well. The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of alcohol. I very well know myself that how the addiction is gradual. it is true that puthujjanas cant keep up with the precepts all the time, but if one thinks that " I am a puthujjana, so I may break a precept here and there, so I will drink some beer today..." this is merely the cheating of oneself. I remember a story told by Buddha( or may be by ven.Sariputta) about an enemy of a King. The foe with the intention of killing the king, wins confidence of the king as acting as a good friend and a servant. The king really has confidence in the servant and entrusts him with 'aide' like duties. Having the 'killing' intention all the time the enemy waits for the opportunity and then kills the king. The idea here is , even though the king saw the servant as a good friend and a trustworthy person ( till his ultimate betrayal) the servant was ALWAYS the enemy and a traitor, and a would-be assasin. Just like that the beings see akusalas as friends, and ways which provides entertainment and enjoyment. But they are the enemies always. People who think of moderation of liquor places it as a way of socializing, way of relaxing, way of enjoying life, way of tasting the essence of whatever,way of dealing bravely with a consumer item where only losers will end up as alcoholics but not us who have the enjoyment and all the fun come with it..etc regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Discipline of Sobriety by Bhikkhu Bodhi Buddhist Publication Society Newsletter cover essay #36 (2nd mailing, 1997) Copyright © 1997 Buddhist Publication Society For free distribution only ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Several months ago I went for a two-week retreat to a hermitage in the low country highly respected for the austere, meditative life of its monks. Each day a different group of dayakas (donors) comes to the monastery bringing almsfood, often from remote towns and villages. They arrive the previous evening, prepare an early breakfast which is sent up to the refectory, and then, in the forenoon, offer alms directly to the monks when they come down on alms round. After the other monks have collected their food and gone back up, one elder stays behind to give the Refuges and Precepts, preach a short sermon, and conduct the dedication of merit. One day during my retreat I noticed some of the male dayakas behaving rather oddly near the abbot's quarters. I asked my friend, a German monk, about their strange behavior, and the explanation he gave me jolted my mind. "They were drunk," he told me. But that wasn't all. He continued: "The only thing unusual about yesterday's incident was that the men had gotten drunk early in the day. Usually they put on their best behavior until the formalities are done, then they break out the bottles." ................ 3588 From: <> Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 0:12pm Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. Dear Amara, Oops, the address should not have the comma at the end: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html Enjoy the Sutta! With Metta, Alex --- "Amara" wrote: > I just wanted to say that your link above doesn't seem to work, or > perhaps it's my browser? 3589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Jina Apologies for the delay in getting back to you on your first point. I have fallen somewhat behind lately. --- wrote: > hello Jon, > I have tried to find these passages in another > rending of the > Pali text, in the tr. called A Manual of Abhidhamma > (the Nārada > tr.) Could you give some cross-ref. to the Pali > sections being > quoted here, to help me find the passages in > question? anyway, The A-S text under which the passage appears is found in the general section 'Supra-Mundane Consciousness' of Ch 1, at the heading '121 Types of Consciousness' (p. 63 in my copy) of the Ven. Narada translation. As I suspected, however, the commentarial material in this translation does not include the passage in question, so you won't find it of much help. You'll have to splash out on the Bhikkhu Bodhi update if you want to see the original. Recommended. Jon 3590 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:37pm Subject: Welcome & Control and Anatta again Dear Joyce, First and foremost, welcome to this dsg list nd it's good to hear your views and perspectives. If you care to tell us anything more about your background of the dhamma or anything else that would be interesting too. Where are you based? You'll have noticed by now that we're all quite lively and 'picky' here and little escapes all the eagle eyes! Please don't be intimidated and keep up your comments and understandings. I agree with you here: >but if you need to have rules or >precepts, then have them but dont take on what you >aren't ready keep or what >gets your mind in a muddle. As it has been stressed, only the sotapanna can really keep the precepts under all circumstances...As you say, 'it isn't a matter of how we are supposed to be'....As Num stressed, right understanding, samma ditthi is the key. So then we need to look at the control issue again. You say > >'we practice mindfulness' and >Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts >with sati, and the >capacity grows. One can eat with sati, walk with >sati, etc...and the >capacity grows to be continual with the practice. You also say: > It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears even >within one's most >cherished views. Is it really obvious? At this moment of seeing, is the clinging (lobha) to self obvious? Is there any view (ditthi) of self that is seeing? It doesn't seem to be obvious and the more understanding develops the more it has to know about the more subtle ideas (I don't mean in words) of self. I just discussed some of these areas in my post to Cybele. If there is an idea of having continued mindfulness while eating, walking etc, I doubt that this is the sati (awareness) of satipatthana. Isn't it in fact a noticing, thinking about the activity or the feelings at the time? When there is a moment of sati, it arises just for a moment, is aware of one reality such as hardness or taste but not of a concept such as eating or moving. As Bruce just wrote in his punchy style: >..and can we really decide to perform an act with sati? >is the cetasika sati something we can conjure up when >we want to? >or are we fooling ourselves by thinking we can control >something >that arises according to conditions, in this case, the >paramattha dhamma >cetasika sati? thinking we can control sati might mean >that what is arising >is neither sati nor paramattha dhamma at all, but a >concept of self: "i am >mindful now..." I thought he put this very well. I'm familiar with Mahasi Sayadaw's writings and indeed my first Buddhist teacher had been a student of his in Burma. Indeed is writings are very influential. However, wehen I read them now there seem to be many suggestions of a self who can 'note', 'prepare for this path', 'realize nibbana' etc. These comments hardly help the readers/students to develop more understanding of the namas and rupas (mental and pohysical phenomena) appearing now as non-self. When he suggests that the 'three Morality Constituents' of the Eightfold Path should be perfected before 'you take up insight meditation', again it suggests some impossible task and idea of control that as Amara suggested, is not supported in the Tipitaka as far as I know. Joyce, as usual I've said too much I'm sure. This started as a welcome to the list, but took on another turn which is a little more proof of the uncontrollable nature of the cittas (consciousness)! Please let us know if you have any comments or different ideas. I'm sure anything you any views you express will be shared by many other list members! Best wishes, Sarah p.s. Amara, when it's a particularly long extract from summary, perhaps you could kindly consider using a hotlink to the exact page on yr website. practice mindfulness -emphasis on the word practice. So when there is a lot of obsessing about something, when we are over thinking beyond simple common sense, just note that, when the thought "I am mindful now" arises,or any other kind of selfing arises, just note that...when any desire to control arises, just note that. When concepts are arising, just note, as well as noting the pleasureable or otherwise response to what arises. It isnt a matter of how we are supposed to be, we have enough of that in ordinary consensus reality, its a matter of exploring, investigating what we are beyond what we think or have been told we are and Buddhism has lots of tips and techniques on how to go about it. Although theres no point in accumulating a lot of new rules or regulations, dogmas, views, traditions and so on - we are still required to see for ourselves. So - if one is sincerely attempting the investigations that we are taught to do, then one automatically cuts out anything which interferes with this process - for me drinking would interfere, as well as any attitudes about it. Others may have a different experience. One doesnt need to speculate about others, just find what works (in the context of whatever practice you are doing) in the most simple and direct manner for oneself. One can see if one is practicing correctly by the results. Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts with sati, and the capacity grows. One can eat with sati, walk with sati, etc...and the capacity grows to be continual with the practice. Theres no "mights" about practice...this arises and then disappears, that arises and disappears, labelling drops into seamless continuity and interpendence as the selfing is less demanding. Selfing is present here, not present there, not a problem. It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears even within one's most cherished views. No need to condemn this or anything else, its just natural, what we are working with and those patterns eventually drop. Anyway, the point is investigation into impermanence, suffering and no-self....seeing into what is arising....the texts only give hints, the full picture is experienced for oneself. Metta, Joyce 3591 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts Selamat, > > Are these tapes in English language or Thai? > BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info. sorry for the delay. There are hundreds of tapes in Thai AND English. The Thai ones (probably thousands actually) are very well-organised. The English ones are totally disorganised and there isn't a proper master set at the Foundation or anywhere else- just private collections of unedited ones like the ones we have. We tried to work on this a little when we were in Bkk and Jaran (from this list) kindly edited a set of English tapes from our discussions with Khun Sujin in Cambodia recently. Pls go to message no 2493 for details about ordering these (no costs involved). I think it would be very helpful for your group (and anyone else) to listen to these and other tapes. Once you have listened to these, if you find it helpful, I'll try to arrange for you to receive copies of others. If anyone else wants to order copies of books (by Nina Van Gorkom) from the Foundation, pls also look at posts 2493 and 2958. There will be a hotlink to these posts in the files section shortly. If there is no big hurry, I suggesst you use the email addresses in the first post number and if it's more urgent, that you kindly follow up on Sukin's kind offer (2nd number). > > Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12 > consistent in every > discussion. > Well, that's a good number for discussion. if there is enough interest, you might even entice Khun Sujin to come and visit you all, in which case we'd also try to join as it's not so far! Jonothan spent a year in Indonesia about 30yrs ago and has especially fond memories of Java. Let me know if there's anything else, Best regards, Sarah 3592 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:06pm Subject: Re: Welcome & Control and Anatta again > p.s. Amara, when it's a particularly long extract from > summary, perhaps you could kindly consider using a > hotlink to the exact page on yr website. Dear Sarah, Point well taken, will TRY (honestly!) to keep that in mind, thanks for the reminder, Amara 3593 From: Amara Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 5:09pm Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html > > Enjoy the Sutta! Thanks, dear Alex! Amara 3594 From: Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:02pm Subject: recollecting the devas can anyone tell me about the sixth of the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas? I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc. It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand witness to those qualities within us. I can understand that, I think, but who are these Devas? Any thoughts friends? antony 3595 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 9:17pm Subject: A Single Day of Total Peace Amara wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:27 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: I am back, ? drinking. >Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace, there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since the days of the Buddha himself.< I suggest that anyone who really wants to understand where the things are headed take a look at the article below: http://www.dieoff.org/page67.htm And it is not "light" reading. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo 3596 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 10:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Jina --- wrote: > thank you very much for this information. I am not > familiar > with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a > jhanic state. You wondered (below) about this use. ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment of enlightenment consciousness). This includes the magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who attains enlightenment without first having attained jhana. At that moment, and for that moment only, the citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even though the person has not developed the conditions to attain any jhanic state. So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’ (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as usually so called. At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of the original post again below > Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see > no > reference to it in some of the resource material I > have here. > I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or > if it > has an earlier presence. I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand, except to say that I understand that references in the suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in this light. I will let you know if I come across any other references. > It is, though, interesting that when terms are used > in two > senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi > has both > a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold > path, > similarly, for example.) Would you like to share with us what you know about this? There may well be a connection between the 2. > What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of > jhana? > (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a > question?) Not at all. It takes a whileto get used to a new frame of reference. Thanks for your interest. Jon ================================ When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path and fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level corresponding to the first jhana. [3] For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, and because they possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas. [4] -------------------------------------- 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the concentration accompanying the moment of path citta ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta experiences its object with same full absorption and intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. 3597 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Mike > Sorry to butt in here, but this touches on something > I've been thinking about. Jon, I've found your > comments on the cittas of the eightfold path > interesting and illuminating. However, I also have > a > strong sense that sometimes, when the Buddha talked > about 'right speech', or 'right livelhood, for > example, he was talking about something much more > mundane than the cittas approaching ariyan states. > (Otherwise, the eightfold path means nothing until > it's almost perfected, except as a theoretical > concept.) Glad you have come in. It’s an area that I think we tend to have a wrong handle on. Yes, it seems odd at first that ‘path’ should refer to certain moments that, relative to our present position, are as good as at the journey’s end! But that is clearly how it is when you look into it. It is only at path moments that all eight factors arise together and the path is actually ‘ariya’. However, there is also a mundane path, as you mention below. This would be a moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana. At such moments 5 of the cetasikas that constitute the 8-fold path arise together with the citta, but not of course of the same level as those of the path. One is developing the conditions for, rather than actually treading/practising, the 8-fold path. If this is true, then isn't it also true > of > the other path factors? Couldn't this just be a > matter of 'levels' of understanding, with a very > mundane eightfold path at the bottom (coarse and > conceptual) and the cittas and cetasikas preceding > ariyan states at the top (refined and direct)? My understanding is that when talking about the eightfold path the Buddha was referring to the factors of the path at the moment of magga citta. It would be interesting to see if there are any sutta references to the mundane path. I can’t think of any off-hand. Jon 3598 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. hi gayan thanks for expressing this so well; i'm far too abrupt and mean for my own good :-) in particular, your statement > The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of > alcohol. rings *so* true....if it's ok to have a little drinky every once in a while, then why is it included in the panca sila? i would add to the list of abused words and concepts: "Middle Path", which we seem to use as a catch-all rationalization for all sorts of miccha-ditthi and akusala kamma...as a friend recently said, the Middle Path is not the take-it-easy attitude that some of us would like it to be... bruce At 10:16 2001/02/23 +0600, you wrote: > Dear bikkhu dhammapiyo and friends, > > living in sri lanka I very well know how alcohol has affected the whole > country. > Usually in poya days and other days with any religious significance the > liquor shops are kept closed, so just before those days the queues become > longer , ( people are making stocks of this 'essential' item so they can > ahve an uninterrupted supply during the days ahead). > These are middle and lower middle class people,..so the liquor expenses > spread for a larger percentage of their income as well. > > The word 'moderation' is mostly abused when regarding consumption of > alcohol. > > I very well know myself that how the addiction is gradual. > > it is true that puthujjanas cant keep up with the precepts all the time, but > if one thinks that " I am a puthujjana, so I may break a precept here and > there, so I will drink some beer today..." this is merely the cheating of > oneself. > > I remember a story told by Buddha( or may be by ven.Sariputta) about an > enemy of a King. > The foe with the intention of killing the king, wins confidence of the king > as acting as a good friend and a servant. > The king really has confidence in the servant and entrusts him with 'aide' > like duties. > Having the 'killing' intention all the time the enemy waits for the > opportunity and then kills the king. > > The idea here is , even though the king saw the servant as a good friend and > a trustworthy person ( till his ultimate betrayal) the servant was ALWAYS > the enemy and a traitor, and a would-be assasin. > > Just like that the beings see akusalas as friends, and ways which provides > entertainment and enjoyment. > But they are the enemies always. > > People who think of moderation of liquor places it as a way of socializing, > way of relaxing, way of enjoying life, > way of tasting the essence of whatever,way of dealing bravely with a > consumer item where only losers will end up as alcoholics but not us who > have the enjoyment and all the fun come with it..etc > > regards, > > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3599 From: selamat Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts Dear Sarah, anumodana. Greatly appreciate your kindness. selamat ----- Original Message ----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] English translations of texts > Selamat, > > > > > Are these tapes in English language or Thai? > > BTW, Anumodana, we look forward your info. > > > sorry for the delay. There are hundreds of tapes in > Thai AND English. The Thai ones (probably thousands > actually) are very well-organised. The English ones > are totally disorganised and there isn't a proper > master set at the Foundation or anywhere else- just > private collections of unedited ones like the ones we > have. > > We tried to work on this a little when we were in Bkk > and Jaran (from this list) kindly edited a set of > English tapes from our discussions with Khun Sujin in > Cambodia recently. Pls go to message no 2493 for > details about ordering these (no costs involved). I > think it would be very helpful for your group (and > anyone else) to listen to these and other tapes. Once > you have listened to these, if you find it helpful, > I'll try to arrange for you to receive copies of > others. > > If anyone else wants to order copies of books (by Nina > Van Gorkom) from the Foundation, pls also look at > posts 2493 and 2958. There will be a hotlink to these > posts in the files section shortly. If there is no big > hurry, I suggesst you use the email addresses in the > first post number and if it's more urgent, that you > kindly follow up on Sukin's kind offer (2nd number). > > > > > Our members are only 20-30 persons but only 12 > > consistent in every > > discussion. > > > Well, that's a good number for discussion. if there is > enough interest, you might even entice Khun Sujin to > come and visit you all, in which case we'd also try to > join as it's not so far! Jonothan spent a year in > Indonesia about 30yrs ago and has especially fond > memories of Java. > > Let me know if there's anything else, > > Best regards, Sarah > 3600 From: bruce Date: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:42pm Subject: the Middle Path? before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: what *is* the Middle Path? is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? references please! and many thanks in advance... bruce 3601 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Bruce you are too smart! All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! Apart the jokes, excellent question. Much appreciation Cybele >From: bruce >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:42:50 +0900 > >before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > >what *is* the Middle Path? > >is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > >or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > >or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > >references please! > >and many thanks in advance... > > >bruce > 3602 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:35am Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > >Actually I doubt the world has had a single day of total peace, > there seems to have been some kind of war or other in some area or > another of the globe where men are fighting and killing, ever since > the days of the Buddha himself.< > > > I suggest that anyone who really wants to understand where the things are > headed take a look at the article below: > > http://www.dieoff.org/page67.htm > > And it is not "light" reading. Venerable sir, Thank you for the very interesting article, and you are right, it was no easy reading. Still it makes me think that this is merely in our world, how horrible it must be in the lower realms, even in the 'better' ones like the peta worlds where no matter the amount of food would not satisfy the perpetual hunger. People have asked me if I really believed in hell and heavenly plains, and I tell them that even in this world there are people dying in extreme hunger and disease in India and others born as the Queen of England, still others born in the Arctic regions, or the Sahara, according to their accumulations. How could there not be, in this infinite universe, places or dimensions better or worse than ours? We see different accumulations of kamma daily, people who kill and maim and exploit others, accumulating the cetana that is the principle element of kamma and therefore vipaka, for themselves in the future. The Tipitaka teaches us that what we intend for others is actually what will happen to us one day, whether the act we performed succeeded or not. The person we tried to kill might or might not die according to their vipaka, but we must suffer the vipaka of having the cetana carried out in trying to kill, one day, when the kamma is ready to bring its vipaka. And as we have all been born all things, we must have done worse things than the horrors described in the article before, ourselves, somewhere in the samsara. Which is why vatta is so dangerous, as long as we have not attained sotapanna we are all susceptible to all the tortures of this world and worse. Even the Buddha could not stop his relatives and friends from warring, and could not teach everyone to develop panna. I think we must do the best we can to help ourselves and others, the rest must be up to the individual accumulations, and I still think the best we can give people would be the knowledge with which to help themselves, if they wanted to. If everyone realized there is no self, there would no longer be any act of selfishness, no harming or taking advantage of others. But it is hard for people even eager for this knowledge to realize and experience and impossible for those who do not study at all. The fact is that kammasakata is real, people do have each their own kamma, their own accumulations and all we can do is the best we can in a given situation, I think. Please share your own views with us, Amara 3603 From: Joyce Short Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:29am Subject: for Sarah Hi Sarah, Thanks for your message...Im sitting here pondering what my back ground (karma) has been. I began Buddhist practice in 1967 with Zen master Sasaki Roshi. Later moved to Vipassana as being the most useful approach for a lay householder with three children and now three grandchildren. Have spent some years with Tibetan Buddhist teachers...but still find Vipassana most useful (informed by Dzogchen). Spent some time with Buddhadassa Bhikkhu, Ven.s U Pandita, Silananda, Kundala both when they came to Canada and in Myanmar. Im an ordinary lay practitioner, not a particularily good one. I have a large library but am too lazy to dig out the Pali definitions so can only offer my limited experience as it is in the moment, as how it has been informed by study and practice so far. Picky is OK. Since it all comes under the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and Im happy when someone can point out some obvious lack of awareness here.> > First and foremost, welcome to this dsg list nd it's > good to hear your views and perspectives. If you care > to tell us anything more about your background of the > dhamma or anything else that would be interesting too. > Where are you based? > > You'll have noticed by now that we're all quite lively > and 'picky' here and little escapes all the eagle > eyes! Please don't be intimidated and keep up your > comments and understandings. > > I agree with you here: > >>but if you need to have rules or >>precepts, then have them but dont take on what you >>aren't ready keep or what >>gets your mind in a muddle. >> >>'we practice mindfulness' and >>Certainly we can really decide to perform any acts >>with sati, and the >>capacity grows. One can eat with sati, walk with >>sati, etc...and the >>capacity grows to be continual with the practice. > > You also say: >> It is quite obvious when "me" and "mine" appears > even >within one's most >>cherished views. > > Is it really obvious? At this moment of seeing, is the > clinging (lobha) to self obvious? Clinging to self is obvious to me when it is occuring, awareness of the sense of separateness is present at times, but it just comes and goes as is natural, peekaboo! Sometimes, if I imagine that I see others clinging to self, then I can see my own projection here, or better said, I see the projection, sometimes the whole soap opera. Is there any view > (ditthi) of self that is seeing? It doesn't seem to be > obvious and the more understanding develops the more > it has to know about the more subtle ideas (I don't > mean in words) of self. I just discussed some of these > areas in my post to Cybele. > > If there is an idea of having continued mindfulness > while eating, walking etc, I doubt that this is the > sati (awareness) of satipatthana. Isn't it in fact a > noticing, thinking about the activity or the feelings > at the time? When there is a moment of sati, it arises > just for a moment, is aware of one reality such as > hardness or taste but not of a concept such as eating > or moving. Yes, one can have the idea or concept of mindfulness when eating,(and notes, just is aware of concepts as they occur, and one also has the complete direct experience of moment to moment occurrence of what we call "eating" where there is no one present that is doing something - that subject/object duality isn't present - after which point reflection on this can arise and here one could reflect, "I" am aware" which is the habit self identification. The habit of duality takes practice to go beyond. Mind becomes trained, there is no one there which is being trained, more the natural capacity of mind to be aware, its intrinsic awareness is manifesting itself, mindfulness is inherent in mind which is what the Buddha discovered, he didnt invent it. Now, if you look at this, there could be the habit of feeling a boundary between something eating and something being eaten, to say nothing of a sense of boundary between the "eater" and the entire environment in which this activity is occurring. But, eventually, "one" tunes into what one is really an interdependence with, the seamless whole, beyond the mode of being where there is a subject, a thinker and a thought, a feeler and a feeling etc. When I write to you I am using concepts and the language of concepts, (and doing it rather ineptly). I am selecting bits out of the whole to talk about - but really the whole flow is carrying on. Theres is complete awareness of the whole at this time as well as the focus of this discussion, one can examine the leaf and not lose sight of the tree. Should some habit of preference arise, some reaction, this "I" then arises and grasps it for some moments. It might then seem that there is something separate from everything else in the flow. This does seem to be our habit. One replaces this habit of dualism with the "habit" of mindfulness through Right Effort. This "I" is doing something. Eventually, the effortful habit of mindfulness drops and becomes effortless as awareness is what we all are. I can recall vivdly the exact time and place where I was standing in the dark in a retreat center in Myanmar when it dawned on that I didn't need to make effort to be mindful - that awareness was just naturally flowing. I use concepts when I am learning something intellectually, or attempting to discuss experience with others using language - but most of the time there is only the flow of awareness and there is nothing at all apart from awareness. When something in the flow may by chance seem to be "mine" (old habits die hard)...then suffering arises. But, this suffering "I" arises out of awareness. I could post the Dzogchen view on occurrence, and it does come from the Buddha's teaching, but I note that this is a "dhamma" list, not a "Dharma" list, and so someone might feel Im going astray. I guess it means turning around ones inner langauge so its not "I am mindful now" but "reflection, reflection", "mindfulness arising" much of what comes out of this refelction is the insight that this is impermanent, theres no one here at all - and that if one had the wrong view of things, felt that there really was something to be grasped and then grasped at it, suffering "I" is present. Yet, in practice there is seamless awareness, as the labelling and use of any mental language drops away. Its difficult when reading the words of teachers. It does seem to appear that there is someone talking to someone else. These things can seem quite remote, especially so in the language of Theravada. In retreat with a teacher, the most simple vocabulary is used, and even that falls away into presence of awareness and a communication more subtle than words can ever be. But, it is the mind that is in training, mind which has the capacity of awareness, awareness that recognizes itself, which does sound rather odd. If one can step outside a traditional reading of Vipassana and allow mind to "recognize" a thought, any thought, as a manifesting of intrinsic awareness, of our True Nature, then one is home, but this "recognition" has to be there or one is just creating more karma from dualistic thinking. And essentially, there isn't any difference between nama and rupa, those are just catagories to help us sort out things in the beginning. They are conveniences to help us relate to consensus reality. Everything rising is impersonal, but what is arising is wisdom and compassion. Perfecting the Morality Constituents, just means that one has consciously decided to try to live a certain way, and then after awhile this is quite effortless. One doesnt think of keeping precepts, they become naturally kept as awareness and insight grows. This comes out of the insight that has arisen into the true nature of things. Its not impossible. What is difficult in practice is finding the energy to face and experience fully the suffering which is present in the moments when we first begin, to encounter pain over and over again, our sadness, depression and grief. Our suffering has already prepared us for the Path, our suffering breaks the shell which encloses us in our narrow world of self and other. It takes great heart. I haven't any knowledge to share, but heart I have. Or so it seems on a wintery morning. Metta, Joyce 3604 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:40am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > what *is* the Middle Path? Dear Bruce, I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise... > references please! Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though! Amara 3605 From: Joyce Short Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:47am Subject: Jhana's etc. You will find this topic covered in "The Path of Serenity and insight" by Henepola Gunaratana, if you don't already have it. "The eight stages of jhana are individually analyzed and explained in terms of their relation to one another and to the ultimate goal of the teaching." Joyce > Jina > > --- wrote: >> thank you very much for this information. I am not >> familiar >> with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a >> jhanic state. > > You wondered (below) about this use. > > ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment > of enlightenment consciousness). This includes the > magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who > attains enlightenment without first having attained > jhana. At that moment, and for that moment only, the > citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and > intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even > though the person has not developed the conditions to > attain any jhanic state. So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’ > (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as > usually so called. > > At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of > the original post again below > >> Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see >> no >> reference to it in some of the resource material I >> have here. >> I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or >> if it >> has an earlier presence. > > I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand, > except to say that I understand that references in the > suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to > samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in > this light. I will let you know if I come across any > other references. > >> It is, though, interesting that when terms are used >> in two >> senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi >> has both >> a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold >> path, >> similarly, for example.) > > Would you like to share with us what you know about > this? There may well be a connection between the 2. > >> What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of >> jhana? >> (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a >> question?) > > Not at all. It takes a whileto get used to a new > frame of reference. Thanks for your interest. > > Jon > > ================================ > When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path > and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > -------------------------------------- > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. > 3606 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 1:26am Subject: Re: I am back, ? drinking. --- "Amara" wrote: > Thanks, dear Alex! > > Amara You're welcome, dear Amara! Alex 3607 From: <> Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 2:48am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? --- bruce wrote: > what *is* the Middle Path? Dear Bruce and friends, I've heard that the Middle Path is the Eightfold Noble Path. AT 3608 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 3:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: Glad you have come in. It’s an area that I think we tend to have a wrong handle on. Yes, it seems odd at first that ‘path’ should refer to certain moments that, relative to our present position, are as good as at the journey’s end! But that is clearly how it is when you look into it. It is only at path moments that all eight factors arise together and the path is actually ‘ariya’. ------------ Yes, I think you're right about this. I'd really never thought it through and have just been in the habit of thinking vaguely of the Eightfold Path as a 'way of life', or some such (sort of like the 'Middle Path'--even though I've often told curious non-Buddhists that, in my opinion, 'Buddhism' (meaning Buddhadhamma) is NOT a 'way of life', or a philosphy or a religion. Very interesting to realize I've been prey to just this kind of fuzzy thinking for such a long time. ------------ However, there is also a mundane path, as you mention below. This would be a moment of satipatthana/vipassana bhavana. At such moments 5 of the cetasikas that constitute the 8-fold path arise together with the citta, but not of course of the same level as those of the path. One is developing the conditions for, rather than actually treading/practising, the 8-fold path. ------------ Yes, Kom was kind enough to send me a very informative post about this off-list. Once I've translated an unfamiliar term or two I should be able to make sense of this. ------------ My understanding is that when talking about the eightfold path the Buddha was referring to the factors of the path at the moment of magga citta. ------------ As I said, just from memory of the discourses I've read, I think you're right. ------------ It would be interesting to see if there are any sutta references to the mundane path. I can’t think of any off-hand. ------------ I can't either. I'll try to have a look when time permits, but I do think this is just an habitual misuse of the expression. Thanks... mike 3609 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Dear Cybele and Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > what *is* the Middle Path? --- cybele chiodi wrote: > Bruce you are too smart! > All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! > Apart the jokes, excellent question. > Much appreciation I agree! Looking around for material on this, I found an interesting article at: http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html What do you two think about this? mike 3610 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 0:32am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Namasakara Venerable, It's a very long article indeed. Well, reading this article made me down. I have tendency to be idealistic and at time realistic information is not easy to handle. I like to travel a lot. I have found out most of the population on earth are living in violence, poverty, discrimination, poor healthcare or under compression. I have a book, The World Most Dangerous Places, which gives detail about each part of the world with it's own danger and problem. Only handful of countries are listed under safe and stable situation, north America, western Europe, Japan, Australia. I personally add Thailand on the list. But even in the States, is it truly safe. When I was in training I had to work in the ER once in a while. Every time I were there, there always gunshot cases came to ER. Drug and alcohol problem are pretty endemic in every society. In Thailand the life-span of population will be half of current life-span by year 2020 b/c a lot of young people will die from HIV or HIV related diseases. In Egypt I were not allowed to go off major tourist spot b/c the police said it's not safe. I just got back from Mexico and Guatemala, the Indian there are very poor. Little kids are everywhere, they eat leftover from the dishes at touristy restaurants. I read that about 200,000 Indians in Guatemala were killed in last 5-7 years by the government to erase the "antigovernment" movement. In India and Pakistan, poverty is severe, much contrasts from the story I have read from the Tipitaka. A lot of people are dying from hunger and pain. Well, I just want to share my sympathy. At time I wonder am I different from those people b/c of my past kamma or just by luck or something else. I brought a printout from Dhammastudy group website about Paccaya and read it during my vacation. I have to confess that I am still have a doubt in kamma paccaya. I still want to see the world as a better place for everybody to live in. Thanks for the article. Num PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's own unique appeal. Just a little different opinion, OK. 3611 From: m. nease Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Dear Bhante and Num, --- wrote: > I like to travel a lot. I have found > out most of the population > on earth are living in violence, poverty, > discrimination, poor healthcare or > under compression. Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance, hatred and greed? A good motivation for investigation of dhamma, I think. What else can really address the roots of these social ills? Nothing that I've found... mike 3612 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 5:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Hi, Bruce - > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > > or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > > or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > > references please! > > and many thanks in advance... > > > bruce > ==================================== I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following sutta, copied from Access to Insight: Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 Kaccayanagotta Sutta To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3613 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 10:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Single Day of Total Peace Mike Very well said. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Bhante and Num, > > --- wrote: > > > I like to travel a lot. I have found > > out most of the population > > on earth are living in violence, poverty, > > discrimination, poor healthcare or > > under compression. > > Isn't this all the direct result of ignorance, > hatred > and greed? A good motivation for investigation of > dhamma, I think. What else can really address the > roots of these social ills? Nothing that I've > found... Absolutely nothing else can help. Jon 3614 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rob news Mike A very appropriate reminder. --- "m. nease" wrote: > All that is mine, beloved and pleasing, will become > otherwise, will become separated from me. Dosa can arise, conditioned by the clinging, on account of the loss of the 'beloved and pleasing' object. Or it can arise, even where the object is not a particularly 'beloved and pleasing' one, conditioned dashed expectations or by mana (conceit) on account of the separation and what it 'means'. Either way, lots of kilesa to be known! Jon 3615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas Bruce Came across this post of yours when clearing through my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN > IV 45 as the > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, > there is a form of > concentration that "when developed and pursued" > leads not to jhanic > supression of the nivarna, but to their > eradication..... > > so the point being made is that there is form of > concentration that a > person actively develops and pursues.... > > concentration? to be developed? is this > samadhi-bhavana? ... > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > "And what is the development of concentration that, > when developed & > pursued, leads to the ending of the > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains > focused on arising & > falling away with reference to the five > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, > such its origination, > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > perception, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such > are fabrications, such their origination, such their > passing away. Such is > consciousness, such its origination, > such its disappearance.' This is the development of > concentration that, > when developed & pursued, leads to the > ending of the effluents. " > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html The reference above to - "remaining focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling,...'" is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. So I read this passage as saying that it is the concentration that is developed when satipatthana is being developed that leads to the eradication of the nivarana ie. to enlightenment. This seems to be another way of saying that the concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is developed by the development of satipatthana. The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, and the concentration that is developed when the [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. Jon 3616 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion of kilesa.... i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the shortest of answers: how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? bruce At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > Came across this post of yours when clearing through > my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent > discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. > > > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN > > IV 45 as the > > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, > > there is a form of > > concentration that "when developed and pursued" > > leads not to jhanic > > supression of the nivarna, but to their > > eradication..... > > > > so the point being made is that there is form of > > concentration that a > > person actively develops and pursues.... > > > > concentration? to be developed? is this > > samadhi-bhavana? > ... > > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): > > > > "And what is the development of concentration that, > > when developed & > > pursued, leads to the ending of the > > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains > > focused on arising & > > falling away with reference to the five > > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, > > such its origination, > > such its passing away. Such is feeling, > > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is > > perception, such its > > origination, such its passing away. Such > > are fabrications, such their origination, such their > > passing away. Such is > > consciousness, such its origination, > > such its disappearance.' This is the development of > > concentration that, > > when developed & pursued, leads to the > > ending of the effluents. " > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html > > The reference above to - > "remaining focused on arising & falling away with > reference to the five aggregates for > sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its > origination, such its passing away. Such is > feeling,...'" > is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 > aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. > > So I read this passage as saying that it is the > concentration that is developed when satipatthana is > being developed that leads to the eradication of the > nivarana ie. to enlightenment. > > This seems to be another way of saying that the > concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is > developed by the development of satipatthana. > > The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of > concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, > and the concentration that is developed when the > [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. > > Jon 3617 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? thanks howard! bruce At 21:02 2001/02/23 EST, you wrote: > Hi, Bruce - > > > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: > > > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > > > is it the Middle Path between hedonism and asceticism? > > > > or is is the Middle Path between eternalism and nihilism? > > > > or both? are there other pairs of extremes that the Buddha discusses? > > > > references please! > > > > and many thanks in advance... > > > > > > bruce > > > ==================================== > I think the first of these, the middle path between hedonism and > asceticism, is the primary sense. I seem to recall that being discussed in > the "Turning of the Wheel of Dhamma Sutta", the first sutta. But Kalupahana > also refers to the "philosophical middle path" based on the following sutta, > copied from Access to Insight: > > > Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 > > > > Kaccayanagotta Sutta > > > > To Kaccayana Gotta (on Right View) > > For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma > Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One > and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there > he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To > what extent is there right view?" "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is > supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & > non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually > is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does > not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is > with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not > occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to > attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not > get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of > awareness, biases, or latent tendencies; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He > has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is > arising; and that when there is passing away, only stress is passing away. In > this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, > Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'Everything exists': That is one > extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these > two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: "From > ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. > From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. > From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. > From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. > From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. > From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. > From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. > From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. > From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. > From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair come into play. > Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from > the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the > cessation of fabrications. > From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. > From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. > From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. > From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. > From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. > From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. > From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. > From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. > From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. > From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair all cease. > Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." > > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3618 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: nihilism ==> self-indulgence vs vs eternalism ==> self-mortification and thus my original question concerning the above two pairs of extremes was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it out... as for the final spoke of "right concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say that samma-sammadhi = jhana....oh dear me, here we go again...looks like we are back at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html and the jhana that is not-jhana... bruce > http://www.thanhsiang.org/postgrad/thera8.html > > What do you two think about this? > > mike > > 3619 From: bruce Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting and Paramattha Dhammas long, long ago, jonathan wrote: As for emoticons, I can see some potential for their > use where meaning might otherwise be open to > interpretation. But were you saying in another post > that Mac owners were at a disadvantage in this regard? > (I had always imagined that being a Mac owner would > somehow be a definite plus on the path to enlightenment.) now this is some BIG miccha-ditthi! it's already common knowledge that, among those who are slow on the uptake (ie, all of us worldlings still scrabbling after the Dhamma 2500+ years on....), mac users are the ones still hunting for stegosaurus eggs for breakfast.... >;-) bruce 3620 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 7:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:49:51 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Jina > > --- wrote: > > thank you very much for this information. I am not > > familiar > > with this use of the term jhana not to refer to a > > jhanic state. > > You wondered (below) about this use. > > ‘Supramundane jhana’ refers to the magga citta (moment > of enlightenment consciousness). This includes the > magga citta of the ‘dry’ insight worker ie. one who > attains enlightenment without first having attained > jhana. At that moment, and for that moment only, the > citta is accompanied by samadhi of a kind and > intensity that ‘corresponds to’ the first jhana even > though the person has not developed the conditions to > attain any jhanic state. So it is ‘jhana-equivalent’ > (my term) without being actually a jhanic state as > usually so called. > > At the risk of being tedious, I have copied part of > the original post again below > > > Do you know how wide-spread its use is? I see > > no > > reference to it in some of the resource material I > > have here. > > I am wondering if it is only in the subCmy lit. or > > if it > > has an earlier presence. > > I’m afraid I can’t answer these questions off-hand, > except to say that I understand that references in the > suttas to the eightfold path and particularly to > samma-samadhi of the eightfold path need to be read in > this light. I will let you know if I come across any > other references. > > > It is, though, interesting that when terms are used > > in two > > senses in the same discussion. (I know that samadhi > > has both > > a wide and a narrow use when discussing the 8-fold > > path, > > similarly, for example.) > > Would you like to share with us what you know about > this? There may well be a connection between the 2. > > > What is your sense of the non-jhanic meaning of > > jhana? > > (It's not meant that way, but is that too zenny a > > question?) > > Not at all. It takes a whileto get used to a new > frame of reference. Thanks for your interest. > > Jon > > ================================ > When they [ie. bare insight attainers] reach the path > and > fruit, their path and fruition cittas occur at a level > corresponding to the first jhana. [3] > > For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, > all path and fruition cittas are considered types of > jhana consciousness. They are so considered because > they occur in the mode of closely contemplating their > object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas, > and because they possess the jhana factors with an > intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the > mundane jhanas. [4] > -------------------------------------- > 3. However, even for the sukkhavipassaka the > concentration accompanying the moment of path citta > ‘corresponds to’ the first level of jhana. > 4. The concentration accompanying magga citta is said > to ‘correspond to’ jhana because the magga citta > experiences its object with same full absorption and > intensity of other factors as the jhana citta. hi, I just like correct your wrong view about sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single cittavithi during the attainment of fruition.It is a pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only have some not very sure point about this.sometimes sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth jhana as well. I need 1000 pages to talk about this. fron Teng Kee -- 3621 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:21pm Subject: Re: recollecting the devas > can anyone tell me about the sixth of > the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas? > > I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc. > > It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the > qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand > witness to those qualities within us. I can understand that, I > think, but who are these Devas? Dear Antony, To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, teaching, and love, etc. (I think there are several passages on the qualities of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.) Like all anumodana or mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being exempt from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions. Devas are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension as a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as result of bad deeds bringing results. In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in the advanced section of all the different worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but because of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma and therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that performed the kamma. In other words, what is most important is still to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and accumulate good deeds along the way. Amara 3622 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Dear all, I have a MAJOR RETRACTION to make, I asked Khun Sujin about the Middle Path today during lunch and she said, it is THE PRESENT MOMENT. The study of the present moment is the middle path, not the future and the past. This of course ultimately leads to the eightfold path as Alex mentioned. It could also intend in some parts of the Tipitaka the extreme self torture of some ascetics and indulgences as mike posted. My own answer below is way off because samma samatha bhavana is also development of kusala and therefore can be developed simultaneously with satipatthana (although the conditions are much harder to fulfill than for satipatthana alone, besides creating more objects of lobha in the refined states of jhana). Sorry for the misinformation, Amara > > what *is* the Middle Path? > > > Dear Bruce, > > I think the extremes would be doing nothing and fulfilling the 40 > demands for perfect conditions for samma sammadhi to arise... > > > > references please! > > > Sorry no references come to mind at the moment, though! > > Amara 3623 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:51pm Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > PS : khun Amara, The Sahara is really pretty. The desert has it's own unique > appeal. Just a little different opinion, OK. Dear K. Num, So is the Arctic regions! Actually with my massive accumulation of lobha I go a little crazy over Egyptian art, especially from the Old Kingdom period. We once went to the Pyramids of Saqqara and stopped at an Oasis and it was just amazing to see the blue blue water in the tan sand dunes! Of course cuising the Nile and stopping at the monuments along the river, especially Karnak, was something special for me. I liked both atmospheres, but as I started out saying, the Arctic also has its unique attractions, like the midnight sun in Scandinavian fjords... Not that I mind differences of opinion, Amara 3624 From: Amara Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 9:59pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Dear all, Just some minor points here, I must say I rather take exception to the translation here, what do our Pali scholars think? I would guess for example that 'name-&-form' is the translation of nama and rupa, the 'sense media' of dvara, etc., etc. This over simplification could lead to major future confusion, I think... Just a thought, Amara > From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. > From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. > From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. > From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. > From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. > From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. > From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. > From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. > From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, > pain, distress, & despair come into play. > Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from > the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the > cessation of fabrications. > From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. > From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. > From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. > From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. > From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. > From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. > From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. > From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. > From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. > From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, > distress, & despair all cease. > Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." > > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3625 From: Jim Anderson Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 0:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Bruce wrote: >thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the >second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > >nihilism ==> self-indulgence > vs vs >eternalism ==> self-mortification I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite: "646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl. ~Naa.nanoli "652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self, feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150 The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the following passage of interest: "42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift acquaintanceship." -- loc. cit. pp.15-6 Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful (dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa), and so on. Best wishes, Jim A. 3626 From: Date: Sat Feb 24, 2001 8:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: A Single Day of Total Peace Hi K.Amara, I am too, I think I am a little crazy!!! I have made a goal to travel around the world and visit major parts of each region. I probably can make it within this lifetime. At time I ask myself will I really know the world, people or myself better by doing that. So far, the answer is both yes and no. The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to master. I wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, if I not off the track from the right path. Thanks for your addendum about the middle path. I totally agree that the middle path is always at this present moment and always on the same path as samma-dhiti. Let me share with you my lobha and attachment. I agree that Saqqara had a spell on me. The pyramid slowly contrasted itself from the sand from a horse ride. The Nile is very peaceful on the felucca, totally different from Luxor or Aswan. Well, wish the world is in peace. Num 3627 From: <> Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 2:24am Subject: Re: the Middle Path? Thank you, Mike and Howard, for the excellent readings. Alex 3628 From: Joyce Short Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:13am Subject: Formal Sitting Hi Bruce, Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly established? And that noting or awareness just goes along? What we call the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary concentration will do. If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught. When, through the insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip. The phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp at pleasure as you say. But only by investigating all phenomena (form, feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena arise. One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so on. The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout the life. Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes effortless and natural. Nothing is ever supressed. Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good. One examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So -in the jhanas one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in insight practice. Metta, Joyce > thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming > clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to > arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced > by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of > vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion > of kilesa.... > > i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might > be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll > ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the > shortest of answers: > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? > > bruce > > > > > At 16:47 2001/02/24 +0800, you wrote: >> Bruce >> >> Came across this post of yours when clearing through >> my inbox, and think it might be relevant to the recent >> discussion on jhana and the 8-fold path. >> >> > in ati it's called the "Samadhi Sutta" (and names AN >> > IV 45 as the >> > "Rohitassa Sutta") -- according to this translation, >> > there is a form of >> > concentration that "when developed and pursued" >> > leads not to jhanic >> > supression of the nivarna, but to their >> > eradication..... >> > >> > so the point being made is that there is form of >> > concentration that a >> > person actively develops and pursues.... >> > >> > concentration? to be developed? is this >> > samadhi-bhavana? >> ... >> > here is the last part (worth quoting imho): >> > >> > "And what is the development of concentration that, >> > when developed & >> > pursued, leads to the ending of the >> > effluents? There is the case where a monk remains >> > focused on arising & >> > falling away with reference to the five >> > aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, >> > such its origination, >> > such its passing away. Such is feeling, >> > such its origination, such its passing away. Such is >> > perception, such its >> > origination, such its passing away. Such >> > are fabrications, such their origination, such their >> > passing away. Such is >> > consciousness, such its origination, >> > such its disappearance.' This is the development of >> > concentration that, >> > when developed & pursued, leads to the >> > ending of the effluents. " >> > >> > >> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-41.html >> >> The reference above to - >> "remaining focused on arising & falling away with >> reference to the five aggregates for >> sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such its >> origination, such its passing away. Such is >> feeling,...'" >> is classic satipatthana, wouldn't you agree? The 5 >> aggregates are not among the 40 objects of samatha. >> >> So I read this passage as saying that it is the >> concentration that is developed when satipatthana is >> being developed that leads to the eradication of the >> nivarana ie. to enlightenment. >> >> This seems to be another way of saying that the >> concentraion necessary for the 8-fold path is >> developed by the development of satipatthana. >> >> The sutta clearly sets in contrast the development of >> concentration leading to calm/jhana, on the one hand, >> and the concentration that is developed when the >> [mundane] path is being developed, on the other. >> >> Jon >> > 3629 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:55am Subject: recollecting the devas with Amara My Dear Amara I knew I could trust that you would be of some help. I have posted this question here and elsewhere, elsewhere I got no answer. I suppose I can't complain because I don't know the answer either. What you type is very informative in relation to the subject, from reading Bhuddaghosa (Vissudhimagga) I had come to that conclusion myself. What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about particular divine beings "There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty- three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re- arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that -- when falling away from this life -- they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well." Of course I don't expect that you migt know about who they are and why they are mentioned. But perhpas your good self, or some other member of this Noble Cyber Sangha, may have a lead I can follow. thanks for your help antony --- "Amara" wrote: > > > > can anyone tell me about the sixth of > > the six recollections: Recollecting the Devas? > > > > I'm not familiar with the Devas of the realm of the four kings, etc. > > > > It seems to me what we are to recollect is something about the > > qualities of the Deva, or as Buddhaghosa says they should stand > > witness to those qualities within us. I can understand that, I > > think, but who are these Devas? > > > Dear Antony, > > To be mindful of the devas is not in fact to know them as entities, > but to be mindful of the qualities or good deeds that causes one to > become a deva, several of which we see examples of in the Tipitaka, > such as grateful appreciation and returning parents' care, teaching, > and love, etc. (I think there are several passages on the qualities > of the deva in the Tipitaka/Commentaries.) Like all anumodana or > mudita citta, they arise with kusala citta and sati, and being exempt > from akusala, could also bring panna with the right conditions. Devas > are entities that are born in a superior plane, world or dimension as > a result of good deeds, in the same way that the peta are born as > result of bad deeds bringing results. In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in the > advanced section of all the different > worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, but all that simply to > show that we are not born in a certain place haphazardly but because > of very precise conditions, the result of kusala or akusala kamma and > therefore cetana cetasika, the determining factor of the citta that > performed the kamma. In other words, what is most important is still > to know what kusala is and isn't, and how to end kilesa completely, > which is to increase panna to know things as they really are and > accumulate good deeds along the way. > > Amara 3630 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? jim this is fascinating; thanks for pointing this out.... bruce At 11:56 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote: > Bruce wrote: > > >thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent summary....by the > >second paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > > > >nihilism ==> self-indulgence > > vs vs > >eternalism ==> self-mortification > > I checked the second paragraph of the article which agrees with > Bruce's "eternalism ==> self-mortification". Does anyone know where > this association of eternalism with self-mortification is found in a > Pali text or translation? I ask this because I'm looking at passages > in the Nettippakara.na that indicate the exact opposite: > > "646. Those of view-temperament who have gone forth [into > homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the pursuit > of self-torment. Those of craving-temperament who have gone forth > [into homelessness] outside this [dispensation] abide devoted to the > pursuit of indulging sensual pleasure." -- The Guide, p. 148, transl. > ~Naa.nanoli > > "652. [Again] herein, one of view-temperament approaches form as self, > feeling as self, ... One of craving-temperament approaches self as > possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form, or he > approaches self as possessing feeling, ...." -- loc. cit. pp. 149-150 > > The first approach is based on annihilationism and the second one on > eternalism. On these two types of temperaments, you may find the > following passage of interest: > > "42. Herein there are four ways and four [types] of persons. One of > craving-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of the > foundations of mindfulness as support and with the mindfulness > faculty, on the way that is painful with sluggish acquaintanceship. > One of craving-temperament who is intelligent finds the outlet, by way > of the [four] meditations as support and with the concentration > faculty, on the way that is painful with swift acquaintanceship. One > of view-temperament who is dull finds the outlet, by way of right > endeavours as support and with the energy faculty, on the way that is > pleasant with sluggish acquaintanceship. One of view-temperament who > is intelligent finds the outlet, by way of the truths as support and > with the understanding faculty, on the way that is pleasant with swift > acquaintanceship." -- loc. cit. pp.15-6 > > Compare this to the way the supramundane magga cittas are described in > the Dhammasangani in terms of the way that is painful > (dukkha-pa.tipadaa) with sluggish acquaintanceship (dandhaabhi~n~naa), > and so on. > > Best wishes, > Jim A. > > 3631 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:07am Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara > What I am trying to ascertain is who the particular Devas are that > Buddha refers to. Perhaps that is not important and perhaps any old > Deva will do. But in the sutra Buddha seems specific about particular > divine beings > > "There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty- > three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who > delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of > others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Dear Antony, Khun Sujin does not give much importance to things we cannot prove for ourselves; which we cannot study through the six dvara, but in the days of the Buddha the superior beings did have special reasons to come into contact with our world. The present king of the Tavatinsa deva, Indra, was a great friend of the Buddha's who had shared many maha kusala deeds with him through samsara including towards some of the Buddhas in the past, if I remember correctly, had come to assist his friend in this last rebirth with great saddha, for example he took the Buddha's hair which he cut off at the river (think of how revolutionary this act was in India in those days!!!). He also attained the level of anagami if memory serves, listening to the Buddha's teachings after the Buddha's enlightenment. The night of the Venerable Sariputta's parinibbana for example brought several visits from deva and brahma which was witnessed by his mother, for example, and caused this mother of seven arahanta (I think!) to finally turn from miccha ditthi to attainment of the sotapanna herself. But we ordinary mortals also have other devas, much more earthy and even animal ones, perhaps Jim in his readings have come across the Commentaries' explanation of the terms, which include anything people worship as teachers or leaders, including the worship of cattle and dogs in some sects. In other words, the goat or the dog or whatever becomes their 'deva' within their sect, including humans. The 'devas' born in better worlds because of past kamma are explained in Chapter 9 of the 'Summary', as I mentioned before, from which this is an extract (not too long this time I hope, Sarah! Mainly lists here!!): Since the citta differ in kinds and each kind greatly varies in intricacy, the bhumi where worldly creatures were born would be distinct, there is not only the human plane, or this world alone. And even for the kamavacara-kusala, the strength of saddha, panna and other sampayutta-dhamma or concurrent cetasika of the instant, would be diversely intricate and would organize the result or birth in different bhumi, not only in the human one. (...further details...) The word 'bhumi' means 'okasa-loka', which is the birthplace of worldly creatures of which there are 31 bhumi respective to the levels of citta comprising 11 kama-bhumi, 16 rupa-brahma-bhumi and 4 arupa-brahma-bhumi. Altogether there are 31 bhumi or levels of okasa-loka. Each level has a number of birthplaces, for example, even the human plane is not unique, there are other human worlds. The 11 kama-bhumi comprise 4 apaya-bhumi, 1 manussa and 6 deva summarized as: The 4 apaya-bhumi comprise hell, animals, pittivisaya and asurakaya. (...description of the lower realms including the peta...) There are 7 bhumi which are the results of kamavacara-kusala, comprising 1 human and 6 heavenly bhumi. The Tipitaka explains the human bhumi: the manussa-bhumi where humans are born, comprises 4 dipa (human planets, continents, islands, refuges) as follows: 1. Pubbavidehadipa to the east of Mount Sineru [the hill-shaped center of the galaxy?]. 2. Amaragoyanadipa to the west of Mount Sineru. 3. Jambudipa to the south of Mount Sineru. 4. Uttarakurudipa to the north of Mount Sineru. Those of this world which is the Jambudipa would only see arammana of Jambudipa no matter where they wander. They are unable to reach other dipa which are the other three human worlds. There are 6 heavenly bhumi in the following order: Firstly the Catummaharajika with four principal deva namely Dhatarattha is the eminent deva of the east, also known as Inda, the ruler of gandhabba-deva. Virulhaka is the eminent deva of the south, also known as Yama the ruler of kumbhanda-deva. Virupakkha is the eminent deva of the west, also known as Varuna, the ruler of naga-deva. Kuvera is the eminent deva of the north, also known as Vessavana, the ruler of yakkha-deva. The Catummaharajika is the closest heavenly level to the human plane. Those heavenly bhumi are of increasingly higher levels, respectively to the refinement of the heavens. Secondly the Tavatinsa, which is of a higher level than the Catummaharajika, with Indra as ruling deva. We might have heard of the heavenly Tavatinsa gardens of which there are four, namely: Nandana-vana in the east, Cittalata-vana in the west, Missaka-vana in the north and Pharusaka-vana in the south. Thirdly the Yama is higher than the Tavatinsa. Fourthly the Tusita is higher than the Yama. Fifthly the Nimmanarati is higher than the Tusita. Sixthly the Paranimmitavasavatti is higher than the Nimmanarati. Where does one wish to be born? While one is not yet an arahanta, one must be reborn, but where? Probably not the brahma-bhumi because to be born a brahma puggala in a brahma-bhumi must be the result of very steadfast jhana-kusala as formerly mentioned. Therefore one would probably be born in one kama-bhumi or another, either the apaya-bhumi or sugati-bhumi according to the causes or the past kamma in the samsara-vatta. There are 16 rupa-vacara-bhumi which are the birthplace of rupa-brahma- puggala namely The 3 Pathama-jhana-bhumi [the first jhana plane] comprise 1 Parisajja-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with a weaker type of kusala-citta. 2 Purohita-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with an intermediate type of kusala-citta. 3 Mahabrahma-bhumi is the birth place of those who have attained the first jhana with kusala-citta of refined strength. The Dutiya-jhana-bhumi [the second jhana plane] has 3 planes. The birthplace of those who have attained dutiya-jhana by catuttha-naya (the division of four) or tatiya-jhana by pancaka-naya (the division of five) comprises 1 Parittabha-bhumi 2 Appamana-bhumi 3 Abhassara-bhumi The Tatiya-jhana-bhumi [the third jhana plane] has 3 planes. The birthplace of those who have attained tatiya-jhana by catuttha-naya or catuttha -jhana by pancaka-naya comprises 1 Parittasubha-bhumi 2 Appamanasubha-bhumi 3 Subhakinha-bhumi The Catuttha-jhana-bhumi [the fourth jhana plane] has 7 planes, comprising 1 Vehapphala-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya.) 2 Asannisatta-bhumi (the birthplace of those who have attained pancama-jhana, where no citta or cetasika arises.) 3 Aviha-bhumi are the 5 suddhavasa bhumi, the birth 4 Atappa-bhumi places of the Anagami-puggala who had 5 Sudassa-bhumi _ attained catuttha-jhana by catuttha-naya 6 Sudassi-bhumi or pancama-jhana by pancaka-naya. 7 Akanittha-bhumi _ There are 4 arupa-brahma-bhumi, the birthplaces of those who have attained arupa-jhana (the pancama-jhana where rupa is eliminated and there are only arupa as arammana) respectively 1 Akasanancayatana-bhumi 2 Vinnanancayatana-bhumi 3 Akincannayatana-bhumi 4 Nevasannanasannayatana-bhumi In these 4 there are only nama-khandha or citta and cetasika, with no rupa arising at all. (End Quote) (Please read the rest of the chapter using the link I posted last time, if you haven't by now.) Elsewhere there is a description of the different bhumi's population levels as pyramidal, the higher the world, the fewer the beings there. I think we can glimpse this truth when we consider the simple fact that even in our world there are more animals, such as the huge number of insects and tiny sea creatures, compared to the human populace. (And it scares me somewhat that the most densely populated are the hell worlds!!!) It is also said preoccupation with such matters could bring madness, so knowing about them for knowlege's sake is fine, but to assign them special importance is very unwise. Especially with so much other things to be studied, appearing at each moment, which we let pass without the mindful middle path to increase our vital right understanding, unless we could think of those matters and have moments of awareness of thoughts only as such, thoughts (about things we could never know!) that arise and fall away, according to conditions. And knowing this might become conditions to chage the future conditions as well! Thanks for another great question, Amara 3632 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:15am Subject: Re: A Single Day of Total Peace > At time I ask myself will I really know the world, > people or myself better by doing that. So far, the answer is both yes and > no. The internal journey probably needs more than one lifetime to master. I > wish I can do both internal and external journey at the same time, if I not > off the track from the right path. Dear K. Num, The great thing about your message is that you distinguish the two, and are realistic (mindful?) about both goals, anumodana, and 'bravery and cheerfulness' on both journeys!!! Glad to have another friend who shares some of my craziness(!lobha again!), and who most importantly shares my search for right knowledge, Anumodana in your studies, 3633 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:15pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 315 If I may interject, on a somewhat lighthearted note, I find that the Middle Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean – in which the middle between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric mean – in which the middle between 1 and 100 is 10. With a smile to you all, Yacov Granot, Jerusalem, Israel > before i forget, i've been meaning to ask this group: >what *is* the Middle Path? 3634 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting hi joyce yes indeed, thanks very much for this post....without replying to specific points, i can say that i pretty much agree with what you are saying, as it nicely sums up much of what i've been taught about vipassana-bhavana and concurs of with my experience.... i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of "breath", i am not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned with signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as conditions allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it enters/exits the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to notice whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of course how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another story.... but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal practice called "vipassana" in the texts... apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to cultivate insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i still don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this "considering"...and it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and considered also must be correct Dhamma.... this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there -- ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely wrong from the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma, considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing very wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight practice is possible.... however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me from sitting....right mike? :-) bruce At 16:13 2001/02/24 -0500, you wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Don't you find that if one begins Vipassana by attending to the touch of > breath or motion of rising falling at abdomen that tranquillity is quickly > established? And that noting or awareness just goes along? What we call > the higher jhanas are not necessary for Vipassana practice, ordinary > concentration will do. If the phenomena of the jhanas arises one continues > with vipassana awareness, just note, just being aware. Impermanence, no-self > and suffering are present in the jhanas which is why all the teachers I have > had teach simple calming and stabilizing of concentration and then the > student moves into awareness/insight practice of risings etc. Nibbana does > not arise in the jhanas only in insight practice, or so I have been taught. > When, through the insight, which will eventually arise, one sees the true > nature of all phenomena, its impermanence, the impersonality or no self of > phenomena and the suffering inherent if clung to - then defilements of > clinging fall away, self habit gradually losens its delusional grip. The > phenomena of experience we call jhanas is pleasureable, mind is apt to grasp > at pleasure as you say. But only by investigating all phenomena (form, > feeling, concepts etc etc,) that rise, can insight into these phenomena > arise. One may see directly into suffering and its cause, and thus into the > other two, or one might see directly into no-self and thus into the other > two etc. One continues daily practice beyond the cushion with ordinary > mindfulness, looking into the phenomena that continually rises and > disappears, seeing the occasional grasping, seeing the impermanence and so > on. The more insight develops, the more tranquillity develops throughout > the life. Calm and tranquillity develop as insight develops and becomes > effortless and natural. Nothing is ever supressed. > > Actually, investigation into what we call "body" is rather good. One > examines all the parts and thus identification of self with form is greatly > lessoned, one loses the "ridiculous attachment to the body" thus > investigation of other catagories of phenomena is quite interesting when one > no longer has the imagined boundary of form or "body". "Body" is the > conventional fiction of an object seen apart from its relation to the > universe, without which it has no reality. Our strongest attachment is with > this conventional fiction, major grasping present - fear of death lurks here > which is why its such a great focus for insight practice. So -in the jhanas > one can avoid these lurking terrors (for awhile) but they quickly surface in > insight practice. > > > Metta, > > Joyce > > > thanks jonathan, for bringing these threads together...it's becoming > > clearer and clearer that samatha-bhavana is not necessary for insight to > > arise, and that there is always the danger of attachment to states produced > > by samatha-bhavana, such that they are mistaken for the fruits of > > vipassana-bhavana, due in no small part to samadhi's temporary suppresion > > of kilesa.... > > > > i know this question has been answered before, and at length, but it might > > be of benefit to some of our newer list members (myself included!), so i'll > > ask again in the hope that you can indulge me once more with just the > > shortest of answers: > > > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the development of insight that > > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, what shall we do? > > > > bruce 3635 From: bruce Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 3:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? cybelle wrote: > Bruce you are too smart! > All this must be effect of Vipassana meditation! i'm "practicing" vipassana? wow! and here i was beginning to think it was impossible, that all "i" could "choose" to "do" was read/listen to the Dhamma a lot and then *consider* it A WHOLE LOT MORE.... (which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an sit....) >;-) bruce 3637 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:23pm Subject: Re: Digest Number 315 Dear Yacov, We love interjections here on the list, at least I do. Welcome to the group and looking forward to your lighthearted comments, A fellow member, Amara 3638 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:33pm Subject: Re: recollecting the devas with Amara > In the 'Summary', Ch. 9. in > the > > advanced section of all the different > > worlds mentioned in the Tipitaka are listed, Dear Antony, I just realized I gave you improper directions to the sources, the 9th chapter I was trying to direct you to is in the Part IIa (Citta 9-16) of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of the above website. I just realized that perhaps I will need to rearrange the links a bit so that each chapter has its own link of something, people have been complaining that some parts take too long to load. Will definitely do something about it soon, in the meantime please try out the chapter above, sorry for the confusion, Amara 3639 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:37pm Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma' ch.s 16-20 Dear friends, Ch.s 16-20 finished, enjoy! intermediate section, Amara 3640 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:54pm Subject: Re: Formal Sitting > i do know that, when i sit, i don't attend to the concept of "breath", i am > not thinking about something called "breath" and i am not concerned with > signs and counterpart signs arising....i attend (as much as conditions > allow) to the bare sensation of the *touch* of breath where it enters/exits > the body, to the *feelings* that arise, etc.... basically trying to notice > whatever impinges on the six dvara at the moment of contact....of course > how successful i am at noticing and attending to this is another story.... > > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we can do to cultivate > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the Dhamma, though i still > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do this "considering"...and > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is listened to and considered > also must be correct Dhamma.... > > this would mean that there are an awful lot of people out there -- > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all completely wrong from > the start, and who are wasting their time listening to wrong Dhamma, > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake of practicing very > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal sitting insight practice > is possible.... > > however, none of this has -- so far -- been reason enough to stop me from > sitting....right mike? :-) Dear Bruce, I don't know much about sitting or breathing except that in daily life I just sit or I breath without even noticing it, it just happens, while lots of other things appear even as they happen, or as I sit in front of the computer (breating) and see visible objects and hear and touch as well. There are conditions for such things to happen one of which is thinking about realities as they arise as well as being aware of the different characteristics as they appear. By accumulations this becomes more frequent, this awareness of the present, I don't have to wait for a certain time for me to go and 'sit'. But I think I can understand the force of habit, I have a number of them myself, and from having performed them and become attached to the feelings they bring, one does them over and over again. Music, movies, restaurants, and sitting quietly reading (no, just ordinary ekaggata attention to the book or whatever!) they become conditions for the next citta of the same kind to arise, as upanissaya paccaya (something like a force of habit). And certainly one of the things the 'self' is composed of!!! Just so one realizes this while one is enjoying 'sitting' or communicating through the e-mail, and studies the present arammana as much as one can, everything can be object of right understanding. Amara 3641 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 4:56pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > (which i *am* "trying" to do, really! but it really is time to go an sit....) Have a nice and intelligent, therefore useful, time!!! =^_^= Amara 3642 From: Amara Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:01pm Subject: Re: the Middle Path? > And now a thought crossed my mind; "I" believed "I" was so avant-garde style > but perhaps "I" am a traditionalist after all, what a terrible > realization!!!! ;-))))) Dear friends, To my mind no one could be more 'modern' than the Buddha, in fact he's literally light years ahead of anyone, past, present or future!!! Amara 3643 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 5:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] I am back, ? drinking. Dear Num, Glad to have you back and I hope it was a good trip! --- wrote: > Hi all, > > I just got back. There are too many messages on the > e-group for me to keep > up with. Anyway, I tried to read some. Well, I > probably just roll on with > new mails. Yes, we've all been pretty busy here in your absence and it can be a lot of catching up if you haven't been into an internet cafe or taken a portable with you... Your questions and areas of interest may be quite different since your return, but I sent one message to you (no.3132)on male & female faculty (bhava rupa) which you may have just missed. Please check it if it's still of interest. I think someone also quoted one of your posts more recently on the mahayana/theravada theme, so when you have time you may like to scroll through these messages. > > Since I just got back from my vacation. Let me > start by quoting Sarah's mail. > > < don't > have to go looking for special experiences and to be > unprotected or on the edge in order for there to be > experiences to be known. There are always > experiences > at this moment. Does this make sense?>> > > Well, from my accumulation, I like traveling, like > to see different things, > cultures, civilizations and people. When I travel I > see some similarity, > diversity and controversy in human nature and > culture. And even more > fascinating, at times I have learned something new > about myself as well. > That's the view of my world but as you said the > reality are always here and > now. No matter how far I go, I will not get away > from my accumulation, > kusula or akusula always accompanies no matter where > I go. > Unfortunately that's true...I have a wealthy friend who can retire anywhere. She keeps moving as she tries to find the ideal place. Anywhere is perfect for the first month and then her true accumkulations catch up and the same objects of dosa emerge (the people, the weather, the government, the t.v.programs etc). At least we have a chance to know the real causes of our prolems! >Dhamma is very deep, very fine in detail. This is very true. You mention in another post that you still have doubt about kamma pacaya and also that you feel 'down' when reading articles about various 'realistic information'. Now when we talk about paccaya (conditions) it is theoretical, but when understanding develops stronger and more precisely, it begins to understand the conditioned nature of the reality appearing now and how the akusala cittas affect subsequent cittas and rupas by way of accumulating tendencies and by direct result of kamma (vipaka)amongst many other conditions. Knowing more about the conditioned nature of realities and knowing them as anatta (not self)is the way to develop more detachment to whatever is conditioned at this moment. We can talk about what is conventionally realistic and what is ultimately realistic. As you and Amara and others have been saying, knowing the latter (i.e. what is paramattha dhamma) at this moment is the middle path. > > Glad to join the group again. Glad to have you back! Sarah > 3644 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike I think I may have already discussed this question in another post, so I will keep it short. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Jon, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > [mike wrote]: > > > I take it that we can no more choose to > 'consider' > > > or to 'apply' than > > > we can choose, for example, to 'cause > mindfulness > > > to > > > arise before > > > us'. If so, then 'considering' and 'applying' > > > must > > > arise because of > > > previous conditions (e.g. hearing the dhamma). > > > > Yes, precisely. Does this make sense? > > Yes... > > > So viraya arising at other moments of citta would > > not > > be samma vayama of the 8-fold path. > > > > I hope this helps clarify this rather difficult > > area. > > Yes it does, thanks. But, to echo a very recent > post, > does this really mean that all of the path factors > 'exist' (or were meant) only as extremely refined > mental moments and factors, arising only very near > awakening? Or did the Buddha also intend a more > mundane meaning for the eightfold path, for those > (like myself) only beginning to understand? I know > that a lot of people see it this way. Do you think > this is a complete misunderstanding, a > misinterpretation of the discourses? A pretty big > one, if so (and maybe a big new can of worms)... Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions of the path factors in that same context must be read accordingly. But again, the description of the path factors is descriptive of the functions of the relevant cetasikas that arise at that moment, rather than being a direction to the listener to develop each of those factors individually. Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors instead of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the suttas, as far as I know. This is the development of satipatthana. Jon 3645 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 8:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather than anything substantial. I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread. I notice it was he who first brought up the Path text, and he is obviously very familiar with it. Jon ------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Letā€™s take an everyday example - listening to > someone > > speak. We know from our studies that at the > moment(s) > > of contact between sound and hearing consciousness > > (and ear door) there is simply the bare > experiencing > > of the sound. Each such moment is followed by > many > > moments of thinking of different kinds that > recognises > > the meaning of what has been said and identifies > the > > speaker of the words. > > > > At the moment of hearing the sound, citta (moment > of > > consciousness) experiences the rupa (materiality) > that > > is sound. Both the citta and the sound are real. > > Sound has a characteristic that can be known. At > the > > later moments of recognising/identifying the > ā€˜meaningā€™ > > of what has been heard, the particular rupa that > was > > the sound experienced by hearing consciousness has > > already fallen away and there are only thoughts or > > ideas of words, meanings and speaker of the sound. > At > > these moments the citta which thinks is real, but > the > > object of the citta has no substance or even > > characteristic whatsoever, it is something that > has > > been conjured up by citta (a concept). > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that there is at *most* a > terminological difference between us > on this particular issue. What you just wrote > (above) sounds fine to me. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard: > > > I'll have to get back to you on that. I'm > > > slowly wading through the > > > text. (I had looked ahead to the Treatise on > > > Voidness because of my > > > particular interest.) > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend > on > > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the > Path > > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > > explaining your earlier quote in this way: > "therefore > > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > > > the meaning is that itself is void of another > > essence..". This may put a different light on > things. > > You may like to check it out. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I will look it over carefully. A previous > cursory examination of the > note gave me the impression of going in several > different, even > contradictory, directions. The text, itself, seems > rather clear to me, but I > will, indeed, closely study the note. > ------------------------------------------------------------- 3646 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Teng Kee Thanks for your post. Another tantalising morsel! However, I am not sure that I fully understand what you are saying. So may I ask- > hi, > I just like correct your wrong view about > sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane > jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single > cittavithi during the attainment of fruition. Are you saying that the sukkhavipassaka also attain mundane jhana before moment of path consciousness? If so, what is the meaning of the term sukkhavipasaka? It is a > pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in > anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing > at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com > mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only > have some not very sure point about this. (Sorry, but you've lost me. How do the Myanmar teachers come into the picture here?) sometimes > sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the > text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth > jhana as well. If the term 'Sukkhavipassaka' sometimes means a samathayanika, which of its different meanings is the primary meaning? > I need 1000 pages to talk about this. > fron Teng Kee No need! But a reference or 2 would be most welcome. thanks Jon 3647 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] the Middle Path? Dear Bruce, --- bruce wrote: > thanks for the below article mike -- an excellent > summary....by the second > paragraph the lights were already turning on, re: > > nihilism ==> self-indulgence > vs vs > eternalism ==> self-mortification I thought this was good too, though I think Howard's citation was really excellent. However, > and thus my original question concerning the above > two pairs of extremes > was smoothly answered....thanks for surfing it > out... > > as for the final spoke of "right > concentration"...uh-oh, they do indeed say > that samma-sammadhi = jhana Yes, he's clearly saying this in this article and further states that jhana can destroy defilements. I think this is an error, and have emailed the site requesting clarification. I'll keep you posted if I receive a reply. mike 3648 From: m. nease Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Dear Jon, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Reference to the Noble Eightfold Path is always a > reference to the supramundane path, so descriptions > of > the path factors in that same context must be read > accordingly. I guess what I was aiming at was that, in the following references to the path factors, for example, doesn't it seem that each of these has a very direct application to everyday life, rather than just to unimaginably rare, infinitessimally brief moments on the very brink of nibbana? Obviously at these moments one would not be practicing, for example, wrong speech or wrong livelihood, or wrong-anything-else for that matter. So, is there simply no connection between the eightfold path and everyday life? Am I (yet again) just clinging to old misconceptions? Thanks again, mike "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view. "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to renunciation, to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is called right resolve. "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness. "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. Digha Nikaya 22 Maha-Satipatthana Sutta The Great Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html> But again, the description of the path factors is > descriptive of the functions of the relevant > cetasikas > that arise at that moment, rather than being a > direction to the listener to develop each of those > factors individually. > > Yes, there is indeed a mundane path (5 factors > instead > of 8), but not mentioned as such by that name in the > suttas, as far as I know. This is the development > of > satipatthana. > > Jon > > > > 3649 From: Date: Sun Feb 25, 2001 11:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Hi Sarah, Thanks for reminding. Sorry, I scanned e-group quickly I didn't see your mail on e-group website. I blocked the mail not to forward to my e-mail account before I left for vacation. I got a cold after I came back, so I was pretty much in bed. Well, I am feeling better now. I tried to look from my CDrom Tipitaka, itthiindriya and purisindriya are mentioned at various chapters but does not give much more detail than your quote. From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only knew by mano-dvara but some of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can be recognized by other dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual cognition). All right, here comes my examination. From a book or a magazine, when I see a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a man or a woman. Actually, I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can tell it's male or female voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or at time by smell I can tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A doll, definitely, it's has no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can tell which one is a boy or a girl. What I think I know are actually all pannati. Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the sea (I think that why I got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose or tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct experience. Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy questioning my self what exactly is the thing I call the world. I probably go for another nap. Again, thanks for let me know that I've missed the mail. Num 3650 From: d' Silva Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 9:41am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Hi.. I just felt like coming out of lurking. Thank you for your comments. At 03:50 PM 2/25/01 EST, you wrote: >Hi Sarah, > > >Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the sea (I think that why I >got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at >time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or >sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience >apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose or >tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists >with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct >experience. > But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. Film of tear on edges of eyes. water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo dhatu... May you be well.... Soon. Peace Linton 3651 From: Jim Anderson Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Jon, >Howard > >I think our difficulties lie in reconciling the text >of The Path of Discrimination with other texts, rather >than anything substantial. > >I don't know if Jim has any comment on this thread. I >notice it was he who first brought up the Path text, >and he is obviously very familiar with it. > >Jon I'm not all that familiar with the text. I have studied parts of it, in particular, the first three treatises: on knowledge, view, and mindfulness of breathing. I had never looked at the one on voidness until Howard brought it up. With the translation: "Born materiality is void of individual essence; ...", I would have interpreted it much the same as Howard does. The commentary on the term 'sabhaava' is quite long and detailed. ~Naa.namoli has translated all of it in his footnote no. 1 which I find very difficult to follow and the Pali is just as difficult. It would require a considerable amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, the comm. gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending on the syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are acceptable in the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is translated as "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the other earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese reading and may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm. 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning for me and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. And now with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even more confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this one. My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right translation. The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by itself alone" (or, existence just by itself). Best wishes, Jim A. 3652 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:41am Subject: Re: Rupa. Hi Linton, > I just felt like coming out of lurking. This is great! As the song goes, 'the same old brand new you' except you are really new to us, and very welcome the discussions. > >Like apo-dhatu, water element. When Y swim in the sea (I think that why I > >got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I feel the temperature, at > >time the softness of the water which different from the sand I stand on, or > >sense of motion that I float up and down with the wave. I cannot experience > >apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not through the eye, ear, nose > or > >tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the mahabhuta-rupa which exists > >with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive element but not direct > >experience. > > > > But how about stickiness of sweat on body. wetness of water on hair. Film > of tear on edges of eyes. > water on body. I feel that has a characteristic of cohesion of apo dhatu... According to the texts, it is the tempersture, hardness/softness, and particularly this case of 'cohesion' probably motion/tension as well, that we 'take for' cohesion. Again, a great question, Amara 3653 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:49am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Middle path mathematics Yacov Welcome to the list, and thanks for your post. --- wrote: > If I may interject, on a somewhat lighthearted note, > I find that the Middle > Path often refers (for me) not to an arithmetic mean > – in which the middle > between 1 and 100 is around 50, but to a geometric > mean – in which the > middle between 1 and 100 is 10. > With a smile to you all, > Yacov Granot, Jerusalem, Israel Not having a mathematical mind, the difference is somewhat lost on me. But would I be right in assuming that the perspective of a geometric mean gives more latitude than does the arithmetic one? If so, I'm all in favour! JOn PS When replying directly from the daily digest, please remember to delete material not relevant to your post. Otherwise inboxes, and the archives, get filled with unnecessary material. Also, you will need to change the subject heading to refer to the post you are actually replying to. Thanks. 3654 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > It would require a considerable > amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it all out. First, the comm. > gives a number of interpretations of the word 'sabhaava' depending on the > syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of which are acceptable in > the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it takes up an > interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" which is translated as > "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to refute. For one of the other > earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be two significant > discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from the Burmese reading and > may have led to some confusion in the translation of the comm. > > 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had a clear meaning for me > and all its numerous translations have never made much sense to me. And now > with all the interpretations of it given in this comm., I'm even more > confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help out much on this one. > > My sense is that "individual essence" is probably not the right translation. > The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void of existence by itself > alone" (or, existence just by itself). Dear Jim, It might be easier to understand 'sabhava' through the study of the rupa as explained in the first chapter (towards the middle of the chapter) in the first part of the 'Summary' in the advanced section of . Sabhava as you know applies to both nama and rupa but I think with the description of rupa it is a little clearer. I personally think of it is 'reality', what truely exists and has its own characteristics, some of which can be experienced, others understood only, but which has its own existence. I think of it as sort of a nucleus of rupa, for example in the 28 rupa, the basis would be (...)The four mahabhuta-rupa (the dominant, presiding rupa) comprising 1 Pathavi-dhatu (earth element) : the rupa which is soft or hard 2 Apo-dhatu (water element): the rupa that soaks, saturates or coheres 3 Tejo-dhatu (fire element): the rupa that is hot or cold 4 Vayo-dhatu (wind element): the rupa of motion or tension (...) To this would be added the upadaya-rupa: (...) 1 Vanno (light and color): the rupa which appears through the eyes 2 Gandho (smell): the rupa which appears through the nose 3 Raso (taste): the rupa which appears through the tongue 4 Oja (nutrition): the rupa which conditions other rupa to arise (...) This forms the smallest kalapa, in indevisible group of rupa which is impossible to separate. So far so good. Here comes the sabhava, which does not have a separate identity or existence, it is what I consider the description of all rupa: I quote: (...) When each group of rupa or kalapa arises, it does not fall away at once. Sabhava-rupa lasts as long as 17 instants of citta. 1. Upacaya-rupa is the rupa when it first arises. 2. Santati-rupa is the rupa at the moment it develops. 3. Jarata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it declines. 4. Aniccata-rupa is the rupa at the moment it falls away. Altogether they constitute the 4 lakkhana-rupa. These four lakkhana-rupa are asabhava-rupa. They are rupa without their own separate, distinct reality. But each of the four sabhava-rupa has four distinct characteristics, namely the moment it arises is not the moment it develops, and the moment of its deterioration is not the same as the moment of its development. In other words, upacaya-rupa and santati-rupa are rupa that have arisen but not yet fallen away, while the jarata-rupa and aniccata-rupa are rupa near, and at the moment of falling away. (...) But since the rupas do change, and do have different properties at the different stages, for example some rupas that had just arisen or are about to fall away are too weak to support other structures or competently do their duties, and are therefore truly different from the strong ones which have their full properties, thus having an effect on other rupa or nama that depend on them as paccaya as well, like a shaky basis or one that crumples before other structures could build up on them. The last rupa which forms the necleus and description of the rupa, with or without life, no matter where it arises, (in the heavenly planes or anywhere,) is the paricchedarupa or the '(...)asabhava-rupa without its own characteristics that arises separately; it arises between different kalapa that arise simultaneously.(...)' The rupa with life have other rupa that add to the 'nucleus', (DNA? Genetic codes? Hormones?) that form (...)the rupa with life such as those of diverse entities or people in the planes of the five khandha, there are pasada-rupa that originates from kamma (volition or deeds resulting thereof) comprising: 1. Cakkhuppasada-rupa; the rupa with which visual object can come into contact 2. Sotappasada-rupa, the rupa with which sound can come into contact 3. Ghanappasada-rupa; the rupa with which smell can come into contact 4. Jivhappasada-rupa; the rupa with which taste can come into contact 5. Kayappasada-rupa; the rupa with which cold or heat (fire element), softness or hardness (earth element), tension and motion (wind element) can come into contact (...) and (...) each citta must arise at the appropriate rupa according to the respective type of citta; the cakkhu-vinnana sees, it arises at the cakkhuppasada-rupa; sota-vinnana hears, it arises at the sotappasada-rupa; ghana-vinnana smells, it arises at the ghanappasada-rupa, jivha-vinnana tastes, it arises at the jivhappasada-rupa; kaya-vinnana experiences photthabba through the bodysense (the elements of earth, fire and wind), it arises at the kayappasada-rupa. Other citta besides these arise at a rupa called hadayarupa (the rupa where the citta arises). (...) and also (...) Every kalapa of the rupa that arises, conditioned by kamma, must be accompanied by jivitindriya-rupa. Jivitindriya-rupa keeps the other rupa accompanying it in each kalapa alive, as a living rupa. Therefore the rupa of entities and people with life differ from those who are without. (...) Besides these for some life forms such as ours, there are (...) Entities and people differ generally as women and men because of two bhava-rupa: Itthibhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the feminine sex. Purisabhava-rupa is a rupa that permeates the entire body, manifested in the shape, size, state, manners and demeanor of the masculine sex. Each person would have one bhava-rupa or the other, namely itthibhava-rupa or purisabhava-rupa only, and some people have none, such as the brahma in the Brahma world, and those sexually deviant. (...) These 25 rupa have others arising in order that they perform different tasks, these special 'action' rupa are also 'asabhava' and do not exist on their own: (...) For the rupa of entities and people to move, because of the citta arising with it, there must a rupa conditioned by the citta also, if there were only rupa arising from kamma, there can be no movement or function for the rupa. For the rupa of the body to move and function, there must be three vikara-rupa as follows: Lahuta-rupa is the state of lightness, non-heaviness of the rupa such as the physical conditions of the people without illness. Muduta-rupa is the state of malleability, non-stiffness of the rupa as in well-tanned leather. Kammannata-rupa is the state of task worthiness of the rupa as in well molten gold. The three vikara-rupa are asabhava-rupa, without their own separate, distinct reality. They constitute the special adaptable qualities of the mahabhuta-rupa, which is light, malleable and task worthy. (...) Then there are the special asabhava-rupa for communications: (...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, or emitting sounds in order to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to arise and come into contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can be no sonic emissions. Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that arise fall away with the citta. (...) The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: (...) Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa which comes into contact with the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, radio and television sounds. The 8 avinibhoga-rupa + 4 lakkhana-rupa + 1 pariccheda-rupa + 5 pasada-rupa + 1 hadaya-rupa + 1 jivitindriya-rupa + 2 bhava-rupa + 3 vikara-rupa + 2 vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa = 28 rupa. (...) We know that sound can be produced by totally different elements coming into contact, wind (in the willows or not), whipcrack, drumbeats, rock dropped in water, usually 'hardness' coming into contact, even when the wind blows until its 'hardness' appears to the bodysense. Which is why it is not included in the mahabhutarupa or upadayarupa. Would this help in understanding 'sabhava' and 'asabhava'/ existing and not existing on its own? Amara 3655 From: Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 8:39am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupa Hi All, Linton, first of all, let me say hi. Thanks for the get well soon statement. This is my opinion, you can feel the temperature, hardness/softness of a tear at the edge of the eye, not the cohesion of the tear. The same thing for a wetness feeling and the stickiness. Each moment of those feeling is very short and then a lot of citta arise as well as pannatti comes in. Let me add some more questions from K.Amara's post. <<(...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals according to the citta's cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, or special state of the rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or the demeanor. For example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and prohibitively. If the citta does not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would not arise. >> All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language. Can we really read other's emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and memory? When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see. We see depressive facial feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or he/she is crying. The moment we think that person is sad we just second guess. Can we really read human emotional state? My opinion is, no. I think I play a guessing game, pannatti, all the time. <> So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the TV, CD or radio. There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can perceive it as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. Actually, I have more questions about language and communication both receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking. Well, better ask one thing at a time. Bon Nuit, Num 3656 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:58pm Subject: Re: Rupa > <<(...) When citta wants the rupa with life to exhibit physical signals > according to the citta's > cognition; then the citta is the condition for the kaya-vinnatti-rupa, > or special state of the > rupa that has meaning, to arise accordingly: in the eyes, the face or > the demeanor. For > example, bulge the eyes, grin contemptuously, degradingly, and > prohibitively. If the citta does > not desire that the rupa exhibit signs, the kaya-vinnatti-rupa would > not arise. >> > > All right, nonverbal or paraverbal language. Can we really read other's > emotion or we just 2 nd guess by our own previous experience and memory? > When we see someone looks sad, what we exactly see. We see depressive facial > feature, we see that he/she is blunted, his/her voice is slow or he/she is > crying. The moment we think that person is sad we just second guess. Can > we really read human emotional state? My opinion is, no. I think I play a > guessing game, pannatti, all the time. Dear K. Num, When it appears as rupa through the eyes and ears, certainly. But when it arises right now in your own body, there are rupas that arise from external conditions such as when your body reacts or does not react to things like mosquito bites when all the antibodies rush to defend you without your being conscious of it. Then there are the communications that arise from the citta (both resulting from conditions of course), the citta that arise and cause the rupa to arise at different places (and falling away right there, and new ones to arise at such places,) giving the 'concept' of continuous motion or laguage or positions or whatever. Broken down, they are just nama and rupa arising from different combinations of conditions. > <> > So what is the different between human voice and the voice from the TV, CD or > radio. There is no citta with the sound from TV or CD but I can perceive it > as a language and it's very similar to real human voice. Whatever sound arises from, if the citta did not perceive it, such as when a person is deep asleep or in a coma or simply not there, it is not experienced and therefore does not 'exist' for the person, unless he 'thinks' about it; and as such it is then only concept of sound. > Actually, I have more questions about language and communication both > receptive and expressive---reading, writing, listening and talking. Then let's hear them! This should be interesting, looking forward vry much, and anumodana in your studies, Amara 3657 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? Dear Amara, Jim, Mike & others, What I also find interesting when I read verses like these (you quote below) when I re-read them is to remember that for the arahats like Maha Kassapa, there is no trace of lobha remaining. Just after the verse amara quotes, Maha Kassapa says: "The teacher has been waited on by me, the Buddha's teaching has been done. The heavy load has been put down; that which leads to renewed existence has been rooted out" Still they live their lives according to different conditions and accumulations. Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was known as always being content with little. One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS translation you inspired me to look at, it then says (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am outstaqnding in the qualities of shaking-off. There is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among those who upheld the 'minute observances of form (dhtavadanam)'. I assume this refers to all the vinaya rules as he was the one that called the 1st Council and insisted on keeping all the minor rules. He was also the one who admonished Ananda for admitting monks into the order who were incapable of fully following the rules. Even at that time, they were having problems in the Sangha! Btw, Mike, he was reputed to be age 120yrs at the 1st Council and became an arahat 8days after meeting the Buddha. Some accumumulations and good vipaka also....! Sarah p.s. this has been a very interrupted post and I forgot it was sitting in draft. I've just pulled it out to send and have just checked another translation of the PTS 'shaking off'. In Mrs Rhys davids tranlation she translates 'I stand the foremost in ascetic ways'....I'm sure this refers to living simply, content with little....yes? --- Amara wrote: > >I told him that one of the > most beautiful > poems about nature is in the Tipitaka, more > precisely in the Thera > Gatha, where Maha Kassapa (whose city is populated > 'half by his > relatives and the other half by his friends' spoke > of why he lived > alone in the mountains, although he came down daily > to teach everyone) > spoke of the wonders of the wilderness, 2500+ years > ago. A little > excerpt: > > Those upland glades delightful to the soul, > Where the kareri spreads its wildering wreaths, > Where sound the trumpet-calls of elephants: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Those rocky heights with hue of dark blue > clouds, > Where lies embosomed many a shining tarn > Of crystal-clear, cool waters, and whose slopes > The "herds of Indra' cover and bedeck: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Like serried battlements of blue-black cloud, > Like pinnacles on stately castle built, > Re-echoing to the cries of jungle folk: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > Fair uplands rain-refreshed, and resonant > With crested creatures' cries antiphonal, > Lone heights where silent Rishis oft resort: > Those are the braes wherein my soul delights. > (...) > > (This ends with a beautiful blend of truth and > beauty of course... You > can read the rest of it in Thera Theri Gatha5: Maha > Kassapa, in the > intermediate section of > ) 3658 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 3:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. Dear Num & then Bruce at the end, I can tell you're really back in action! --- wrote: > Hi Sarah, > From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only > knew by mano-dvara but some > of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can > be recognized by other > dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual > cognition). > > All right, here comes my examination. Num, I read this and thought you were going to give ME a tough exam!! (so glad to find it's for yourself.) >From a book > or a magazine, when I see > a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a > man or a woman. Actually, > I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can > tell it's male or female > voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or > at time by smell I can > tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A > doll, definitely, it's has > no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can > tell which one is a boy or > a girl. What I think I know are actually all > pannati. You're really on the right track and I'm very impressed by all your careful consideration. To be a little more precise, the smelling smells a smell for example. Each smell is different from another and indeed different from the smell a moment ago. The smelling citta just smells, but the sanna (perception, memory) which accompanies EVERY citta, performs its own task and recognizes or marks the object so that it can be recognized again. So in this case, sanna recognizes the smell as the scent of a woman and off the thinking and all those pannati go.... And so it is through all the sense doors and body door. Of course even this is a simplified version of what takes place, but it's important to know that smell is all that is experienced by smelling and so on. Also, if it weren't that particular smell at that moment, there would be no stories about the scent of the woman. > > Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the > sea (I think that why I > got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I > feel the temperature, at > time the softness of the water which different from > the sand I stand on, or > sense of motion that I float up and down with the > wave. I cannot experience > apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not > through the eye, ear, nose or > tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the > mahabhuta-rupa which exists > with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive > element but not direct > experience. Yes, all correct..I think you've passed your own exam! > > Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy > questioning my self what > exactly is the thing I call the world. Exactly and this is why the Buddha talked about the world as being the experiences through the 6 doorways..'The world, the world, what is the world...' (Mike may give us the reference...) Bruce, according to my understanding, this is how satipatthana or vipassana grow. Firstly, we need to hear and consider what the world is, in other words what can be directly experienced. For this, there has to be some understanding of abhidhamma because we cannot rely on our own experience. Our own experience is that of moha (ignorance) which tells us we feel water or smell the scent of the woman. For example. it's only by hearing and considering over and over again what the namas and rupas are that can be known, that the idea of self can be uprooted and panna and sati can develop. Let me know if you have other ideas! > Best regards, Sarah 3659 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:05pm Subject: welcomes! Joyce, Thank you so much for all the interesting info on your background. I'm going to write back and refer to this and discuss further with you when I have more time.....I'm trying to shake off a flu virus right now. Linton, Yacov, A big welcome to the list....Linton, I'm so glad you've come out of lurking and hope you stay out now you've cut that ice! Where are you based? Yacov, you may be our first member from Israel....we're really all over the place now (tho' possibly Africa is rather under-represented). If either of you are inclined to let us know a little more about your interest in Buddhism and how you made your way to the list, that would be good to hear. Enjoy all the meaty (and less meaty) posts and let us know if you have any problems! Sarah 3660 From: Amara Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 4:28pm Subject: One more 'Word' Dear friends, We've added 'Rupa' to the section 'A Few Words' in , Enjoy, Amara 3661 From: bruce Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rupa. thanks so much sarah, your recent posts have been very clear and helpful! bruce 3662 From: teng kee ong Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 7:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:37:11 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Teng Kee > > Thanks for your post. Another tantalising morsel! > > However, I am not sure that I fully understand what > you are saying. So may I ask- > > > hi, > > I just like correct your wrong view about > > sukkhavipassaka samadhi.The samadhi means mundane > > jhana and it is not in not a one moment in a single > > cittavithi during the attainment of fruition. > > Are you saying that the sukkhavipassaka also attain > mundane jhana before moment of path consciousness? If > so, what is the meaning of the term sukkhavipasaka? > > It is a > > pair of teaching like in dhammadayada sutta and in > > anguttara nikaya.the insight and jhana are not doing > > at the same for sukkhavipasska-no com and sub com > > mentioned about this but those myanmar teachers only > > have some not very sure point about this. > > (Sorry, but you've lost me. How do the Myanmar > teachers come into the picture here?) > > sometimes > > sukkhavipassaka means a samathayanika as well in the > > text about arahant without iddhi.the can have fourth > > jhana as well. > > If the term 'Sukkhavipassaka' sometimes means a > samathayanika, which of its different meanings is the > primary meaning? > > > I need 1000 pages to talk about this. > > fron Teng Kee > > No need! But a reference or 2 would be most welcome. > > thanks > > Jon > > Dear Jon, there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of yogi.But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada sutta com and sub com.Ariya one citta moment seems to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they are not very sure when they read patisambhida com which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see the book critism and replies by them).The dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya citta in citta vithi series in different place because they used the word niddharana sami vacana for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a easier way.Can you understand how hard it is to talk about this?In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last sutta about losing of true dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi (regardless there attain as samathayanika or sukkavipassaka). Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the jhana just come out due to insight at the end of that insight (before that citta vithi of attainment).But monk can be having jhana but still attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as emerge from jhana). I have no time to write becuse i am using my office computer (is is free) From Teng Kee 3663 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:57pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Bruce Thanks for the question. > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the > development of insight that > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, > what shall we do? This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to answer briefly, but here goes. As you know, there is no ‘we’ who can practise. But we also need to realise that there is no ‘practice’ to be done either in any generally accepted sense of the word. Vipassana bhavana is the ‘making become’ (bhavana) of understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to become (ie. developed)? Understanding is something that grows by gradual accretion, given the right conditions. One of those conditions is a correct understanding, from listening to and studying the texts (pariyatti –‘theory’), of exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. Many people are not much interested in this. They regard the study of the texts, intellectual understanding, listening and considering (call it what you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg and other nerds. They also seem to think that having an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest in understanding at other levels. This totally misses the point that understanding at a deeper level (patipatti – ‘practice’) can only occur if the proper basis is there. The other point that is not appreciated is that the different levels of understanding are interdependent and mutually supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of listening, considering, applying, realising. Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna (understanding acquired through listening, considering and realising). This cycle continues until enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are to be left behind. So, keeping it as brief as possible: Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, it’s a question of the development of understanding. The understanding to be developed is the understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it is all about studying more, knowing more about the reality appearing at the present moment. It’s sounds simple, I know, but there’s nothing easy about it! I hope this helps a little. Jon 3664 From: Joyce Short Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:50pm Subject: subject is? Isn't a little easier to study this from the operation of Dependent Origination? "Bhikkhus! What is the arising of the world like? Conditioned by eye and form, eye consciousness arises. (and ear consciousness with its object and the rest of the senses, touch, smell etc.) These three coming together are contact. With contact as a condition, feeling arises. With feeling as a condition, craving arises. With craving as a condition, attachment arises. With attachment as a condition, existence arises. With existence as a condition, birth (the "I") arises. With birth as a condition, old age, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and tribulation arise. Bhikkhus! This is the arising of the world". The arising of Dependent Orgination as generally related is what the Buddha said is "the birth of the world." The arising of suffering is the birth of the world. And it arises only when the internal and external sense bases come in contact and consciousness arises." It is a difficult matter, from ignorance (lack of awareness in any given moment) giving rise to mental concocting, consciousness, mentality/materiliality (nama/rupa) and sense bases to distinguish all these separate factors because they are faster than lightening. The first thing we know is that we have a feeling, either pleasant or unpleasant, comfortable or uncomfortable. It is hard to do using the fine details. So, it is easier to take small examples... While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that it tastes good and you have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for that good taste, then at that moment, consciousness is established and fully blossoms. This means that before you can fully chew and swallow your food, there are many opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This is good! Yummy! I gotta have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that way, consciousness arises, it conditions the arising of mentality and materiality. Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many times also, in response to the condition of consciousness, all in the space of chewing a mouthful of rice. So it is that the Buddha said that wherever consciousness arises (at all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a mouthful of food, there it is established and blossoms." This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent Origination" from the teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the word "practical" so that we can really understand it simply and apply. He gives simple examples of the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is interested. "Smelling a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or not "I" habit attached says whether of not suffering will then arise. Through attachment this "I" or consciousness is born and then with the disppearance of what occured, this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness again - birth and death of the "world" in each moment. So - it is interesting to look to see where consciousness of whatever kind, from what ever sense contact) is arising from. Metta, Joyce > >> Hi Sarah, >> From your 3132 mail, Bhavarupa can be only >> knew by mano-dvara but some >> of the characters which conditioned by bhavarupa can >> be recognized by other >> dvara, (in your mail, you mentioned only visual >> cognition). >> >> All right, here comes my examination. > > Num, I read this and thought you were going to give ME > a tough exam!! (so glad to find it's for yourself.) > >>From a book >> or a magazine, when I see >> a picture, I usually can tell it's a picture of a >> man or a woman. Actually, >> I see only color, right? From a TV or radio, I can >> tell it's male or female >> voices, but in reality I can hear only a sound. Or >> at time by smell I can >> tell, like someone said it's scent of a woman. A >> doll, definitely, it's has >> no bhavarupa, but if I go to the mall I always can >> tell which one is a boy or >> a girl. What I think I know are actually all >> pannati. > > You're really on the right track and I'm very > impressed by all your careful consideration. To be a > little more precise, the smelling smells a smell for > example. Each smell is different from another and > indeed different from the smell a moment ago. The > smelling citta just smells, but the sanna (perception, > memory) which accompanies EVERY citta, performs its > own task and recognizes or marks the object so that it > can be recognized again. So in this case, sanna > recognizes the smell as the scent of a woman and off > the thinking and all those pannati go.... And so it is > through all the sense doors and body door. Of course > even this is a simplified version of what takes place, > but it's important to know that smell is all that is > experienced by smelling and so on. Also, if it weren't > that particular smell at that moment, there would be > no stories about the scent of the woman. >> >> Like apo-dhatu, water element. When I swim in the >> sea (I think that why I >> got a cold, too much swimming on my vacation), I >> feel the temperature, at >> time the softness of the water which different from >> the sand I stand on, or >> sense of motion that I float up and down with the >> wave. I cannot experience >> apo-dhatu through my body sense, definitely not >> through the eye, ear, nose or >> tongue. From my reading, apo-dhatu is one of the >> mahabhuta-rupa which exists >> with every rupa. So, so far I can think of cohesive >> element but not direct >> experience. > > Yes, all correct..I think you've passed your own exam! > > >> > Well, I don't think I think too much but I enjoy >> questioning my self what >> exactly is the thing I call the world. > > Exactly and this is why the Buddha talked about the > world as being the experiences through the 6 > doorways..'The world, the world, what is the world...' > (Mike may give us the reference...) > > Bruce, according to my understanding, this is how > satipatthana or vipassana grow. Firstly, we need to > hear and consider what the world is, in other words > what can be directly experienced. For this, there has > to be some understanding of abhidhamma because we > cannot rely on our own experience. Our own experience > is that of moha (ignorance) which tells us we feel > water or smell the scent of the woman. For example. > it's only by hearing and considering over and over > again what the namas and rupas are that can be known, > that the idea of self can be uprooted and panna and > sati can develop. Let me know if you have other ideas! > >> > Best regards, > > Sarah > 3665 From: bruce Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of this is the most succinct answer to my annoying question yet, jonathan; thanks for your effort at putting this explantion into the realm of the accessible. let me let this one ripen a bit more before i try to peel it.... bruce At 22:57 2001/02/26 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > Thanks for the question. > > > how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the > > development of insight that > > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, > > what shall we do? > > This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to > answer briefly, but here goes. > > As you know, there is no ĮŲeƁwho can practise. But > we also need to realise that there is no ĮŃracticeƁto > be done either in any generally accepted sense of the > word. > > Vipassana bhavana is the ĮĪaking becomeƁ(bhavana) of > understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we > actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to > become (ie. developed)? > > Understanding is something that grows by gradual > accretion, given the right conditions. One of those > conditions is a correct understanding, from listening > to and studying the texts (pariyatti Ėńtheory , of > exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. > > Many people are not much interested in this. They > regard the study of the texts, intellectual > understanding, listening and considering (call it what > you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg > and other nerds. They also seem to think that having > an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest > in understanding at other levels. > > This totally misses the point that understanding at a > deeper level (patipatti ĖĮŃractice can only occur > if the proper basis is there. The other point that is > not appreciated is that the different levels of > understanding are interdependent and mutually > supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of > listening, considering, applying, realising. > Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha > (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna > (understanding acquired through listening, considering > and realising). This cycle continues until > enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are > to be left behind. > > So, keeping it as brief as possible: > Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, > itĆŌ a question of the development of understanding. > The understanding to be developed is the understanding > of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it > is all about studying more, knowing more about the > reality appearing at the present moment. > > ItĆŌ sounds simple, I know, but thereĆŌ nothing easy > about it! I hope this helps a little. > > Jon > 3666 From: Joyce Short Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:11pm Subject: "Vipassana" One could see this term in two ways: There is the study and practice of the methods taught by the Buddha where one prepares mind so that insight is possible. Insight into what? Insight into the true nature of self and things, impermanence, suffering and no self. Insight into the fact that all appearances of nirvana and samsara are complete within and never pass beyond, the great expanse of suchness and sameness, which is the very nature of the awareness of each and every being, the sugatagarbha, or Buddha-nature, the nature of all things that is beyond elaboration and conceptualization There is the recognition or insight in to the nature of all things; it is a vipassana, a wisdom, or prajna, which is revealed through the practice of meditation and methods. The revelation by means of wisdom, of the wisdom of emptiness and impermance of all things is one of the two aspects of meditation that must be present. For this to occur properly, this generation of insight must be founded in a one-pointed even placement, or shamatha, that is, of the nature of great conmpassion, of a non conceptual, all pervasive loving-kindness and compassion. And here we find the practices of metta, compassion, sympathetic joy, the six perfections etc. Without cultivating and generating these mind states, practice becomes unbalanced and abstract, wisdom cannot arise. The "I" attachess to mind consciousness/intellect. In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by insight must be experienced with compassion. The insight itself must be conjoined with tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect must never be separated form the method aspect. This in meditation, the cognition of emptiness has the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes beyond jhanas and calming the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. Metta, Joyce ---------- >From: >> > Bruce > > Thanks for the question. > >> how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the >> development of insight that >> leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, >> what shall we do? > > This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to > answer briefly, but here goes. > > As you know, there is no ‘we’ who can practise. But > we also need to realise that there is no ‘practice’ to > be done either in any generally accepted sense of the > word. > > Vipassana bhavana is the ‘making become’ (bhavana) of > understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we > actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to > become (ie. developed)? > > Understanding is something that grows by gradual > accretion, given the right conditions. One of those > conditions is a correct understanding, from listening > to and studying the texts (pariyatti –‘theory’), of > exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. > > Many people are not much interested in this. They > regard the study of the texts, intellectual > understanding, listening and considering (call it what > you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg > and other nerds. They also seem to think that having > an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest > in understanding at other levels. > > This totally misses the point that understanding at a > deeper level (patipatti – ‘practice’) can only occur > if the proper basis is there. The other point that is > not appreciated is that the different levels of > understanding are interdependent and mutually > supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of > listening, considering, applying, realising. > Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha > (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna > (understanding acquired through listening, considering > and realising). This cycle continues until > enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are > to be left behind. > > So, keeping it as brief as possible: > Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, > it’s a question of the development of understanding. > The understanding to be developed is the understanding > of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it > is all about studying more, knowing more about the > reality appearing at the present moment. > > It’s sounds simple, I know, but there’s nothing easy > about it! I hope this helps a little. > > Jon > 3667 From: Date: Mon Feb 26, 2001 7:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Hi Jon, I really appreciate your response. I agree with you and cannot add anything more. Num 3668 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:29am Subject: consciousness- citta- vinnana Dear Joyce, Many thanks for all your contributions to the list. I have several of your messages marked to reply to, but I'll start here as this is in front of me now: --- "Joyce Short" wrote: > Isn't a little easier to study this from the operation of Dependent > Origination? > > "Bhikkhus! What is the arising of the world like? Conditioned by eye and > form, eye consciousness arises.........." O.K. we all accept this is what the Buddha taught and yes, here he helpfully refers to the worlds through the various doorways. Thank you for the apt quote. > > While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that it tastes good and you > have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for that good taste, then at > that moment, consciousness is established and fully blossoms. This is not consciousness (vinnana or citta as discussed above by the Buddha). Consciousness (citta) arises at every moment regardless of any lobha. This was true for the Buddha, the arahats and is true for those with no interest in the Buddha's teachings. >This means > that before you can fully chew and swallow your food, there are many > opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This is good! Yummy! I gotta > have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that way, consciousness > arises, I think you're confusing consciousness (citta) with concepts (pannatti) >it conditions the arising of mentality and materiality. > Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many times also, in response to > the condition of consciousness, all in the space of chewing a mouthful of > rice. Sorry, but this is very confusing. Citta is a nama already. >So it is that the Buddha said that wherever consciousness arises (at > all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a mouthful of food, there it > is established and blossoms." > > This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent Origination" from the > teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the word "practical" so that > we can really understand it simply and apply. Actually it's another nama, panna (wisdom) that learns to understand realities, but it doesn't apply anything. Misunderstanding of nama (including citta) and rupa is what gives the misapprehension that a self really canunderstand and apply. >He gives simple examples of > the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is interested. "Smelling > a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or not "I" habit attached > says whether of not suffering will then arise. The inherent nature of all namas and rupas is that of unsatisfactoriness or suffereing (dukkha) already. Why? Because all namas and rupas are impermanent. This is regardless of whether there is any (wrong) idea of self or not or whatever the habits are. (Sabbe sankhara dukkha...etc) >Through attachment this "I" > or consciousness is born and then with the disppearance of what occured, > this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness again - birth and death > of the "world" in each moment. Joyce, I would say that as a result of wrong view (micha ditthi) and ignorance (moha) there is a wrong view of self. I agree that there is birth and death of the 'world' at each moment, but no 'I' whatever ignorance and wrong view take to be the case. No self in the citta (consciousness). I highly recommend you (and anyone else) read 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina Van Gorkom, which Amara is in the process of putting on her website (links on the dsg homepage). i can't stress enough how helpful I find it to have a little understanding of abhidhamma whilst reading the suttas. Best regards, Sarah 3669 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:51am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] "Vipassana" Dear Joyce, --- Joyce Short wrote: > One could see this term in two ways: > > There is the study and practice of the methods > taught by the Buddha where > one prepares mind so that insight is possible. Where does the Buddha say this? > Insight into what? Insight > into the true nature of self and things, > impermanence, suffering and no > self. Insight into the fact that all appearances of > nirvana and samsara are > complete within and never pass beyond, the great > expanse of suchness and > sameness, which is the very nature of the awareness > of each and every being, > the sugatagarbha, or Buddha-nature, the nature of > all things that is beyond > elaboration and conceptualization Is there any source in the Tipitaka for this? > > There is the recognition or insight in to the nature > of all things; it is a > vipassana, a wisdom, or prajna, which is revealed > through the practice of > meditation and methods. The revelation by means of > wisdom, of the wisdom of > emptiness and impermance of all things is one of the > two aspects of > meditation that must be present. For this to occur > properly, this > generation of insight must be founded in a > one-pointed even placement, or > shamatha, that is, of the nature of great > conmpassion, of a non conceptual, > all pervasive loving-kindness and compassion. And > here we find the > practices of metta, compassion, sympathetic joy, the > six perfections etc. > Without cultivating and generating these mind > states, practice becomes > unbalanced and abstract, wisdom cannot arise. The > "I" attachess to mind > consciousness/intellect. Joyce, you started off talking about as 'taught by the Buddha'....please would you refer us to some sources as much of what you have written is contradictory to what I have read in the Tipitaka. > > In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by > insight must be > experienced with compassion. The insight itself must > be conjoined with > tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect > must never be separated > form the method aspect. This in meditation, the > cognition of emptiness has > the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes > beyond jhanas and calming > the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. I look forward to reading your references to where the Buddha speaks of this. Some people lack confidence in the value of the Buddha's actual teachings or say they find these hard to follow. For me, the more I consider and study these teachings, the more understanding and confidence grow in the power of panna (wisdom) to really know these realities, the 6 worlds, as they are and the less inclined I am to follow other teachers with other interpretations. I'm sniffling away here and need to get some more rest now! metta also, Sarah 3670 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:58am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rupa Hi all, Please pardon me for my obsession. It's still not clear to me what's the difference between the two rupas, vaci-vinnatti-rupa and sadda-rupa. > Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, > or emitting sounds in order > to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to > arise and come into > contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the > vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can > be no sonic emissions. > > Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that > arise fall away with the citta. > > The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: > Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa > > which comes into contact with > the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the > sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise > from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, > radio and television > sounds. Are they different just by the sources of origin? As I mentioned before, my computer or tape recorder and make sound mimic to human and nonhuman voices. The voices from both nonanimal and animal are both just sound but in animal, citta causes vaci-vinnatti-rupa to be the base for the origin of a sound. Am I correct? Let me clarify a little more by making thing a little more complicated. This is from dhammastudy website, summary of paramatthadhamma part VI : <> I think this has already answered my question that vaci-vinnatti-rupa is a paccaya for sadda-rupa in case of human voices. Let me drag you guys along a little further. In case of stroke (cerebrovascular accident, or paralysis), some people could not talk after the stroke (expressive aphasia) or in some cases they still can hear the sound but no longer appreciate the speech any more (receptive aphasia). Some cannot move their limbs and some cannot appreciate facial expression of other. Well, it's kind of exciting that the Tipitaka has mentioned this. And also remind me that hearing is at a different moment from comprehension and association. Citta and cetasika are very complicated phenomena. I will very appreciate an input. Num 3671 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:05am Subject: Re: Rupa > It's still not clear to me what's the > difference between the two rupas, vaci-vinnatti-rupa and sadda-rupa. Dear K. Num, As I understand it, vaci-vinnatti-rupa are rupa that the citta (mainly cetana cetasika doing its duty) produces, the rupa that cause sound ('tongue, teeth, throat, vocal cords, lungs', and motion/tension, hardness, etc. of that instant) to arise (for example without friction sound cannot arise, and friction is caused by the rupa of hardness and motion, as well as other rupa, I think). It is also under no one's control which is why sometimes the sounds come out different than what the 'intention' intends, depending on many conditions (paccaya). Which is why, as you observed, some people can't speak even when they try (infants or invalids). sadda-rupa is the sound itself, whatever it is produced by. Isn't it amazing that a simple thing like speaking or hearing depends on so many paccaya (conditions)? Even as we sit here in front of the computer, so many factors come into play. But the conditions for understanding of things as they really are stills is the study of the realities that present themselves at the present moment. Enjoy studying, Amara > > Whenever citta is condition for sound to arise verbally, speaking, > > or emitting sounds in order > > to convey meaning, the citta is condition for vaci-vinnatti-rupa to > > arise and come into > > contact with the articulators such as the lips. If the > > vaci-vinnatti-rupa does not arise, there can > > be no sonic emissions. > > > > Kaya -vinnatti-rupa and vaci-vinnatti-rupa are asabhava-rupa that > > arise fall away with the citta. > > > > The last is sound, a special condition of the rupa: > > > > Sound or sadda-rupa is not a vaci-vinnatti-rupa but the rupa > > > > which comes into contact with > > the Sotappasada-rupa, conditioning the arising of the > > sota-vinnana-citta. Some sounds arise > > from citta; some do not, for example, thunder, storm, engine, drum, > > radio and television > > sounds. > > > Are they different just by the sources of origin? As I mentioned before, my > computer or tape recorder and make sound mimic to human and nonhuman voices. > The voices from both nonanimal and animal are both just sound but in animal, > citta causes vaci-vinnatti-rupa to be the base for the origin of a sound. > Am I correct? > > Let me clarify a little more by making thing a little more complicated. This > is from dhammastudy website, summary of paramatthadhamma part VI : > > < > There are 6 kalapa arising with citta as samutthana comprising > > 1. Suddhatthaka-kalapa is the kalapa with uniquely the 8 avinibhoga-rupa and > no other rupa concurrently arising. > > After the patisandhi-citta has fallen away the bhavanga-citta would arise in > continuation. The cittaja-rupa which is a suddhatthaka-kalapa would arise at > the upada-khana of the pathama-bhavanga-citta and every upada-khana of the > citta exempting the 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta, which are too weak to be > samutthana for rupa to arise. > > There are 16 citta that are not samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise: the 4 > arupa-jhana-vipaka-citta, the patisandhi-citta, the 10 > davi-panca-vinnana-citta and the cuti-citta of the arahanta, making > altogether 16 citta. > > The 4 arupa-jhana-vipaka-citta are not samutthana for rupa to arise because > they are results of arupa-jhana-kusala, which sees the harm of rupa as the > dhamma that supports kilesa so there is the development of arupa-jhana-kusala > without any rupa as arammana. So when the arupa-jhana-vipaka perform > patisandhi in the arupa-brahma-bhumi, there are no paccaya for any rupa to > arise at all. > > The patisandhi-citta is not samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise because it > is the first citta in the lifetime. Therefore it is not yet strong enough to > be samutthana for cittaja-rupa to arise. > > The cuti-citta of the arahanta is not samutthana for rupa to arise because it > is the last citta of the samsara-vatta, which ends the status of being > paccaya for rupa to arise. > > 2. Kaya-vinnatti-navaka-kalapa, the group of kaya-vinnatti-rupa comprising 9 > rupa: the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + kaya-vinnatti-rupa, which would arise at the > upada-khana of the citta that wants rupa to convey meanings. > > 3. Vaci-vinnatti-sadda-dasaka-kalapa, the group of 10 rupa comprising the 8 > avinibhoga-rupa + vaci-vinnatti-rupa + sadda-rupa, would arise at the > upada-khana of the citta which is the samutthana of sound or speech. > > 4. Lahutadi-ekadasaka-kalapa, the group of 11 rupa comprising the 8 > avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa, would arise at the upada-khana of the > citta that wants the rupa to evolve in different physical positions. > > 5. Kaya-vinnatti-lahutadi-davadasaka-kalapa, the group of 12 rupa comprising > the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa + kaya-vinnatti-rupa, would arise > at the upada-khana of the citta that wants the rupa to evolve in different > manners and actions that convey meanings. > > 6. Vaci-vinnatti-sadda-lahutadi-tredasaka-kalapa, the group of 13 rupa > comprising the 8 avinibhoga-rupa + the 3 vikara-rupa + vaci-vinnatti-rupa + > sadda-rupa would arise at the upada-khana of the citta that wants special > sound to arise from vikara-rupa thereby causing the specific sound to arise > at the articulators (bases of the sound). > > All cittaja-kalapa must arise simultaneously the upada-khana of the citta > that is its samutthana to arise. The cittaja-kalapa would never arise in the > thiti-khana or bhanga-khana. > >> > > I think this has already answered my question that vaci-vinnatti-rupa is a > paccaya for sadda-rupa in case of human voices. > > Let me drag you guys along a little further. In case of stroke > (cerebrovascular accident, or paralysis), some people could not talk after > the stroke (expressive aphasia) or in some cases they still can hear the > sound but no longer appreciate the speech any more (receptive aphasia). Some > cannot move their limbs and some cannot appreciate facial expression of > other. Well, it's kind of exciting that the Tipitaka has mentioned this. > And also remind me that hearing is at a different moment from comprehension > and association. Citta and cetasika are very complicated phenomena. > > I will very appreciate an input. > > Num 3672 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:18am Subject: Re: Where in Diamond Sutra? > What I also find interesting when I read verses like > these (you quote below) when I re-read them is to > remember that for the arahats like Maha Kassapa, there > is no trace of lobha remaining. Dear Sarah, Thanks for this great reminder, Sarah, what we read with mostly mundane pleasure was said with piti and kiriya citta exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. But even from linguistic points of view, one can see the great wisdom of the great councils of arahanta in using the rythms of the language in order to help the memorization of the teachings- So often some poetry or lyrics get into your head without your realizing it, what must memory be like to have no akusala thoughts and most importantly no 'self' to interfere with the purity of the memorization, which was why the hundreds of bhikkhus recited the exact same things during the councils. Now even the printed books show how different people cling to their views of what the right teachings should be, some even completely ignoring the Tipitaka. Many teachers in Thailand will tell you that too much study of the Tipitaka is not good for 'practice,' as if you could practice correctly without knowing what the correct practice is, according to the Buddha who discovered it. These new teachers in my opinion should start their own religion and not claim to be 'Buddhists', as many sects that ensue have done. It would be much less akusala than insisting that what the Buddha taught is not in the Tipitaka but what they are teaching themselves. But then the akusala vipaka will also be entirely theirs. Amara 3673 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > > Received something from an off-list dhamma-friend > on > > this subject. This OLDF says that later in the > Path > > of Distinction (at page 362) there is a note > > explaining your earlier quote in this way: > "therefore > > it is void of any other essence other than itself; > > > the meaning is that itself is void of another > > essence..". This may put a different light on > things. > > You may like to check it out. > > > ================================== > I had said that I would look over the note > and get back to you on > this. Indeed, as one goes into the note a bit, one > *does* find this. One > actually finds all sorts of alternative > interpretations, going in various > directions. But what is presented first in the note > is what I had mentioned > before. To quote myself: > << In the note after this treatise which > refers to what I just quoted, > it glosses 'sabhaava' (individual essence) as > meaning "arising of itself" or > "own essence" or "own arising". The note goes on to > say: 'Because of > existence in dependence on conditions > (paccayaayattavuttittaa) there is in it > no essence by itself or essence of its own, thus it > is 'void of individual > essence'. What is meant is that it is void of > essence by itself or of its own > essence ... >> Yes, there certainly seem to be some inconsistencies, both internal and versus other texts, on this point. But judging from Jim's post, I would not be hopeful of getting anything sorted out in a hurry! In the meantime, you may find an old post of Robert's in the archives of interest, since it touches on the Theravada vs. Mahayana approach to this general question. The post is #285 in the archives. You can get to it via the hotlinks on the group's 'Files' page. Go to - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files Open the 'Useful Links' file and look under the heading 'Theravada & Mahayana'. JOn 3674 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:34pm Subject: List Bulletin One or two announcements of things to ease our way along the path: 1. Index of useful posts from the archives We have begun indexing some of the old posts by topic. These are being kept on the ‘Files’ page of the list’s website. Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and open the file ‘LINKS TO USEFUL POSTS’. The topics are arranged in alphabetical order. These posts are being added to slowly, so please bear with us. Comments off-list are welcome. 2. Links to other websites On the ‘Bookmarks’ page of the list website, please find useful links to websites referred to on this list from time to time. Go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/links 3. Back-up archives at eScribe Beginning 14 February, all incoming messages are being backed-up to the eScribe archives website. In addition to the security of a duplicate set of posts, eScribe offers a more powerful search function, so you may find it convenient to do any searches there. Go to: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup and enter the following information: Username: dsgarchives Password: metta Our list on the eScribe site is not open to the general public. 3675 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:43pm Subject: Rob news Robert would like to announce the setting up of his new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org Congratulations, Rob! 3676 From: Amara Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:53pm Subject: Re: Rob news > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > Congratulations, Rob! > Congratulations, indeed! Welcome to the website world, it is great to have another website with the teachings of the Tipitaka first and foremost! With Alan's Zolag we could perhaps start a small ring, maybe soon Ivan could also join when his is finished!!! Anumodana, Amara 3677 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Jon, > > I guess what I was aiming at was that, in the > following references to the path factors, for > example, > doesn't it seem that each of these has a very direct > application to everyday life, rather than just to > unimaginably rare, infinitessimally brief moments on > the very brink of nibbana? Obviously at these > moments > one would not be practicing, for example, wrong > speech > or wrong livelihood, or wrong-anything-else for that > matter. > > So, is there simply no connection between the > eightfold path and everyday life? Am I (yet again) > just clinging to old misconceptions? Not at all. I'm sure there is a connection. But it's a question of just what that connection is. But all the same, the references to the path factors are references to the moments of path citta, even though they are relatively speaking (or literally speaking in the case of the fourth and last) on the brink of nibbana. Uniquely at those moments the 3 virati (abstention) cetasikas arise to perform their functions even though there is no imminent possibility of wrong-anything. Getting back to the connection, this bears further investigation. Would you like to suggest a connection for consideration? I will need to do some more reading before I would be ready to put forward anything myself. Jon > "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to > stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of > stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of > stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice > leading to the cessation of stress: This is called > right view. > > "And what is right resolve? Aspiring to > renunciation, > to freedom from ill will, to harmlessness: This is > called right resolve. > > "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, > from > divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle > chatter: This is called right speech. > > "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking > life, from stealing, & from sexual intercourse. This > is called right action. > > "And what is right livelihood? There is the case > where > a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned > dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with > right > livelihood: This is called right livelihood. > > "And what is right effort? There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses > persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have > not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of > evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for > the > sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have > not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & > culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This is called right effort. > > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case > where a monk remains focused on the body in & of > itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside > greed & distress with reference to the world. He > remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... > the > mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of > themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside greed & distress with reference to the world. > This is called right mindfulness. > > "And what is right concentration? There is the case > where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, > withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- > enters > & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure > born > from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & > evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & > evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: > rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of > awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- > internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he > remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically > sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the > third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, > 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable > abiding.' > With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with > the > earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he > enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of > equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. > This is called right concentration. > > "This is called the noble truth of the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress. > > Digha Nikaya 22 > Maha-Satipatthana Sutta > The Great Frames of Reference 3678 From: <> Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:01pm Subject: Re: Rob news --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > Congratulations, Rob! Dear Robert, I just looked at your website. Excellent! Very elegant! Congratulations, Robert! Alex 3679 From: Joyce Short Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 11:41pm Subject: >> While chewing a mouthful of food, if you think that > it tastes good and you >> have intense delight, satisfaction and craving for > that good taste, then at >> that moment, consciousness is established and fully > blossoms. CITTA: 'Mind', 'consciousness', state of consciousness, is a synonym of mano (q.v.) and vinnana...divides all phenomena into consciousness (citta) and mental concomittants (cetaska) (mental events) And in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness (Satipatthana) we have the 'Contemplation of Consciousness'. As long as I use words to discuss any topic, this is the manifestation of consciousness in operation (with varying degrees of clinging present). We have ultimate reality (paramatthato) and conventional reality (sammuti) Conventional realities are the referents of ordinary conceptual thought (pannatti) and conventional modes of expression (vohara) All those things which stablize the "world" and seem to persist as objects when not investigated. IE "body" is a conventional reality - it doesn't exist as such when examined - I am not the liver, I am not the blood and so on. There is impermance here, no-self and suffering if consciousness persists in the habit of identifying with this, like all other objects. Thus one has "my" body" that lives in the "world" with other separate entities called "bodies" like so many motor cars running about. All things are products of mental constructions, rather like this post. Teachers use words and concepts to point the way only. I posted the words of Ven. Buddhadassa because he had very practical ways of teaching. Ultimate realities we are told, are things which exist by reason of their own intrinsic nature. (sabhava) These are the dhammas; the final, irreducible components of existence, the ultimate realities which result from a correctly peformed analysis of experience. Such entities admit to no further reduction but are themselves the final terms of analysis, the true constituents of manifold experience - hence (paramattha) ultimate realities. So - consciousness, mind, citta, is taken up for investigation because consciousness is the principle element in experience, that which constitutes the knowing or awareness of any object. - Citta, to cognize or to know. The activity or process of knowing an object. It is not a self that knows an object, performs the act of cognition but citta or consciousness and they are divided into catagoried just to investigate further - eye consciousness, ear and so forth. This cognition(s) (of consciousness es) is/are impermanent and marked by rise and fall. And within the elaborations of the catagories of consciousness, all experience is impermanent, no-self there and suffering if mind has not investiated fully and thus still maintains the delusional habit of clinging and identifying a subject which sees and an object that is seen as "I" and "mine." One can look into the simplest act of cognition to see this without going through the rarified fabrications of consciousness, supramundane etc. etc. Is ignorance to the true state of things present, where there is the habit of wrong identifying of self/subject with object in any cognition or is wisdom present? So - it comes back to Dependent Origination -since it is not possible to experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition. It is useful to study in the simplest way possible the mechanism of how the whole picture works. This is only what Buddhadassa Bhikkhu was trying to do as I quoted in my previous post. I am an ordinary lay practitioner and my study of Abdhidhamma has consisted of sitting with a Sayadaw and having him assist me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus investigate through practice. Ie. do you mean - such and such when you say "bhavana" and so forth. As well as to practice correctly. I have never had a Theravada teacher tell me that it was necessary to use Pali in practice, which are only concepts anyway, the finger pointing. It is not necessary to accumulate a lot of knowledge in order to correctly understand the Path. And sometimes can get in the way as could be more ego clinging. Here I refer to my own experience only. I can only use concepts when writing or reading about something. We use them in order to communicate. Investigation, practice or whatever you wish to call it will lead beyond. Someone can use concepts to teach me to ride a bike, I might be able to tell someone in words about the experience of riding on the wind might be like but can never tell the whole picture. So - when I merely talk about Paticcasamuppada, this is philosophy in its worse sense. It isn't necessary and doesn't have a lot of value in itself. True Dependent Origination is not allowing suffering to rise by establishing awareness at the sense doors when there is sense contact. This is done by bringing the faculties of mental development (faith, energy, mindfulness, concemntration and wisdom) to bear on the six sense doors so that the tiants (asava) do not arise. This kind of Paticcasamuppada is called the Right Way (samma-patipada) I find that facility grows with practice and continual investigation. The purpose of the Buddha in teaching P. was to show to suffering mankind, how, depending on Ignorance and Delusion, this present existence and suffering has come about and how, through extinction of ignorance, and of the craving and the clinging conditioned thereby, no more rebirth will follow, and thus the standstill of the process of existence will have been realize and therewith the extinction of all suffering. While I don't find the use of the technical terms all that practical Im happy to refer to the Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Ven. Nyanatiloka. What is worse, their use may intimidate a beginner and they then might then turn away from further study. I would find it more helpful if those skilled in the use of these terms (and I do respect ?he cmoittment of study) would explain their direct experience of them. Grasping and attachment to anything, including all concepts will give rise to becoming and birth -the birth of the 'self' idea, "I" or "mine", which will taste the fruit of suffering in the form of problems which arise from the birth of this "I". Really , there is just selflessness in all mental events, but "karma" if there is any "I" connecting to any mental event, whatever it is called or however it is defined. That just seems to be the way it is. The inherent nature of all of what we might call "mental events" and here "body" is included - is emptiness. Sunna (adj) sunnata (noun) Voidness, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena (sunnama attena va attanyena va: S.XXXV, 85) There is knowing - citta - eye..mind, visual objects...mind objects, visual consciousness...mind consciousness, corporeality...consciousness etc, arising interdendently, are void of self and anything belonging to a self, void of anything lasting etc. But it has to be seen. And voidness, emptiness, the Whole totality must thus be beyond all efforts to catagorize or use concepts about. And then, what is this Voidness like in our experience of it? As much as we can put into words. Here the poets do better. How does one see this? How does one use the concepts to go beyond concepts, use mind to go beyond mind? Tricky....I know nothing at all, and when I "think" I do, Ive missed the point. Metta, Joyce > > This is not consciousness (vinnana or citta as > discussed above by the Buddha). Consciousness (citta) > arises at every moment regardless of any lobha. This > was true for the Buddha, the arahats and is true for > those with no interest in the Buddha's teachings. > >>This means >> that before you can fully chew and swallow your > food, there are many >> opportunities for consciousness to arise: "O! This > is good! Yummy! I gotta >> have more! Umm, good." And each time you react that > way, consciousness >> arises, > > I think you're confusing consciousness (citta) with > concepts (pannatti) > >>it conditions the arising of mentality and > materiality. >> Mentality/materiality arises and passes away many > times also, in response to >> the condition of consciousness, all in the space of > chewing a mouthful of >> rice. > > Sorry, but this is very confusing. Citta is a nama > already. > >>So it is that the Buddha said that wherever > consciousness arises (at >> all the sense doors) in this example, chewing a > mouthful of food, there it >> is established and blossoms." >> >> This is from "Paticcasamuppada - Practical Dependent > Origination" from the >> teachings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu. Emphasis on the > word "practical" so that >> we can really understand it simply and apply. > > Actually it's another nama, panna (wisdom) that learns > to understand realities, but it doesn't apply > anything. Misunderstanding of nama (including citta) > and rupa is what gives the misapprehension that a > self really canunderstand and apply. > >>He gives simple examples of >> the process and where difficulty arises if anyone is > interested. "Smelling >> a smell" is the arising of consciousness. Whether or > not "I" habit attached >> says whether of not suffering will then arise. > > The inherent nature of all namas and rupas is that of > unsatisfactoriness or suffereing (dukkha) already. > Why? Because all namas and rupas are impermanent. This > is regardless of whether there is any (wrong) idea of > self or not or whatever the habits are. (Sabbe > sankhara dukkha...etc) > >>Through attachment this "I" >> or consciousness is born and then with the > disppearance of what occured, >> this "I" dies, until it may arise with consciousness > again - birth and death >> of the "world" in each moment. > > Joyce, I would say that as a result of wrong view > (micha ditthi) and ignorance (moha) there is a wrong > view of self. I agree that there is birth and death of > the 'world' at each moment, but no 'I' whatever > ignorance and wrong view take to be the case. No self > in the citta (consciousness). > > I highly recommend you (and anyone else) read > 'Abhidhamma in Daily life' by Nina Van Gorkom, which > Amara is in the process of putting on her website > (links on the dsg homepage). i can't stress enough how > helpful I find it to have a little understanding of > abhidhamma whilst reading the suttas. > > Best regards, > Sarah > 3680 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/27/01 4:32:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Yes, there certainly seem to be some inconsistencies, > both internal and versus other texts, on this point. > But judging from Jim's post, I would not be hopeful of > getting anything sorted out in a hurry! > > In the meantime, you may find an old post of Robert's > in the archives of interest, since it touches on the > Theravada vs. Mahayana approach to this general > question. The post is #285 in the archives. You can > get to it via the hotlinks on the group's 'Files' > page. Go to - > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files > Open the 'Useful Links' file and look under the > heading 'Theravada & Mahayana'. > > JOn > ================================ Thank you for the reference! I will certainly check it out. Wity metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3681 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 2/27/01 12:26:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > > Thank you for the reference! I will certainly check it out. > > Wity metta, > Howard > ============================== I have now read Robert's post (#285), and I think that it is wonderful. I do think that there is a strong atomistic strain to be found in Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that the Patthana plays in undermining it is excellent. Nyanaponika makes the same point. I truly think that there is a danger in taking dhammas to be self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may subvert the middle way between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, pushing things towards the substantialist pole. Of course, certain extreme formulations found in parts of Mahayana may tend to push things towards the opposite pole. The one English term that I find particularly troublesome is 'reality' (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far prefer the term 'actuality', in the sense of something actually experienced (directly) rather than merely inferred as the referent of a constructed concept/percept. I think that the choice of terms we use in translating Pali or any other language is a critical matter, because every term carries with it connotations that may direct the mind in a useful direction or a harmful one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3682 From: Joyce Short Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:54am Subject: Six worlds? Hi Sarah, > > Joyce, you started off talking about as 'taught by the > Buddha'....please would you refer us to some sources > as much of what you have written is contradictory to > what I have read in the Tipitaka. Interesting, how is it "contradictory"? Both from your own experience and any sources you might care to quote. >> >> In other words, the emptiness that is revealed by >> insight must be >> experienced with compassion. The insight itself must >> be conjoined with >> tranquillity, and therefore, the knowledge aspect >> must never be separated >> form the method aspect. This in meditation, the >> cognition of emptiness has >> the effect of compassion. Samatha meditation goes >> beyond jhanas and calming >> the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness. > > I look forward to reading your references to where the > Buddha speaks of this. OK - how about - it is said in the Arya-Ratnacuda Sutra: Ref: The Foundation of Mindfulness concerned with Feeling. This is where Ven. Nyanaponika is finding the linkages between all schools of Buddhist thought. "When the Bodhisattva practices feeling-contemplation on feeings, he conceives a great comnpassion for those beings who cling to the happiness of feelings. He thoroughly learns to understand: "Happiness is where there is no feeling. He practices feeling-contemplation on feelings, for the sake (of helping) all beings to give up attachment to feelings. For (effecting) the cessation of feelings in beings, he dons his armour; but for himself he does not strive after the cessation of feelings. Any feeling felt by him is pervaded by deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to lust, and he himself gives up the propensity to lust. When experiencing an unpleasant feeling, he conceives deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to hatred, and he himself gives up the propensity to hatred. When experiencing a neutral feeling, he conceives deep compassion for beings whose character is strongly inclined to delusion, and he himself gives up the propensity to delusion. " and so on...and that is a Mahayana view as quoted by Ven. Nyanaponika - so I'll leave it to you to point out how this is incorrect. bearing in mind that most of the time, study and practice continues not in the realm of ultimate realities. The approach does help one to overcome our propensity to project and remain as separate entities.... > > Some people lack confidence in the value of the > Buddha's actual teachings or say they find these hard > to follow. For me, the more I consider and study these > teachings, the more understanding and confidence grow > in the power of panna (wisdom) to really know these > realities, the 6 worlds, What six "worlds" are these? as they are and the less > inclined I am to follow other teachers with other > interpretations. Where have you discovered any Buddhist teacher who doesn't teach from his own understanding and interpretation of Sutta both through his study and through his direct experience? I have encountered Theravadan sages who quote from zen and so on - anything will do to get the point across. It is a bit of an obstacle to indentify ones 'self' with any tradition or institution, no? or I quote from Goldstein, "The Experience of Insight" - "The Buddha did not teach Buddhism. He taught the Dharma, the law. He did not teach a set of beliefs or dogmas, or systems that have arbitrarily to be excepted. Through his own experience of enlightenment, he pointed the way for each of us to experience the truth within ourselves." Which perhaps refers to what the Buddha called, "ekayano maggo" the only way, or, the sole way - the way of Mindfulness. And here one goes beyond the words of any Sutta and teachers and "sees for oneself", beyond traditions, texts, teachers, dogma, concepts and so on. As mind precedes all things, "thus it is our own mind that should be established in all the Roots of Good; it is our own mind that should be soaked with any rain of truth; it is in our own mind that should be purified from all obstructive qualities; it is our own mind that should be made vigorous with energy." (Gandavyuha Sutta) So, while Im quoting from Ven. Nyanaponika Thera (The Heart of Buddhist Meditation) he himself, in his writings, is not adverse to finding similar expressions of Buddhist thought and view in the writings of all other cultures and "schools" -Mahayana, Vajrayana etc. The essence and instructions are the same and if one studies and investigates one cannot be led astray. > > I'm sniffling away here and need to get some more rest > now! May you be well, happy and peaceful! Joyce > > metta also, > > Sarah 3683 From: Date: Tue Feb 27, 2001 10:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Rgd mail#3679, word Hi Joyce, You have recently written couple of interesting mails. I would like to clarify sth and also share some of my opinion as well. Your mail is kind of long, and a little hard for me to follow. I read it from the computer and then printed it out on paper to read it again. You brought up a lot of points, opinion as well as some controversies. Let me try to bring up some of the points by cutting and pasting, ok. You mentioned the word, "word" or <<'expression (vohara)'>> in your 2nd paragraph and then later in the 5th paragraph, <>, << having him assist me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus investigate through practice.>> I just tried to understand what you were trying to say. Can we really studying sth without using word or language? Communication always at least needs two parties. I use word even I thinking to myself or communicating with myself. As I mentioned in my earlier mails, I use analogy of the map and the destination or the boat and the other side of the bank. I will probably get lost without the map or I cannot cross the great samasara river without a boat. To me language is like a map or a boat as well. You are right that ,<<-since it is not possible to experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition.>>, yeap, we experience reality or even wisdom by "sati" not by word or thinking. But sati and wisdom are also sankhara-dhamma. They need paccaya to arise or to cease, you may say it in a term of "Dependent Origination", if you prefer, reality does not change by how we call or explain them. To me the word, the term or I can say that Tipitaka is very important to help me stay on the right track. I know that I need help, more studying and need to associate with the wise or Kalayanamitra to understand Dhamma better. I need the basic of communication, language-word, as a paccaya for gradual understanding. <> For myself, I have no particular mean of "practice". And I don't know how much knowledge we necessary need to understand the path but I know that right knowledge or samma-dhiti is the key. And if it's a right knowledge, it will not lead you the ego clinging way. As I said, I just would like to clarify and share some of my opinion. Hope that this letter will help me understand your view better. There are more points in your mail not clearly comprehensible to me. Well, hope we will learn and help each other more by being kalayanamitra. I have to go. Num 3684 From: Amara Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:08am Subject: Re: > So - it comes back to Dependent Origination -since it is not possible to > experience wisdom by the investigation of words and concepts separate from > the experience of interdependence within the flow of cognition. It is > useful to study in the simplest way possible the mechanism of how the whole > picture works. This is only what Buddhadassa Bhikkhu was trying to do as I > quoted in my previous post. I am an ordinary lay practitioner and my study > of Abdhidhamma has consisted of sitting with a Sayadaw and having him assist > me to put complex concepts into simple English language were I could then > fully understand the meaning of the most essential terms and thus > investigate through practice. Ie. do you mean - such and such when you say > "bhavana" and so forth. As well as to practice correctly. I have never had > a Theravada teacher tell me that it was necessary to use Pali in practice, > which are only concepts anyway, the finger pointing. It is not necessary to > accumulate a lot of knowledge in order to correctly understand the Path. > And sometimes can get in the way as could be more ego clinging. Here I refer > to my own experience only. Dear friends, Others don't even need English, or to sit with some Sayadaw, once they understand what right understanding is and how it can be developed, even thought is concept then, only vitakka cetasika doing its duty. Languages, concepts, theorizing is never present when there is study of the present moment. At this moment you are reading this message on a computer screen, there are visible objects, seeing, hardness/ body sense, nama and rupa arising and falling away, realities to be studied, the knowledge of which could, when developed to the ultimate degree and strength, bring the experience of the real characteristics of things, which could end ignorance level by level, attenuating and finally eradicating all inherent bad tendencies. But to have the right knowledge of what right understanding is or how it can be developed, I prefer studying the Buddha's words in the Tipitaka, preferably a correctly translated one, but that's just me. > I can only use concepts when writing or reading about something. We use them > in order to communicate. Investigation, practice or whatever you wish to > call it will lead beyond. Someone can use concepts to teach me to ride a > bike, I might be able to tell someone in words about the experience of > riding on the wind might be like but can never tell the whole picture. > > So - when I merely talk about Paticcasamuppada, this is philosophy in its > worse sense. It isn't necessary and doesn't have a lot of value in itself. > True Dependent Origination is not allowing suffering to rise by establishing > awareness at the sense doors when there is sense contact. This is done by > bringing the faculties of mental development (faith, energy, mindfulness, > concemntration and wisdom) to bear on the six sense doors so that the tiants > (asava) do not arise. This kind of Paticcasamuppada is called the Right Way > (samma-patipada) I find that facility grows with practice and continual > investigation. Sitting here in front of the computer, we are told that different realities arise and fall away at all times at different sense doors, but do we see how different the characteristics of visible objects really are from sounds? That they arise and fall away through differend senses and the mind experiences all objects in sequence? Thoughts arise at all times and we think we are so wise to understand all the theories but do we really experience their different characteristics at the moment the intelligences arise to think or to experience the different object, right at this moment? Can we really choose to know or to ignore them when there are conditions for these to happen, even in alternation sometimes? This is why there are three levels to the study, the theoretical understanding, where at least the basics should be clearly understood and for people with the right accumulations, the more theories the better, others will never get to understand even the most basic ones; the 'practice' of studying the immediate moment and realities that so fleetingly present themselves, and the realization of the knowledge when right understanding of things as they really are are accumulated the the right degree. But to practice without knowing what it is all about could be very enjoyable, I suppose, but right understanding of things as they really are could never be developed, and happy moha will lead the self on and on- Because moha is exactly what it is, ignorance of the truth as it really is (pardon my Pali!), mostly long trains of thought without realizing that it is only thought, not knowledge of the present moment of paramatthadhamma. Thought is in fact the intelligence/consciousness (citta) with the thinking mental factor (vitakka cetasika) doing its duty of having concepts/conventional terms (pannatti) as object/thing experienced (arammana). Just some mental proliferation (papanca), Amara > The purpose of the Buddha in teaching P. was to show to suffering mankind, > how, depending on Ignorance and Delusion, this present existence and > suffering has come about and how, through extinction of ignorance, and of > the craving and the clinging conditioned thereby, no more rebirth will > follow, and thus the standstill of the process of existence will have been > realize and therewith the extinction of all suffering. > > While I don't find the use of the technical terms all that practical Im > happy to refer to the Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines by Ven. > Nyanatiloka. What is worse, their use may intimidate a beginner and they > then might then turn away from further study. I would find it more helpful > if those skilled in the use of these terms (and I do respect the cmoittment > of study) would explain their direct experience of them. Grasping and > attachment to anything, including all concepts will give rise to becoming > and birth -the birth of the 'self' idea, "I" or "mine", which will taste > the fruit of suffering in the form of problems which arise from the birth of > this "I". Really , there is just selflessness in all mental events, but > "karma" if there is any "I" connecting to any mental event, whatever it is > called or however it is defined. That just seems to be the way it is. > > The inherent nature of all of what we might call "mental events" and here > "body" is included - is emptiness. > > Sunna (adj) sunnata (noun) Voidness, the unsubstantiality of all phenomena > (sunnama attena va attanyena va: S.XXXV, 85) There is knowing - citta - > eye..mind, visual objects...mind objects, visual consciousness...mind > consciousness, corporeality...consciousness etc, arising interdendently, are > void of self and anything belonging to a self, void of anything lasting etc. > But it has to be seen. And voidness, emptiness, the Whole totality must thus > be beyond all efforts to catagorize or use concepts about. And then, what is > this Voidness like in our experience of it? As much as we can put into > words. Here the poets do better. > > How does one see this? How does one use the concepts to go beyond concepts, > use mind to go beyond mind? Tricky....I know nothing at all, and when I > "think" I do, Ive missed the point. > > Metta, > > Joyce 3685 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, I have been reading your posts with great interest. I'm impressed by your wise consideration and sincerity in efforts to understand the dhamma. --- wrote: > I do think that there is a strong > atomistic strain to be found in > Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that > the Patthana plays in > undermining it is excellent. Perhaps we could say that this 'atomistic strain' is not so much in Theravada but in the wrong understanding of it. When we study the details about conditions in the Pattana and the rest of the Abhidhamma and more importantly, develop understanding based on this theoretical understanding, then there is no doubt or confusion about what essence or reality or concept is. Nyanaponika makes the > same point. > I truly think that there is a danger in > taking dhammas to be > self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may > subvert the middle way > between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, > pushing things towards the > substantialist pole. I don't see the middle way as being between these 2 views. Questions about nihilism and eternalism usually fall into that 4th category of questions, the unanswered ones, as in the sutta recently posted. The reason is that these are wrong views and so the right view of the middle way cannot fall between wrong views. If you have a rotten apple and a rotten pear, a ripe peach does not lie in the middle. > The one English term that I find particularly > troublesome is 'reality' > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > prefer the term > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > experienced (directly) rather > than merely inferred as the referent of a > constructed concept/percept. I > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > Pali or any other > language is a critical matter, because every term > carries with it > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > direction or a harmful one. Yes, the Abhidhhama and Pali terms are very precise and this is why we tend to use them as the translations can be misleading. Having said this, it really depends on the understanding. Someone can know all the Pali terms and still misunderstand and take realities for self. So thinking now is real or actual..it can be known for a moment. We don't need to give it any name and when understanding knows its characteristic, there is no name. But what is thought about, the concepts can never be known because they are just concepts, they are not real and have no nature that can be known except by thinking. The citta and cetasikas (consciousness & mental factors) that think at this moment arise by conditions, are not self, but are different by conditions from the ones arising at the next moment. You mentioned in another post that: "concepts themselves, and not their inferred referents, are mental objects which surely *should* be able to be observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap in wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct seeing accompanied by wisdom." I'd like to just stress that when it seems that concepts are observed directly, that this is just thinking. They are not directly known but most the time we are lost in the world of concepts and they seem to be real. This is the world of moha (ignorance) which covers up the truth. When awareness is aware of thinking, it is clear that thinking is real but that the concepts do not exist. In other words, it is only with the development of sati and panna that the distinction is made clearly. When the abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga refer to the 'sabhava' of realities (or actualities if you prefer) which can be known, in no sense does this suggest any thing or being or self that lasts. Does this (ie, no direct understanding of concepts) suggest a gap in wisdom? I don't think so. The job of wisdom (paramatha sacca or panna) is to clear away the clouds and show the truth. If we want it to show the non-existent pannatti (concepts) we could give it another name, say conventional wisdom (sammuti sacca) and back we are at the start! This is the world we're already in without the Buddha's help. Understanding, even in theory, the clear distinction between concepts and realities is not easy. Developing direct understanding at this moment when realities are appearing is not easy either, simply because there is no self to direct or practise awareness and wrong views and ignorance blind us to the realities/actualities. I may just be repeating comments that others have put more succinctly and precisely. In this case, just ignore! By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not compulsory;-)) regards, Sarah 3686 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 1:45pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Dear Mike & Jon, May I add a few comments on the eightfold path? Just to summarise (according to my understanding). 1. The eight factors of the eightfold path are cetasikas (mental factors) which arise with kusala citta (wholesome consciousness) and 'know' the nama or rupa (mental or physical phenomena) at that time. 2. Knowing and being aware of the nama and rupa, the eightfold path is developed. 3. It is still lokiya (mundane) when the cetasikas do not arise with the lokuttara citta (which experiences nibbana) 4. At the moment of lokuttara citta, the eight cetasikas arise and nibbana is experienced. 5. Any time right understanding (accompanied by rt awareness, rt effort, rt thought, rt concentration) knows a nama or rupa which appears, the eightfold path is being developed. 6. Only when the lokuttara citta arises do all eight factors arise together. When we read about the experience of the eight factored path at the moment of enlightenment, it amy seem very remote. We have to be very patient (remember the Adze-handle sutta) and also remember that samma ditthi (right understanding) is the key, like 'dawn is the forerunner'. So the understanding develops slowly and naturally and the mundane eightfold path is developed. Is this sufficient link? Sarah 3687 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 4:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Six worlds? Joyce, I'm glad to see that you're interested to explore and discuss further. We're nearly all busy laypeople here, juggling different reponsibilities and interests. There's no need to use Pali terms, but as others have commented, the English translations of key words such as sati, nama or rupa can be very unhelpful which is why people tend to refer to the Pali. I'm actually in two minds as to whether to point out what I see as the contradictions, because I know you're writing in good faith, trying to help others and I'm not sure whether you really wish to have these comments. I'll start and then consider whether to post perhaps! Can we agree that the most authentic sources for what the Buddha actually taught are the Tipitaka and early commentaries? If we find later teachings or other teachings altogether useful, that's fine, but if they are in contradiction with the Tipitaka then we should be careful about saying 'as taught by the Buddha'. Pls ask if you need a specific Tipitaka reference for any point I make below that you disagree with. (I'm mostly interested in discussing your comments rather than those of your teachers but sometimes you don't make it clear when you are quoting a source or not.) --- Joyce Short wrote: > >> > Interesting, how is it "contradictory"? Both from > your own experience and > any sources you might care to quote. 1. You say 'one pepares mind so that insight is possible'. No self to prepare anything. 2. You talk about the 'Buddha-nature, the nature of all things'. This is clearly a later view, no Buddha nature in the Tipitaka. 3. You mention insignt 'must be founded ...of the nature of great compassion..' 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion. 4. You say 'samatha meditation goes beyond jhanas and calming the mind, it is the expression of loving-kindness'. Joyce, jhanas are the final goal of developing samatha bhavana. There are 40 possible objects, ONE of which is loving-kindness. 5. You say in another post 'Yet, in practice there is seamless awareness' This suggests some continuous awareness. Sati is not continuous or seamless. 6. You discuss 'intrinsic awareness of our True nature' If there are the right conditions, awareness arises for a moment of one reality...what is true nature? one moment seeing, another hearing, another moha and so on. 7. 'And essentially there isn't any difference between nama and rupa, those are just categories to help us sort out things in the beginning'. What is the True nature if it isn't different namas and rupas now? Unless there is very clear understanding of the difference between these, there cannot be any understanding of anatta. This is so in the beginning, middle and end. 8. 'What is arising is wisdom and compassion'. These are not universal cetasikas(mental factors) and do not always arise with every sobhana (wholesome) citta either. Why does this matter or why do we need to know these details? Otherwise in ignorance, there may be the idea that they arise all the time! 9. 'Our suffering has already prepared us for the path...' note the different meanings of dukkha. All realities are impermanent. As I said, this is the meaning when discussed as the 4 noble truths. Seeing is dukkha, visible object is dukkha etc...unsatisfactory because of being impermanent. I'll leave it here for now...these are some of the contradictions as I understand. Btw, the 6 worlds are the worlds of the 5sense doors and the mind door. These are the worlds to be known, seeing(a nama), visible object (a rupa) and so on. Please keep up your consideration and I hope I haven't written anything too directly to condition dosa (aversion)! Best wishes & metta, Sarah p.s. Jim is also living in Canada, somewhere in the wilds of Ontario. Maybe there are other Canadian lurkers too! Which city are you based in? 3688 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting Bruce I was impressed with some of your comments to Joyce below, and would just like to supplement a little. > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? > :-) who will say that > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit > down and "do" > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no > support for a formal > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we > can do to cultivate > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the > Dhamma, though i still > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do > this "considering"...and > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is > listened to and considered > also must be correct Dhamma.... Almost. It is the listening to and considering of the Dhamma *as it applies to the present moment* that is being encouraged. This is the foundation, if you like, for awareness to begin to arise at some (future) moment (not of our choosing) and directly experience a reality. Without that listening and considering, there would be no proper basis for awareness to arise. Our 'practice' would be informed by subtle wrong view, no matter how well we thought we understood the teachings. > this would mean that there are an awful lot of > people out there -- > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all > completely wrong from > the start, and who are wasting their time listening > to wrong Dhamma, > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake > of practicing very > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal > sitting insight practice > is possible.... Certainly there are many who try to 'practise' with only a very superficial knowledge of the teachings as found in the texts, or without any interest in the teachings at all. Such people are bound to be clocking up some serious micha-ditthi accumulations, as we too have no doubt done during many lifetimes in the past. Jon 3689 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Jim Many thanks for your detailed and carefully thought out comments. --- Jim Anderson wrote: > Jon, > I'm not all that familiar with the text. I have > studied parts of it, in > particular, the first three treatises: on knowledge, > view, and mindfulness > of breathing. I had never looked at the one on > voidness until Howard brought > it up. With the translation: "Born materiality is > void of individual > essence; ...", I would have interpreted it much the > same as Howard does. The > commentary on the term 'sabhaava' is quite long and > detailed. ~Naa.namoli > has translated all of it in his footnote no. 1 which > I find very difficult > to follow and the Pali is just as difficult. It > would require a considerable > amount of mental energy and time to try to sort it > all out. First, the comm. > gives a number of interpretations of the word > 'sabhaava' depending on the > syntactical relation of the 'sa' to 'bhaava' all of > which are acceptable in > the reading of the passage being questioned. Then it > takes up an > interpretation by some that is refuted "sako bhaavo" > which is translated as > "own essence" which the comm. goes all out to > refute. For one of the other > earlier interpretations, I found what I think may be > two significant > discrepancies in the PTS reading which differ from > the Burmese reading and > may have led to some confusion in the translation of > the comm. I am giving up on this particular text for the time being! > 'Sabhaava' is one of those terms that has never had > a clear meaning for me > and all its numerous translations have never made > much sense to me. And now > with all the interpretations of it given in this > comm., I'm even more > confused than ever. Sorry for being unable to help > out much on this one. > > My sense is that "individual essence" is probably > not the right translation. > The first interpretation given suggests to me: "void > of existence by itself > alone" (or, existence just by itself). Yes, a somewhat elusive concept. Yet by all accounts (Vis, Abh-Sangh) a very important one to have a basic grasp of, because of the importance of distinguishing realities from concepts. I'm not sure that we need to know much more about it than just that, unless we have a particular difficulty in accepting that distinction. Jon 3690 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Vipassana bhavana - practice of Num Hi! Thanks for the comments. I have also been appreciating your posts lately. Either you did some serious thinking while on your travels, or you have a naturally inquiring mind. Or both! Jon --- wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I really appreciate your response. I agree with you > and cannot add anything > more. > > Num > > 3691 From: bruce Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 10:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting hi jon thanks for your kind reading of my post -- you considered my words very considerately, and this i appreciate....i guess my original post was only half tongue-in-cheek then, and ends up providing evidence that i'm s l o w l y understanding, whether i want to or not? yikes! >;-|) bruce At 21:07 2001/02/28 +0800, you wrote: > Bruce > > I was impressed with some of your comments to Joyce > below, and would just like to supplement a little. > > > but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? > > :-) who will say that > > this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit > > down and "do" > > vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no > > support for a formal > > practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > > > apparently -- ie, according to the texts -- all we > > can do to cultivate > > insight is listen to the Dhamma and consider the > > Dhamma, though i still > > don't have the foggiest notion of how one is to do > > this "considering"...and > > it goes without saying that the Dhamma that is > > listened to and considered > > also must be correct Dhamma.... > > Almost. It is the listening to and considering of the > Dhamma *as it applies to the present moment* that is > being encouraged. This is the foundation, if you > like, for awareness to begin to arise at some (future) > moment (not of our choosing) and directly experience a > reality. Without that listening and considering, > there would be no proper basis for awareness to > arise. Our 'practice' would be informed by subtle > wrong view, no matter how well we thought we > understood the teachings. > > > this would mean that there are an awful lot of > > people out there -- > > ordained, anagarika and laity -- who have got it all > > completely wrong from > > the start, and who are wasting their time listening > > to wrong Dhamma, > > considering wrong Dhamma, and making the big mistake > > of practicing very > > wrong Dhamma by thinking that any kind of formal > > sitting insight practice > > is possible.... > > Certainly there are many who try to 'practise' with > only a very superficial knowledge of the teachings as > found in the texts, or without any interest in the > teachings at all. Such people are bound to be > clocking up some serious micha-ditthi accumulations, > as we too have no doubt done during many lifetimes in > the past. > > Jon > 3692 From: Date: Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:26pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Sarah - I just spent 30 minutes replying to this post of yours, and then came the Windows "blue screen of death", wiping out my reply!! I wil try again. > Dear Howard, > > I have been reading your posts with great interest. > I'm impressed by your wise consideration and sincerity > in efforts to understand the dhamma. > > --- wrote: > > I do think that there is a strong > > atomistic strain to be found in > > Theravada, and Robert's pointing out the role that > > the Patthana plays in > > undermining it is excellent. > > Perhaps we could say that this 'atomistic strain' is > not so much in Theravada but in the wrong > understanding of it. When we study the details about > conditions in the Pattana and the rest of the > Abhidhamma and more importantly, develop understanding > based on this theoretical understanding, then there is > no doubt or confusion about what essence or reality or > concept is. > > Nyanaponika makes the > > same point. > > I truly think that there is a danger in > > taking dhammas to be > > self-existent "realities", a danger in that it may > > subvert the middle way > > between nihilism and substantialism/eternalism, > > pushing things towards the > > substantialist pole. > > I don't see the middle way as being between these 2 > views. Questions about nihilism and eternalism usually > fall into that 4th category of questions, the > unanswered ones, as in the sutta recently posted. The > reason is that these are wrong views and so the right > view of the middle way cannot fall between wrong > views. If you have a rotten apple and a rotten pear, > a ripe peach does not lie in the middle. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I also do not see the "middle" as lying on an axis between the two extremes. It is not some sort of average. Mine was just a manner of speaking. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > troublesome is 'reality' > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > prefer the term > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > experienced (directly) rather > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > constructed concept/percept. I > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > Pali or any other > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > carries with it > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > direction or a harmful one. > > Yes, the Abhidhhama and Pali terms are very precise > and this is why we tend to use them as the > translations can be misleading. Having said this, it > really depends on the understanding. Someone can know > all the Pali terms and still misunderstand and take > realities for self. > > So thinking now is real or actual..it can be known for > a moment. We don't need to give it any name and when > understanding knows its characteristic, there is no > name. But what is thought about, the concepts can > never be known because they are just concepts, they > are not real and have no nature that can be known > except by thinking. The citta and cetasikas > (consciousness & mental factors) that think at this > moment arise by conditions, are not self, but are > different by conditions from the ones arising at the > next moment. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe we are just using language differently on this issue. I use 'concept' to refer to these very thoughts/ideas, whereas I believe youare using it for the imagined referents of these thoughts. The thoughts are actualities which are directly experienced, while their referents are meely inferred. ------------------------------------------------------------- > > You mentioned in another post that: "concepts > themselves, and not their inferred referents, are > mental objects which surely *should* be able to be > observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap in > wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a direct > seeing accompanied by wisdom." > > I'd like to just stress that when it seems that > concepts are observed directly, that this is just > thinking. They are not directly known but most the > time we are lost in the world of concepts and they > seem to be real. This is the world of moha (ignorance) > which covers up the truth. When awareness is aware of > thinking, it is clear that thinking is real but that > the concepts do not exist. In other words, it is only > with the development of sati and panna that the > distinction is made clearly. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think we ahve the same understanding on this issue, but different terminology. --------------------------------------------------------- > > When the abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga refer to the > 'sabhava' of realities (or actualities if you prefer) > which can be known, in no sense does this suggest any > thing or being or self that lasts. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: My understnding here seems to go a bit further. I not only understand the paramatthadhammas (ultimate actualities, directly experienced) as being anicca (impermanent) and anatta (impersonal), but also as asabhava (without own-being), not in the sense that they are inobservable or indistinguishable, but in that they are dependently arisen, aising and being maintained only in dependence on other similarly dependently arisen phenomena, and thus not being self-existent "things"; in fact, being nothing *in-and-of-themselves*. I emphasize his "in-and-of-themselves" to show that I'm trting to express the middle way rather thana nihilist position. -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does this (ie, no direct understanding of concepts) > suggest a gap in wisdom? I don't think so. The job of > wisdom (paramatha sacca or panna) is to clear away the > clouds and show the truth. If we want it to show the > non-existent pannatti (concepts) we could give it > another name, say conventional wisdom (sammuti sacca) > and back we are at the start! This is the world we're > already in without the Buddha's help. > > Understanding, even in theory, the clear distinction > between concepts and realities is not easy. Developing > direct understanding at this moment when realities are > appearing is not easy either, simply because there is > no self to direct or practise awareness and wrong > views and ignorance blind us to the > realities/actualities. > > I may just be repeating comments that others have put > more succinctly and precisely. In this case, just > ignore! > > By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you > come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? > I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not > compulsory;-)) > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Let me abswer this in a separate post,lest i lose tis post to the blue screen of death! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > regards, > Sarah > ================================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3693 From: m. nease Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 4:45am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Sarah and Howard, --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Dear Howard, > > I have been reading your posts with great interest. > I'm impressed by your wise consideration and > sincerity > in efforts to understand the dhamma. Second that. > --- wrote: > You mentioned in another post that: "concepts > themselves, and not their inferred referents, are > mental objects which surely *should* be able to be > observed directly with wisdom, else there is a gap > in > wisdom! In fact, seeing the indirectness in concepts > and seeing their emptiness seems to me to be a > direct > seeing accompanied by wisdom." Howard, I wonder about this. For ages I took it for granted that perceiving the three characteristics in concepts amounted to dhammanupassanaa, and that it should therefore yield insight--of the defilement-destroying kind. I haven't found this to be the case, though I do think it's led to a somewhat clearer mundane understanding of things. > I'd like to just stress that when it seems that > concepts are observed directly, that this is just > thinking. > They are not directly known but most the > time we are lost in the world of concepts and they > seem to be real. This is the world of moha > (ignorance) > which covers up the truth. I think Sarah's right about this and that this thinking, conceptual world really is the world of ignorance. Of course, I'm not sure! I think possibly the idea of 'real' vs. 'unreal' is somewhat misleading. What distinguishes concepts from other dhammas, if I understand this correctly, is that effort to obtain results (of the defilement-destroying kind) by attention to concepts, as opposed to the other dhammas, is like 'twisting the horn of a newly-calved cow' to get milk--to borrow a simile from the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 126 Bhumija Sutta To Bhumija http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn126.html (By the way, this referred to the efforts of someone with wrong view...wrong concentration, as opposed to someone with right view...right concentration. So it brings us back to the Path Factors and what they mean). How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the Eightfold Path are really something very different from conventional, conceptual understanding, and dependent on impossible-to-change results of past kamma. Well, just my two cents' worth... mike 3694 From: cybele chiodi Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 5:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting; to Bruce Dear Bruce > >> >but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say that >this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" >vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a formal >practice called "vipassana" in the texts... Sincerely I confide much more in what I realize with the knowledge of my own experience Bruce and apart that Vipassana is very much explained in detail on the text of Satipathana Sutta, I never met one single evolved teacher that would not ardently recommends me formal meditation as a wholesome and most beneficial means fit for the purpose of developing mindfulness whether in east as in west. Not the only one but the most important and never to be neglected. But the support of my faith is my own experience much more than relying on the texts and honestly if you really believe that it's suitable for you practice formal meditation, why you keep offering yourself to the brain eaters? Go and sit down on your cushion and let him clarify you instead of paying attention to a lot of mental proliferation, papanca pardon, on the subject. That's my viewpoint; but if you want a real, deep experience in Burma don't go to Mahasi center to entrap your mind in more rigidity. once you asked me about Burma and this is the best suggestion I have to give you. And by now I am going to sit down myself dear dhamma brother - till next time! Love and respect Cybele 3695 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 0:54am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like to clarify what exactly is compassion. Usually metta is translated to compassion. <<<3. You mention insignt 'must be founded ...of the nature of great compassion..' 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion.>>> I heard someone said that "Compassion only arises with beings as object" before. I also heard that metta is an adosa cetasika which is one of 19 sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. From dhammastudy.com, advance, summary of paramatthadhamma part V cetasika, <<1. Saddha-cetasika 2. Sati-cetasika 3. Hiri-cetasika 4. Ottappa-cetasika 5. Alobha-cetasika 6. Adosa-cetasika 7. Tatramajjhattata-cetasika 8. Kaya-passaddhi 9. Citta-passaddhi 10. Kaya-lahuta 11. Citta-lahuta 12. Kaya-muduta 13. Citta-muduta 14. Kaya-kammannata 15. Citta-kammannata 16. Kaya-pagunnata 17. Citta-pagunnata 18. Kayujukata 19. Cittujukata>> Also 2 appamanna-cetasika, <> This is also from the part V, << And in the development of brahmavihara-bhavana, namely metta-bhavana or adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- cetasika, mudita-bhavana or mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In the development of samatha-bhavana, which is brahmavihara, the mahakusala composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop or grow until it becomes a strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the samadhi close to be firmly transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi (firmly transfixed to the arammana.), which is the first level of jhana-citta.>> <> Pardon me for complicated terms. I am trying to study. So here are the questions, 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, correct? 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka vipaka citta, both kusula and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika co-arising with them, correct? 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born with adosa hetu patisanthi citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with metta, correct? 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing tennis or talking nonsense joke with my friends, there is no metta there, correct? I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate that lobhamula citta when arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun is akusula. Hey, it's a good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me that human plane is a kama-bhumi. I think this is it for this mail. Num 3696 From: <> Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 7:18am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas --- "m. nease" wrote: > How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to > be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. This is it! > How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every > moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise > we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). > How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after > day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly > every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, > however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the > Eightfold Path are really something very different > from conventional, conceptual understanding, and > dependent on impossible-to-change results of past > kamma. Yes, this is logical. > Well, just my two cents' worth... I like your sense. :-))) Thank you, Mike. Anumodana to your sharing, Alex 3697 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:43am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi K. Num, I felt compelled to respond to Sarah the same way you are doing, until I looked up how the word "Compassion" is used by NVG. In "Cetasikas", she used the word "Compassion" for Karuna, and as you know, only the pannatti beings can be the object of Karuna cetasika. Alobha can have either paramatha or pannatti as the object. However, I believe when it is referred to as Metta, then only Pannatti beings can be the object as well. Pardon me for not answering any of your other questions. Sarah surely will respond more succintly (and compassionately [or with metta, since you don't seem to be in pain right now... ;-) ] ). kom --- wrote: > Hi all, > > > I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like to clarify what > exactly > is compassion. Usually metta is translated to compassion. > 3698 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 9:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting; to Bruce Dear Cybelle, Although I don't consider myself strictly as a brain-eating tiger, I would like to add to the conversation a little. Here's an excerpt (not that long, I promise) from Canki Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn95.html): [begin quote] ... And so the Blessed One, encompassing Kapadika's awareness with his awareness, met his gaze. Kapadika thought, "Gotama the contemplative has turned to me. Suppose I ask him a question." So he said to the Blessed One, "Master Gotama, with regard to the ancient hymns of the brahmins -- passed down through oral transmission & included in their canon -- the brahmins have come to the definite conclusion that "Only this is true; anything else is worthless." What does Master Gotama have to say to this?" "Tell me, Bharadvaja, is there among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And has there been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "And among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns -- those ancient hymns, sung, repeated, & collected, which brahmins at present still sing, still chant, repeating what was said, repeating what was spoken -- i.e., Atthaka, Vamaka, Vamadeva, Vessamitta, Yamataggi, Angirasa, Bharadvaja, Vasettha, Kassapa & Bhagu: was there even one of these who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless?'" "No, Master Gotama." "So then, Bharadvaja, it seems that there isn't among the brahmins even one brahmin who says, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmins even one teacher or teacher's teacher back through seven generations who said, 'This I know; this I see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' And there hasn't been among the brahmin seers of the past, the creators of the hymns, the composers of the hymns ... even one who said, 'This we know; this we see; only this is true; anything else is worthless.' Suppose there were a row of blind men, each holding on to the one in front of him: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. In the same way, the statement of the brahmins turns out to be a row of blind men, as it were: the first one doesn't see, the middle one doesn't see, the last one doesn't see. So what do you think, Bharadvaja: this being the case, doesn't the conviction of the brahmins turn out to be groundless?" ... [end quote] Notice the section about blind men leading blind men? Do you know for a fact who is not blind [figuratively]? My belief and my lack of actual knowledge leads to only one person: the Buddha himself. By learning from the right sources (or hopefully the right sources), we are hoping not to be following the blind... kom --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Dear Bruce > > > > >> > >but there are brain-eating tigers (right cybelle? :-) who will say > that > >this is not vipassana, that one cannot choose to sit down and "do" > >vipassana in any formal manner, and that there is no support for a > formal > >practice called "vipassana" in the texts... > > > Sincerely I confide much more in what I realize with the knowledge of > my own > experience Bruce and apart that Vipassana is very much explained in > detail > on the text of Satipathana Sutta, I never met one single evolved > teacher > that would not ardently recommends me formal meditation > as a wholesome and most beneficial means fit for the purpose of > developing > mindfulness whether in east as in west. ... 3699 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 6:07am Subject: A Self-Introduction Hi, Sarah - > By the way, where are you based Howard and how do you > come to be so interested and well-read in the Dhamma? > I think you avoided giving any intro...;-(! (Not > compulsory;-)) > ============================ I'm not sure what you mean when you ask where I'm based. I live on Long Island, NY, USA. I'm a college prof, a mathematician in a computer science department. I am very interested in the Dhamma, having been a Buddhist for many years, but I'm not nearly as well-read as many of the subscribers to DhammaStudyGroup. I was born in Philadelphia. As a young child I informally meditated! In particular, I spent much time contemplating what I saw as a great mystery of the nature of personal identity. As a pre-teen, I took buses to downtown Philly, sometimes to a bookstore where I bought many books on "yoga philosophy" (my parents thought I was "nuts"! ;-)), and sometimes to the Theosophical Society reading room. As a young adult, I went through a brief atheist stage, and then later discovered advaita vedanta, which intrigued me. From that it was an easy (and worthwhile) step to Mahayana Buddhism, and then I found my "home" in Theravada (though I have never lost my respect and fondness for parts of Mahayana). I have a fairly good home library of primary and secondary sources, mainly Theravadin. I have attended several short Theravadin meditation retreats (with an upcoming 2-days-and-an-evening retreat this June). Several years ago I attended a 10-day Goenka retreat which was wonderful! It led to "progress" in several ways. My current practice, in addition to study, consists in daily sitting meditation (anapanasati), a quite imperfect attempt to maintain mindfulness during ordinary daily activities, and meeting, usually once a week, with a head monk at a thai wat about 45 minutes from my house. (He is a *lovely* man!) Well, I hope this adequately (yet not overly! ;-)) introduces myself. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3700 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:08am Subject: The Question of Time Hi, It is an interesting article. http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=36 Waiting for comments to share. 3701 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 1:01pm Subject: Re: The Question of Time > It is an interesting article. > > http://www.feedmag.com/templates/default.php3?a_id=36 > > Waiting for comments to share. Hi, Lee! Yes, interesting, though I don't know much about this subject, I'm afraid. Time is of course another concept derived from thoughts about the experiences through the six dvara and related memory, according to Buddhist teachings about pannatti. This would make the article come quite close to the truth, except that if it were true that, 'BARBOUR STARTS WITH THE NOTION that time is just a way of describing change. "If you try to measure time," he told me in a recent telephone interview, "you have to have something that moves. It is remarkable how many people haven't considered this, including even Einstein, who never thought seriously about what a clock is." (Artie will enjoy learning that he may have been a step ahead of Einstein on this one.) Without clock hands moving (or digital numbers flashing), without any motion, Barbour is convinced, there would be no time. Then he tries to prove -- more tentatively -- that there is no such thing as motion.' and that kamma and vipaka has nothing to do with a being's motion/static state or memory of different 'configurations', those who are born the rupabrahma without nama are in deep trouble, they would not move for at leat 500 maha kappa, nor experience anything since no nama would arise, not even through the mono dvara. Talk about being stuck in time!!! Thanks for sharing, Amara 3702 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Self-Introduction Hi Howard, Nice to know you. Very nice self-introduction. You have came a long way. Wish you on the path to your goal. Anumodhana in your deed. Num 3703 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 2:42pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Teng Kee, Jon, Amara, Jim, (Rob?), I'm trying to follow, but am having trouble! Teng Kee wrote: > > Dear Jon, > there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds > of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta > com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of > yogi. I've just looked without success in Soma Theras's satpatthana com. Pls could you or someone direct me. But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in > sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are > sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. o.k. makes sense, I don't have this com. but I'd think there could be many variations. > those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of > sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of > ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada > sutta com and sub com. I looked at the sutta only (Maj Nik) which of course doesn't help. Ariya one citta moment seems > to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for > sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they > are not very sure when they read patisambhida com > which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see > the book critism and replies by them). sorry, for which samadhi and which book & criticism is this? Is it on the web? The > dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two > sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya > citta in citta vithi series in different place > because they used the word niddharana sami vacana > for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi > sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for > sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a > easier way. well, i'm sure there's no choice in the matter...and i don't quite understand the distinction, but back to Jon's qu, why is it called sukkhavipassaka if there is any attainment of jhana beforehand? Could we not say that only the 2nd of the ones above is sukkhavipassaka and the 1st is the group (rarer) that use jhana as basis for enlightenment as discussed in Vis? Or am I completely misunderstanding? Sorry if so! Be glad for any clarification. In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > sutta about losing of true > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little for others as it's interesting AND short!: The counterfeit of the True Dhamma '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the training; they dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world' Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). In any case I'm not at all sure, Teng Kee, why this 5th cause would support your contention (as I understand it) that all arahats inc. sukkhavipassaka must have attained jhana 1st. > Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in > attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another > thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse > at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi > (regardless there attain as samathayanika or > sukkavipassaka). I understood this to mean w'out attainment of jhana. Does it specify somewhere that still can attain jhana but not iddhi (special powers)? > Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be > called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the > jhana just come out due to insight at the end of > that insight (before that citta vithi of > attainment). Can you give us a reference? I'm very out of my depth here, but I think it's an important area to discuss further. But monk can be having jhana but still > attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as > emerge from jhana). o.k. I'm sure many variations like this are (or were) possible! I'm interested to keep this discussion open but it's not at all easy! I hope i haven't caused unnecessary frustrations with ignorant comments! Regards, Sarah p.s. we appreciate your efforts to contribute in these areas, please just add what you can, when you can, Teng Kee. How did you come to be so well-read and such a pali scholar I wonder.... 3704 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, --- wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > I just spent 30 minutes replying to this post > of yours, and then came > the Windows "blue screen of death", wiping out my > reply!! I wil try again. I was going to accuse you of yet another excuse to avoid the intro net when out came your fascinating intro. Joking aside, thanks for this and sorry you had to repeat. I'm an expert in this area- frozen screens, frozen mouse, white fog, you name it....whenever you detect an 'edge' to my posts, this is usually the reason. (i.e. I'm trying to restrain myself from attacking the dinosaur mac) ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe we are just using language differently on this issue. I use 'concept' to refer to these very thoughts/ideas, whereas I believe youare using it for the imagined referents of these thoughts. The thoughts are actualities which are directly experienced, while their referents are meely inferred. -------------------------------------------------------By concepts, we're referring to all thoughts and ideas, those based on realities/actualities and those not based on them....See one of Jon's earlier posts in the files under this heading for the different kinds of concepts. There are also one or two good earlier posts by Rob on this subject which I'll add when I can locate them. The book 'Realities & Concepts' by k.Sujin and translated by Nina VG is v.helpful. It's online for viewing at http://www.geocities.com/ganges_sangha/ (See 'What's New') We'll add this as a link- hope I got it right here. The point is that thinking itself is real or actual, but what is thought about can only be experienced by thinking and cannot be known as I mentioned....I think Jon discussed how seeing now is real and can be the object of awareness. If we close our eyes (or keep them open is fine too) and think about seeing, it doesn't exist except as a story or concept. So it can only be known when it's real character appears... ----- > Howard: > My understnding here seems to go a bit > further. I not only understand > the paramatthadhammas (ultimate actualities, > directly experienced) as being > anicca (impermanent) and anatta (impersonal), but > also as asabhava (without > own-being), not in the sense that they are > inobservable or indistinguishable, > but in that they are dependently arisen, aising and > being maintained only in > dependence on other similarly dependently arisen > phenomena, and thus not > being self-existent "things"; I agree with all this. Whether the term 'sabhava' helps or not, it's the understanding of the realities, not the term, that's important. in fact, being nothing > *in-and-of-themselves*. > I emphasize his "in-and-of-themselves" to show that > I'm trting to express the > middle way rather thana nihilist position. now that use of middle way.... another time perhaps!Trying to keep this short. (Teng Kee's devoured most my brain for today!) Thanks Howard and thanks again for the intro....which I've printed out but not read yet.. Sarah 3705 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Num, ..and now i have almost no brain left for my students, so this'll be a very brief one before I close for a long w'end (my busiest work time). --- wrote: > Hi all, > > > I cut this from Sarah's mail to Joyce. I would like > to clarify what exactly > is compassion. Usually metta is translated to > compassion. Asd Amara put: compassion is the translation of karuna. This is a good example of why we need the Pali as well as the English...! Sorry for this. (the points made will be the same however) > > 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, > correct? correct > 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka > vipaka citta, both kusula > and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika > co-arising with them, > correct? correct > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > with adosa hetu patisanthi > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > metta, correct? not correct > 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it > arises with > somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing > tennis or talking nonsense > joke with my friends, there is no metta there, > correct? correct > > I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate > that lobhamula citta when > arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun > is akusula. Hey, it's a > good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me > that human plane is a > kama-bhumi. Yes both lobha(attachment) and many kinds of kusala (whoesome states) arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling). That's why we can't tell from the feeling whether it is kusala or akusala. Not just joking with friends or playing tennis, what about whenopening your eyes, lifting a glass of water, looking at a blank wall (to pinch a Rob favourite)?...Lobha immeditely.... We may think there is a lot of metta and karuna when we're with people too....but the attachment (near enemy of metta) and aversion (near enemy of karuna) 'cheat' us all the time...> Kom, i'm in a big rush, pls help correct any careless mistakes (or ignorant ones I make) and any other details if you like! happy posting all, Sarah p.s. Num, I saw a reall interesting BBC series called 'Brain..' (maybe Brain Story)told by a neurologist or some other specialist..you'd find it v.interesting. There was one man who'd had an accident and his sanna (memory of details) seemed to have stopped functioning. He'd see a visible object, let's say what we take for a landscape, but would have no idea what any of it meant and one could see how hard it was to get through the day as an intelligent being without a construct of concepts working properly..lots more. We can see all the different accumulations on this list...like Kom you really have an interest in the details and the kind of brain that can absorb them. For me it's S L O W L Y (thanks Bruce)...no rule at all. Btw, if there's any chance of you joining the trip to India w/ KSujin next Oct, you'd love it, esp. as you speak Thai. Amara, Jon and Kom from the list are going. You'd have to book superfast tho'. (write me off list if you want help) 3706 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > Asd Amara put: compassion is the translation of > karuna. This is a good example of why we need the Pali > as well as the English...! Sorry for this. (the points > made will be the same however) Dear Sarah, Poor Moderator, you must be really tired and need a little rest before facing the work-weekend! I didn't say the above (it was in a much more recent post,). I said some time ago that karuna was to help those in need of assistence, not just have compassion, either. (For more details, please check post no.3457) Have asked K. Supee to check the passages about the decline of Buddhism for you, by the way, will report, Loved your recent posts, have a nice rest, anumodana, Amara > > 1) Metta(adosa) is always with sobhana citta, > > correct? > > correct > > > 2) 10 davi-panca-vinnana-citta which are ahetuka > > vipaka citta, both kusula > > and akusula cannot have metta or appamanna-cetasika > > co-arising with them, > > correct? > > correct > > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? > > not correct > > > 4) The moment of lobhamula citta, even though it > > arises with > > somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun playing > > tennis or talking nonsense > > joke with my friends, there is no metta there, > > correct? > > correct > > > > I think my panna is not strong enough to appreciate > > that lobhamula citta when > > arises with somanassa-vedana, like when I have fun > > is akusula. Hey, it's a > > good feeling. Well, it comes and goes. It reminds me > > that human plane is a > > kama-bhumi. > > Yes both lobha(attachment) and many kinds of kusala > (whoesome states) arise with somanassa (pleasant > feeling). That's why we can't tell from the feeling > whether it is kusala or akusala. Not just joking with > friends or playing tennis, what about whenopening your > eyes, lifting a glass of water, looking at a blank > wall (to pinch a Rob favourite)?...Lobha > immeditely.... > > We may think there is a lot of metta and karuna when > we're with people too....but the attachment (near > enemy of metta) and aversion (near enemy of karuna) > 'cheat' us all the time...> > > Kom, i'm in a big rush, pls help correct any careless > mistakes (or ignorant ones I make) and any other > details if you like! > > happy posting all, > Sarah > > p.s. Num, I saw a reall interesting BBC series called > 'Brain..' (maybe Brain Story)told by a neurologist or > some other specialist..you'd find it v.interesting. > There was one man who'd had an accident and his sanna > (memory of details) seemed to have stopped > functioning. He'd see a visible object, let's say what > we take for a landscape, but would have no idea what > any of it meant and one could see how hard it was to > get through the day as an intelligent being without a > construct of concepts working properly..lots more. > > We can see all the different accumulations on this > list...like Kom you really have an interest in the > details and the kind of brain that can absorb them. > For me it's S L O W L Y (thanks Bruce)...no rule at > all. > Btw, if there's any chance of you joining the trip to > India w/ KSujin next Oct, you'd love it, esp. as you > speak Thai. Amara, Jon and Kom from the list are > going. You'd have to book superfast tho'. (write me > off list if you want help) > 3707 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 6:31pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Amara, sorry, I ment KOM said... S. yes, too much brain eating perhaps!!.... Cybele, Bruce is quite up to any brain-eaters....he's in his element.. hang in there yourself, you're doing fine too! with compassion for all demented, half-eaten brains and brain-eaters... the weary B-E 3708 From: teng kee ong Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:06pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:42:12 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Dear Teng Kee, Jon, Amara, Jim, (Rob?), > > I'm trying to follow, but am having trouble! > > Teng Kee wrote: > > > Dear Jon, > > there are two kinds of samathayanika and two kinds > > of sukkhavipassaka mentioned in satipatthana sutta > > com.It has to do with craving and ditthi type of > > yogi. > > I've just looked without success in Soma Theras's > satpatthana com. Pls could you or someone direct me. > > But the problem is you can be samatha yanika in > > sotapanna attainment or the rest three frutions are > > sukkhavipassaka as said in patisambhida com. > > o.k. makes sense, I don't have this com. but I'd think > there could be many variations. > > > those myanmar teachers came out with the idea of > > sukkhavipassaka without jhana but only one moment of > > ariya jhana was due to a reading in dhammadayada > > sutta com and sub com. > > I looked at the sutta only (Maj Nik) which of course > doesn't help. > > Ariya one citta moment seems > > to be the meaning of insight follow by samatha for > > sukkhaviapssaka(vipassanayanika).But they know they > > are not very sure when they read patisambhida com > > which mention upacara appana for that samadhi(see > > the book critism and replies by them). > > sorry, for which samadhi and which book & criticism is > this? Is it on the web? > > The > > dhammadayada sutta com.and subcom mean two > > sammasamadhi -jhana and that one moment of ariya > > citta in citta vithi series in different place > > because they used the word niddharana sami vacana > > for that ariya citta.Their most famous teacher ledi > > sayadaw thinked it is a harder method for > > sukkhavipassaka but mahasi sayadaw think it is a > > easier way. > > well, i'm sure there's no choice in the matter...and i > don't quite understand the distinction, but back to > Jon's qu, why is it called sukkhavipassaka if there is > any attainment of jhana beforehand? Could we not say > that only the 2nd of the ones above is sukkhavipassaka > and the 1st is the group (rarer) that use jhana as > basis for enlightenment as discussed in Vis? Or am I > completely misunderstanding? Sorry if so! Be glad for > any clarification. > > > In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > > sutta about losing of true > > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. > > This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little > for others as it's interesting AND short!: > > The counterfeit of the True Dhamma > '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at > once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, > five detrimental things that lead to the decay and > disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? > Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay > followers, and the female lay followers dwell without > reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they > dwell without reverence and deference towards the > Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference > towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and > deference towards the training; they dwell without > reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, > Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to > the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' > *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when > one does not attain the eight attainments (attha > samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' > > > Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the > decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. > '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a > counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the > world' > > Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at > AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the > 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. > > I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for > concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is > replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to > MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). > > In any case I'm not at all sure, Teng Kee, why this > 5th cause would support your contention (as I > understand it) that all arahats inc. sukkhavipassaka > must have attained jhana 1st. > > > Buddhaghosa used the word sukkhavipassa in > > attainment of one thousand year of arahat ,another > > thousand year of anagami etc for our sasana beacuse > > at the end we can only find arahat without iddhi > > (regardless there attain as samathayanika or > > sukkavipassaka). > > I understood this to mean w'out attainment of jhana. > Does it specify somewhere that still can attain jhana > but not iddhi (special powers)? > > > Sukkahavipassaka like sakha deva , visakha can be > > called ajhana because they never learn jhana but the > > jhana just come out due to insight at the end of > > that insight (before that citta vithi of > > attainment). > > Can you give us a reference? I'm very out of my depth > here, but I think it's an important area to discuss > further. > > But monk can be having jhana but still > > attain frution by insight follow by jhana (not as > > emerge from jhana). > > o.k. I'm sure many variations like this are (or were) > possible! > > I'm interested to keep this discussion open but it's > not at all easy! I hope i haven't caused unnecessary > frustrations with ignorant comments! secretly hoping that Rob may come back on this issue > which he'd follow along much better than me..> > > Regards, > Sarah > > p.s. we appreciate your efforts to contribute in these > areas, please just add what you can, when you can, > Teng Kee. How did you come to be so well-read and suchthink > a pali scholar I wonder.... > Dear sarah, I am not a pali scholar and I don't think anyone will be after buddhist year 2000(start losing of pariyatti after this year)).I must say that if you follow famous meditation teacher like mahasi sayadaw-they will teach you their method won't need any jhana but just insight alone.Some of them will say by doing this you are having first jhana(not all of them think so).This is why I mentioned samyutta commentary warning (from arahant who know the future)that they maybe teaching wrong method .They gave many reasons like having no time for jhana,easier for layman and monk etc.All these are unacceptable because nibbana is the thing that require all effort for our limited parami but not just a part time thing like those people during Buddha's time.Strangely their best teacher -ledi sayadaw think sukkhavipassaka is a very hard method because you have to have higher wisdom.he passed away 50 years ago before mahasi sayadaw method became the most most popular theravada meditation method.I have no idea at all if he is still alive. The book-criticism and replies is a book written by Mahasi follower about a sri lanka monk debate essays.I don't think that sri lankan monk was having right view too compare to the burmese theory. The soma thera tranl. is in the intro part (commentary)for that mentioning of samathayanika etc before the begining of sutta. I repeat that sukkhavipasaka means your attainment of fruition is insight follow by jhana(before that cittavithi of frution).The jhana come out due to insight for people like visakha lady etc who have no jhana before or having jhana but didn't emerge from it as samathayanika do. Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution as sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he meant the arahant at that time will have no iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka aroud buddhist year1000. from Teng Kee. 3709 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 8:48pm Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > In samyutta nikaya -kassapa samyutta last > > sutta about losing of true > > dhamma-com. mentioned not attain and no effort to > > gain those 8 jhana can be one of the reason for > > it.But we can't find sub com comment about it.See > > Bhikkhu bodhi samyutta nikaya which he did > > transalted in the notes but didn't comment on it. > > This I have been able to read and I'll quote a little > for others as it's interesting AND short!: > > The counterfeit of the True Dhamma > '........The true Dhamma does not disappear all at > once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, > five detrimental things that lead to the decay and > disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? > Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay > followers, and the female lay followers dwell without > reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they > dwell without reverence and deference towards the > Dhamma; they dwell without reverence and deference > towads the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and > deference towards the training; they dwell without > reverence and deference towards concentration.* These, > Kassapa are the five detrimental things that lead to > the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma.' > *'One dwells without reverence for concentration when > one does not attain the eight attainments (attha > samapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them.' > > > Actually, this is a really interesting sutta about the > decline of the Dhamma even in the Buddha's time. > '..the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a > counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the > world' > > Now a footnote reminds us that a parallel passage at > AN 111 247 repeats the 1st 4 causes but replaces the > 5th by 'lack of mutual respect and deference'. > > I am curious as to why the 5th cause (reverence for > concentration)is mentioned here but suspect as it is > replaced in AN that it may be because he's speaking to > MahaKassapa. (Amara could you check this w/ KSujin). Dear Sarah, Teng Kee, friends, K. Supee has faxed me the Thai version of both sutta and you are right, the one where the Buddha was talking to Maha Kassapa (Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta) gives the fifth reason as disrespect for samadhi and in the Kimbila Sutta it is disrespect for one another. I also think that Sarah is right that in the first case he was talking to one of the greatest ascetics. I will ask Khun Sujin this Saturday what she thinks of this and report further, Amara 3710 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas I know I am not. I am naught. with metta, des >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas >Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:18:32 -0000 > >--- "m. nease" wrote: > > How could I not be deluded? It's the nature of 'I' to > > be deluded--no delusion, no 'I'. > > This is it! > > > How could this be otherwise? We all live nearly every > > moment of our lives possessed by wrong view--otherwise > > we'd be Ariyans (maybe you are--I certainly am not). > > How could we study the words of the Buddha, day after > > day, year after year and still be motivated at nearly > > every moment by ignorance, aversion and desire, > > however subtle? Unless the Right-Factors of the > > Eightfold Path are really something very different > > from conventional, conceptual understanding, and > > dependent on impossible-to-change results of past > > kamma. > > Yes, this is logical. > > > Well, just my two cents' worth... > > I like your sense. :-))) Thank you, Mike. > >Anumodana to your sharing, >Alex > 3711 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:03am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Num, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarah Procter Abbott > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? > > not correct If a person is born with adosa hetu patisanthi (with alobha, and with/without panna), the bhavanga cittas (and cuti citta) in that life always co-arises with adosa cetasikas. However, as mentioned in an earlier post, when the word "metta" is used (for adosa cetasika), I believe: 1) Has to have a person/being as the object 2) May occur in the following types of cittas only: Akusala (12): doesn't occur Ahetuka (18): doesn't occur Maha-kusala/Maha-Kiriya (16): may occur (although adosa is always present) Maha-vipaka (8): doesn't occur Rupa-vajara/Rupa-Kiriya/Rupa-Vipaka (Jhana up to the 4th level) (12): may occur Rupa-varaja/Rupa-Kiriya/Rupa-Vipaka (5th level jhana) (3) + Arupa (12): doesn't occur Lokuttara (8/40): doesn't occur. kom 3712 From: m. nease Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama A good clarification, Sarah, thanks. mike 3713 From: Date: Thu Mar 1, 2001 11:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] A Self-Introduction Thank you, Num! :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 3/1/01 12:21:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Hi Howard, > > Nice to know you. Very nice self-introduction. You have came a long way. > > Wish you on the path to your goal. > > Anumodhana in your deed. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3714 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:02am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > I know I am not. I am naught. > with metta, > des Hi and welcome to the discussions, Des! Looking forward to more cool comments, A fellow member of the group, Amara 3715 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > > metta, correct? Dear K. s Num and Kom, Hope you don't mind my making a few comments: As I understand it, metta and karuna are kusala citta composed of many kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the annasamana, the compositions are slightly different in all the four brahma vihara. Of course they are always accompanied by sati and sometimes panna, but since there must be some entity as object for all four, it follows that the last arammana of the last vithi citta (process of citta) in a lifetime before cuti citta arises (after many bhavanga interposing) may not be an entity or perhaps an entity towards whom one does not entertain metta, but karuna, mudita or upekkha kusala citta, for example. Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. In either case adosa would be present, and in the case of the person with panna, alobha and amoha as well. In which case all three hetu for being born humans or higher would be present, since the next patisandhi-citta (as well as that life's 'set' of bhavanga and cutti citta) will always have the same arammana as the last vithi citta process of the life that is ending. The succeeding cutti citta of the life that is ending will of course have the same arammana as the bhavanga and patisandhi of that lifetime, which was also the arammana of the preceding lifetime's last vithi citta. Which is also why one thinks it is the 'same person' who is born and dies. The next patisandhi citta will always depend on that current lifetime's last arammana of the last vithi citta process, which will be vipaka from one of the billions of eons of kamma that is ready to give results right then, causing that arammana to arise and be experienced by the last vithi of citta, determining the next patisandhi citta's arammana, and consequetly the arammana of the bhavanga and cuti citta for the entire next lifetime. EXCEPT in the case of the arahanta, whose attainment had turned all kamma into kiriya citta and therefore resultless, therefore panna of the last vithi citta will have NIBBANA AS ARAMMANA for the last time in samsara. Does this make any sense? Amara 3716 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 1:05pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Khun Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > ... > EXCEPT in the case of the arahanta, whose > attainment had turned all > kamma into kiriya citta and therefore resultless, > therefore panna of > the last vithi citta will have NIBBANA AS > ARAMMANA for the last time > in samsara. > > Does this make any sense? > Yes, it is the first time, however, that I have heard that the last vithi citta of an arahanta would have Nibbhana as the object. kom 3717 From: Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 8:26am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Well, hope my questions did not intimidate anyone. I just want to understand dhamma better, idea of self or being is so subtle. I think critical thinking and careful consideration could help me understand idea of nonself and paccaya better. Thanks Kom, K.Amara and Sarah, I really appreciate your input. Sarah, thanks for invitation to India. I afraid that I will be too busy in Oct this yr. I really want to join the trip. Chances are not always unkind. I will make it someday. Please keep me post. I saw that BBC brain documentary. Very interesting. Let me hold my impulse regarding questions about sanna cetasiksa and cont' with metta question. > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > with adosa hetu patisanthi > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > metta, correct? Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi and bhavanga are both vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same aramana. Since both of them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu paccaya. Even though we categorize patisanthi as sahetuka with dvi-hetu or tri-hetu but that came from previous hetu citta which conditioned pathisanthi as vipaka. So now I think bhavanga citta can coarises with sobhana cetasika but it's not a hetu paccaya Bhavanga is just a life-continuum not a hetuka citta. Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises with every sobhana citta(kusula, kiriya, vipaka and lokuttara citta). Vipaka and kiriya citta are not hetu paccaya but kusula citta( or akusula) is hetu paccaya. Hope it does make sense. Please correct me if I am wrong. More questions to come. Appreciate, Num 3718 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:41pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > Yes, it is the first time, however, that I have heard that > the last vithi citta of an arahanta would have Nibbhana as > the object. Dear K. Kom, You made me rethink that one, and make another retraction, to be amended when I have consulted K. Sujin; I still think it is possible for those with jhana citta to have nibbana as arammana after having attained the stages of enlightenment as well, for example the Buddha at his parinibbana. I am not so sure about other arahanta, sorry for the presumption. Whatever arammana arises, however, would no longer cause anything but kiriya citta to arise, I am sure. Actually there is another mistake that I am surprised you did not point out, K. Kom! : Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. You know of course that upekkha is exactly what one would have for non entities! I'm glad you guys are there to keep me from stating misunderstandings (even unintentionally) for the teachings, Thanks and anumodana, Amara 3719 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > 3) When a person is in deep sleep, if he/she born > > with adosa hetu patisanthi > > citta, his/her bhavanga citta always coarises with > > metta, correct? Dear Num, Have you seen my post 3715? (please follow it with 3718!) Anumodana in your studies, Amara > Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi and bhavanga are both > vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same aramana. Since both of > them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu paccaya. Even though we > categorize patisanthi as sahetuka with dvi-hetu or tri-hetu but that came > from previous hetu citta which conditioned pathisanthi as vipaka. So now I > think bhavanga citta can coarises with sobhana cetasika but it's not a hetu > paccaya Bhavanga is just a life-continuum not a hetuka citta. > > Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises with every sobhana > citta(kusula, kiriya, vipaka and lokuttara citta). Vipaka and kiriya citta > are not hetu paccaya but kusula citta( or akusula) is hetu paccaya. > > Hope it does make sense. > > Please correct me if I am wrong. > > More questions to come. > > Appreciate, > > Num 3720 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > I still think it is possible for those with jhana > citta to have > nibbana as arammana after having attained the > stages of enlightenment > as well, for example the Buddha at his > parinibbana. I am not so sure I have heard that an Ariya (who has attained Jhana as well) can have nibhana as aramana in Phala Samabat (sp?). > Whatever arammana > arises, however, would no longer cause anything > but kiriya citta to > arise, I am sure. I have heard that Javana vithi for an arahat (non-Jhana) would only be kiriya or the smiling ahetu citta. It is unclear to me what the cuti-vithi would be. Lucky that I don't have such pressing need to know! > > You know of course that upekkha is exactly what > one would have for non > entities! It is unclear to me what you are saying here. Are you saying that the cuti-vithi would have upekka as vedana if the aramana is paramatha? kom 3721 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 3:52pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Num, Again, I am not really answering your questions here, am just making some observations... > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > > Can I approach my question this way. Patisanthi > and bhavanga are both > vipaka citta in nature. They also have the same > aramana. Since both of > them are vipaka citta, so they are not hetu > paccaya. If you are explicitly discussing hetu paccaya, as in the 24 major paccayas. Then, hetu paccaya means a hetu cetasika (one of the 6 hetu cetasikas) is a pacaya for another (co-arising) dhamma, which can be citta, cetasikas, karma-samuthana rupa, and citta-samuthana rupa. A hetu cetasika is NOT a hetu paccaya for another dhamma that arises AFTER it arises. A hetu cetasika IS a hetu paccaya for the co-arising dhamma even when the dhamma is vipaka and kiriya. An Arahant's kiriya citta IS conditioned by hetu paccaya as it arises with alobha and adosa. If you are talking about hetu more generally as a "cause," then a hetu cetasika in Vipaka and Kiriya citta is NOT a cause of future dhamma. > Let me sum up. Adosa cetasika(metta) coarises As mentioned before, although metta is adosa, I don't believe metta is equivalent to adosa. kom 3722 From: bruce Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 4:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion you all are so precise and careful....anumodana, i am learning much from this thread... bruce 3723 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > You know of course that upekkha is exactly what > > one would have for non > > entities! > > It is unclear to me what you are saying here. Are you > saying that the cuti-vithi would have upekka as vedana if > the aramana is paramatha? > > kom Dear K. Kom, It was from No.3715, where I said, 'Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for nibbana. ' Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four paramatthadhamma. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as well, I would think. Amara 3724 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 9:25pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > It was from No.3715, where I said, > > 'Or perhaps the dying person is lucky enough to have paramatthadhamma > as arammana (of course luck has nothing to do with it, it must be the > vipaka of some past kamma), at which point the arammana of the > patisandhi citta and all bhavanga as well as the cuti citta of the > next lifetime would not be accompanied by metta or any of the brahma > vihara, but panna and other combinations of kusala citta, since one > can't have metta for hardness or heat any more than one could for > nibbana. ' > > Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > paramatthadhamma. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, > what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as > well, I would think. Dear K. Kom et al., My apologies, I made another mistake correcting the old one!!! The above should read: > Which is imprecise since it is true that one can have upekkha for > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > BRAHMA VIHARA. Indeed when there is paramatthadhamma as arammana, > what could one have but upekkha? That includes the cuti citta as > well, I would think. Amara 3725 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Mar 2, 2001 11:03pm Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Amara, > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara > > > Which is imprecise since it is true that one > can have upekkha for > > paramatthadhamma, and upekkha is also one of the four > > paramatthadhamma. This one is as technically correct as the correction! (even if it is not what you meant). Upekkha is Sankhara Khanda (tatramajjhattata [equanimity] cetasika). It is also Brahma Vihara. > Indeed when there is > paramatthadhamma as > arammana, > > what could one have but upekkha? That includes > the cuti citta as > > well, I would think. I am nit-picking on this one, and am hoping that it doesn't cause any frustration. What I have heard is that when the object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika Also, as you have explained in a past post (after confirming with Tan A. Sujin), even magga / phala cittas, having nibbana as the object, can have either sommanassa vedana or upekkha vedana depending on the accumulation. When I read a sutta sometimes and there is some statement similar to: And the Blessed One instructed Cunda the metalworker in the Dhamma, and roused, edified, and gladdened him. After this he rose from his seat and departed. Or commonly in the Thai translation: instructing the person causing the person to be brave and happy I often interpret the states of "being glad" or "being happy" as the sommanassa / piti cetasikas in Satipatthana (or at least kusala). This is, of course, could be way off from what the Buddha said!!! Back to the tipitaka! where you can listen to the Teacher himself... kom 3726 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 0:02am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > This one is as technically correct as the correction! (even > if it is not what you meant). Upekkha is Sankhara Khanda > (tatramajjhattata [equanimity] cetasika). It is also Brahma > Vihara. > > > Indeed when there is > > paramatthadhamma as > > arammana, > > > what could one have but upekkha? That includes > > the cuti citta as > > > well, I would think. > > I am nit-picking on this one, and am hoping that it doesn't > cause any frustration> What I have heard is that when the > object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna > (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: > - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana > - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika > > Also, as you have explained in a past post (after confirming > with Tan A. Sujin), even magga / phala cittas, having > nibbana as the object, can have either sommanassa vedana or > upekkha vedana depending on the accumulation. Dear K. Kom, Thanks for the nit picking, my age is really turning me into a nit-wit! First, I have to go back to the brahma vihara, and reconfirm that they MUST HAVE SOME ENTITY AS ARAMMANA (after all!) even without confirming with khun Sujin!!! What caused my confusion are precisely the tatramajjhattata (which are upekkha vedana cetasika) that arise with different kusala citta: There are 10 kinds of upekkha (indifference), namely: Chalagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to the 6 arammana of the arahanta, who has eradicated all kilesa. Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities. Bojjhagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is one of the components that make enlightenment possible. Viriyupekkha, the viriya-cetasika which is right perseverance which is not too tense nor too lax in the development of bhavana. Sankharupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is indifferent when the realization of the tilakkhana of the sankhara-dhamma. Vedanupekkha, the vedana-cetasika that does not feel unhappy or happy. Vipassanupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is neutral in the consideration of the arammana that arises from causes and conditions. Tatramajjhattatupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika that is neutral, not biased or partial. Jhanupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the jhana which attenuates the preoccupation by other dhamma which renders the peace less steadfast. This intends especially the tatiyajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which has abandoned piti. Parisuddhupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the catutthajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which is completely peaceful and cleansed from all adversaries, without any further function to abandon the elements of jhana. (End quote)- this is from a part of the 'Summary' Part V Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, advanced section, You will have seen that the brahma vihara is in its own category and the tatramajjhattata there is uniquely for entities and never for the paramattha. And yes, > when the > object is paramatha, the kusala citta, arising with Panna > (as in Satipatthana), can be one of the followings: > - arising with somanassa vedana / upekkha vedana > - being sankharika [led/encouraged/weak] / asankharika The citta can be only these four kusala citta, (with or without upekkha, more precisely two with and two without). Thanks for the reminders, I envy your smart young brains! Anumodana, > When I read a sutta sometimes and there is some statement > similar to: > > And the Blessed One instructed Cunda the metalworker in the > Dhamma, and roused, edified, and gladdened him. After this > he rose from his seat and departed. > > Or commonly in the Thai translation: > > instructing the person causing the person to be brave and > happy > > I often interpret the states of "being glad" or "being > happy" as the sommanassa / piti cetasikas in Satipatthana > (or at least kusala). This is, of course, could be way off > from what the Buddha said!!! > > Back to the tipitaka! where you can listen to the Teacher > himself... > > kom 3727 From: Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:33am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Thanks Kom and K.Amara for your comment. <<>> <<>> I think you are right. So cetana-cetasika is a nanakkhanikka-kamma-paccaya for future vipaka citta as well as sahajata-kamma-paccaya for coarising citta and cetasika. While hetu-paccaya is paccaya for citta and cetasika which coarise with hetu-cetasika. <<>> What do you think if I put it this way. 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are parts of sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise with any sobhana cittas whether there is entity or person as an arammana or not. 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and mudita-cetasika, need entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise only with kusula or kiriya citta that has entity or person as an arammana. The following is from part V, summary of paramatthadhamma: <<>> Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity for me. As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is different from lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which accompany by somanassa vedana. They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and clinging to my friends or the one I love is different from adosa or metta moment. Well, akusula is subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well with idea of self, entity or being. Hard for me to see. For me some people are annoying. It's easier for me to be kind to someone I like than dislike. Hope right understanding can help me see thing better and clearer. Long way to go. Appreciate. Num 3728 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 10:57am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear K. Num > << kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the annasamana, the compositions > are slightly different in all the four brahma vihara.>>> > > What do you think if I put it this way. > > 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are parts of > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise with any sobhana cittas > whether there is entity or person as an arammana or not. Almost but not quite, as Kom said, either tatramajjhattata OR piti could arise with kusala citta (They are both vedana and there can't be two at a time; either you are indifferent or happy to a certain degree.) > 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and mudita-cetasika, need > entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise only with kusula or kiriya > citta that has entity or person as an arammana. As I quoted from the 'Summary', 'Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities.' Therefore in the development of brahma vihara, all four; metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, must have entities as arammana. > The following is from part V, summary of paramatthadhamma: > > << adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- cetasika, mudita-bhavana or > mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In the > development of samatha-bhavana, which is brahmavihara, the mahakusala > composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop or grow until it becomes a > strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the samadhi close to be firmly > transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi (firmly transfixed to the > arammana.), which is the first level of jhana-citta. And when the > development continues, one would achieve the second level of jhana-citta, > then the third, the fourth etc. But metta, karuna and mudita cannot attain > the level of pancamajjhana, which is the fifth rupa-jhana, because the first > levels of jhana-citta: first, second, third and fourth, arise together with > somanassa-vedana. Therefore to develop brahmavihara-bhavana to the level of > pancamajjhana it must be uniquely the upekkha-brahmavihara. Therefore metta, > karuna and mudita would be arammana for the pathamajjhana, dutiyajjhana, > tatiyajjhana and catutthajjhana while upekkha-brahmavihara is uniquely the > arammana of the pancamajjhana.>>> > > Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity for me. > > As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is different from > lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which accompany by somanassa vedana. > They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and clinging to my friends or > the one I love is different from adosa or metta moment. Well, akusula is > subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well with idea of self, entity > or being. Hard for me to see. For me some people are annoying. It's > easier for me to be kind to someone I like than dislike. Hope right > understanding can help me see thing better and clearer. Long way to go. At least we have started and are moving!!! May we all be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, Amara 3729 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 3:54pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > The one English term that I find particularly > troublesome is 'reality' > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > prefer the term > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > experienced (directly) rather > than merely inferred as the referent of a > constructed concept/percept. I > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > Pali or any other > language is a critical matter, because every term > carries with it > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > direction or a harmful one. I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. However, just a comment on your reason given above for preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them. This is another respect in which they can be distinguished from concepts. Jon 3730 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 5:09pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama Mike In a off-list post you said: If I understand you, right view (like all the other path-factors) is really just an extremely rare (and typically brief) quality arising and subsiding just before the arising of ariyan states. I apologise if I said that or gave that impression. Right view and all the other path factors are, as we know, cetasikas (in the case of right view, the cetasika panna - wisdom). They are all cetasikas which may arise with daily life cittas (moments of consciousness). However, when they arise as path factors (whether the mundane path or the supramundane path) they have special characteristics and perform special functions that distinguish them from their non-path counterparts [these are described in detail at Vis. XVI, 75-83.] So the cetasikas of the non-path kusala moments are not of the same ‘samma’ quality as the same cetasikas arising at path moments. Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my earlier post(s) (which I hope this does!). Jon 3731 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 8:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Amara, Kom and Num Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some days ago?!? Jon --- Amara wrote: > Dear K. Num > > > << citta composed of > many > > kusala cetasika, not only adosa cetasika and the > annasamana, the > compositions > > are slightly different in all the four brahma > vihara.>>> > > > > What do you think if I put it this way. > > > > 1.Adosa-cetasika and tatramajjhattata-cetasika are > parts of > > sobhana-sadharana-cetasika. So both of them arise > with any sobhana > cittas > > whether there is entity or person as an arammana > or not. > > Almost but not quite, as Kom said, either > tatramajjhattata OR piti > could arise with kusala citta (They are both vedana > and there can't > be two at a time; either you are indifferent or > happy to a certain > degree.) > > > 2. The 2 appamanna-cetasika, karuna-cetasika and > mudita-cetasika, > need > > entity or person as an arammana. So it can arise > only with kusula or > kiriya > > citta that has entity or person as an arammana. > > As I quoted from the 'Summary', > > 'Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika > which is > indifferent to all entities.' Therefore in the > development of brahma > vihara, all four; metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > must have > entities as arammana. > > > The following is from part V, summary of > paramatthadhamma: > > > > << namely > metta-bhavana or > > adosa-cetasika, karuna-bhavana or karuna- > cetasika, mudita-bhavana > or > > mudita-cetasika, upekkha-bhavana or > tatramajjhattata-cetasika. In > the > > development of samatha-bhavana, which is > brahmavihara, the > mahakusala > > composed with metta, karuna or mudita will develop > or grow until it > becomes a > > strong, steadfast peace as upacara-samadhi (the > samadhi close to be > firmly > > transfixed to the arammana.) and appana-samadhi > (firmly transfixed > to the > > arammana.), which is the first level of > jhana-citta. And when the > > development continues, one would achieve the > second level of > jhana-citta, > > then the third, the fourth etc. But metta, karuna > and mudita cannot > attain > > the level of pancamajjhana, which is the fifth > rupa-jhana, because > the first > > levels of jhana-citta: first, second, third and > fourth, arise > together with > > somanassa-vedana. Therefore to develop > brahmavihara-bhavana to the > level of > > pancamajjhana it must be uniquely the > upekkha-brahmavihara. > Therefore metta, > > karuna and mudita would be arammana for the > pathamajjhana, > dutiyajjhana, > > tatiyajjhana and catutthajjhana while > upekkha-brahmavihara is > uniquely the > > arammana of the pancamajjhana.>>> > > > > Hmmm, this is a really good learning opportunity > for me. > > > > As I mentioned earlier, metta (as well karuna) is > different from > > lobha-mula-citta, esp. lobha-mula-cittas which > accompany by > somanassa vedana. > > They cannot arise together. Well, attachment and > clinging to my > friends or > > the one I love is different from adosa or metta > moment. Well, > akusula is > > subtle and deep, it disguises and camouflages well > with idea of > self, entity > > or being. Hard for me to see. For me some > people are annoying. > It's > > easier for me to be kind to someone I like than > dislike. Hope right > > understanding can help me see thing better and > clearer. Long way to > go. > > At least we have started and are moving!!! > > May we all be brave and cheerful in the dhamma, > > Amara > 3732 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 9:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some > days ago?!? > > Jon Hi! Jon, I'll probably confuse you more with my careless mistakes, let's ask the other two! Amara 3733 From: Date: Sat Mar 3, 2001 7:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/3/01 2:54:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > troublesome is 'reality' > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > prefer the term > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > experienced (directly) rather > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > constructed concept/percept. I > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > Pali or any other > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > carries with it > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > direction or a harmful one. > > I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being > exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be > less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by > each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. > > However, just a comment on your reason given above for > preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali > 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and > fall away independently of anyone's experience of > them. This is another respect in which they can be > distinguished from concepts. > > Jon > =================================== You write "Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them." I have just one question with regard to that: Exactly how would anyone come to know that? [Obviously, all this talk of "anyone" is just conventional speech.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3734 From: m. nease Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 2:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Samma-Vayama --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify my > earlier > post(s) (which I hope this does!). Thanks, yes it does, especially together with Sarah's helpful post on the subject. mike 3735 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 3:32am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) experiences. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:55 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, > concepts and dhammas > > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 3/3/01 2:54:48 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > writes: > > > > Howard > > > > > The one English term that I find particularly > > > troublesome is 'reality' > > > (when applied to anything other than nibbana). I far > > > prefer the term > > > 'actuality', in the sense of something actually > > > experienced (directly) rather > > > than merely inferred as the referent of a > > > constructed concept/percept. I > > > think that the choice of terms we use in translating > > > Pali or any other > > > language is a critical matter, because every term > > > carries with it > > > connotations that may direct the mind in a useful > > > direction or a harmful one. > > > > I'm not sure that I see the choice of terms as being > > exactly critical, since any term chosen is bound to be > > less than perfect and anyway will be interpreted by > > each according to their own ignorance and wrong views. > > > > However, just a comment on your reason given above for > > preferring the term 'actuality' for the pali > > 'paramattha dhamma'. Paramattha dhammas arise and > > fall away independently of anyone's experience of > > them. This is another respect in which they can be > > distinguished from concepts. > > > > Jon > > > =================================== > You write "Paramattha dhammas arise and > fall away independently of > anyone's experience of them." I have just one > question with regard to that: > Exactly how would anyone come to know that? > [Obviously, all this talk of > "anyone" is just conventional speech.] > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting > world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer > cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the > Diamond Sutra) > > > 3736 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 3:32am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Jon, I think the discussion was on: 1) What adosa, metta (also adosa) and karuna (compassion) are 2) The possible objects for adosa, metta, and karuna 3) The cittas that compassion can arise with 4) This all went back to Joyce's assertation that compassion must arise with panna that arises with mindfulness (satipatthana). Adosa and Metta (http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html): Adosa-cetasika is the cetasika that is not irritated, coarse or fierce, with the characteristics of friendliness (and because of its benevolence and beneficence, it is called metta. Karuna (same source): Karuna-cetasika is the cetasika that is beneficent to entities in trouble, with non-aggression as apparent characteristics. Object for Adosa can be pannatti or paramattha. Object for Metta is pannatti (beings) Object for Karuna is pannatti (beings) Cittas that compassion can arise with: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3711 (summary: possible mistakes) http://www.dhammastudy.com/paramat5.html (details) Based on my understandings of Dhamma, compassion (Karuna) does NOT arise with Satipatthana (mindfulness) as Satipatthana has paramattha dhamma as the object and karuna has pannatti as the object. I think this point is asserted (to some extent or other) among Sarah, Khun Amara, Khun Num, and I. Open issue that Khun Armara is verifying: alobha, when used in the sense of being metta, can have pannatti as the object only. kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonothan Abbott > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 4:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread some > days ago?!? > > Jon 3737 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 1:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Kom - In response to my writing to Jon: "You write 'Paramattha dhammas arise and fall away independently of anyone's experience of them'. I have just one question with regard to that: Exactly how would anyone come to know that?", you reply - Dear Howard, This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) experiences. kom ==================================== I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly commented on whether dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. But he did emphasize that what is to be known is to be known by direct experience, and not by reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason (which is often brought in to serve to justify our grasping and predispositions). Many observers, including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand dhammas as experiential, as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being some hidden somethings lurking behind experience, but not experiential themselves. They understand the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and softmess), movement, temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, water - all these are experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is not to be found somewhere "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an element of experience. My point was simply that that which is known in any way is experiential, by definition. Something which is, in principle, unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an object of one of the six senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) is pragmatically and epistemologically nonexistent. If by faith, you mean a faith in the Buddha's knowing what is not knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do have is a strong confidence, gained by following the Buddha's path, that he, indeed, discovered and correctly taught the way which, if walked to its end, marks the end of suffering. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3738 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:20am Subject: RE: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Dear Howard, > -----Original Message----- > From: [mailto:] > > In response to my writing to Jon: "You > write 'Paramattha dhammas arise > and fall away independently of anyone's > experience of them'. I have just one > question with regard to that: Exactly how would > anyone come to know that?", > you reply - > > Dear Howard, > > This is where faith comes in. The Buddha has > sappanyuyutta-nana, the panna that knows all realities as > they truely are. Otherwise, all we can say is, all > realities are only those characteristics we (satipatthana) > experiences. > > kom > ==================================== > I do not believe that the Buddha > explicitly commented on whether > dhammas are things that are or are not > experiential. I agree with you from the standpoint that he teaches about things that some people won't be able to experience. However, his most significant teachings are those that we can (but may not be able to) experience directly. > But he did emphasize > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > experience, and not by > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > (which is often brought in > to serve to justify our grasping and > predispositions). Yes, the most important dhammas that we need to learn can be directly experienced. > Many observers, > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, > understand dhammas as experiential, > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of > being some hidden somethings > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > themselves. They understand > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness > (and softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, > fire, water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > element of experience. If we argue that the Buddha DOES NOT have sappanyuyutta-nanna, and what he taught are the direct results of what he experienced, then, by that logic, Ven Nyanaponika's argument would make sense. How could the Buddha know if realities exist beyond what he experienced? If we argue that the Buddha DOES have sappanyuyutta-nanna, then he knows by such nanna that some realities (characteristics) manifest even when there is nobody experiencing it. However, since we cannot ascertain the fact for ourselves because of the lack of such nanna, then all we understand is that because Buddha is such and such, therefore, we can rely on him being right. My understanding of what the Buddha taught certainly doesn't match Ven. Nyanaponika's. As I understand it, realities exist even when we do not experience it. Again, since I cannot prove this for a fact, my offer of reasonings (which can be flawed) is this: since the thing that exists before [we did not experience it] conditions what exists now [we experience it and know that it exists now], it stands to reason that there must be something that exists before, even though we did not experience it. Furthermore, I can see (one way) how Ven. Nyanaponika's argument about the realities only existing as part of the experience can fatally degenerate into the arguments against conditionalities and causalities. For example, if you do not experience now, therefore, there is and was no such realities. That virtually means past kamma [when we did not experience, or no longer can experience] cannot condition the current Vipaka. There are no causes, there are no results. The conclusion for a degenerate case based on the reasoning is frightening to me. > My point was simply that that which is > known in any way is > experiential, by definition. If the experience you are talking about here is that of Satipatthana, then I think agreeing with you here is safe. However, if you are talking about any other kinds of conventional experiences, then agreeing with you is unsafe. I may think I am experiencing freedom, while in fact, freedom has no paramatha characteristics and cannot be an object of satipatthana. > Something which is, > in principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is > experienceable) is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. I would decompose this into two topics: 1) If the realities (not experienced, or more exactly, not conditioning directly or indirectly the arising of nama) do exist or not 2) If the realities (not conditioning directly or indirectly the arising of nama) is significant to one who doesn't experience or not. The answer to 1) is yes, even though I cannot prove such existence, because the Buddha (my understandings) taught this and I have faith in what he taught. The answer to 2) is clearly no, if the realities do not condition directly or indirectly the arising of nama. Then the "person" neither develops kusala, or akusala because of the dhamma. Then from this standpoint, the realities is virtually/pragmatically non-existent to the person. The additional argument beyond these two is that, even if the conditioning dhamma conditions the arising of conditioned nama, its ONLY significance is that it conditions other dhammas. Its infinitesimally brief, complexly conditioned existence has no other significance (and therefore, shouldn't be the object of attachment). What I place significance to be me, mine (external or internal, nama or rupa) do all have such charateristics, and hence, are in reality insignificant. I remember Khun Sujin saying this (not a precise quote) on dhammas that we experience: that even if it exists, it might as well not exist. My guess of the reasoning behind this quote is that all the dhammas that we experience are brief and conditioned. Even Nibhanna, whose existence certainly is not brief, is still insignificant: we for the most part do not experience it, and when we experience it, it still will be beause of conditions. > If by faith, you mean a faith in the > Buddha's knowing what is not > knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do > have is a strong > confidence, gained by following the Buddha's > path, that he, indeed, > discovered and correctly taught the way which, if > walked to its end, marks > the end of suffering. Anumoddhana for your confidence in the dhamma. kom ps: This email is long already, which is why it is a PS. I think it is important to have faith in the teachings, but not blind faith, and within reasons, even if you cannot prove it for yourself (yet). Faith is important because otherwise, we may be tempted to say the teachings that we cannot experience for ourselves are insignificant, incorrect, or not worth learning. The problem with blind faith is that it blinds: even when truth presents itself to us, the incorrect faith blinds us and doesn't allow us to see the truth. My faith in the Buddha's teachings are based on the following reasonnings: There are certain points in the teachings that I have not yet experienced. For example, nibhanna. Does it exist? How about Vipaka, is what we are experiencing truly the results of past kamma? How about last life, next life? I cannot prove it now. All I can say about some of the teachings now is that it seems to make sense. However, not knowing that as it is, I cannot ascertain for myself that what Buddha taught is true. On the other hand, there are also things that I can prove to myself now. Hardness, softness, coldness, heat, tensions, lobha, mana, anger, all are within reach of experiential experiment. These are refined dhamma, hard to see, hard to understand, and hard (impossible) to come up with such perfect descriptions of such realities by my own reasonings. How does the Buddha come up with such perfect descriptions of such refined truths? The more I match what I experience with what the Buddha taught, the more confidence I have in the Dhamma, and taking other teachings (that I cannot yet prove) as the possibly correct model of how things really work doesn't seem as bad. The thing that I have to be aware of is, my model of how things really work may be wrong, and must stand ready to correct such wrong views. 3739 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 11:31am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Jon, friends, And K. Kom, Thanks for the precise summation and for leaving me the easy part! Consequently, here goes the diatribe (get ready to nit pick, people!): the brahma vihara ('the brahma's domain'). These comprise metta (friendship), karuna (assistance), mudita (empathic joy) and upekkha (impartiality/indifference). They can be exercised in daily life as well as be four of the forty arammana of samma samadhi practice. They were therefore extant in the days before the Buddha's time, as well as after, and must have an entity, something live, as arammana, one could not have metta for a rock, karuna for a table or mudita for a tree. Upekkha (adosa + tatramajjhattata cetasika +other kusala cetasika) on the other hand could arise with anything as arammana, but when it is Brahmaviharupekkha even it must have a being as arammana. All four are adosa cetasika in different combinations with other cetasika that arise with the citta. In daily life, the citta arises in succession so swiftly that while one has friendship towards someone, (there is no wish to harm them), or when one helps some living thing that needs help through knowledge or physical assistance, or to have empathic joy with others' good fortunes, or to have indifference when one could do nothing to help others; there would still be instants when awareness could arise of realities that appear through the six dvara even as one is performing the brahmavihara, in alternation with the citta of the brahmavihara. At those instants of awareness there would be paramatthadhamma as arammana, visible objects, seeing, thinking, hardness taste, whatever appears, alternating with the thinking of the entity the kusala citta of brahmavihara are having as arammana. Upekkha, a kind of which forms the last brahmavihara, has special specific duties when arising with different kinds of citta, as I quoted from Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part V , Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, in the advanced section of : There are 10 kinds of upekkha (indifference), namely: Chalagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to the 6 arammana of the arahanta, who has eradicated all kilesa. Brahmaviharupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is indifferent to all entities. Bojjhagupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika which is one of the components that make enlightenment possible. Viriyupekkha, the viriya-cetasika which is right perseverance which is not too tense nor too lax in the development of bhavana. Sankharupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is indifferent when the realization of the tilakkhana of the sankhara-dhamma arises. Vedanupekkha, the vedana-cetasika that does not feel unhappy or happy. Vipassanupekkha, the panna-cetasika that is neutral in the consideration of the arammana that arises from causes and conditions. Tatramajjhattatupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika that is neutral, not biased or partial. Jhanupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the jhana which attenuates the preoccupation by other dhamma which renders the peace less steadfast. This intends especially the tatiyajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which has abandoned piti. Parisuddhupekkha, the tatramajjhattata-cetasika in the catutthajjhana (from the perspective of the 4 rupa-jhana), which is completely peaceful and cleansed from all adversaries, without any further function to abandon the elements of jhana. (End quote) Most will have non-entities as object, except for the most common, the vedanupekkha, which can have both entities and non-entities. Brahmaviharupekkha of course has uniquely entities, others whose arammana are still to be verified, culminating with the chalagupekkha or indifference towards all arammana whether beings or paramatthadhamma, unique to the arahanta. **** Another point I mentioned but which is probably clear in message 3715 (amended in 3718 concerning the last vithi arammana of the arahanta) is about the patisandhi being dependent on the last vithi (process of) citta before death, in other words the arammana of the last javana in the 'marana sanna vithi'. As those who recall the order within the vithi citta will agree (or make known their disagreement), roughly the first half of the vithi are made up of vipaka citta, then kiriya citta; then the javana which are the 'vipaka producing' part of either kusala, akusala or kiriya (only for the arahanta). At the moment of death, some past kamma from countless lifetime, or possibly some extremely strong kamma done to an arahanta or the person's parents would cause an arammana to arise and be experienced by the one of the six dvara, and the arammana would be passed on to the series of javana, except that in a dying person the last series of javana is a shorter series of five citta (instead of seven as in the normal vithi process). After countless bhavanga citta following, the cuti citta then arises and falls away having the same arammana as all the bhavanga of that life, ending that entity's life, and becoming anantara paccaya for the next citta to arise, namely the patisandhi citta of the next lifetime, with the rest of the arammana 'carrying over' from the shortened last vithi to the patisandhi, then the first bhavanga of the new set or lifetime. We also discussed the possibility of having sati patthana as the last javana kusala citta, with paramattha as arammana, for some extremely 'lucky' person; at which point the panna there would be a superior kind to even those with the 'normal' tihetuka patisandhi, (with all three alobha, adosa and amoha hetu) of a purer kind than the normal maha kusala citta arising from dana, sila or bhavana of the ordinary type, (or even for those with the jhana citta without knowledge of vipassana, who would be born in an extremely high plane but without much panna of things as they really are, but certainly the panna to know kusala from akusala). At which point the person would be born with a very high degree of amoha hetu and would be able to comprehend realities as they really are faster than normal, if they come across and begin to study the dhamma. All this to make us understand why people (and entities) are born different!!! And also to encourage us to do the best we can at each given moment, because some people think they would study the dhamma when they retire and have the time, for example. Firstly, once the basic theories understood, time is of no consequence since any reality can be studied at all time. Secondly how does one know when death will come, someone pushes the wrong button (submarine or others) and already the new patisandhi citta is conditioned to arise, like blinking and finding your(new)self somewhere else learning completely new things in new surroundings (even as a cell in someone's womb: not understanding that yet, of course). One whole lifetime wasted, tihetuka or not, since the only treasure you could take with you was never developed. When would one hear the dhamma again? Even in this world of ours, what percentage of us hears it, correctly or not? How many of those have the panna to understand it? How many do develop the panna? Meanwhile the dangers of samsara are burning on our heads. End double diatribe! I just realized that it was more of an 'intertwining liana tangle' rather than a 'thread' for this list, no wonder people got lost along the way! Hope this makes more sense, Jon, Amara 3740 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 0:28pm Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > Hardness (and softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. Dear Howard, May I jump in out of the blue mist? I think, just for papanca's sake, some kind of 'platonic heaven' could be compared to some kamma involving panna, such as when the Buddha said of some people something to the effect of 'had he listened longer he would have...' since attainment of one of the levels of ariya puggala would mean a complete eradication of certain akusala cetasika or a serius permanent reduction of their strength. In which case, if one considered kamma and vipaka one of the components in the configurations, one would indeed have a different one out of the 'blue mist'. This works like I said, to a certain degree, until you come up against the case of the arahanta. No more configurations possible there, not even the 'Platonic heaven'!! But on the whole I agree with Howard that one can only prove things exist when they appear to us, all the rest are thoughts, beliefs, what seems to us to make the most sense of our papanca about what we experience throught the six dvara, including and especially the mind. This includes our experiencing 'the Tipitaka', through eyes, ears, (smell+taste?) touch and mind. The rest are thoughts, memories, understanding, perhaps experiencing objects in a new way, panna arising and growing, etc. I agree with Kom, however, in that the only way for panna to grow is to have faith/confidence in the right teachings, study and find out through experience ('check it out!') and thereby develop right understanding. Without which we would be stuck in samsara, with or without the blue Platonic heaven! Just my papanca, Amara It is an element of experience. > My point was simply that that which is known in any way is > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. > If by faith, you mean a faith in the Buddha's knowing what is not > knowable, then I don't have such faith. What I do have is a strong > confidence, gained by following the Buddha's path, that he, indeed, > discovered and correctly taught the way which, if walked to its end, marks > the end of suffering. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3741 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 8:42am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi all, Kom and K.Amara, you have left no more room for me to add anything. Very well put together. I really glad and appreciate. I should have joined this discussion group years ago. I have learned lot. Really good for nurturing critical thinking, careful consideration and right understanding. I used to ask myself that is it really pertinent to study abhidhamma. So far, it's has been very helpful. Remind me that all phenomena are nonself. They come, stay, cease and depend on multiple causes, conditions and paccaya. Rupa and nama are extremely neat and fine in detail. Paramattha dhamma has proved itself and we can see and prove it in our daily movement of life as well. Enchanted. Num 3742 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 8:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Kom - Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed reply. At the moment I would like to briefly address just one issue. > Furthermore, I can see (one way) how Ven. Nyanaponika's > argument about the realities only existing as part of the > experience can fatally degenerate into the arguments against > conditionalities and causalities. For example, if you do > not experience now, therefore, there is and was no such > realities. That virtually means past kamma [when we did not > experience, or no longer can experience] cannot condition > the current Vipaka. There are no causes, there are no > results. The conclusion for a degenerate case based on the > reasoning is frightening to me. > ================================ Phenomenalism need not, and should not, degenerate into a denial of conditionality and causality. In fact, conditionality is central to phenomenalism. Whether all conditions are experiential, on the one hand, or extra-experiential on the other, conditionality and causality is still operative. The principle is simply differently phrased. The position of phenomenalism is not the same as idealism (such as is found in yogacara). It is not that "what is experienced is what exists" as in idealism, but rather "what is experienceable is what exists". The difference is precisely one of conditionality. When a phenomenalist says that there is a pay telephone down the block, what he means is that if certain experiences are made to occur (which we informally and conventionally describe as "walking down the block and looking at what is there"), then other experiences will occur (which are conventionally described as "seeing a pay telephone"). When this arises, that arises. (Of course, "existence" in the foregoing examples is conventional existence. But the principle remains the same for paramatthadhammas.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3743 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 4:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > I really glad and appreciate. I should have joined this > discussion group years ago. > Enchanted. > > Num Cher M. Num, We wouldn't have been there years ago! We're only a year and two months (+a few days) old, the off spring of the brainstorming of Jon and Sarah (and Rob)!!! Avec grand plaisir, Amara 3744 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 6:01pm Subject: dhamma study group Dear Friends, I am new to your group. Jon suggested that I might like to send you a few words about myself, so I am doing so. I was born and brought up in New York, came to live in Israel in 1966, discovered Buddhist practice three years ago and have been involved with it since. The “flavor” of my practice is Zen, especially as transmitted by Thich Nhat Hanh, who spent a week in Israel in 1997. Unfortunately, there are no Buddhist monks or nuns living in Israel. I have read a lot about the practice and the philosophy in the past three years, especially through Internet. I have found there many insightful teachers from the Therevada, and other, traditions. I sit – both by myself and with a TNH “sangha” here that has weekly meetings, and follow, to the best of my changing ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my aversion. Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above is hurtful to anyone. With boundless love to all of you and all beings, Yacov 3745 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:28pm Subject: Re: welcome Dear Yakov, Welcome to the group from a fellow 'landsman'. I too am from NY, but the story of how I came to dhamma and to Thailand 35 years ago, is too long to relate here. Have not written to the group for quite a while, although I eagerly follow the discussions in each digest and attend weekly dhamma talks in English with Achaan Suchin at the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation here in Bkk. Please, please do not let the daunting nit picking over the meaning of Pali terms and other aspects of the discussions put you off. The more one reads dhamma, listens to dhamma talks, involves oneself in dhamma discussions, the more chances there are for conditions to arise so that sati (awareness) and panna (wisdom, deep understanding) may arise as well. You never know when something said by someone in group will condition the arising of panna for you and increase your understanding of anatta (no self, no soul), anicca (impermanence) and dukkha (unsatisfactoryness), the 3 main characteristics of physical and mental realities. So, please be patient with all the discussions, the frequent use of Pali, and please ask questions whenever the need arises. We are all here to help each other in that last regard. Looking forward to reading more from you. With metta, Betty 3746 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Formal Sitting Bruce > thanks for your kind reading of my post -- you > considered my words very > considerately, and this i appreciate....i guess my > original post was only > half tongue-in-cheek then, and ends up providing > evidence that i'm s l > o w l y understanding, whether i want to or > not? yikes! True awareness or understanding is something that develops very slowly. Consider this passage from Samyutta Nikaya III 101(9) ‘The Adze Handle’, which I have had many an occasion to remind myself of - "When, Bhikkhus, a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away. So too, Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such knowledge occurs to him: ‘So much of my taints has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier,’ yet when they are worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that they have been worn away." The message here is that it takes time, a long time. For me, the time span over which any progress can be seen is years rather than days, weeks or months. But this is not a concern, since the idea is to get it right. If the right cause is being developed, the right result will follow. From the same sutta - "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu dwells devoted to development, even though no such wish as this might arise in him: ‘Oh, that my mind might be liberated from the taints by non-clinging!’ yet his mind is liberated from the taints by non-clinging. For what reason? It should be said: because of development. Because of developing what? Because of developing [the 37 requisites of enlightenment]. …" This person is contrasted with the one who wants progress but does not correctly understand the practice - "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu does not dwell devoted to development, even though such a wish as this might arise in him: ‘Oh, that my mind might be liberated from the taints by non-clinging!’ yet his mind is not liberated from the taints by non-clinging. For what reason? It should be said: because of non-development. Because of not developing what? Because of not developing [the 37 requisites of enlightenment]. …" 3747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly > commented on whether > dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. (I pass on this one – I'm not sure) > But he did emphasize > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > experience, and not by > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > (which is often brought in > to serve to justify our grasping and > predispositions). Agreed Many observers, > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand > dhammas as experiential, > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being > some hidden somethings > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > themselves. They understand > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and > softmess), movement, > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, > water - all these are > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > not to be found somewhere > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > element of experience. To say both that only the hardness that is experienced can be known, and that hardness arises whether or not it is being experienced, is not at all contradictory, I think? > My point was simply that that which is known > in any way is > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in > principle, > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > object of one of the six > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) > is pragmatically and > epistemologically nonexistent. I’m not sure what you mean by this but since, at the very best, the Buddha was silent on the point, it might be unwise to exclude the possibility that paramatha dhammas do in fact arise absent our experience of them. Since most of the old texts seem to assume this is so, I am prepared to take it a working hypothesis (as Mike would say). Consider this example. As you read this, the paramattha dhammas that are visible object and seeing consciousness arise. According to the teachings, these realities arise because of various conditions - the consciousness that is seeing is conditioned by kamma of the past, the visible object is conditioned by temperature. It seems quite reasonable to assume that for other beings, similar realities are arising, likewise conditioned, despite that fact that it is not we who is experiencing those realities. As I have said, strictly speaking this is all ‘working hypothesis’, but not too difficult to contemplate, I would have thought. Jon 3748 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 10:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome Hi, Des, and welcome to the list from me --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > I know I am not. I am naught. > with metta, > des Feel free to tell us a little about yourself and your dhamma background sometime (not obligatory, of course). Jon 3749 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 2:19am Subject: Re: dhamma study group Dear Yakov, --- <> wrote: I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my aversion. Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above is hurtful to anyone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On the contrary--I found your remarks insightful and exemplary of right speech. "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill- spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." -- AN V.198 I've had (and still have) similar reactions to the Pali and the hair- splitting on the list, though I've gradually come to realize more the value of these things. The Buddha once said that understanding the Dhamma was more difficult than splitting a hair with a hair (I tried in vain to find the discourse this comes from). He also said, "Deep, Vaccha, is this phenomenon, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn72.html So, though I may wish for a simple and uncomplicated way to right understanding (and liberation)--as I once thought zazen to be--I don't think that a careful reading of the Buddha's teachings reveals such a way. For right understanding (of the present moment) to arise, it is necessary for understanding of the all the different possible characteristics of the present moment to be accumulated first. For example, if no one had ever told you that clinging tends to arise following contact with a pleasant object, and that that clinging is unwholesome, how could you be aware of these characteristics when clinging arises in the present moment? And without this awareness, how can wisdom develop? We all come into the Buddhadhamma by way of words. That being the case, isn't it important to investigate the meaning of these words very carefully? The authors of the Abhidhamma (by the way, I know almost nothing of Abhidhamma myself) did a lot of this for us--with a lot of Pali and a lot of hair-splitting. I know the aversion you mentioned very well--I experience it every day. I'm very glad for you that you recognized it as such and had accumulated sufficient understanding of the nature of aversion to see in this an opportunity for development. Mazel tov! Again, welcome to the group, from its least member, mike p.s. Please remember that it isn't 'your' aversion, or 'mine'--just aversion. 3750 From: Date: Sun Mar 4, 2001 9:44pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 3/4/01 9:31:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Howard > > > I do not believe that the Buddha explicitly > > commented on whether > > dhammas are things that are or are not experiential. > > (I pass on this one ā€“ I'm not sure) > > > But he did emphasize > > that what is to be known is to be known by direct > > experience, and not by > > reliance on authority, tradition, or even reason > > (which is often brought in > > to serve to justify our grasping and > > predispositions). > > Agreed > > Many observers, > > including Ven. Nyanaponika for example, understand > > dhammas as experiential, > > as having phenomenalistic existence instead of being > > some hidden somethings > > lurking behind experience, but not experiential > > themselves. They understand > > the Buddha's teaching in that light. Hardness (and > > softmess), movement, > > temperature, fluidity/cohesion - earth, air, fire, > > water - all these are > > experiential realities. Hardness, for example, is > > not to be found somewhere > > "out there" in some Platonic heaven. It is an > > element of experience. > > To say both that only the hardness that is experienced > can be known, and that hardness arises whether or not > it is being experienced, is not at all contradictory, > I think? > > > My point was simply that that which is known > > in any way is > > experiential, by definition. Something which is, in > > principle, > > unexperienceable (and I do not mean only as an > > object of one of the six > > senses, because nibbana, itself, is experienceable) > > is pragmatically and > > epistemologically nonexistent. > > Iā€™m not sure what you mean by this but since, at the > very best, the Buddha was silent on the point, it > might be unwise to exclude the possibility that > paramatha dhammas do in fact arise absent our > experience of them. Since most of the old texts seem > to assume this is so, I am prepared to take it a > working hypothesis (as Mike would say). > > Consider this example. As you read this, the > paramattha dhammas that are visible object and seeing > consciousness arise. According to the teachings, > these realities arise because of various conditions - > the consciousness that is seeing is conditioned by > kamma of the past, the visible object is conditioned > by temperature. It seems quite reasonable to assume > that for other beings, similar realities are arising, > likewise conditioned, despite that fact that it is not > we who is experiencing those realities. > > As I have said, strictly speaking this is all ā€˜working > hypothesisā€™, but not too difficult to contemplate, I > would have thought. > > Jon > ================================== Agreed. Certainly the notion of unexperienceable things underlying experiential objects is "not too difficult to contemplate". There may, indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We all are, in fact, quite used to assuming that this is the case. When most people look out the window, for example, they really believe that there is some "external" window (or, at least, externally existing factors which *constitute* the window), and "they" are looking through it. They all assume that there is something beyond the merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, the merely tasted, the merely cognized. In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama Sutta may be of interest. The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata does no conceive of a visible thing as apart from sight; he does not conceive of an unseen; he does not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not conceive about a seer." I quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of this sutta entitled "The Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the Buddha's advice to Bahiya quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): "Then, Bahiya, thus must you train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the seen; in the heard, just the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the cognized, just the cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in the heard just the heard; in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just the cognized then Bahiya, you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in it. And when, Bahiya, you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'here' nor 'there' nor 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of suffering." I do, indeed, see no contradiction at all in assuming an underlying something beyond experience. There just is, in principle, no way of verifying it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3751 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 4:15am Subject: Pali and Hair-Splitting Yacov & Des, Thanks very much for joining and contributing. Yacov, I really admire your sincere interest in dhamma to study on your own in Israel. Yacov, I think you entered the list at a time when a lot of long pali terms were being used, but I'm very glad you posted your excellent intro rather than run away. Patience is a key factor on this path! I'm keeping this short as I only have a few minutes (will try to say something more tormorrow). One thing though, in addition to the excellent points mentioned by Betty & Mike, if you go to the files section on the homepage and enter the links file, there is a subject "new to the group and new to dhamma'...I know you're not new to dhamma, but for example, the first post there from Bruce to Maggi (who reacted rather like you) gives practical advice on a pali glossary etc. The other messages there give further advice on coping and surviving dsg! (Actually I'd also be interested to hear if it helps to check those particular archive files as this is a new, experimental section). Please continue to give out-spoken, direct comments which are much more helpful to everyone than a rush for the exit! As a maths teacher once told me, if you raise your hand with a question, be sure that many others with the same question will be thanking you! I think this is a very useful thread and hopefully we'll hear more from others like Cybele and Joyce who are probably screaming too! By the way, nothing hurtful at all, quite the reverse! Betty, I'm delighted to hear from you again as you know. Please keep up you encouraging and helpful posts which we all need to hear! So glad you're up-to-date with us. Sarah p.s. Mike had meant to give this new subject heading and asked me to do it for him (which I can only do by sending a message!) Thanks for the prompt, Mike and a well-chosen heading. 3752 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 3:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] dhamma study group Hi Yacov, <> Nice meeting you, Yacov. What are you talking about? You do not need to apologize at all. Different ideas and views are appreciate here. And as Sarah said, outspoken ideas are encouraged. Let me say this way, reality is not in Pali, Thai or English. Even the word Zen is a Pali derivative, we call Jhana in Pali, Chan in Chineses-Pali and then Zen in Japanese-Pali. Paramathadhamma is paramatthadhamma, or I may say reality is reality, it does not change it's property no matter how we call it. We experience reality everyday, we may or may not aware of it. Studying Dhamma will gradually condition understanding Dhamma better. Reality is not in a book or Tipitaka, I mean it's every where, here and now. To me, I feel very thankful to Lord Buddha who gave us a chance to glimpse what he has found. We need to study and communicate and that why language comes in. You do not need to be an expert in Pali and Sanskrit to understand Dhamma but knowing some will be very helpful for us to communicate and discuss with each other, and I hope that will lead to right understanding of Dhamma not just understand the word. I can remember traveling to countries where people do not speak my language was frustrating but after a while I can pick up and then I felt better. Just want to encourage you to hang in there. Num 3753 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:34am Subject: Re: dhamma study group Dear Friend You are correct in your observation. You will rarely come across a group of hair splitting nit pickers such as those who post on this list. It also must be said that you will rarely come across such a group of people who are clearly seriously interested in the BuddhaDharma and its implementation. If you hang about and read you will find that strangely enough you can learn much about the sutras and the Dharma. And if you ask a question there are many here who will assist you with research and information to help you on your way. Of course from time to time you will be chided, goaded, and pointedly directed as is appropriate. I also practice in the Thich Nhat Hanh Tradition here in Sydney Australia. Feel free to mail me 'off list' if you're wanting someone to type to about your tradition. antony Sydney Australia --- <> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am new to your group. Jon suggested that I might like to send you a few > words about myself, so I am doing so. > > I was born and brought up in New York, came to live in Israel in 1966, > discovered Buddhist practice three years ago and have been involved with it > since. > > The "flavor" of my practice is Zen, especially as transmitted by Thich Nhat > Hanh, who spent a week in Israel in 1997. > > Unfortunately, there are no Buddhist monks or nuns living in Israel. I have > read a lot about the practice and the philosophy in the past three years, > especially through Internet. I have found there many insightful teachers > from the Therevada, and other, traditions. I sit – both by myself and with a > TNH "sangha" here that has weekly meetings, and follow, to the best of my > changing ability, the Noble Eightfold Path. > > I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only > about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I > was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the > meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me > that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, > even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially > within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my > aversion. > > Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above > is hurtful to anyone. > > With boundless love to all of you and all beings, > > Yacov 3754 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:00am Subject: Re: dhamma study group > I have not had the opportunity of studying Pali and know, I suppose only > about 30 or 35 words in that language. When I came across your email list I > was overwhelmed: So much Pali, hair splitting, learned discussions of the > meaning of terms, such (to me) strange points of view. It was clear to me > that this was something that I had best stay clear of, it seemed to me, > even, unwholesome. But, I do not like to make distinctions, especially > within the practice, and realize that this is an opportunity to work on my > aversion. > > Thank you all for being there for me. I apologize if anything written above > is hurtful to anyone. Dear Yacov, I think everyone appreciates your frankness and hope you will continue to find the list of some use, even if only to reflect your aversion. The fact that you do not know much Pali might even work in your favor; you would not have preconception of the terms and can start with a clean slate. Dhamma means what really exists, the truth, and the Buddha's teachings, for example. I also rather think you will enjoy studying the truth with us, and am glad you're still there after over a week of splitting and picking and Paliing: I still remember your first post (3633), about the arithmatic and geometric Middle Path, with a smile! Glad to have you (still) with us, (more of your mind twisting humor would be most welcome, too!) Amara > With boundless love to all of you and all beings, The bunch of brahma vihara back at you!!! 3755 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 6:47pm Subject: MahaKassapa Dear Amara & Jim, --- Sarah Procter Abbott > Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, > subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was > known as always being content with little. > > One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS > translation you inspired me to look at, it then says > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > There > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > (dhutavadanam)'. Jim said (off-list): > Regarding your question about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are the five dhutadhammas beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See Vism II.1. The Anguttara commentary has some good explanations. Thanks for this, Jim. What I have found out is that dhutangas literally are 'shaking off (the defilements)'; ascetic or austere practices which MahaKassapa was foremost in. These are of course the strict observances recommended to monks as a help to cultivate contentedness and renuncition, namely fewness of needs (above), contentedness, austerity, detachment, energy and moderation. It also describes the 13 kinds of ascetic practices starting with 'the refuse-rag-wearer's practice. Having got this clarified, I'm now looking forward to linking this thread to the discussion of the 5 reasons for the decline of the dhamma given to MahaKassapa in the other sutta raised by Teng Kee. Sarah Amara, I've changed the subject heading because the diamond sutra got left behind sometime ago... 3756 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 7:45pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa I sent this out a half an hour ago, I think. Hope there won't be duplication and that it doesn't get delayed in the censoring!!! > > Maha Kassapa dwelled in the forest and mountains, > > subsisting solely on alms, wearing rag-robes and was > > known as always being content with little. > > > > One question for you, Jim or anyone: In a PTS > > translation you inspired me to look at, it then says > > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > > There > > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? It > > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief among > > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > > (dhutavadanam)'. > > Jim said (off-list): > > Regarding your question > about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are > the five dhutadhammas > beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See > Vism II.1. The Anguttara > commentary has some good explanations. > > Thanks for this, Jim. > > What I have found out is that dhutangas literally are > 'shaking off (the defilements)'; ascetic or austere > practices which MahaKassapa was foremost in. These are > of course the strict observances recommended to monks > as a help to cultivate contentedness and renuncition, > namely fewness of needs (above), contentedness, > austerity, detachment, energy and moderation. It also > describes the 13 kinds of ascetic practices starting > with 'the refuse-rag-wearer's practice. > > Having got this clarified, I'm now looking forward to > linking this thread to the discussion of the 5 reasons > for the decline of the dhamma given to MahaKassapa in > the other sutta raised by Teng Kee. > > Sarah > > Amara, I've changed the subject heading because the > diamond sutra got left behind sometime ago... > Dear Sarah, You are also leaving me behind on this one, I don't remember that I asked about the dhutanga? But now that you mention the subject and got me started, (which you might regret later!!!) I thought there were 13 of them! Amara 3757 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Dear Amara, --- Amara wrote: > > > > > (v.1087) 'except for the great sage himself I am > > > outstanding in the qualities of shaking-off. > > > There > > > is none like me.' What is this quality I wonder? > It > > > also says in the Ang Nik (i.23) he was chief > among > > > those who upheld the 'minute observances of form > > > (dhutavadanam)'. > > > Dear Sarah, > > You are also leaving me behind on this one, I don't > remember that I > asked about the dhutanga? > > But now that you mention the subject and got me > started, (which you > might regret later!!!) I thought there were 13 of > them! Sorry for any confusion. I had come across this reference above to 'shaking off' and I hadn't been clear what it was. So it was me who asked, not you. Yes, you're right, there are 13 dhutangas for the monks('shakings off' or austere practices), as I mentioned, starting with wearing patched-up robes and ending with sleeping int the sitting position. Actually, apparently, they are never all mentioned together in the same sutta. There's a lot more that could be discussed about their purpose. I'll type them out if anyone wants to see them and doesn't have easy reference to the Vis or a dictionary. The other 5 is another classification beginning with fewness of needs, both under dhutanga. > > Amara > 3759 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 8:50pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa > Yes, you're right, there are 13 dhutangas for the > monks('shakings off' or austere practices), as I > mentioned, starting with wearing patched-up robes and > ending with sleeping int the sitting position. > Actually, apparently, they are never all mentioned > together in the same sutta. There's a lot more that > could be discussed about their purpose. I'll type them > out if anyone wants to see them and doesn't have easy > reference to the Vis or a dictionary. > > The other 5 is another classification beginning with > fewness of needs, both under dhutanga. Dear Sarah, That would make a very nice revision indeed, I have forgotten most of them- not that I plan to take up anything of the like!!! I can't even stand long plane rides, talk about sleeping in a sitting position!!! Thanks in advance and looking forward to reading, Amara 3760 From: Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Hello All: Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any particular religion really. Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) Derick 3761 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa From what I have read, I understand that the mahayanists believe that Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the caves in Asia, waiting for Maitreya Buddha to come. Can anyone substantiate this belief? With metta, des 3762 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:51pm Subject: Re: Hello --- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE wrote: > All: > > Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in > Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this > institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been > buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any > particular religion really. > > Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of > the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the > introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight > and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was > blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of > further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada > buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. > > I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... > Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social > skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) > > > Derick Hi! Derick, Welcome to the group!!! Thank you for the great introduction, great to 'meet' you! We love frank discussions here and lots of different points of view, looking forward to hearing some more of yours! A fellow member of the group, =^_^= Amara 3763 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 11:59pm Subject: Re: MahaKassapa --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > From what I have read, I understand that the mahayanists believe that > Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the caves in Asia, waiting for > Maitreya Buddha to come. > Can anyone substantiate this belief? > With metta, > des Dear Des, From my own understanding, he attained parinibbana at age 150 or thereabouts (subject ot verification in the texts) and according to some accounts the mountains hid his resting place which will only open again when the Buddha Metteya will be the person who performs the cremation. Maybe Sarah can tell us more what it says in the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (is this the correct title?), Amara 3764 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 0:18am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Hello Hi Derick, Was wondering when we would see you... Welcome! Metta, Bhante D. 3765 From: Date: Mon Mar 5, 2001 7:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Hi Derick, Nice meeting you. Nice introduction. My name is Num. > > Hello! This is a short introduction. My name is Derick, and I live in > Germany. I am in the US military (I will be... separating soon from this > institution). I am married and have a 4 year old daughter. I have been > buddhist for about 6 years, of my own accord. I wasn't brought up in any > > Then one day... I bought the Evan-Wentz translation of Tibetan Book of > the Dead and a copy of a book called "Brainscapes." Well I read all of the > introductory text to the TBOD pretty meticulously in parallel with a tight > and thorough read of Brainscapes (a book about how the brain works). I was > blown away by the parallels between the two. After a couple of years of > further reading and on and off meditation I became familiar with Theravada > buddhism and I decided I preferred it over other branches. Interesting. Everybody has his/her own unique and different background but we share common interest, I think, in the truth or Dhamma. How do those two books parallel? Could you give a little more detail? > > I'm not the most tactful individual any of you will have ever met... > Don't take it personally, I was raised by anti-social parents so my social > skills are near zero. I try though ..... ;-) > Well, you seem to know yourself, your limitation and care about others' feeling and reaction. That's part of social skill. Where there is the will, there is the way. Welcome to this discussion group. Num 3766 From: m. nease Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 4:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Amara, Kom and Num > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on this > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > and > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > some > days ago?!? That would include me. I wonder if anyone could paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers and the Pali-challenged (like myself)? Thanks. mike 3767 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 6:46am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa Dear Sarah, >Jim said (off-list): >> Regarding your question >about the qualities of shaking off, I think these are >the five dhutadhammas >beginning with fewness of wishes (appicchataa). See >Vism II.1. The Anguttara >commentary has some good explanations. > >Thanks for this, Jim. I ahould have done better! I have found some more passages for these five qualities or states at Vism. II.83-4. The ref. to them at II.1 is a little vague and are not all named there. The Anguttaranikaya com. (AA i 160ff) seems to be similar to what is translated at Vism. II.80ff. Dhuta, dhutavaada, dhutadhamma, & dhutanga are the terms discussed in the Vism. passage and one should be clear about what these terms are referring when using them. The five dhutadhammas are also given at AN V.181 (A iii 219). I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards to SN XVI.13, the Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there is an interesting section on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When scriptural learning is declining, the practice declines: when the practice is declining, attainment declines. When scriptural learning is being fulfilled, individuals holding the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, fulfilling the practice they fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen other similar passages that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural learning) is a condition (paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti is a condition for adhigamo (attainment). Best wishes, Jim A. 3768 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:28am Subject: Masterpiece Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'" http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html Can anyone tell me if there's an origin for this quotation outside the Abhidhamma? Haven't been able to locate it in the Suttanta. Thanks in advance. mike 3769 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 10:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Rob news Hi Robert and group, Congratulations for your wonderful work. Nice to see that we will be soon reading again all your insightful texts. A big welcome for the new members. You've for sure discovered a 'sacred' dhamma place I'm sure this list is one the best ... Metta, Leonardo a very old/new member :-) > --- Sarah and Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Robert would like to announce the setting up of his > > new website "AbhidhammaVipassana". > > > > Visit him at www.abhidhamma.org > > > > Congratulations, Rob! > 3770 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:16am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- <> wrote: > Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > > "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > masterpiece.'" > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html Dear Mike, In the advanced section of , Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part II, Summary of Citta CHAPTER 16 begins with The fifth characteristics of citta is that it is called "citta" because it renders (things) intricate. A passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha says, "Called `citta' because it renders (things) intricate, in what way? Truly, normally nothing in this world is more intricate than paintings. Among his paintings, the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest. An artistic design (citta-sanna) occurs to the painter while painting masterpieces that such pictures should be done in such fashion. All the intricate work that is done, such as drawing, coloring, highlighting and contrasting colors etc. would result from intricate sanna. In the masterpiece a certain intricate rupa would issue from these intricate actions or designs. The rest of the intricate painting would also be finished the way the artist had thought out: this rupa is to be above, this below, this on the sides, then the creation proceeds accordingly. All the intricate arts in the world [result from the fact] that the citta thinks thus. Similarly, the citta that renders intricate is called citta because of its intricate nature and actions, as described above. In addition, citta is said to be even more intricate than designs in paintings because it creates all art according to the citta's desire. This is only a minor detail or the intricacies of paintings. But the intricacy of each person's kamma, done every day, physically, verbally and mentally, as kusala-kamma: dana, sila, or developing bhavana; or as akusala-kamma: panatipata (killing), adinnadana (stealing) etc. would vary greatly, which shows the characteristics of the intricacy of citta. Complex external rupa-dhatu that are intricate by being diverse plants and grains, flowers, leaves of different varieties, by being objects, mountains, rivers are all things resulting from different compositions of earth, water, fire and wind, with the characteristics of softness, hardness, tension and motion, flowing or adhesion of different levels, so that they appear as distinct intricate objects. But what is more intricate than external rupa-dhatu is the citta because citta is the reality that renders things intricate. (End Quote) Amara 3771 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Masterpiece Hi Mike, >Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > >"Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the >'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first >book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > >"...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of >painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed >by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that >masterpiece.'" > >http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html > >Can anyone tell me if there's an origin for this quotation outside >the Abhidhamma? Haven't been able to locate it in the Suttanta. Gaddula Sutta, SN XXII.100 (S ii 151-2). 'Masterpiece' (also show-piece) is the translation of the Pali word 'cara.na'. Best wishes, Jim A. 3772 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:37am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Hi Sarah, I did a search on my Thai Tipitaka CDrom. Here are what I have found. All 13 practices of dhutanga are listed in Vinaya pitaka, book 8, parivara, number 1191, page 438 : Dhutangavagga 6. (this is my own translation, hard for me to translate Thai-Pali into English, so please pardon me) 1. prefer to stay in a forest 2. prefer the alms 3. prefer bangsukula cloth(lit. mean cloth that is dirty with dust, or mean a cloth that uses to wrap a corpse). 4. prefer to stay under a tree 5. prefer graveyard 6. prefer to stay outdoor 7. prefer 3 pieces of rope 8. prefer to walk in line??? 9. prefer to sit 10. prefer whatever seat available? 11. prefer to eat at one seat 12. prefer not to have offering food which comes after? 13. prefer to eat only whatever in the alms container (bhata) There is also in Chinna-sutta, samyutta nikaya, nithana-vagga, number 477, page 224. Lord Buddha asked Pramahakassapa why he kept on with his dhutanga by wearing old and heavy bangsukula cloth. The Buddha asked him to come back and stay with him, giving up alms and accepting the food that offered by the householder, b/c he was getting old and weak. Pramahakassapa answered lord Buddha with his praise and fruit of Dhutanga. The Buddha then allowed him to continue with his dhutanga. I did not find when and how he passed away. Well, please look in the original Tipitaka for clearer term and explanation. Num 3773 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:44am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Hi, Add. to my previous mail. I mean to say 3 pieces of robe, not rope. Num 3774 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:00pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Mike, I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little more. What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we know all the details? May I start by quoting a neat definition in Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering in others. Its function is not being able to bear others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow. It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some teachings tell us that 'insight must be experienced with compassion'. In fact as I replied and I believe the others confirmed in their research, according to the Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do not arise at each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing or visible object at this moment, there is no compassion.' So why does this matter, why would we check these details and other details and what does this have to do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, often with very deprived individuals and I would have said that compassion was one of my strengths. When I started to study a little of the teachings, this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I really questioned the point of studying the texts when I could be out there helping. However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was making more and more sense that in fact there was no good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self were different mental and physical phenomena. Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the wholesome moments were very few and far between. The perspective was becoming more realistic and less idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment to what was seen and heard. Having read and heard the details, it became clearer that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When a little understanding began to develop, to know any reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, there was no compassion at that time. Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little about the details, hearing and considering, the walls of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. It became more and more apparent that this pretty compassionate person does not exist. No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. Compassion is a mental state which only arises under very specific conditions and then falls away immediately. Like all other mental states, it is inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self again. Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this moment are merely these different mental and physical phenomena, so we know from this experience that this is how it must be for others too, even though we don't directly experience the other's compassion, for example. Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were quite unplanned when I started with the definition. The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to suit every taste... Sarah --- "m. nease" wrote: > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on > this > > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > > and > > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > > some > > days ago?!? > > That would include me. I wonder if anyone could > paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers > and > the Pali-challenged (like myself)? > > Thanks. > > mike > > 3775 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 2:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion It's lovely, Sarah, Amara > I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role > in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little > more. > > What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we > know all the details? > > May I start by quoting a neat definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow. > > It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some > teachings tell us that 'insight must be > experienced with compassion'. > > In fact as I replied and I believe the others > confirmed in their research, according to the > Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do > not arise at > each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises > with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing > or visible object at this moment, there is no > compassion.' > > So why does this matter, why would we check these > details and other details and what does this have to > do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? > > Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I > thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of > heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, > often with very deprived individuals and I would have > said that compassion was one of my strengths. > > When I started to study a little of the teachings, > this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, > sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I > was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I > really questioned the point of studying the texts when > I could be out there helping. > > However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina > and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was > making more and more sense that in fact there was no > good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self > were different mental and physical phenomena. > > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. > > No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example. > > Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were > quite unplanned when I started with the definition. > The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be > crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I > love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a > sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to > suit every taste... > > Sarah > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > --- > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > Amara, Kom and Num > > > > > > Now that you seeem to have reached 'closure' on > > this > > > one, would anyone care to summarise the discussion > > > and > > > its outcome, for those of us who lost the thread > > > some > > > days ago?!? > > > > That would include me. I wonder if anyone could > > paraphrase this summary in English, for newcomers > > and > > the Pali-challenged (like myself)? > > > > Thanks. > > > > mike 3776 From: Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 3:41pm Subject: breathing meditation Rob: I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is *wrong*. I have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound like that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": =================================== Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices such as anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they are important? Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that breath is only rupa. ===================================== It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other people feel the same way. Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with mindfulness have been away from the pillow. Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, those emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we recall those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over again. When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and equanimity, we are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled when we really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings of calm and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, because we have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The more refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ it throughout our daily life. Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... Derick 3777 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 3:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: MahaKassapa Dear Des & Amara, just time for this easy one (yes, PDPN) before my students arrive. Kassapa lived to be old as discussed. I don't know about 150, but he had not lain on a bed for one hundred and twenty years amd was this age at the time of the First Recital (Sam Nik com). According to a footnote in PDPN: 'According to northern sources, Kassapa did not die; he dwells in the Kukkutagiri mountains, wrapt in samadhi, awaiting the arrival of metteyya Buddha.' just as Des said.....interesting idea! Sarah --- Amara wrote: > --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > > From what I have read, I understand that the > mahayanists believe > that > > Mahakasapa is still alive, dwelling in one of the > caves in Asia, > waiting for > > Maitreya Buddha to come. > > Can anyone substantiate this belief? > > With metta, > > des > > > Dear Des, > > From my own understanding, he attained parinibbana > at age 150 or > thereabouts (subject ot verification in the texts) > and according to > some accounts the mountains hid his resting place > which will only open > again when the Buddha Metteya will be the person who > performs the > cremation. Maybe Sarah can tell us more what it > says in the > Dictionary of Pali Proper Names (is this the correct > title?), > > Amara > 3778 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 8:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Derick, Sounds like you come with a warning!!! That's fine (the tact part i mean). We all have different styles and some may say that others of us could do with a little more (right Joyce?). Seriously, It's great that you've found us and this is just what we appreciate: a grand entrance with a neat intro....very interesting.. I've just glanced at your next meaty post and look forward to your participation very much.... Best wishes, Sarah Howard, I'm not sure if I responded after reading your intro more carefully....fascinating accumulations even as a child....thank you so much and I'm enjoying your posts very much.- 3779 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 9:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: dhamma study group hi Antony, --- wrote: > Dear Friend > > You are correct in your observation. You will rarely > come across a > group of hair splitting nit pickers such as those > who post on this > list. > I love it! Look forward to when we get together for the dsg nit-pickers' conference Down Under soon....If there are any othe Down under lurkers who'll be in Sydney just before Easter, pls let me know off-list. (Btw, Jon is from Oz too..) > It also must be said that you will rarely come > across such a group of > people who are clearly seriously interested in the > BuddhaDharma and > its implementation. Thanks to people like yourself! > > If you hang about and read you will find that > strangely enough you > can learn much about the sutras and the Dharma. And > if you ask a > question there are many here who will assist you > with research and > information to help you on your way. well, we all help each other here, a growing family, so not too strange I hope! > > Of course from time to time you will be chided, > goaded, and pointedly > directed as is appropriate. If I wasn't so tired, I'd look out the 'good friend' definition again...that Mike posted before. This is a super post, Antony....great style! I've also really enjoyed the other very helpful posts that have been written in reply to Yacov. Thanks Yacov for encouraging them all. Keep raising basic issues. > > I also practice in the Thich Nhat Hanh Tradition > here in Sydney > Australia. Feel free to mail me 'off list' if you're > wanting someone > to type to about your tradition. Just a question as I really know nothing much at all about NHT....do you see it as something separate from your dhamma studies or both as part and parcel of the same 'practice'? It would be interesting to hear what you and Yacov think/find. Sarah 3781 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 6:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Hello Hi, Sarah - > Howard, I'm not sure if I responded after reading your > intro more carefully....fascinating accumulations even > as a child....thank you so much and I'm enjoying your > posts very much.- > =============================== Thank you, Sarah. Quite nice of you to say this. It happens that I'm in the process of thinking over how to respond to your recent post about compassion in such a way that you won't cease enjoying my posts! ;-)) I do have some real reservations about what you write there. I think I may attempt a reply right now. But before I do, let me apologize in advance should I come across too strongly. I'll try to be moderate. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3783 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:28pm Subject: Re: breathing meditation --- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE CSS/SCIE wrote: > Rob: > > I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is *wrong*. I > have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound like > that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": > > =================================== > Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices such as > anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they are > important? > > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other > people feel the same way. > > Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. > > Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, those > emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we recall > those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over again. > When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and equanimity, we > are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled when we > really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings of calm > and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, because we > have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The more > refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ it > throughout our daily life. > > Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... > > Derick Dear Derick, I hesitate to comment on this because of all the 90+ members in this group I am probably the only one who has never practiced any formal meditation, I only ever studied the present moment and whatever concentration I experience are from the steadfastness of awareness of the realities experienced at the instant. But perhaps I could first ask you to consider why we study and what panna knows? For myself I study to know realities as they really are, what I had never known before I began to seriously tried to understand the Buddha's teachings. I learned that what I considered as myself ian't really continuous consciousness and body but different combitnations of nama (element of intelligence/consciousness) and rupa (all other elements including a dead person, space and energy). No self there at all for me or for anyone else. Yet this composed reality of sankhara, produced by kamma or deeds accumulated through innumerable lifetimes to experience other vipaka or result of kamma, some good, some bad, some neutral, through the dvara or senses and the mind, is not really under my control, or I would change many things about it, for example not ever get hungry or sleepy or feel any kind of pain, or not to grow old. But from my birth certainly to my death, everything happens because of conditions, over and over because since we are living and accumulating more actions and therefore more vipaka, samsara stretches on and on, never ending, each birth so special and unique, for the zillionth time. Before the Buddha's time, people also tried to stop coming back to be, and being so fed up with being slaves to their senses, to lobha, dosa and moha; they would try to stop the attachments they have to the sensations and emotions they derived from the senses. They found that concentration of a single neutral object would shut out the senses if they did it correctly. There were nearly impossible conditions to fulfill to practice correctly and to recognize the right signs or wrong signs of the highly refined state of citta, exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. You have to live in the right place, wear the right clothing, eat the right food, and know how to meditate and what to meditate on, otherwise the jhana would not arise or the wrong and dangerous ones. For details read the chapter on Samadhi Development, Part VII, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section, They also found that the right samadhi and attainment would enable to develop supernatural powers, as long as there are conditions for the jhana to arise, and if it arises at the moment of their deaths they would become a brahma with such long lifespans that they forget about death and rebirth. But after an endless time, the jhana ceases to bring results, and they are back at square one. Over and over, and when they did not practice correctly or not develop kusala but lived on accumulated good deeds giving results led on each day by lobha, dosa and moha, they could end up in the lower realms full of suffering. With the enlightenment of the Buddha came the knowledge of anatta, selflessness, that what we take for an entity is not just a soul and a body but that even the mind is composed of the citta, the dhatu or element that knows or experiences, and the cetasika or the nama that performs all other duties such as remember, think, like, dislike, study, pay attention, understand things as they really are. The latter, when developed to very high degrees, can eliminate kilesa or lobha, dosa and moha completely, level by level. The nama arise one citta (and its accompanying cetasika) at a time, at the speed of 17 times that of the fastest rupa (even light is only rupa). Which is why, the fastest machine being only rupa, the speed of nama could never really be measured, as it doesn't have any shape or form in the least. This speed hides the fact that everything is composed of different realities arising from conditions and that in order to prove this one should study the moment that realities appear around us: right now what we take for a computer screen is before us, but how does it really appear? If we close our eyes, do visible objects appear? If we do not touch the mouse, do we really know it's not some super hologram? Have you ever seen something and touched it to find that the touch is different than you thought it would be? We have memories from past experience of the mouse, the screen and we remember them. We make up theories about things around us and correct them again and again, while the Buddha reversed the world of millions of theories and pointed out to us the cause of it all: if there were no nama, no rupa, would there be any experience of anything possible? Is there any way but through the six senses that we can know anything at all? Could we then theorize and calculate without the experiences and their memories? If there were no nama and rupa would we be born? Would we die? But our attachment to these nama and rupa is such that were you to attain parinibbana right this instant, would you not prefer to see your daughter perhaps just once more? Do something else before never ever coming back to be? Few people really desire the ultimate peace, they want to escape from unhappiness, from unpleasantness. Sometimes instead of developing the right understanding to end sufferings, they take the pleasant feelings full of lobha for peace from the usually busy boring bothersome life for kusala citta, for peace. Real peace is the moment the citta is free of lobha, dosa and moha, in other words when it is evolving with dana, sila or bhavana. Which is why if one is not careful one might be developing the cause for akusala vipaka instead of kusala, if one did not study to find out what the citta is, what the cetasika are, what right understanding is, and how to make it arise as well as accumulate it. If we understand that wanting something is lobha, even jhana citta, and that lobha can only bring unhappiness, and when the object of lobha falls away, there is dosa. And worse when jhana citta doesn't arise. With vipassana, knowledge of things as they really are can arise even with those who develop jhana correctly, since they know it is not 'them' doing the practice but a series of citta that arise and fall away like anything else. Even without the jhana, which was the case for most bhikkhus even in the Buddha's time, although all the eminent arahantas did attain jhana as well, there can be steadfast attention to the arammana from the first level of vipassana nana already, increasing in strength with the level of panna, up to the moment that the magga citta arise automatically from highly accumulated panna to experience nibbana as arammana for the first time as the sotapanna. (See the chapter on vipassana in the 'Summary' also.) Along the way the development of panna of things as they really are bring many 'fringe benefits' that could really test the developer, who sometimes take the other kusala happenings for something desirable, thereby setting their own trap to keep them in the samsara of ignorance. Panna knows in order to abandon, not to form more attachments. Which is why we should ask ourselves what our aim is in doing something: to have or to gain something, or to really know them and let panna do its duty of eradicating kilesa when it is strong enough to do so. Now, there are realities presenting themselves to be studied, visible objects are completely different from sound, the objects of different dvara are unique and not interchangeable, and at the moment of studying their characteristics one can see there is no place where there could be the self, in reality. Only when this knowledge is strong and frequent enough would there be the deeper sati where one doesn't think about it but really study their different characteristics more and more, accumulating panna towards the first, most feeble vipassana nana. This has turned out to be an extremely long letter, sorry about that! Derick, you mentioned having awareness in other situations, you see that it really is not within anyone's control, and that once the conditions are right, it can arise anywhere, any time. Maybe you would care to tell us about it? Amara 3784 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:28pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece The way I understand it, intuitively plus intellectually, is that: "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an ice cream without flavor; it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta that "flavors" the citta. Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important to know the difference. Humbly, with metta, des >From: "Amara" >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 03:16:12 -0000 > >--- <> wrote: > > Nina van Gorkom in Abhidhamma in Daily Life: > > > > "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the > > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > > masterpiece.'" > > > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html > > >Dear Mike, > >In the advanced section of , >Summary of Paramatthadhamma Part II, Summary of Citta CHAPTER 16 >begins with > > The fifth characteristics of citta is that it is called "citta" >because it renders (things) intricate. > > A passage in the Atthasalini Atthakatha says, "Called `citta' because >it renders (things) intricate, in what way? Truly, normally nothing >in this world is more intricate than paintings. Among his paintings, >the painter's masterpiece is more artistic than the rest. An artistic >design (citta-sanna) occurs to the painter while painting masterpieces >that such pictures should be done in such fashion. All the intricate >work that is done, such as drawing, coloring, highlighting and >contrasting colors etc. would result from intricate sanna. In the >masterpiece a certain intricate rupa would issue from these intricate >actions or designs. The rest of the intricate painting would also be >finished the way the artist had thought out: this rupa is to be above, >this below, this on the sides, then the creation proceeds accordingly. > All the intricate arts in the world [result from the fact] that the >citta thinks thus. Similarly, the citta that renders intricate is >called citta because of its intricate nature and actions, as described >above. > > In addition, citta is said to be even more intricate than designs in >paintings because it creates all art according to the citta's desire. > > This is only a minor detail or the intricacies of paintings. But the >intricacy of each person's kamma, done every day, physically, verbally >and mentally, as kusala-kamma: dana, sila, or developing bhavana; or >as akusala-kamma: panatipata (killing), adinnadana (stealing) etc. >would vary greatly, which shows the characteristics of the intricacy >of citta. Complex external rupa-dhatu that are intricate by being >diverse plants and grains, flowers, leaves of different varieties, by >being objects, mountains, rivers are all things resulting from >different compositions of earth, water, fire and wind, with the >characteristics of softness, hardness, tension and motion, flowing or >adhesion of different levels, so that they appear as distinct >intricate objects. But what is more intricate than external >rupa-dhatu is the citta because citta is the reality that renders >things intricate. > >(End Quote) > >Amara > 3785 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 7:05pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Sarah - > Dear Mike, > > I can't say I'll do any better, but as I played a role > in raising the issue, maybe I'll try to say a little > more. > > What is compassion (karuna) and who cares whether we > know all the details? > > May I start by quoting a neat definition in > Abhidamatha Sangaha (11,7): > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a neat definition. It seems pretty much right on target. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > It was correctly pointed out by Joyce that some > teachings tell us that 'insight must be > experienced with compassion'. > > In fact as I replied and I believe the others > confirmed in their research, according to the > Tipitaka, 'The 4 Brahma viharas (heavenly abodes) do > not arise at > each moment of panna (insight). Compassion only arises > with beings as object. If there is awareness of seeing > or visible object at this moment, there is no > compassion.' > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This certainly seems reasonable. Compassion isn't directed at any conventional objects except sentient beings. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > So why does this matter, why would we check these > details and other details and what does this have to > do with the heart of compassion? Who cares? > > Before I started studying the Buddha's teachings, I > thought that I was rather a kind person with a lot of > heart. I worked as a psychologist and social worker, > often with very deprived individuals and I would have > said that compassion was one of my strengths. > > When I started to study a little of the teachings, > this seemed the 'easy' one for me. I remember, > sometime later when I was travelling in SE Asia and I > was so concerned about the Vietnamese refugees I > really questioned the point of studying the texts when > I could be out there helping. > > However, with the help of Khun Sujin, the texts, Nina > and Abhidhamma in Daily Life in particular, it was > making more and more sense that in fact there was no > good, kind person. What was taken for this caring self > were different mental and physical phenomena. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as in other contexts as well, any talk of "persons" is just conventional shorthand. But such shorthand is useful abbreviation so long as one doesn't get caught in it. There *are* good, kind persons, there are others who are less so, and there are still others who are just the opposite. The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to which compassion arises, and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. Some people care little for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. Still others act consistently and automatically to ease the way for others. No doubt this can be understood in terms of differences in the character of the flow of dhammas in different kammic streams, but it also can be understood conventionally. While it is useful to examine the individual trees, it helps to also see the forest. As I recall reading, there were contemporaries of the Buddha who had the attitude that putting a sword through a person would be no fault, as it would just be mere matter passing through mere matter. Something important (and real) is lost there. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. I think this is a very valuable observation you made for yourself, and a very valuable observation you make right now for us. What passes as compassion is often a (non-simultaneous) mix of compassion, attachment, aversion, sorrow, etc. Careful examination of what actually arises in us is enormously important and illuminating. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. > > No one cares or is compassionate even for a moment. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't understand your meaning here. Compassion does arise. In some people it arises almost never. In others it arises frequently, because their mind is so disposed. Cultivation of the Brahmaviharas is intended to foster such a disposition. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Compassion is a mental state which only arises under > very specific conditions and then falls away > immediately. Like all other mental states, it is > inherently unsatisfactory (dukkha) and therefore not > worth clinging to in anyway. When we wish to be a more > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not necessarily. Compassion is useful. It is helpful to people. The true tendency towards compassion is wholesome, and it is reasonable to choose to increase that tendency. Of course it is possible to cling to compassion out of self-interest, out of a desire to see oneself as a "good" person. That is ego, and that is unwholesome. But it need not be that way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just as we see that what we take to be a being at this > moment are merely these different mental and physical > phenomena, so we know from this experience that this > is how it must be for others too, even though we don't > directly experience the other's compassion, for > example. > > Mike, this took a few turns of its own which were > quite unplanned when I started with the definition. > The pali and abhidhamma experts will probably be > crying out for more nitty-gritty now! Personally, I > love the range of styles & voices on the list, like a > sumptuous buffet where you can't expect every dish to > suit every taste... > > Sarah > ==================================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3786 From: Date: Tue Mar 6, 2001 11:27pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breathing meditation Hi Derick and all, Can I have a different opinion? > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that other > people feel the same way. > Well, I just take this with different appreciation. Even though two persons look at the same thing, their perception are different, (you call this projective test, right Sarah??). To me, I feel very thankful to the Buddha for his kindness that he let us know that everybody has different accumulation, different inclination and different predisposition. Like a Thai idiom says, beautiful clothes, do not fit or look good on everyone. I don't think Nina meant to say that most of the people who do breathing meditation, do it wrong. "Gifted," to me, means a person who have some optimal predisposition or accumulation. And I couldn't tell who does or doesn't have it. The Buddha is the one who had that ability. As far as I know, in Tipitaka has mentioned 40 different ways to practice right meditation and I have heard a lot more different styles form experts. I did some sitting breathing meditation. So far, it's good for relaxing. I did not aim for great miracle from doing meditation. To me every moment of ciita (or you may say Dhamma) is a great miracle in itself already. For me, it's not easy to sit still. My attention span is not that long and I always have tremendous energy and always on the go. As I said breathing-meditation has given me a good feeling but I don't think I can keep doing it for a great period of time each day. Just my personal guessing regarding my predisposition. And I would like to add that different 40 arammanas of practicing meditation bring to different levels of jhana. <<>> I don't know what life will be like without memory. As far as I know, 3 basic components of memory are registration, retention and recall. Memory is a very complicated matter, we memorized pannatti as well as paramattha,I think. We not recall everything and at time we build "false memory" as well. I mean to discuss further about sanna cetasika in the near future. I have read that even with jhana you have to be very keen and have a lot of skill and experience with it. As far as I can remember from my reading, jhana is not an easy thing to master. Practice makes perfect. Skill or experience is part of memory. A quote from www.dhammastudy.com, Paramatthadhamma part VII, smatha-bhavana : <<<<<< The citta able to develop samatha-bhavana until it is so peaceful from all akusala-dhamma as to attain arupa-jhana is a powerful citta, with the potential to be trained to achieve specific purposes such as to recall former lives, to will clairvoyance to be able to see things in the distance or hidden, to will extrasensory hearing of sounds near and far, to perform miracles such as to walk on water, to travel underground, to fly through the air, to make things materialize etc. But those who are able to develop each specific supernatural qualities must be superbly proficient in all the kasina and the 8 samapatti (the 4 rupa-jhana according to the catuttha-naya and the 4 arupa-jhana) and must train the citta in the following 14 manners (Visuddhimagga Samadhiniddesa Itthividdhaniddesa): 1. kasinanulomato achieving jhana in the right order of kasina; 2. kasinapatilomato achieving jhana in the reverse order of kasina; 3. kasinanulomapatilomato achieving jhana in the right then the reverse order of kasina; 4. jhananulomato achieving jhana in respective order, from the pathama-jhana to the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana; 5. jhanapatilomato achieving jhana in the reverse order of jhana from the nevasannanasannayatana-jhana to the pathama-jhana; 6. jhananulomapatilomato achieving jhana in the right then the reverse order of jhana; 7. jhananukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of jhana but not those of kasina; 8. kasinukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of kasina but not those of jhana; 9. jhanakasinukkantakato achieving jhana by skipping levels of jhana and those of kasina; 10. ankhasankantito achieving jhana transcending the principal elements of jhana; 11. arammanasankantito achieving jhana transcending arammana; 12. ankharammanasankantito achieving jhana transcending both principal elements of jhana and arammana; 13. ankhavavatthapanato achieving jhana by designating the principal elements of jhana; 14. arammanavavatthapanato achieving jhana by designating the arammana of the specific jhana. Any action or conduct that resembles supernatural qualities is not real when the causes do not qualify for the result. A passage in the Visuddhimagga says that it is not possible for the beginner of samatha-bhavana practice, who has not yet trained the citta in these 14 manners, to accomplish these supernatural powers. >>>>>> You can read it in www.dhammastudy.com, Paramatthadhamma part VII, smatha-bhavana. A lot more detail there. I don't know much about it, so I cannot say much. Good luck. Num 3787 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:40am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des Dear friends, Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there thanks to the cittas. Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. With appreciation, Alex Tran 3788 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 5:35am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion --- Sarah Procter Abbott wrote: > Further more, it was becoming more obvious that the > wholesome moments were very few and far between. The > perspective was becoming more realistic and less > idealistic. Much of what had been taken for the great > compassion was merely a kind of aversion, feeling > sorry about was seen or heard about. Compassion cannot > occur at the same time as any unpleasant feeling. When > there was some genuine wholesome concern, often this > would be followed by attachment too; attachment to the > compassion, attachment to the other being, attachment > to what was seen and heard. > > Having read and heard the details, it became clearer > that they were correct. The sorrow felt for the > refugees had nothinbg to do with compassion. If there > wasn't anyone present in need or if I wasn't thinking > about anyone, again there wasn't any compassion. When > a little understanding began to develop, to know any > reality as it was, rather than as I'd like it to be, > there was no compassion at that time. > > Slowly, S L O W L Y, by reading and studying a little > about the details, hearing and considering, the walls > of the fantasy world I lived in began to break down. > It became more and more apparent that this pretty > compassionate person does not exist. Dear Sarah, How beautiful your analysis of our so-called "compassion". Thank you for your time and explanation. Sincerely, Alex Tran 3789 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:49am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece Hi, Alex (and Desmond) - In a message dated 3/6/01 3:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > --- "Desmond Chiong" > wrote: > > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably > important > > to know the difference. > > Humbly, > > with metta, > > des > > Dear friends, > > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the > cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas > (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in > different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see > cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a > citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there > thanks to the cittas. > > Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. > > With appreciation, > Alex Tran > ==================================== Although on the web site it is said that the cetasikas "experience" the same object as the citta they accompany, I find that an odd way of speaking. It would seem more natural to me to use the phrase "are associated with" rather than "experience". I understand a citta to be a discernment of an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, such as happiness or anger, which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a flavoring may be mixed into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) Two different discernments of "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by the mental concomitants accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be the same, but the total experience in one case will differ from that in the other because of a difference in "flavor". This is how I see it. Possibly, however, this way of seeing the matter may be peculiar to me, and it may be at variance with traditional Abhidhamma. I'll leave that for more knowledgeable folks to decide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3790 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:04am Subject: Defining Tathagata Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of "Tathagata" please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how people define this. Thanks. I am researching this area. Metta, Bhante D. 3791 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 6:17am Subject: Re: Masterpiece Dear Howard, >I understand a citta to be a discernment of > an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, such as happiness or anger, > which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a flavoring may be mixed > into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) A very nice simile. :-))) >Two different discernments of > "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by the mental concomitants > accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be the same, but the total > experience in one case will differ from that in the other because of a > difference in "flavor". Good analogy! However, I still don't see the differences between the cittas and the cetasikas much here. If we like the flavor vanilla for example, lobha will arise. Otherwise, dosa will exist. With different cetasikas (lobha or dosa), a distinctive citta will be there. Again, different cittas rises up because of the compounded cetasikas. Thank you, Howard for the good example. Metta, Alex 3792 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:05am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Dear Amara, Are you the same Amara, that's translating for Sujin. It's nice to chat with you. I congrtulate you on the great work, you, Sujin and Nina are doing, sharing your enlightenment with others. I did not have the good fortune to meet with the buddha in person, but I am fortunate to hear his dharma through the efforts of people like you and your group. With metta, des 3793 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:10am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece I believe, it's 89/121. Humbly, with metta, des >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:40:08 -0000 > >--- "Desmond Chiong" >wrote: > > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably >important > > to know the difference. > > Humbly, > > with metta, > > des > > Dear friends, > > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the >cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas >(52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in >different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see >cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a >citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there >thanks to the cittas. > > Thank you, Des, for raising this point up. > >With appreciation, >Alex Tran > 3794 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:50am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] breathing meditation Derick Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for the interesting post. > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because > in the Buddha's time > there were people who were able to concentrate on > the breath. This is a very > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most > difficult to be aware of > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath > what is something else, air > produced by other factors, not breath. The > commentary to the Kindred sayings > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the > great disciples can practice > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach > that everyone should > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the > accumulations to do so, > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who > is breathing, and that > breath is only rupa. > ===================================== > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of > people who currently > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are > doing so in err; that > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. Nina is simply quoting the commentary. What that says is that only the 'gifted' can practise it correctly. I think this is something worth keeping in mind. > This can not be so, > because hundreds of millions of people for two > millenia have employed it > with great success in their spiritual life. There are lots of practices that can bring 'success in spiritual life' to people. Among these could be included prayer, fasting and sacrifice. But these are not things taught by the Buddha, and they lead to 'spiritual' goals that are anitpathetic to dhamma. > Perhaps, I shouldn't speak for > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has > made in my life and I know > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I > *think* that other > people feel the same way. > > Of course, I also know that all of my more > interesting moments with > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. A question for you, Derick. As a practitioner of breath meditation, have you considered the difference between breath as an object of samatha (concentration) and breath as an object of vipassana (understanding)? This is something that needs to be understood from the outset. Looking forward to more discusion on this subject. Jon 3795 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 10:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Apology Mike Your speech is so exemplary that what to you seems like rudeness and tactlessness is pretty much ordinary language for the rest of us. The content was fine and, as far as i'm concerned, appropriate. No apology needed. JOn --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear All, > > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > wrote: > > Please excuse the carelessness, rudeness and > tactlessness of my last post. I meant no offense to > anyone, just a typical expression of my own > ignorance > and aversion. > > mike > 3796 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:06am Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > The way I understand it, intuitively plus intellectually, is that: > "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an ice cream without flavor; > it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta that "flavors" the citta. > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des Dear Des, There is another comparison that I like, which compares the citta to a clean clear mirror that reflects all that passes before it. Which is why, for the arahanta for example, with all the akusala cetasika gone completely, it must be a very beautiful reality indeed! (On the other hand, the akusala would be so dark and dirty!!!) I think it is of some importance, as each level of attainment would get rid of a certain amount of akusala cetasika or cut down their strength permanently, until at the level of the arahanta, all akusala cetasika is completely eradicated. At that moment there are only the universal ones and the kusala ones left, until the moment of parinibbana, when all would be permanently extinguished. But I also love your yummy model! Amara 3797 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:28am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to which compassion arises, > and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. Some people care little > for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. Still others act > consistently and automatically to ease the way for others. No doubt this can > be understood in terms of differences in the character of the flow of dhammas > in different kammic streams, but it also can be understood conventionally. > While it is useful to examine the individual trees, it helps to also see the > forest. As I recall reading, there were contemporaries of the Buddha who had > the attitude that putting a sword through a person would be no fault, as it > would just be mere matter passing through mere matter. Dear Howard, May I add my understandings on the subject on some details? We all live in the conventional world, even the Buddha, though he probably had the most awareness of realities ever achieved in alternation with the bhavanga. Which is what is added to the normal person's memory as well as to panna once there is knowledge of things as they really are, although they do not replace older memories: once an arahanta, one does not forget who were one's parents. How else could the Buddha recognize to call his disciples by name? Or teach them, using conventional terms, which is what language consists of? Besides, putting a sword through someone is akusala citta and awareness never arises with akusala citta even when it can arise without panna when it is still feeble and just doing its duty of accompanying any kusala citta in its duty, as a kusala satarana cetasika. Both sati (awareness) and panna add to what is already there and in panna's case, once strong enough, empowers it to eliminate akusala. > > Compassion: 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > > sorrow. By the way I still think that the real act of karuna is assistence, not just the conventional 'feel sorry or emapthy for' something, as specified in the end of the expalanation above: 'it succeeds when it causes cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces sorrow.' Which is why karuna is much harder than metta to practice to my mind: we can have metta (friendship) for anyone or being we meet, but karuna can happen only when there is opportunity in 'promoting the removal of suffering in others' according to Sarah's quote. Therefore if everyone around you is healthy and happy, as in the heavenly planes, for example, it would be hard for karuna to arise. Many tend to confuse the feeling of dosa (unpleasant feeling) at other's sufferings for metta and karuna, as is shown in the 'near enemies' of the brahma vihara which Jonathan posted a long time ago, I think. (If I remember correctly the near enemy of metta is lobha, and for karuna is dosa, for example). I would also like to share a thought about the brahma vihara, which just occurred: it would seem that the order of the four kusala citta are not haphazard: metta is the one that could arise most frequently or easily, karuna next, then in our selfish world, mudita, and then least frequent, and for me personally the hardest, upekkha towards others sufferings, when we could not help, or, when having done our best to help, nothing works. I guess we must remember that each has their own kamma and vipaka, and even the Buddha could not help everyone, otherwise he would have made us all arahanta without having to study! Which is why with all the powers he had he still had respect for the dhamma, the' abhidhamma', the 'paramatthadhamma': realities that can be studied and proven, but never changed, even when they can be eradicated completely. Amara 3798 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:53am Subject: Re: Masterpiece > Yes, I'd like to be able to distinguish the citta from the > cetasikas. After studying the cittas (89/129) and the cetasikas > (52), I feel that when various cetasikas are put together in > different ways, we have our distintive cittas. I still can't see > cittas as cittas, even though intellectually, I understand that a > citta always exists because of the cetasikas, and cetasikas are there > thanks to the cittas. Dear Alex, You are right, they are in fact inseparable and never arise one without the other, and one can never (except for the Buddha perhaps) experience them individually, even though their characteristics sometimes become hard to miss, like extreme anger. Which is why it is such a marvel that instead of some practice to try to control the citta the Buddha taught us how to develop one of the cetasika themselves to eradicate all the bad ones, what could be as fast as the cetasika except another cetasika, what could get rid of the bad ones but a really strong good one, with the help of all the other good ones? But without the knowledge of what he taught about the citta not being a continuous soul, about what kilesa is and how many degrees of them lay deep down and without apparent harm until the conditions are right for them to flair up again, and especially how to get rid of them developing what tools, no human brain could dream this up. Only the Buddha could become enlightened about how sati could gather knowledge about realities and build up panna, another cetasika, as well as strenghten all the kusala cetasika to the point where panna eradicated all evil. Loved all your recent posts, by the way, Alex! Anumodana, =^_^= Amara 3799 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 11:59am Subject: Re: Defining Tathagata --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of "Tathagata" > please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how people > define this. Venerable sir, Jim will probably give you the best and most thorough answer, but from my own understandings it means the one who has taken that path, or the one who has gone that way. I think it is a beautiful and rather humble way of referring to the path taken by all the Buddha before him even though it is through his rediscovery of this path that has led millions to absolute peace also, and is still leading us as well as will continue to, according to individual accumulations. I was thinking of you when we started the subject of the brahma vihara, sir. I felt that the articles you posted for us earlier indicated that you took great interest in the deterioration of human society. Would you please share your views about the brahma vihara and their development with us? Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3800 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 0:03pm Subject: Re: breathing meditation > Are you the same Amara, that's translating for Sujin. > It's nice to chat with you. > I congrtulate you on the great work, you, Sujin and Nina are doing, sharing > your enlightenment with others. > I did not have the good fortune to meet with the buddha in person, but I am > fortunate to hear his dharma through the efforts of people like you and your > group. Dear Des, What a very kind comment, (except in my case the enlightenment part!) I'm glad to share what I am able and am very happy to be studying with all my friends! Anumodana with all who study, Amara 3801 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:17pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece Yes, you're right. There are 89/121 cittas. Thank you for the correction. Metta, Alex --- "Desmond Chiong" wrote: > I believe, it's 89/121. > Humbly, > with metta, > des > 3802 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:24pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Amara" wrote: > There is another comparison that I like, which compares the citta to a > clean clear mirror that reflects all that passes before it. Dear Amara, Thank you for this comparison. It makes sense. This "mirror" citta rises and falls every moment. It's not permanent, therefore, it's not the "Buddha citta" concept in Mahayana Buddhism. Anumodana to your quick and clear example, Alex Tran 3803 From: <> Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 2:34pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece --- "Amara" wrote: > Dear Amara, >Which is why it is > such a marvel that instead of some practice to try to control the > citta the Buddha taught us how to develop one of the cetasika > themselves to eradicate all the bad ones, what could be as fast as the > cetasika except another cetasika, what could get rid of the bad ones > but a really strong good one, with the help of all the other good > ones? Ah, wonderful. Thank you for sharing this insight. >But without the knowledge of what he taught about the citta not > being a continuous soul, about what kilesa is and how many degrees of > them lay deep down and without apparent harm until the conditions are > right for them to flair up again, and especially how to get rid of > them developing what tools, no human brain could dream this up. Sadhu... > Only > the Buddha could become enlightened about how sati could gather > knowledge about realities and build up panna, another cetasika, as > well as strenghten all the kusala cetasika to the point where panna > eradicated all evil. Sadhu again ... > Loved all your recent posts, by the way, Alex! Anumodana, Thank you. I've learned quite a bit from the wonderful posts in this list. Thank you all. > =^_^= > Amara =^_^= Alex 3804 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 9:35am Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain? Hi all, I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp about pain. In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological phenomena that bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. thirst 5. sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. watchfulness for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness for dhamma that condition next existence. We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : <<>> My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are in pain, we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain. Let see, let me ask the questions this way. 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa? ( e.g. visual object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot it can be painful like when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too cold it's pain, like when I walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter b/c the boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of painful as well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, dukkha-vedana or domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then usually do sth to get rid of the pain. Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in nature, so it's a result of previous kamma. So my second questions is when I go a dentist or doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb medication to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't think so. There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to appreciate pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is usually those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they have minor physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a cut wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some protective property for the body. 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations. He cut us but we did feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep. I think the pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it. How does vithi citta work when we are put to sleep under the medication? Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious. A lot of people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as a lot people in this world are dying from hunger. Good night, hope you guys have no pain. Num 3805 From: Amara Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:07pm Subject: Re: Pain? > I would like to ask couple of questions about basic physiology esp about > pain. Dear Num, An interesting topic pertinent to us all since to have a physical existence means to have pain, except in one of the brahma worlds. Strange that it should be the receptacle of six of the 8 rupas that we can actually experience: cold, heat, softness, hardness, motion and tension. Stranger still the fact that of the vedana that accompanies all citta, namely sukkha, dukkha and indifference, when it comes to the bodysense there is only sukkha or dukkha, even though for the other senses there could be indifference: either you like it or dislike it to a certain degree, no neutral feeling possible. I once asked Tan Ajaan why I don't feel anything towards the touch of my hair, or my clothes, and she said it was because of the force of habit, something one must think about carefully. Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or swellings and tight stretched skin, etc. > In Suttanta pitaka, book 16 , AN, number 49 page 92 : > sarira-ratata-dhamma-sutta mentioned 10 basic physiological phenomena that > bhikku should pay attention to 1. coldness 2. heat 3. hunger 4. thirst 5. > sense of urge (pain or discomfort) for defecation 6. sense of urge (pain or > discomfort) for urination 7. watchfulness for bodily action 8. watchfulness > for speech 9. watchfulness for occupation(ajiva) 10. watchfulness for dhamma > that condition next existence. > > We have discussed about compassion(karuna) as Sarah's post : << 'Karuna' or compassion, has the > characteristic of promoting the removal of suffering > in others. Its function is not being able to bear > others' suffering. It is manifested as non-cruelty. > Its proximate cause is seeing helplessness in those > overwhelmed by suffereing. it succeeds when it causes > cruelty to subside, and it fails when it produces > sorrow.>>> > > My questions are somewhat related to karuna, indirectly. When we are in pain, > we are suffering. I mean at this point physical pain. > > Let see, let me ask the questions this way. > > 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind of rupa? ( e.g. visual > object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot it can be painful like > when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too cold it's pain, like when I > walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold shower in winter b/c the > boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst are kind of painful as > well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. Pain is of course dukkha of the bodysense, (dukkha dukkha) that arises from, as you said, heat or cold, and hardness not only from blunt objects but pointed or sharp ones and softness such as when the tissue is thin and exposed, motion and tension perhaps in cotusions or swellings and tight stretched skin, etc. Hunger could be a combination of these, I think (perhaps not heat and cold). > 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, agitation, dukkha-vedana or > domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then usually do sth to get rid > of the pain. Pain perception citta should be vipaka-citta in nature, so it's > a result of previous kamma. So my second questions is when I go a dentist or > doctor to have some procedures done, they usually give me a numb medication > to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I say that? I don't think so. I don't think you could block vipaka, even your going to the doctor is one, his giving you medication another, and if it worked or not another as well. > There are couple of cases of persons who born without ability to appreciate > pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. The bad news is usually > those people die from accident and self injury b/c even when they have minor > physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are bleeding from a cut > wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some protective property for > the body. What we are born with is also our vipaka. > 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some operations. He cut us but we did > feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under deep sleep. I think the > pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive it. How does vithi citta > work when we are put to sleep under the medication? When the vipaka brings results, the rupa (medication) could effect your nama (senses). With the right conditions anything can happen. > Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am just curious. A lot of > people suffer from physical pain like in cancer patients, as well as a lot > people in this world are dying from hunger. > > Good night, hope you guys have no pain. > > Num Num, didn't you mention you worked in an ER? It must be a good opportunity indeed to develop karuna! Is it anything like in the TV series? Amara 3806 From: Desmond Chiong Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 8:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Dear Derick or Rob, You are absolutely right in the importance of anapana or breathing meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a from of samatha meditation and also as a vipassana meditation. However, according to Nina and her group, what they are saying is that in order to practice strict vipassana, anapana meditation or for that matter, any meditation is not necessary. However, without any meditation, whether or not it is anapan, it is very, extremely difficult to attain sati, which is necessary for vipassana. I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as appetizer and vipassana as the main entree. Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the main entree, withou any appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an appetizer, before the main entree. Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish, but havin the right appetizer helps. With metta, des >From: "Amara" >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation >Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:28:20 -0000 > >--- Winkworth Derick SrA USAFE >CSS/SCIE wrote: > > Rob: > > > > I want to make it clear, that I'm not saying that anybody is >*wrong*. I > > have a tendency to come across that way, so I will try not to sound >like > > that here. So, anyway, from the "Interview with Nina Van Gorkom": > > > > =================================== > > Question: Nevertheless, the Buddha taught concentration practices >such as > > anapanasati- breathing mindfulness. Doesn't that suggest that they >are > > important? > > > > Answer: We read about this in the scriptures because in the Buddha's >time > > there were people who were able to concentrate on the breath. This >is a very > > subtle rupa, which is produced by citta. It is most difficult to be >aware of > > breath, before one knows it one takes for breath what is something >else, air > > produced by other factors, not breath. The commentary to the Kindred >sayings > > V, The lamp, states that only Maha-Purisas, the great disciples can >practice > > it in the right way. Thus, the Buddha did not teach that everyone >should > > practice it. To those who were gifted, who had the accumulations to >do so, > > he taught it. He explained that there is no self who is breathing, >and that > > breath is only rupa. > > ===================================== > > > > It sounds like Nina is implying that the millions of people who >currently > > employ breath-meditation in their daily practice are doing so in >err; that > > breath meditation is intended for "gifted" people. This can not be >so, > > because hundreds of millions of people for two millenia have >employed it > > with great success in their spiritual life. Perhaps, I shouldn't >speak for > > others, but I know what a difference buddhism has made in my life >and I know > > how integral breath meditation has been to this. I *think* that >other > > people feel the same way. > > > > Of course, I also know that all of my more interesting moments with > > mindfulness have been away from the pillow. > > > > Neuroscience shows us that, when we have an emotional experience, >those > > emotions are tied to the subsequent memory. In the future, when we >recall > > those memories, we experience the corresponding emotions all over >again. > > When we meditate and we experience concentration and calm and >equanimity, we > > are building memories, or "thought-habits" which can be recalled >when we > > really need them. We think, "mindful, mindful" and those feelings >of calm > > and equanimity wash over us again, however faintly or intensely, >because we > > have that memory of meditation with those emotional qualities. The >more > > refine our meditative practice, the more effectively we can employ >it > > throughout our daily life. > > > > Anyone wish to comment on this? Maybe I'm totally messed up here... > > > > Derick > > >Dear Derick, > >I hesitate to comment on this because of all the 90+ members in this >group I am probably the only one who has never practiced any formal >meditation, I only ever studied the present moment and whatever >concentration I experience are from the steadfastness of awareness of >the realities experienced at the instant. > >But perhaps I could first ask you to consider why we study and what >panna knows? For myself I study to know realities as they really are, >what I had never known before I began to seriously tried to understand >the Buddha's teachings. I learned that what I considered as myself >ian't really continuous consciousness and body but different >combitnations of nama (element of intelligence/consciousness) and rupa >(all other elements including a dead person, space and energy). No >self there at all for me or for anyone else. > >Yet this composed reality of sankhara, produced by kamma or deeds >accumulated through innumerable lifetimes to experience other vipaka >or result of kamma, some good, some bad, some neutral, through the >dvara or senses and the mind, is not really under my control, or I >would change many things about it, for example not ever get hungry or >sleepy or feel any kind of pain, or not to grow old. But from my >birth certainly to my death, everything happens because of conditions, >over and over because since we are living and accumulating more >actions and therefore more vipaka, samsara stretches on and on, never >ending, each birth so special and unique, for the zillionth time. > >Before the Buddha's time, people also tried to stop coming back to be, >and being so fed up with being slaves to their senses, to lobha, dosa >and moha; they would try to stop the attachments they have to the >sensations and emotions they derived from the senses. They found that >concentration of a single neutral object would shut out the senses if >they did it correctly. There were nearly impossible conditions to >fulfill to practice correctly and to recognize the right signs or >wrong signs of the highly refined state of citta, exempt from lobha, >dosa and moha. You have to live in the right place, wear the right >clothing, eat the right food, and know how to meditate and what to >meditate on, otherwise the jhana would not arise or the wrong and >dangerous ones. For details read the chapter on Samadhi Development, >Part VII, 'Summary of Paramatthadhamma' in the advanced section, > > >They also found that the right samadhi and attainment would enable to >develop supernatural powers, as long as there are conditions for the >jhana to arise, and if it arises at the moment of their deaths they >would become a brahma with such long lifespans that they forget about >death and rebirth. But after an endless time, the jhana ceases to >bring results, and they are back at square one. Over and over, and >when they did not practice correctly or not develop kusala but lived >on accumulated good deeds giving results led on each day by lobha, >dosa and moha, they could end up in the lower realms full of >suffering. > >With the enlightenment of the Buddha came the knowledge of anatta, >selflessness, that what we take for an entity is not just a soul and a >body but that even the mind is composed of the citta, the dhatu or >element that knows or experiences, and the cetasika or the nama that >performs all other duties such as remember, think, like, dislike, >study, pay attention, understand things as they really are. The >latter, when developed to very high degrees, can eliminate kilesa or >lobha, dosa and moha completely, level by level. The nama arise one >citta (and its accompanying cetasika) at a time, at the speed of 17 >times that of the fastest rupa (even light is only rupa). > >Which is why, the fastest machine being only rupa, the speed of nama >could never really be measured, as it doesn't have any shape or form >in the least. This speed hides the fact that everything is composed >of different realities arising from conditions and that in order to >prove this one should study the moment that realities appear around >us: right now what we take for a computer screen is before us, but how >does it really appear? If we close our eyes, do visible objects >appear? If we do not touch the mouse, do we really know it's not some >super hologram? Have you ever seen something and touched it to find >that the touch is different than you thought it would be? > >We have memories from past experience of the mouse, the screen and we >remember them. We make up theories about things around us and correct >them again and again, while the Buddha reversed the world of millions >of theories and pointed out to us the cause of it all: if there were >no nama, no rupa, would there be any experience of anything possible? > Is there any way but through the six senses that we can know anything >at all? Could we then theorize and calculate without the experiences >and their memories? If there were no nama and rupa would we be born? > Would we die? > >But our attachment to these nama and rupa is such that were you to >attain parinibbana right this instant, would you not prefer to see >your daughter perhaps just once more? Do something else before never >ever coming back to be? Few people really desire the ultimate peace, >they want to escape from unhappiness, from unpleasantness. Sometimes >instead of developing the right understanding to end sufferings, they >take the pleasant feelings full of lobha for peace from the usually >busy boring bothersome life for kusala citta, for peace. Real peace >is the moment the citta is free of lobha, dosa and moha, in other >words when it is evolving with dana, sila or bhavana. > >Which is why if one is not careful one might be developing the cause >for akusala vipaka instead of kusala, if one did not study to find out >what the citta is, what the cetasika are, what right understanding is, >and how to make it arise as well as accumulate it. If we understand >that wanting something is lobha, even jhana citta, and that lobha can >only bring unhappiness, and when the object of lobha falls away, there >is dosa. And worse when jhana citta doesn't arise. > >With vipassana, knowledge of things as they really are can arise even >with those who develop jhana correctly, since they know it is not >'them' doing the practice but a series of citta that arise and fall >away like anything else. Even without the jhana, which was the case >for most bhikkhus even in the Buddha's time, although all the eminent >arahantas did attain jhana as well, there can be steadfast attention >to the arammana from the first level of vipassana nana already, >increasing in strength with the level of panna, up to the moment that >the magga citta arise automatically from highly accumulated panna to >experience nibbana as arammana for the first time as the sotapanna. >(See the chapter on vipassana in the 'Summary' also.) > >Along the way the development of panna of things as they really are >bring many 'fringe benefits' that could really test the developer, who >sometimes take the other kusala happenings for something desirable, >thereby setting their own trap to keep them in the samsara of >ignorance. Panna knows in order to abandon, not to form more >attachments. Which is why we should ask ourselves what our aim is in >doing something: to have or to gain something, or to really know them >and let panna do its duty of eradicating kilesa when it is strong >enough to do so. Now, there are realities presenting themselves to be >studied, visible objects are completely different from sound, the >objects of different dvara are unique and not interchangeable, and at >the moment of studying their characteristics one can see there is no >place where there could be the self, in reality. Only when this >knowledge is strong and frequent enough would there be the deeper sati >where one doesn't think about it but really study their different >characteristics more and more, accumulating panna towards the first, >most feeble vipassana nana. > >This has turned out to be an extremely long letter, sorry about that! >Derick, you mentioned having awareness in other situations, you see >that it really is not within anyone's control, and that once the >conditions are right, it can arise anywhere, any time. Maybe you >would care to tell us about it? > >Amara > 3807 From: Date: Wed Mar 7, 2001 4:47pm Subject: TNH, study/practice Just a question as I really know nothing much at all about TNH....do you see it as something separate from your dhamma studies or both as part and parcel of the same 'practice'? It would be interesting to hear what you and Yacov think/find. Sarah - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a “whiff” of Thich Nhat Hanh” “We know that the fresh breeze, the clean air, the beautiful sky are all wonderful and we can profit from them. But you don’t need to possess them, you don’t need to be attached to them. You don’t have to make them your own, preventing other people from profiting from them. Mindfulness is the kind of energy that can help you to identify and to recognize what is there, and also to keep you free. You see something beautiful, you see someone beautiful, and, if you have freedom in you, you will be capable of enjoying that beauty. Mindfulness will help you not to be attached to it, not to be a slave of it, not to try to possess it, to make it yours and to prevent others from enjoying it. Mindfulness has been described as the act of recognizing things as they are, mere recognition of what is there. When we see a rose blooming, we recognize there is a rose blooming. When we see that the rose is beautiful, we say, “the rose is beautiful”, simple recognition of what is there. You do not try to tie it to you, to possess it, to be attached to it, or to run away from it, to suppress it or discriminate against it. I repeat this, if it is a pleasant feeling, recognize it simply as a pleasant feeling, not to be attached to it, not try to possess it, not try to make it last longer. If you do, you will suffer, because everything is impermanent, including your pleasant feeling. So, whether or not the pleasant feeling is there, you are a free person and that is the key to your happiness. When you do something negative, your mindfulness will tell you, “this is something negative”. When you have a feeling of non-joy arising in you, an unpleasant feeling, mindfulness will help you to recognize it as an unpleasant feeling. Mere recognition that it is an unpleasant feeling, you are still free from that feeling. Breathing in, I know that a feeling is in me; breathing out, I smile to the feeling. Breathing in, I know that this feeling is unpleasant; breathing out, I smile to the unpleasant feeling in me. You recognize the feeling and yet you are not a slave of that feeling, whether that feeling is pleasant or unpleasant. In both cases you remain a free person and as a free person you don’t suffer much, that is the secret. The real address of life is here and now, including the zip code. And if you ask the address of the Kingdom of God, the address of the Buddha, of Bodhisattvas, I will tell you: the same address, here and now. Therefore, our practice is to go back all the time to the here and the now in order to encounter true life and in order to encounter the Kingdom of God, the Buddha Land. And if your practice is strong, authentic, then you get it today, you don’t need tomorrow, you can get it today. And the more you practice the more you enjoy -- the practice is enjoyable. You don’t practice for the future, the Dharma is for the here and the now. The practice of mindful breathing is basic for helping you get anchored in the here and the now. Breathe in and out in such a way that you establish yourself always in the here and the now, while you eat, while you drink, while you wash dishes, while you sit with your son, daughter, brother or sister. The practice of mindful breathing or mindful walking is very crucial, very basic.” Transcripts of some of Thich Nhat Hanh’s Dharma talks are available at: www.plumvillage.org Regarding your question about studies and practice: if practice is a fire (hopefully burning itself out) then “studies” (occasional readings of sutras, dharma talks and articles, except for 5 items that I read regularly) are breezes that clear away the ashes and allow the fire burn more strongly. So, yes, for me it is “part and parcel” of the practice. 3808 From: Jim Anderson Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Defining Tathagata >--- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > wrote: >> Would the group please assist me in a good English definition of >"Tathagata" >> please, but only from the Theravadin school. I would like to see how >people >> define this. > > > >Venerable sir, > >Jim will probably give you the best and most thorough answer, but from >my own understandings it means the one who has taken that path, or the >one who has gone that way. I think it is a beautiful and rather >humble way of referring to the path taken by all the Buddha before him >even though it is through his rediscovery of this path that has led >millions to absolute peace also, and is still leading us as well as >will continue to, according to individual accumulations. Dear Amara, All I can do is point to where one can find standard definitions of terms in the Pali texts. However, in this case, I think what Ven. Dhammapiyo is asking for is how people personally define the word 'tathaagata' (Thus-gone) themselves. For me, I have not thought much about how the word is defined since I have not done the necessary research. It still remains a mystery to me. If I wanted to understand how the word is defined according to the Theravada, I think I would start with the exposition given in the Dighanikaya commentary (DA i 59-68). An English translation of it can be found in Bhikkhu Bodhi's The All-Embracing Net of Views -- Part Five: The Meaning of the Word "Tathaagata" pp. 318-331. Best wishes, Jim A. 3809 From: Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 3:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi all, Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling. K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache. What kind of bodily sensation is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when I sit in one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my limbs. Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of. Ischemic pain, e.g. heart attack. Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and my skin was peeled, it's so painful. Bone pain, I remember when my arm was broken, I was so painful. Regarding working in the ER. As Sarah said, there is no such a compassionate person. Karuna and metta come and go as well. Real life is not like a show. I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta. Seeing such state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal organs is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to get better. Citta rises and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can tell you what really turns me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a person who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable. Esp. if you take their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for months. Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just a phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by causes and conditions. I think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta and karuna as well. I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger or thirst. Could you explain the difference between puthujjana(worldling person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? Just my curiosity. Num 3810 From: Amara Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: Pain? --- wrote: > Hi all, > > Let me drag on a little further about pain and unpleasant feeling. > > K.Amara, what's about headache or stomachache. What kind of bodily sensation > is that? Yes, some pains are related to muscle tension, such as when I sit in > one position for a while, I can the tension in various part of my limbs. > > Let me go over some kinds of pain I can think of. Ischemic pain, e.g. heart > attack. Open surface/soft tissue pain e.g. when I have sunburn and my skin > was peeled, it's so painful. Bone pain, I remember when my arm was broken, I > was so painful. > > Regarding working in the ER. As Sarah said, there is no such a compassionate > person. Karuna and metta come and go as well. Real life is not like a show. > I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition kusula citta. Seeing such > state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and exposed internal organs > is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to get better. Citta rises > and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can tell you what really turns > me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of body odor of a person > who has not taken a bath for couple months is unbearable. Esp. if you take > their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their shoes off for months. > Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me that smell is just a > phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by causes and conditions. I > think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula action, metta and karuna > as well. > > I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still have pain, hunger or > thirst. Could you explain the difference between puthujjana(worldling > person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? Just my curiosity. Dear Num, Can we think that too much of anything is painful? Or the lack of something? A healthy body with the right amount of everything doesn't feel pain, does it? It would have to be, if one considers carefully, some imbalance or abnormality that causes pain, I think. In the end it is still the person's kamma that pain arises at all: the rupa that is born of kamma in that person is vipaka from some past bad kamma, with the help of other conditions. Still things have to be too hard, as when something 'hard' broke your bone, or too soft, like an open wound. Or too hot, as when there is a fever, or too cold, another type of fever. Could a heart attack be extreme motion and then tension when it contracts and stops? But one important thing is that pain is not only perceived by the senses, but the mind dvara as well, as you suspected, the arahanta would observe the pain differently. Even for those who study realities not to the degree of the arahanta would profit from their studies, as I wrote in an earlier message on this list,: the dhamma is really so beneficient that often one gets distracted by the 'fringe benefits' of its studies, as I call anything that distracts one from the real purpose of accumulating knowledge of things as they really are. But because it brings the highest good, the accompanying kusala must arise as well, inevitably, and it is always pleasant to experience, although like all else in life it falls away and would not arise when one has lobha for it, in other words the akusala of the lobha would be a hindrance to its arising. Knowing this, being mindful would be for the increase in knowledge itself, while one studies things that arises from conditions and fall immediately away, realities that are not the self, even the greatest torture cannot stay 24 hr.s a day, with so many other realities arising in between through all other dvaras. As you read this message, certainly realities appear through the eyes, as visible object, so different from sounds and smells. Thinking as well as countless bhavanga (life continuums) arise and fall away as well, the body sense of touching various objects related to the computer, etc. And as you observed, all could be the objects of mindfulness of things as they really are could lead to the separation of physical from mental sufferings, which might help you keep from shooting the second arrow at yourself, since the first arrow of physical suffering could not be avoided as the result of kamma. Worrying and preoccupation about any situation is considered the second arrow (and 2nd, 3rd, ad infinitum) in the Buddhist sense, as Khun Sujin explained in one of the latest booklets uploaded in the advanced section of , 'Birth, Age, Illness and Death' from which I quote: While there is still kamma to give result in this lifetime, we could not die. No matter what we do, we could not. Generally, dukkha of the mind arises from bodily dukkha: when there is illness, there would be worries. The illness would be like being stabbed by the first arrow. However, mental dukkha or worries are like the second arrow that penetrates the same wound again so that it gets worse. No matter how much more we suffer we could not escape the bodily dukkha, since to have a body is to have dukkha, pain from mosquito bites. If there were no worry, the second arrow would not exist, just the first one. To say that worry and trouble is the second arrow, we would clearly see that the second arrow should never have stabbed us also. When there is bodily dukkha we should heal it without adding the worry and trouble to it. To worry is completely useless, long trains of thought that does not help in any way. When there is illness we should take care of it without wasting time worrying about it. (End quote) The student of the dhamma would realize and profit from any situation through the study of the truth, and accumulate more knowledge of realities as they really are, gradually… (End entire quote) The way you describe the ER it must take a lot of khanti to be there as well, it must be a test to be aware of realities that present themselves in real life, but I still think in a way you have more opportunity for karuna than other people and you might be able to reflect on the brahma vihara more often than me, for want of a better example, especially the karuna part, where the aramana has to be present before you and suffering, mentally as well as physically. But all this according to conditions. Studying realities as they really are is great since anything could be object of awareness, and increase our understanding of things as they really are. Your mention of smells is something that makes the skin crawl, I have a strong aversion even to strong brand name perfumes, it seems to invade your person particularly the way even visible object is not able to, or sounds. But it is only what it is and in reality there is no real you, everything arises and falls away, it cannot stay more than just that instant when it appears, then bhavanga and other dvara and loads and loads of thought. Awareness that the other arrows might come from yourself and of things as they really are could be conditioned to arise to study smell and aversion as well as any other reality, isn't it strange that just we are offended even when people have no intention of offending us in the least? Just be smelling bad. Shows how much mana we have, I think, we think we know better than to wear that perfume, to bathe and clean ourselves, to distinguish what is right and wrong, even when what we think is true. Actually all are just nama and rupa and arise from conditions, and having lived for so long in samsara and been born all things imaginable, we were once worse than they for sure, since we must have been born in hell before also! The worse thing about all that of course is that there is no dhamma to study there! Anumodana in your studies, Amara 3811 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 0:53pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Masterpiece Dear Des, Alex, Howard, Mike, Amara & friends, I've enjoyed all the posts on this important topic such as this one: --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > The way I understand it, intuitively plus > intellectually, is that: > "citta" it self is dry and has no flavor, like an > ice cream without flavor; > it is the "cetasika" that arises with each citta > that "flavors" the citta. > Although citta arises together with the cetasika, it > is probably important > to know the difference. > Humbly, > with metta, > des > At the risk of spoiling those ice-creams, may I add a little more? It's true that citta (consciousness, the reality which knows or cognizes an object) is varied because of the different cetasikas (mental factors) which accompany it in various ways and combinations. However, paccaya (conditions) are more complicated still. For example, citta is also varied because of the different objects which are experienced by it. Seeing now, which is a citta, is different from hearing now, not just because of the cetasikas but because of the visible object or sound which is experienced. In the Atthasalini, we read the simile of the king and his retinue. Nina VG refers to this in 'Cetasikas': 'The king is the chief, the principal, and his retinue are his attendants. Even so are the cittas which arise in our daily life the leaders in cognizing the object, and the cetasikas are the asistants of citta.' For example, at a moment of seeing, phassa (contact) has to contact visible object, sanna (memory) has to mark the object, ekaggata (concentration) has to be one-pointed on the object and so on. So actually cittas and cetasikas condition and flavour each other and are interdependent on each other. If a citta is akusala (unwholesome), all cetasikas accompanying it are also unwholesome, even ones like ekaggata above which can be wholesome or unwholesome. Its quality is affected by the citta, the other accompanying cetasikas and the object experienced by them at that moment. Conditions are complex as Kom will happily explain! No two cittas are the same. What is experienced now by seeing is completely different from what was experienced by seeing a moment ago. Hence the wonderful description originally posted by Mike from Nina VG's Abhidhamma in Daily life, which I'll repeat below. Regards, Sarah "Citta can achieve many different effects. We read in the 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that masterpiece.'" http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html 3812 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:38pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Howard, It's rather cold in Hong Kong today, so I've come home early to try and catch up on list. After cittas and 'The Masterpiece' I'm ready to look at your comments more carefully. Firstly, your introduction led me to expect a real onslaught: > It happens that I'm in the process of > thinking over how to respond to > your recent post about compassion in such a way that > you won't cease enjoying > my posts! ;-)) > I do have some real reservations about what > you write there. I think I > may attempt a reply right now. But before I do, let > me apologize in advance > should I come across too strongly. I'll try to be > moderate. ;-) Then I found that you passed the first half of my post and were very moderate with your comments on the second half! Seriously, I'm still enjoying your posts, especially your careful consideration of all we write and your intelligent reponses. I'm quite sure your reservations are shared by many, so please don't feel you ever have to apologise! This is what the list is for. ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, as in other contexts as well, any talk > of "persons" is just > conventional shorthand. But such shorthand is useful > abbreviation so long as > one doesn't get caught in it. There *are* good, kind > persons, there are > others who are less so, and there are still others > who are just the opposite. > The distinction is a matter of what is the extent to > which compassion arises, > and to what extent compassionate action is the norm. > Some people care little > for others, being unconcerned with their suffering. > Still others act > consistently and automatically to ease the way for > others. No doubt this can > be understood in terms of differences in the > character of the flow of dhammas > in different kammic streams, but it also can be > understood conventionally. > While it is useful to examine the individual trees, > it helps to also see the > forest. As I recall reading, there were > contemporaries of the Buddha who had > the attitude that putting a sword through a person > would be no fault, as it > would just be mere matter passing through mere > matter. Something important > (and real) is lost there. > ------------------------------------------------------- Good points here. Of course we all know that it's true, conventionally at least, that some people are more kind-hearted or compassionate than others. We can also refer to their kind or compassionate deeds and it's useful to be able to do so. People have different accumulations and tendencies for sure. However, the point is that as you have clearly indicated on another theme 'that which is known in any way is experiential..' In other words, we can make all kinds of guesses about the forest, but how much is really known about the trees at this moment? Is there any clear understanding at this moment of the mental state? Is it clear when we are helping a child at which moments there are compassion? How much of that compassion is taken for me, myself, my compassion for others? The more understanding, the more ignorance is revealed. As it becomes clearer that very little is known at this moment about what is experienced directly, how can we really know for the others except by guess-work? -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't understand your meaning here. > Compassion does arise. In some > people it arises almost never. In others it arises > frequently, because their > mind is so disposed. Cultivation of the > Brahmaviharas is intended to foster > such a disposition. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- I agree that compassion arises in different degrees and quantities for different people. The next point is tricky. Why do we want to be a wise person, a good person or a compassionate person? Most the time it 's because we hold ourselves so dear, so important and want ourselves to be a certain way. In other words it's because of atachment to ourselves, not necessarily with any wrong view. In the same way, when we wish to have less anger or ignorance, it also shows the clinging and the importance we place on ourselves. This is a very difficult point. When understanding knows the characteristic of compassion arising for a moment and sees how selfless and considerate it is, at that moment there is no thought or concern for ourselves. This is the way compassion grows, nturally, in daily life without trying to be a more compassionate person or without even trying to have more compassion. The understanding is the key. >> When we wish to be a > >more > > compassionate person, it shows a clinging to self > > again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not necessarily. Compassion is useful. It is > helpful to people. The > true tendency towards compassion is wholesome, and > it is reasonable to choose > to increase that tendency. Of course it is possible > to cling to compassion > out of self-interest, out of a desire to see oneself > as a "good" person. That > is ego, and that is unwholesome. But it need not be > that way. > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Need not, but usually is! I would say (very controversial, I know) that anytime there is an attempt 'to choose to increase that tendency', there is clinging and usually the idea of self that can choose! Now I feel I should have started with an apology or warning, but these are really good points to discuss further. Btw, i don't think any of this has anything to do with Mahayana (about which I know little) vs Theravada. Ignorance is what we all start out with and as Num so nicely put to Yacov 'reality is reality' or 'paramathadhamma is paramathadhamma'... I look forward to hearing from you as I know i will!! Sarah 3813 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Thu Mar 8, 2001 1:53pm Subject: Anatta or not-self Dear Friends, When we read and hear that there is no self and that this is what the Buddha teaches, it may seem clear. However, what is anatta or not self? If there is no clear understanding of realities precisely as they are, distinct from concepts, there can be no understanding of anatta. It may seem tedious to consider so many details and to read different lists, but it's useful to be reminded of the purpose. The purpose is primarily to eradicate wrong view of things and people. A very good friend recently drew my attention to a sutta which is particularly apt in this regard and I'm hoping you will enjoy it and find it as useful as I do! "Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self... "He assumes perception to be the self... "He assumes (mental) fabrications to be the self... "He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness." Samyutta Nikaya XXII.99 Gaddula Sutta The Leash (1) "He keeps running around and circling around that very form...that very feeling...that very perception...those very fabrications...that very consciousness. He is not set loose from form, not set loose from feeling...from perception...from fabrications...not set loose from consciousness. He is not set loose from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is not set loose, I tell you, from suffering & stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-99.html 3829 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:55am Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! > Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.< 453f)>>? What those numbers and dot stand for? I tried to look the > hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no clue how to > go by those numbers. Dear Num, Just to confirm what you probably found out by now, it is very difficult to cross refer the Thai and other Tipitaka, except through the titles of the Sutta. The numbers are all different, somehow, and I still can't tell why. But if you know the names and the books, it usually works out all right. Have fun! Amara > I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word "Vaal.(in > Thai)" My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 volumes, 8 > books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma. According > to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta book 11), > samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446. From my > understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a horse. And > the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can shoot an > arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old fashion > doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, not > exactly a keyhole. > > I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own. This is good for me > to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. Much more > lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way. > > Appreciate. > > Num 3830 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:57am Subject: Re: Rob news > That little bird was correct. I discovered a long time ago that > while translating inspiring Dhamma articles, I understood the > materials deeper. Therefore, I'd like to translate the first book > that I read, which is "Taking Refuge in Buddhism". I'll start doing > it right now, even though I've been busy at work. I feel that if I > delay the project any longer, it'll never get done. :-))) Anumodana, dear Alex! =^_^= Amara 3831 From: Jim Anderson Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 0:16pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta! Dear Num, >Hi Jim and all, > >Could you tell me a little bit about the code system e.g.<453f)>>? What those numbers and dot stand for? I tried to look the >hair-splitting sutta up from my Thai Tipitaka CDrom and I have no clue how to >go by those numbers. My references are relevant to the publications of the Pali Text Society. There is a popular website on the net called Access to Insight that uses the first part of my reference: SN 56.45 which refers to the Samyuttanikaya, 56th Samyutta, Sutta no. 45. (I don't know if there is a translation of it there). Instead of 56, Roman numerals (LVI) are probably more common. The second part (S v 453f) refers to the PTS ed. in Pali, Vol. five, 453f. My system isn't exactly an international standard. I have most of the books published by the PTS at hand so it is relatively easy for me to get these references. I also have the Pali Budsir IV cdrom (in roman script) that I sometimes use and it probably corresponds with your cdrom as far as references go. If you have the Burmese Chatthasangayana cdrom vers. 3 you could locate a sutta with the PTS ref. (S v 453) and refs. to the Thai edn. is also included (page nos. though not item nos.). >I did find a sutta by using a search function to find the word "Vaal.(in >Thai)" My CDrom is a summation of tipitaka which consists of 45 volumes, 8 >books in vinaya, 25 books in suttanta and 12 books in abhidhamma. According >to my Cdrom, Vaal-sutta is located in Tipitaka vol 19, (or suttanta book 11), >samyutta-nikaya, mahavara-vagga, number 1738, page 446. From my >understanding 'vaal' means a hair-tail of a deer family, not a horse. And >the word 'daal' ( which the sutta mentioned that the Licchavi can shoot an >arrow into it from a remote distance) means a door-lock hole, old fashion >doors have big door-handles which have holes to put a lock-wood in, not >exactly a keyhole. I simply got the horse-hair translation of the word 'vaala' from the PTS Pali-English dictionary and did not check any further as that would take quite a bit of time. I can accept the possibility that the hair may not be that of a horse. A clear explanation of 'vaala' might be found buried somewhere in the commentaries. There could also be some confusion between vaala and vaa.la (beast of prey) to be looked at. Until this hair-splitting controversy over 'hair' gets settled maybe it would be more reasonable to just call it tail-hair for now. >I find it's kind of dry to read from a CDrom on my own. This is good for me >to look up specific suttas that have been posted on a discussion. Much more >lively and fun to look up the tipitaka and read it this way. Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both the Pali original and the Thai translation? How are you at reading Pali? Best wishes, Jim A. 3832 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 3:29pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path WARNING: this post contains serious brain-crunching content (at least for me)!! I'm sorry but there are too many Pali terms to translate, so pls skip it if it's likely to condition aversion. Dear Teng kee, I apologise for the delay... thank you for your last message. --- teng kee ong wrote: > > > Dear sarah, > I am not a pali scholar and I don't think anyone > will be after buddhist year 2000(start losing of > pariyatti after this year)). yes we need to make the most of opportunities now. I must say that if you > follow famous meditation teacher like mahasi > sayadaw-they will teach you their method won't need > any jhana but just insight alone.Some of them will > say by doing this you are having first jhana(not all > of them think so). Well, there have been different comments on the list about the Mahasi method. However with regard to possible attainment of jhana and importance of developing 'insight' at this moment, from what I've read, I agree with this. >This is why I mentioned samyutta > commentary warning (from arahant who know the > future)that they maybe teaching wrong method . I would question the method for different reasons to the ones you give. I'm not convinced that the Sam. Comm. note mentioned suggests everyone has to develop jhanas, but would think this applies to those who have accumulations for this....but am following up on this point. (Amara??) >They > gave many reasons like having no time for > jhana,easier for layman and monk etc.All these are > unacceptable because nibbana is the thing that > require all effort for our limited parami but not > just a part time thing like those people during > Buddha's time. I'd be interested to hear what you mean by this. Of course as we know that samma ditthi (right understanding) is the key, no we to make any effort, and samma vayama (right effort) always arises with samma ditthi. I dont's see how the question of part-time or full-time comes in. It's not a question of counting the moments of samma ditthi. >Strangely their best teacher -ledi > sayadaw think sukkhavipassaka is a very hard method > because you have to have higher wisdom. The wisdom that eradicates all defilements is the highest wisdom and very hard to develop for anyone. I have never seen any Tipitaka reference to suggest this is higher for a sukkhavipassaka, but maybe I'm misunderstanding his point. he passed > away 50 years ago before mahasi sayadaw method > became the most most popular theravada meditation > method.I have no idea at all if he is still alive. > The book-criticism and replies is a book written by > Mahasi follower about a sri lanka monk debate > essays.I don't think that sri lankan monk was having > right view too compare to the burmese theory. I'm lost on this. > The soma thera tranl. is in the intro part > (commentary)for that mentioning of samathayanika etc > before the begining of sutta. In my copy, before the sutta, there is just an intro by Soma Thera. This is interesting to me, because in spite of having translated the commentary into English and studied it in detail, there stills seems to be an idea of self, as in: 'The business of the meditator is to keep mindfulness going during the whole of the waking state'. Anyway, i'm sorry, but I just can't tell what you are referring to and what the point is. Perhaps you can give me a page ref. as I'm sure you're not referring to Soma Thera's writing. > I repeat that sukkhavipasaka means your attainment > of fruition is insight follow by jhana(before that > cittavithi of frution).The jhana come out due to > insight for people like visakha lady etc who have no > jhana before or having jhana but didn't emerge from > it as samathayanika do. It seems that on the important point ((i.e whether it's necessary to have attained jhana before magga citta (path consciousness), we all agree with what was originally written on this on the list, i.e. no)). What I understand is that whereas we say that from our reading of Abhidamatha Sangaha in particular, that the samma samadhi acompanying magga citta & phala citta is equivalent to jhana for a moment for the sukkhavipasaka, you're saying that for both these people and also those who have attained jhanas but who didn't use samatha as basis for insight, rather the phala cittas are followed by jhana conditioned by the panna accompanying magga citta. Is that right? Actually, as long as we all agree on the first point, I don't find the other very important, but am still interested to follow your references as they seem to be questioning the A.S. > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution as > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > meant the arahant at that time will have no > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > aroud buddhist year1000. I understand this to mean that simply as I started off saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain jhanas today. I don't have access to patisambhida com and dhammadayada sutta com and sub com, so I have no way to follow these further. Amara or Kom or Num may in Thai if interested. I think if you could give specific references it would be easier for them or for Jim in Pali. Thanks for your interest Teng and I'd be very interested indeed if you would care to give us a brief introduction about your dhamma studies/practice and perhaps your particular interest in this area above. Regards, Sarah 3833 From: Amara Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 5:22pm Subject: The Nature of Vedana {Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] New 'Word'} > The other senses also > have vedana arising with them, every time one sees or hears there is > happiness or unhappiness as well as neutral or indifferent feelings. Dear All, Before the real abhidhamma experts start picking, I would like to amend the above: The other senses also have vedana arising with them, every time one sees or hears there is neutral or indifferent feelings with the vinnana citta. But as each vinnana citta arises within its process, the javana of the process could have all three vedana, depending on conditions. Sorry for all the careless mistakes, Amara > As do thinking (which is why ideologies can be addictive, as can > studies! But even then, they arise and fall away, no us there either), > and all other kinds of citta. (See the chapter in the 'Summary' Part > V: Appendix - 52 Kinds of Cetasika, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/) . > > The dhamma taught by the Buddha can be categorized into two major > realities which we should really understand as a firm basis to > studying realities as they really are. All that truly exist are one > or the other of these two, no matter in what we call ourselves or in > the furthest corners of the universe: namadhamma and rupadhamma. > > Namadhamma are realities that can know or experience something, we > might call it intelligence or consciousness or the element that knows, > or the nama. The nama is what makes us different from a newly dead > body which Num will tell us has the same recyclable body parts that we > do (and sometimes we do avail ourselves to them!). Their hearts for > example could be transplanted to someone who needs a healthier one. > But the dead body does not experience anything any more because no > nama arises there. If the conditions were right, the transplant would > be successful: did you hear about the recent second transplant of a > hand to a person who lost his? (Talk about a second hand!) Think of > how intricate kamma is, and therefore the corresponding vipaka, first > the person loses a hand and all nama that used to arise there except > for what is in the memory. Then he 'recovers' both, perhaps not to > the same extent as before, but in the kidney transplant, for example, > maybe even better ones. > > Nama as we remember, consists of the citta, which is the principle > element of all knowing intelligence and the cetasika that does all the > other functions of intelligence and experiencing. When the citta > arises through the eyes we see, such as at this moment. Through the > eye sense or dvara (doorway- can it mean anything else, Jim?) it is > called chakkhu vinnana citta, the ears sota vinnana, nose - ghana, > tongue - jivha, body sense - kaya, and mind mano vinnana. Whereever > it arises it can experience the finest details of its object or > whatever it is knowing, which is called arammana. It can detect an > imitation painting, a favorite singer, the sea ozone, a certain wine, > the touch of a material. The most difficult thing for it to know is > itself, because it arises and falls away so fast. But since the > cetasika is just as fast, sati and panna of the succeeding citta could > have the previous citta as arammana immediately after it has fallen > away. This means that the citta could have the previous set of citta > and its accompanying cetasika as arammana as well. > > All citta would be accompanied by at least 7 cetasika, for the > simplest function of receiving vipaka of past kamma: which is what we > do when we see or hear etc. Do we really have a choice of what we > experience daily? Can we choose not to see now? Too late, it is > done. So through the five dvara only the vipaka citta arises, as > kusala or akusala vipaka, according to conditions arising from kamma > in the past. The mano dvara is something different, mano vinnana can > experience all arammana from all the dvara, as well as think according > to all the experiences accumulated. Different kinds of citta occur at > all the dvara, however, with different combinations of cetasika > accompanying it, up to the maximum of 36 cetasika (right, K. Kom?!? > =^_^= ) at the level of the magga citta. For details about the > cetasika please read the reference materials above. > > Anumodana to all who study, > > Amara 3834 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear Teng Kee & friends, my turn to follow up with a quick correction... --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution > as > > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > > meant the arahant at that time will have no > > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > > aroud buddhist year1000. > > I understand this to mean that simply as I started > off > saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain > jhanas today. > What I think I should have said is that atttainment of arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer possible. This would probably agree with what you're saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to others! 3835 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:26pm Subject: Re: Masterpiece Mike You were wondering about the origin of the passage - > We read in the > 'Atthasalini' (a commentary to the Dhammasangani, which is the first > book of the Abhidhamma) Book I, Part II, Analysis of Terms, 64: > > "...the Blessed One has said, 'Monks, have you seen a masterpiece of > painting?' 'Yes, Lord.' 'Monks, that masterpiece of art is designed > by the mind. Indeed, monks, the mind is even more artistic than that > masterpiece.'" > > http://www.dhammastudy.com/abhid3.html According to a footnote in the new Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the Samyutta Nikaya, one source of this is a passage in the sutta called `The Leash' (SN III 22.100) which was quoted on the list in another context recently. The relevant passage in the BB translation reads: "Bhikkhus, have you seen the picture called `Faring On'?" "Yes, venerable sir." "Even that picture called `Faring On' has been designed in its diversity by the mind, yet the mind is even more diverse than that picture called `Faring On'. …" The footnote says: 'As 64-65 quotes this passage in its discussion of how mind designs the world.' 3836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Middle Path Bruce, Alex and others Some time ago there was some discussion on the question (raised by Bruce, I think) of the Middle Path – What are the various extremes for which the Path is the middle? Alex quoted a passage from the first sutta of the Samyutta Nikaya titled "Crossing over the Flood" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn1-1.html, > the Buddha said: "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place." because ""When I pushed forward, I was > whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over > the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place." Recently I came across this sutta in the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as ‘The Connected Discourses of the Buddha’. The translation there is – "It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood." In a note to the sutta it explains that this is a reference to the middle way (majjhima patipada) and it gives 7 pairs of extremes that are mentioned in the commentary to the sutta. They are - (i) "halting" by way of defilements, one sinks; "straining by way of volitional formations [kkhanddha], one gets swept away; (ii) by way of craving and views, one sinks; by way of the other defilements, one gets swept away; (iii) by way of craving, one sinks; by way of views one gets swept away; (iv) by way of the eternalist view, one sinks; by way of the annihilationist view, one gets swept away; (v) by way of slackness one sinks, by way of restlessness one gets swept away; (vi) by way of devotion to sensual pleasures one sinks, by way of devotion to self-mortification one gets swept away; (vii) by way of all unwholesome volitional formations [akusala sankhara] one sinks, by way of all wholesome mundane volitional formations [kusala sankhara] one gets swept away. (Items (iv) and (vi) were the ones identified in the earlier discussion.) Much to ponder on there! I particularly liked the last one, which mentions mundane kusala as one of the extremes to be avoided. This is so because, as we have discussed in other contexts, mundane kusala (ie. kusala not of the level of satipatthana) does not lead to emancipation. Instead it 'sweeps one away'. Jon 3837 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:10pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Howard > Agreed. Certainly the notion of > unexperienceable things underlying > experiential objects is "not too difficult to > contemplate". There may, > indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We > all are, in fact, quite > used to assuming that this is the case. When most > people look out the window, > for example, they really believe that there is some > "external" window (or, at > least, externally existing factors which > *constitute* the window), and "they" > are looking through it. They all assume that there > is something beyond the > merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, > the merely tasted, the > merely cognized. Yes, but not only ‘they’ make that assumption. Even those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to appreciate that such an assumption is not right may still have many moments of this very kind of wrong view occurring in a day. The tendency has been accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most part (if we are lucky). Understanding at an intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered, that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise from time to time. Are we aware of it when it arises? And even if we do not "really believe" that there is something out there, that is still not the same as seeing things as they really are. We may understand at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that comes from the development of awareness of the reality of the present moment. It is that awareness which, when developed, leads to the kind of understanding that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent passages you quoted for us. > In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama > Sutta may be of interest. > The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata > does no conceive of a > visible thing as apart from sight; he does not > conceive of an unseen; he does > not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not > conceive about a seer." I > quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of > this sutta entitled "The > Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the > Buddha's advice to Bahiya > quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): > "Then, Bahiya, thus must you > train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the > seen; in the heard, just > the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the > cognized, just the > cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train > yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, > in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in > the heard just the heard; > in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just > the cognized then Bahiya, > you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in > it. And when, Bahiya, > you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be > 'here' nor 'there' nor > 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of > suffering." Thanks for these useful quotes. Jon 3838 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 10:43pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out Ann Glad you have decided to come out, and delighted to be able to welcome you to the list. Look forward to more chat in future. Jon --- Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several > months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list > and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I > do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never > indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the > original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been > "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable > how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out > to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those > who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing > to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and > business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall 3839 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:33pm Subject: Re: a history Hello Sarah, OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson from it that I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to study abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for all my years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to speak, but either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready. You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me to Wat Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan had been going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned to me, and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have been several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led to believe it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated for one of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection of their own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get that copy of Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my own aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, I had been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and then, much, much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to arise. I spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" meditation, thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw within me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was still an unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful with it because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, etc., and when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no reinforcement for me to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there. In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced to a wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through him, I gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the level at which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also understand what I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be here since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just thought and pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to search for a new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding of dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know less than I did. And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 years ago, I was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in the back of my mind. However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. with anomodhana, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3840 From: wynn Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:34pm Subject: UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage The following petition is being circulated by UNESCO's Bureau of Public Information. For background information, see http://www.unesco.org/opi2/afghan-crisis/ UNESCO International Petition to Safeguard Afghanistan Cultural Heritage We, the undersigned, plead for an immediate end to the Taliban edict to demolish Afghanistan's cultural heritage. We further urge the Taliban spiritual leader Mullah Mohammed Omar to enter into dialogue with the international community -including the Arab and Islamic governments that overwhelmingly have condemned these actions - in order to explore proposals to safeguard this irreplaceable cultural heritage from further, senseless destruction. The edict of the 26th of February 2001 to destroy pre-Islamic and Buddhist objects-including the world's largest standing Buddha statues at Bamiyan-runs counter to all the basic principles of respect, tolerance and the wisdom upon which Islam is based, and is a breach of the Taliban pledge made in 1999. We plead with Taliban authorities to stop this irreversible assault on two millennia of Afghanistan's artistic and cultural achievements, treasured not only as the spiritual birthright of Buddhists everywhere but also as a universal cultural heritage for people of all faiths and nationalities. -Please sign and also forward this e-mail to friends, family, news groups, mailing lists etc. -To avoid adding ">>>" onto the chain, please preferably cut & paste the entire petition and list of names into a new message prior to re-sending. -The 100th, 200th, 300th etc. name to sign is requested to also forward the updated list of signatures back to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization at e-mail: "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/post?protectID=224071192112185190033147109077229088136146166189077171188150048002051". 1) (Your name here) 3841 From: <> Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 11:40pm Subject: Re: Middle Path --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Recently I came across this sutta in the SN > translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi, published as `The > Connected Discourses of the Buddha'. The translation > there is – Dear Jon, I like the notes that you included in this post. I need to consult my copy of the SN translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi more often. Thank you, Jon. Anumodana, Alex 3842 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 6:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Realities, concepts and dhammas Hi, Jon - I agree 100% with what you say in the following. There is all the difference in the world (and beyond! ;-) between mere intellectual understanding/belief and direct knowing, and I personally don't know *any* folks whose knowing of these ultimate matters goes very far beyond mere intellectual knowledge plus somewhat of a "sense" of the way things really are. As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify self and objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite alive and well! ;-) With metta, Howard > Howard > > > Agreed. Certainly the notion of > > unexperienceable things underlying > > experiential objects is "not too difficult to > > contemplate". There may, > > indeed, *be* something beyond the experienceable! We > > all are, in fact, quite > > used to assuming that this is the case. When most > > people look out the window, > > for example, they really believe that there is some > > "external" window (or, at > > least, externally existing factors which > > *constitute* the window), and "they" > > are looking through it. They all assume that there > > is something beyond the > > merely seen, the merely heard, the merely touched, > > the merely tasted, the > > merely cognized. > > Yes, but not only ā€˜theyā€™ make that assumption. Even > those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to > appreciate that such an assumption is not right may > still have many moments of this very kind of wrong > view occurring in a day. The tendency has been > accumulated and lies dormant (anusaya) for the most > part (if we are lucky). Understanding at an > intellectual level, no matter how deeply pondered, > that the reality is otherwise cannot do anything to > eradicate the tendency, and so it is bound to arise > from time to time. Are we aware of it when it arises? > > And even if we do not "really believe" that there is > something out there, that is still not the same as > seeing things as they really are. We may understand > at an intellectual level that there is no thing in the > seen, but his is not the kind of knowledge/wisdom that > comes from the development of awareness of the reality > of the present moment. It is that awareness which, > when developed, leads to the kind of understanding > that the Buddha is talking about in the excellent > passages you quoted for us. > > > In this regard, I think that the Kalakarama > > Sutta may be of interest. > > The Buddha says there: "Thus, monks, a Tathagata > > does no conceive of a > > visible thing as apart from sight; he does not > > conceive of an unseen; he does > > not conceive of a 'thing-worth-seing'; he does not > > conceive about a seer." I > > quote this from Bhikkhu Nanananda's exposition of > > this sutta entitled "The > > Magic of Mind". Also relevant, I think, is the > > Buddha's advice to Bahiya > > quoted in the same book (and taken from Ud. 8): > > "Then, Bahiya, thus must you > > train yourself: 'In the seen, there will be just the > > seen; in the heard, just > > the heard; in the sensed, just the sensed; in the > > cognized, just the > > cognized.' That is how, Bahiya, you must train > > yourself. Now, when, Bahiya, > > in the seen there will be to you just the seen; in > > the heard just the heard; > > in the sensed just the sensed; in the cognized just > > the cognized then Bahiya, > > you will not be (reckoned) by it, you will not be in > > it. And when, Bahiya, > > you will not be in it, then, Bahiya, you will not be > > 'here' nor 'there' nor > > 'midway-between'. This itself is the end of > > suffering." > > Thanks for these useful quotes. > > Jon > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3843 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:16am Subject: Re: a history > However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about > a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of > the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my > son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. > > Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to > Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. Dear Betty, I'm so glad you found us, you are our Saturday Discussion star! See you tomorrow, (I got the nicest letter from Nina, will also bring!!!) Amara 3844 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 0:23am Subject: Re: Realities, concepts and dhammas > As far as I, myself, am concerned, while the tendency to reify self and > objects has been somewhat weakened, it is regretably still quite alive and > well! ;-) Dear friend, You're in good company! 'Mine' too; doubt if there are ariya here!!! =^_^= Amara 3845 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 8:02pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] a hair-splitting sutta! Hi Jim > Are you reading the Thai translation only? Does your cdrom disk contain both > My Pali is terrible. I have read series of Pali grammar on my own. Headache, I could not get much form the books, less than 20%. Not easy at all. I don't know, to studying language is not in my primary nature. I even did not want to study English when I was younger. Well, kiddy thing, now I regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time. My Cdrom has both Thai and Pali version. I have only 3 books in English by PTS, theragatha, therigatha and vibhanga-abhidhamma. All are from 1971. I pretty much read English or Thai. I will try to get used to coding system of PTS. Thanks for your inf. Num 3846 From: Date: Fri Mar 9, 2001 9:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a history Hi Betty, My name is Num. The writting in your mail is uplifting. I am impressed. Sound like you are a very strong-will woman and mom. Nice meeting you. Thanks for sharing with us your uplifting history. May the force (right effort) always be with you. Num :) 3847 From: Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:01am Subject: List Bulletin Wyn & friends, Please read the Guidelines for this list carefully which can be found in the files section on the homepage. We quote the relevant section: GOOD PRACTICE Please respect and be tolerant of views which may be different from your own. Absolutely no flame messages or harsh language. The following are off-topic for our purposes (no matter how interesting or useful they may seem): chain letters, virus alerts, 'everybody in my address book' messages, circulars, petitions, urban legends, or any other similar messages. Just questions, answers, or comments relating to the Budhha's teachings, please! Sorry, but attachments are not accepted on this list. Posts to the list are generally not moderated, but we reserve the right to moderate posts of members who send inappropriate messag 3848 From: teng kee ong Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 7:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path -----Original Message----- From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:12:57 +0800 (CST) Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path > Dear Teng Kee & friends, > > my turn to follow up with a quick correction... > --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > > > Buddhaghosa mentioned we can only attain frution > > as > > > sukkhavipasaka during the end of sasana.I think he > > > meant the arahant at that time will have no > > > iddha,divine eye etc like what happen in sri lanka > > > aroud buddhist year1000. > > > > I understand this to mean that simply as I started > > off > > saying, that it isn't in effect possible to attain > > jhanas today. > > > > What I think I should have said is that atttainment of > arahatship using jhanas as a basis is no longer > possible. This would probably agree with what you're > saying above about the special powers etc. But I'm on > very shaky ground here.., so I'll leave this point to > others! > Dear Sarah, The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like samathayanika. It is very important to understand this because what if we are having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't attain nibbana in this life. As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana(see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading. I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic teaching by buddha only. _From Teng Kee 3849 From: Amara Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 10:04pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! > Well, kiddy thing, now I > regret and I am studying 2-3 other languages at the same time. Dear Num, May I ask what other languages you are studying? (Le francais est-elle l'une d'entre elles?) Sorry I don't have the right font and it looks a bit strange! Anyway I think you might want to add Pali to the list now, it may be more fun for your dhamma studies. Je suis certaine que vous l'aimeriez beaucoup! Amara 3850 From: <> Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: Coming out ---Dear Ann, I have been off dsg for a few weeks and was planning a long break. however sarah sent me the address of escribe and I couldn't resist taking a peek at what was being said. I just saw your note and had to respond ( and rejoin). You are no stranger to me as 1n 1991 I stayed with sarah and jon in hongkong for 2 weeks. they gave me copies of correspondence bettwen you and Nina van Gorkom. They were really wonderful. Welcome to the forum. rob wit Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall 3851 From: <> Date: Sat Mar 10, 2001 11:48pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > Dear all, > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then another split > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to the shaft > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a distance > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair with the > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. This > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to realize > nibbana. So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire ocean. During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real one from imitations. The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. rob 3852 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:05am Subject: Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Dear teng, Comments below: > The web site of samthayanika and vipassanayanika is in www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html#synopsis.You should be able to find it.The sammasamadhi in com means the one moment of cittavithi during fruition attainment and also first jhana,second jhana etc.So I am saying sukkhavipassaka have a cittavithi of lokiya jhana after insight then follow by cittavithi of ariya fruition.This was mentioned in patisambhida com.That one moment of ariya magga with have the mental factors of that jhana they have done etc like samathayanika. > It is very important to understand this because what if we are having the wrong meditation object /method that resulted us can't attain nibbana in this life. > As for the samyutta com -practising of eight jhana,I think it is because jhana is ariya tunhibhava (second jhana)and temporal nibbana (see anguttara 9 nipata).this is not so for vipassana or book reading. > I only learn buddhism from ancient canon but not from modern teachers like Mahasi sayadaw,Ajhan Cha etc.Look at Thanniasaro bhikkhu idea of sukkhavipassa etc,he even think anatta is a tactic teaching by buddha only. > _From Teng Kee I have been reading over the discussion under this heading and feel it is very useful. I don't have much to add except to say if you have time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali this would be helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more accurately in this way. Don't feel obliged, of course. The translation work you are doing for the sasana affects future generations and should take preference over this forum. Like you I rely much on the ancient canon (in translation) and the people I admire in buddhism are those who do not add their own opinions to the dhamma; but rather explain the dhamma just as it has been handed down through the millenia. Anyway thank you for all the posts you've already given and for all to come. I think I speak for everyone when I say how fortunate we are to have you as a member. I sincerely hope you will feel at home here. rob 3853 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 0:14am Subject: Re: a history -Dear Betty, Thank you for this. Very nice.`Yes "we" cannot choose to go right, nor can we choose to go wrong. If there is wrong undersatnding one must practice wrongly- it is impossible not to. rob-- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the only lesson from it that > I can see that might benefit others is that one would only begin to study > abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. It seems that for all my > years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's reach, so to speak, but > either I didn't know it at the time or I was not ready. > > You see, when I first arrived here back in 1966 my husband took me to Wat > Bavorn quite early on and introduced me to Pra Khantipalo. Achaan had been > going there at that time as well, although that was never mentioned to me, > and I had been given a copy of Nina's book (although that may have been > several years later). When I asked what abhidhamma was, I was led to believe > it was some esoteric, mystical system that was far too complicated for one > of ordinary intelligence to study. Unfortunately, many monks here in > Thailand like to perpetuate that myth, which really is a reflection of their > own ignorance and/or aversion to abhidhamma. So, when I did get that copy of > Nina's book, the frequent use of Pali also turned me "off" and my own > aversion reinforced what the monks had led me believe. In addition, I had > been taught that only through meditation, first anapanasati, and then, much, > much later, through vipassana, would the understanding begin to arise. I > spent far too much time with unsuccessful attempts to "do" meditation, > thinking all the while that there must have been some inherent flaw within > me that didn't allow me to have any success with it (anatta was still an > unknown concept for me at the time). I felt I was not successful with it > because I mistakenly believed that it would help me control anger, etc., and > when it didn't "do its job", so to speak, there was no reinforcement for me > to carry on with the discipline of it. No real understanding there. > > In 1972, during a period of strain in my marriage, I was introduced to a > wonderful teacher, also a layman, named Achaan Boonphen. Through him, I > gained a beginning understanding of dhamma, although not to the level at > which one could learn through Achaan Suchin. I began to also understand what > I believed was a karmic connection with Thailand: that I had to be here > since supposed connections from past lives in Thailand needed to be > continued. (Today, I realize that such speculation is all just thought and > pannyati that arise). When he finally died in 1989, I began to search for a > new teacher, realizing that I was ready gain a deeper understanding of > dhamma than what I had. But each person I went to seemed to know less than I > did. And even when I did get Achaan's number from Nina over 3 years ago, I > was not ready for her because I still had the old misconceptions in the back > of my mind. > > However, when the time was ripe, everything just fell into place. Just about > a year ago, a monk at Wat Bavorn where my son is a monk as well (I'm one of > the few Jewish mothers who can boast about her son the monk instead of "my > son the doctor") suggested I contact this website. The rest you know. > > Thanks to Jack, Amara, Sarah and other kalayanamitta, and especially to > Achaan, I have found the right path (for me) and am eternally grateful. > > with anomodhana, > Betty > > __________________________ > Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala > 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road > Bangkok 10900, Thailand > tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3854 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Digest Number 331 Dear Num, Thank you and nice to meet you too. Am glad that you enjoyed reading my history; it had risen and fell away, finished, and only sanna, memory, keeps it "in mind". Only this moment, now, exists, and by the time the mind door has "interpreted" the cetasikas which have arisen, they have long since fallen away. But at least memory will store what we have learned intellectually and that is a beginning. . . Anomodhana, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3855 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:46am Subject: Welcome back Robert Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to rush to the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave without a message for you. I am so happy that you are back!!! I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the brain eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! Love and respect Cybele >From: <> >Reply->>Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:48:22 -0000 > >--- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then >another split > > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to >the shaft > > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a >distance > > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair >with the > > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. >This > > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to >realize > > nibbana. > >So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have >died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. >And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire >ocean. >During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And >even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real >one from imitations. >The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if >the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever >so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness >of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They >can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it >becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be >sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will >have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. >rob > 3856 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:16am Subject: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Dear all, Another great article by Nina in the intermediate section at !! And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- (Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your comments!) Thanks, and enjoy! Amara 3857 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 11:21am Subject: Re: Welcome back > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to rush to > the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave without a > message for you. > I am so happy that you are back!!! > I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the brain > eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) > I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! Dear Cybele, Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK? Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!! >;-b... Amara 3858 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 8:06am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > And thanks to Howard, I have replaced the passage about Vedana- > (Please see if it is what you wanted, Howard, I look forward to your > comments!) > ============================ I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it addresses more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. Thank you. As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have somewhat answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or whether it refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have decided that it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics of sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such a thing as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem to be such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many different sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some unpleasant, and some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a thing called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 'neutral', but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3859 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 1:44pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I'm happy with the replacement. It is clearer to me, and it addresses > more clearly exactly what the term 'vedana' refers to. Dear all, and Howard and Rob, I'm happy too then! I must apogize for another mistake which Rob pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new page to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so nice!! Amara Thank you. > As I have thought more about the matter, myself, I have somewhat > answered my own question. I had wondered whether 'vedana' refers to > sensations perceived as pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral, or whether it > refers to pleasantness, unpleasantness, and neutrality. I have decided that > it must be the *first*, for two reasons: (1) pleasantness etc are > abstractions, mere concepts corresponding to three characteristics of > sensations , and (2) while there might, conceivably, seem to be such a thing > as 'pleasant' and such a thing as 'unpleasant', there does not seem to be > such a thing as 'neutral'. However, there certainly are many different > sensations, some of which are (experienced as) pleasant, some unpleasant, and > some neutral. It seems to me that, really, we do not experience a thing > called 'pleasant', a thing called 'unpleasant', or a thing called 'neutral', > but we *do* experience a multitude of pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral > sensations, and I suspect that it is these that 'vedana' refers to. > > With metta, > Howard > > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3860 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:59pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Cetasikas Howard You have raised an interesting point. > Although on the web site it is said that the > cetasikas "experience" > the same object as the citta they accompany, I find > that an odd way of > speaking. It would seem more natural to me to use > the phrase "are associated > with" rather than "experience". I understand a citta > to be a discernment of > an object, and a cetasika to be a mental factor, > such as happiness or anger, > which simply accompanies the discernment, much as a > flavoring may be mixed > into ice cream, to use a happy simile! ;-)) Two > different discernments of > "the same" odor, for example, are distinguishable by > the mental concomitants > accompanying them. In the two cases, the odor may be > the same, but the total > experience in one case will differ from that in the > other because of a > difference in "flavor". This is how I see it. > Possibly, however, this way of > seeing the matter may be peculiar to me, and it may > be at variance with > traditional Abhidhamma. I'll leave that for more > knowledgeable folks to > decide. I'm not sure if you are saying that the cetasikas do *not* experience the object, but I think that would not be correct. After all, it is this faculty that distinguishes the realities that are namas from those that are rupas. Certainly, citta is the chief in experiencing the object, while the cetasikas assist or are associated with the citta. The Atthasalini gives the following simile: The Expositor I, Pt II, 67 "But consciousness does not arise singly. Just as in saying ‘the king has arrived,’ it is clear that he does not come alone without his attendants, but comes attended by his retinue, so this consciousness should be understood to have arisen with more than fifty moral (mental) phenomena." Jon 3861 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:20pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: breathing meditation Des I liked you analogy of the appetizer and main entrée. But I think it is those who dive into a form of ‘practice’ without studying the teachings who are skipping the appetizer. After all, it is the vipassana meditation teachers who offer the speedy progress. Those of us who are content to find out exactly what the Buddha had to say about the development of understanding, and are not expecting miracles, are the ones who are spending time on the appetizer! Jon --- Desmond Chiong wrote: > Dear Derick or Rob, > You are absolutely right in the importance of > anapana or breathing > meditation, which can be practiced very safely as a > from of samatha > meditation and also as a vipassana meditation. > However, according to Nina and her group, what they > are saying is that in > order to practice strict vipassana, anapana > meditation or for that matter, > any meditation is not necessary. > However, without any meditation, whether or not it > is anapan, it is very, > extremely difficult to attain sati, which is > necessary for vipassana. > I compare any meditation to attain the basic sati as > appetizer and vipassana > as the main entree. > Yes it is true that some can, and want to eat the > main entree, withou any > appetizer, but a lot of people want and need an > appetizer, before the main > entree. > Yes, it is tyrue that the main entree is the dish, > but havin the right > appetizer helps. > With metta, > des > 3862 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 3:50pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Pain? Num I found your questions interesting. I would like to give my own brief answers. > 1. What is arammana of pain sensation? What's kind > of rupa? ( e.g. visual > object is arammana for seeing). When it's too hot > it can be painful like > when I accidentally burnt my hand. When it's too > cold it's pain, like when I > walked on snow with thin shoes or took a very cold > shower in winter b/c the > boiler didn't work. I don't know, hunger and thirst > are kind of painful as > well. I know that pain is a bodily sensation. The arammana (object) of bodily pain sensation are just the arammana that are experienced the body door at any other time (heat and cold, softness and hardness, motion and pressure) but arising in different intensities and combinations. The rest (ie. our perception of the pain in conventional terms) is a product of the mind-door. > 2. Pain usually conditions unpleasant feeling, > agitation, dukkha-vedana or > domanassa-vedana then aversion or dosa. We then > usually do sth to get rid > of the pain. Pain perception citta should be > vipaka-citta in nature, so it's > a result of previous kamma. So my second questions > is when I go a dentist or > doctor to have some procedures done, they usually > give me a numb medication > to block away the pain. So we block vipaka, can I > say that? I don't think so. Also when we put on clothes to keep us warm, or eat to get rid of hunger, for that matter. But unless there is the wholesome kamma ready to ripen, the action taken cannot have the intended effect. I’m sure you would have heard of instances of people for whom an anaesthetic did not work and who had to go through he pain of an operation without being able to communicate their situation to he doctor. > There are couple of cases of persons who born > without ability to appreciate > pain sensation, so they just don't feel the pain. > The bad news is usually > those people die from accident and self injury b/c > even when they have minor > physical harm they cannot feel it, like if they are > bleeding from a cut > wound, so they do not react. So pain does have some > protective property for > the body. It depends if we are talking in terms paramattha dhammas or in conventional terms. For example when a child is disciplined by physical punishment, he/she receives akusala vipaka and learns a lesson at the same time. The akusala vipaka is a reality, the lesson learnt is not. > 3. When the doctor put us to sleep for some > operations. He cut us but we did > feel anything b/c of the anesthesia put us under > deep sleep. I think the > pain sensation is there but we just cannot perceive > it. How does vithi citta > work when we are put to sleep under the medication? At those moments there is no condition for the experience of that particular akusala vipaka through the body door > Well, hope my topic is not totally digressed. I am > just curious. A lot of > people suffer from physical pain like in cancer > patients, as well as a lot > people in this world are dying from hunger. It’s a complex subject, but it all depends on conditions, mainly deeds committed in the past. Jon 3863 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Num I liked the honesty of your comments about reflection on the asubha nature of the body. > I used to wonder how asupa kasina can condition > kusula citta. Seeing such > state of body or seeing trauma cases with blood and > exposed internal organs > is not fun. I do empathize and want to help them to > get better. Citta rises > and falls as well as kusula and akusula. I can > tell you what really turns > me off. Some of ER cases are homeless. The smell of > body odor of a person > who has not taken a bath for couple months is > unbearable. Esp. if you take > their shoes off, it stinks, some never took their > shoes off for months. > Dosa comes and goes. Studying Buddhism remind me > that smell is just a > phenomenon not self. It comes, stays and go by > causes and conditions. I > think right understanding can be paccaya for kusula > action, metta and karuna > as well. Knowing the moments when kusala citta arises naturally, having a corpse or some aspect of foulness as the object, is the development of kusala at the level of samatha. This is to be distinguished from going to view a corpse (or viewing pictures of corpses) with the intention of developing samatha. While it is theoretically possible for kusala moments to arise in that situation, the intention for that to happen (= expectation) would probably be an obstacle to it doing so. > I have read that even the Buddha and arahats still > have pain, hunger or > thirst. Could you explain the difference between > puthujjana(worldling > person) and ariya-puggala, when they were in pain? > Just my curiosity. At the moment of experiencing the object through the body-door, no difference of any significance. But the bodily pain does not condition aversion with unpleasant feeling in the ariya-puggala. Jon 3864 From: Amara Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 4:54pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I must apologize for another mistake which Rob > pointed out, (thanks Rob, glad you're back!) I had linked the new page > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > nice!! A second apology! If you have checked out Abhidhamma and Practice, please click on 'reload'/'refresh' to review it! The page was truncated before. Intermediate section, If there is anything else please tell me, I would appreciate it! Amara 3865 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 5:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Jhana and the Eightfold Path Rob, Glad to have you back 'on board' and for your interest and support in this difficult area. A link to your new website http://www.abhidhamma.org/ has been added to the dsg homepage under 'bookmarks'. I must say that the website is off to an excellent start, full of useful materials. I'm interested to read the article on 'Abhidhamma and Vipassana' by Ven Sitagu Sayadaw which I haven't read in full before. I also just tried the Buddhist search engine you've put on the site, checking the references to 'sukkhavipassaka'...(only 11 luckily)..This may be a very useful function for others too. Please keep us informed when new materials are added as Amara does on her website. All, Perhaps I should mention (following one or two comments on the list), that although we (Jon, Rob, Amara and myself) are all good friends and have all studied w/ Khun Sujin, the websites are run independently of this discussion list and Jon and I cannot take any credit for setting them up or running them. On the other hand, Amara & Rob have actively contributed to and supported this list from the outset and they can certainly take credit for that! Sarah --- <> wrote: > > I have been reading over the discussion under this > heading and feel > it is very useful. I don't have much to add except > to say if you have > time to add exact referneces and perhaps the pali > this would be > helpful- we can have others give their thoughts more > accurately in > this way. 3866 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:39pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Coming out Hi Ann, You played such a key role all those years (read decades) ago when we met in Sri Lanka and you (indirectly) introduced me to Nina, Khun Sujin and Jonothan too...a gift I can never thank you enough for. Still as Betty has rightly pointed out, there have to be the right conditions not only to hear the dhamma, but to appreciate it also and in this regard we were both very fortunate, especially at such a young age. Since then, our lives and acummulations have taken many twists and turns and we've followed many diversions in the process. Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this list help give you the strength and patience and wisdom to pass this difficult test. With lots of gratitude and my very best wishes. Sarah --- Ann Marshall wrote: > I have been enjoying the posts now for several > months, having seen Jonothan > in Vancouver in November and learning about the list > and web site. It's > high time that I introduced myself (realizing that I > do not want to feel > like a voyeur, reading all of this, and never > indicating to those of you > that I do not know that I am here!) > > It has been many years since I participated in the > original group in > Bangkok in the l970's. While I have not been > "studying" all along in the > sense of reading and discussing, it is remarkable > how frequently dhamma > reminders crop up. Reading the posts is turning out > to be cause for a bit > more reflection. Thanks and appreciation to those > who contribute. When I > check my e-mail it is always refreshing or soothing > to know that I will > find some dhamma discussion amongst the hum drum and > business items. > I look forward to lots more. > > Ann Marshall > 3867 From: cybele chiodi Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Amara and everybody reply below: > > > Now is 4.35 am and I am still checking the messages but I have to >rush to > > the airport and jump in a flight for a job but I could not leave >without a > > message for you. > > I am so happy that you are back!!! > > I relate a lot to your writings and I feel motivated to face the >brain > > eaters if you are here, you give ne strenght! :-))) > > I am joking brain eaters...but welcome back Rob, I mean it! > > >Dear Cybele, > >Where are you headed, anywhere near BKK? > >Our band of brain eaters eagerly waiting....!!! > >;-b... >Amara > I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough bold to face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it will my pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as well. As I told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will return. I have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow the job sources you see. ;-) I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was struggling a lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have the time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence and my survival. What is most beneficial... Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out style meditation. By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted discussion and enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating. Love and respect Cybele 3868 From: <> Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 10:26pm Subject: Re: Coming out --- Sarah Procter Abbott > > Now I know you're facing a particular challenge in > your life as you wait for surgery. I hope the dhamma > reminders and the support of dhamma friends on this > list help give you the strength and patience and > wisdom to pass this difficult test. Dear Ann, Thank you for coming out. I'm looking forward to know you more on the list. Best wishes to you for your coming surgery. Best regards, Alex Tran 3869 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 7:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > I had linked the new page > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > nice!! > =========================== Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the article entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same article I read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read it more carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise definition? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3870 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 0:57am Subject: Re: Coming out Dear Ann, My cousin just had a similar surgery recently, my mother just told me, and is feeling much better than prior to the operation! May kusala keep you and keep you from worries, since as long as we have a body we must still have bodily vipaka, and can only do the best we can to care for it in order to continue to study the dhamma, Amara 3871 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:07am Subject: Re: Welcome back > I was going to Singapore this time Amara; don't worry I am enough bold to > face courageously the brain eaters and when I will be in Bangkok it will my > pleasure inform you right away - I am eager to meet everybody as well. As I > told you I keep a room in Bkk and therefore sooner or later I will return. I > have to find a sponsor in Bkk than I can stay there longer, I follow the job > sources you see. ;-) Dear Cybele, Looking forward to meeting you too, may I ask what line of work you do? Hope it brings you back here soon! And that it allows you more time to participate later on, Good luck and all the best, Amara > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately but I was struggling a > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money and did not have the > time or energy or mood for anything else than private corrispondence and my > survival. What is most beneficial... > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told Sarah, drop out style > meditation. > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our interrupted discussion and > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it partecipating. 3872 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:14am Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > > I had linked the new page > > to the wrong address, sorry, all! Please check it out again, it's so > > nice!! > > > =========================== > Now I am confused. Have I read the wrong article? I read the article > entitled "Vedana" under the heading "A Few Words". That is the same article I > read before. Is it possible that it is unchanged, but I simply read it more > carefully this time, and with the intention to see a precise definition? Dear Howard, I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By Nina VG. It's in the intermediate section than , it was the one with all the little glitches, now fixed. Please see if you like this one too, Enjoy, Amara 3873 From: Date: Sun Mar 11, 2001 9:12pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' Hi, Amara - > Dear Howard, > > I put up a new article last night called 'Abhidhamma and Practice' By > Nina VG. It's in the intermediate section than > , it was the one with all the little > glitches, now fixed. Please see if you like this one too, > > Enjoy, > > Amara > ===================================== I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two additional comments: (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the condition for the arising of insight. The article specifically states the following: ********************************************************************* Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of consciousness.Ā We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can arise when there are the appropriate conditions.Ā All namas and rupas in our life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our will.Ā The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways.Ā Nama and rupa which appear now ā€“ thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects about which right understanding should be developed.Ā When we read in the Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can condition the arising of mindfulness.Ā Even one moment of mindfulness is valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right understanding can grow.Ā The development of insight is the highest form of wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attacment, aversion and ignorance. ****************************************** I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further in the direction of practice could be added. But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its kind I have seen! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3874 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:09am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Amara >Dear Cybele, > >Looking forward to meeting you too, may I ask what line of work you >do? Hope it brings you back here soon! And that it allows you more >time to participate later on, > >Good luck and all the best, > >Amara Thanks for the good wishes and encouragement. Hope right conditions arises to bring me back to Bkk and meet all of you. May you be well and happy Cybele 3875 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:29am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] TNH, study/practice Dear Yacov, I'm sorry for the delay. Thank you for sharing the extract and your note at the end... This is all very interesting and I hope you don't mind if I make one or two comments? Also, I hope you don't mind if I just take out one or two key phrases so that this doesn't turn out too long? --- wrote: > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Mindfulness has been described as the act of > recognizing things as they are, > mere recognition of what is there. When we see a > rose blooming, we recognize > there is a rose blooming. When we see that the rose > is beautiful, we say, > “the rose is beautiful”, simple recognition of what > is there. O.K. I understand the gist. We could say there is a common concern with the Buddha's Teachings with what is being experienced at the present moment. However, from the point of view of the dhamma, and particularly the abhidhamma, we know that a rose, however beautiful, is concept and that in reality only visible object is seen, the fragrance smelt and so on... You do not try > to tie it to you, to possess it, to be attached to > it, or to run away from > it, to suppress it or discriminate against it. O.K, we'd say that the more precise the understanding, the more detachment (as oposed to attachment) will develop of its own accord. >I > repeat this, if it is a > pleasant feeling, recognize it simply as a pleasant > feeling, not to be > attached to it, not try to possess it, not try to > make it last longer. If > you do, you will suffer, because everything is > impermanent, including your > pleasant feeling. So, whether or not the pleasant > feeling is there, you are > a free person and that is the key to your happiness. My difficulty here is that there seems to be an underlying idea of self as in 'you are a free person' and 'you will suffer'. Realities are impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory (dukkha). No other being. Understanding the anataness of these realities is the key to 'freedom'. There are other references to 'you can get it' which also suggest an idea of self to me. I do agree (rather the dhamma does agree) with the emphasis on knowing the experience at the present moment. However, I think we need to be very precise about what the present moment or present reality is, otherwise there will always be the idea that roses and sitting and walking and self really exist. > Regarding your question about studies and practice: > if practice is a fire > (hopefully burning itself out) then “studies” > (occasional readings of > sutras, dharma talks and articles, except for 5 > items that I read regularly) > are breezes that clear away the ashes and allow the > fire burn more strongly. > So, yes, for me it is “part and parcel” of the > practice. O.K. I see your point...my only comment here is that it's important that this fire (of practice) is not only burning strongly but in the right direction....if it burns strongly in the wrong direction, it's easy to get burnt! So it's very important that there are the right breezes (i.e. the right consideration and understanding)!! Best wishes with the fire and please let me know if you have any different ideas about the right breeze! Best regards, Sarah 3876 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:21am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! Hi K.Amara, I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but I always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there is the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them or they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for life, work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? A plus tard, Num 3877 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:36am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi Jon, << Knowing the moments when kusala citta arises naturally, having a corpse or some aspect of foulness as the object, is the development of kusala at the level of samatha. This is to be distinguished from going to view a corpse (or viewing pictures of corpses) with the intention of developing samatha. >> Thanks for your input. Let me ask you about vipaka. As K Amara mentioned earlier in this thread that body consciousness (kaya-vinnana) can have only two different kinds of vedana accompanied: dukkha or sukha vedana, not upekkha vedana. But, as I understand, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting can have only upekkha vedana accompany them when they arise, no matter they are akusula or kusula vipaka in nature. Let me put the questions this way: What exactly it means by akusula-vipaka-cakkhu-vinnana(akusula seeing consciousness) ? We see color, how can seeing consciousness be kusula or akusula? Definitely, color is not vipaka, not nama, or kammajarupa. Cakkhu-vinnana recognize only color, and can accompany only by upekkha vedana. As you said, pleasant or unpleasant citta arises way long after seeing consciousness. The point that is not clear to me is by what basis we categorize akusula vipaka from kusula. Let me use asupa kasina again. To see a body is such stages is akusula or a kusula vipaka. Or seeing good looking person, is it kusula or akusula? In some persons seeing a corpse causes aversion, in other causes jhana. Seeing good looking person, can lead to doing bad deed in some and in other can lead to enlightenment. I faintly recall a sutta that a beautiful woman was passing by a monk and she was smiling. For that monk, he was aware of asupa of the clean and white teeth of that beautiful woman and he became ariya-puggala in that moment. Well, is my question clear? Num 3878 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 0:37pm Subject: Re: a hair-splitting sutta! --- <> wrote: > --- "Jim Anderson" <> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > one of these split hairs is attached to an egg-plant. Then > another split > > hair is attached to the tip of an arrow with the hair parallel to > the shaft > > and in front of the arrowhead. The sharp-shooter then stands at a > distance > > of 1 usabha (50 meters -- 320 usabhas = 1 yojana = 16 kms) from the > > egg-plant target and tries to split the tip of its attached hair > with the > > hair-tip of the arrow he shoots. At least this is how I picture it. > This > > sutta really drives home the point of just how difficult it is to > realize > > nibbana. > > So true Jim. One aeon is so long that the number of times we have > died and then been reborn during this aeon would be hard to fathom. > And the number of aeons is more than the grains of sand in the entire > ocean. > During this long, long time very rarely have we heard the Dhamma. And > even when we did, just like now, it was hard to distinguish the real > one from imitations. > The end of samsara will not come by wanting or willpower. Still, if > the right conditions are present then wisdom must grow, albeit ever > so slowly. As wisdom grows- the wisdom that sees the utter anattaness > of every moment- so too other parami are gradually developed. They > can go strong because the more anatta is seen the more easy it > becomes to help others, to give up the unessential, to not be > sidetracked down empty avenues, and to face death bravely- as we will > have to do many times before the true path is fulfilled. > rob Dear Rob, This reminds me of what one of my favorite lecturers at the foundation once said. He was sorry that he only recently found the true dhamma, after a long search, and has only begun to understand it these thirty years!!!!! It must be said that he is over seventy, but still… He is actually a sort of hero to me because he once was ordained for a very long time and was a very strict samadhi practitioner with lots of followers, monks and laypeople alike, all of whom were convinced he had attained arahantship. They even thought he could fly and he once jumped off a cliff and survived, making even more people flock to him, so think of the mana he must have had! Then one day he heard Khun Sujin teaching and realized he had not attained even the first vipassana nana (out of the 16 pre-sotapanna levels). His understanding of vipassana is exemplary at present, and he is extremely well read in the Tipitaka as well as counts among the Pali experts. My point is, I guess, that the true student of the dhamma would be able to realize what the truth of his own understanding is, if there is sati. Although those who do not study realities might think they have attained levels of higher wisdom, the vipassana 'meditators' would generally be able to recognize the strength of their own right understanding. Have they really eradicated their uncertainty as a result of panna accumulated to the right power, so that it does its duty automatically, by eradicating uncertainty of the meanings of the dhamma they studied in theory, replacing it with the permanent comprehension of realities, according to the level of panna reached? If there is still undertainty about the characteristics of the nama and rupa appearing presently, how could there have been the first as well as lowest and weakest of vipassana nana? One can understand the theories with careful examination, but the study of reality as they appear is, as you said, a very long, arduous path which takes much patience and perseverance. It is not just within the Tipitaka that realities arise and fall away with blinding speed, but in daily life, right now, in front of our very eyes, when we think we see and think and hear and touch all at the same time. In reality each dhamma arises and falls away with its specific characteristics, which could add to our knowledge at all times. Which is why the Buddha taught us to be brave and cheerful in the dhamma and the accumulation of panna, the only thing that can counter this eternal imprisonment within samsara. At least we are moving and not standing still or rushing ahead. Anumodana to all who study, Amara 3879 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 8:07am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Pain? Hi all, I just looked up accesstoinsight, and the following sutta mentioned about the difference between puthujana and ariya-puggala when they have pain. Num Click here: SN XXXVI.6: Sallatha Sutta Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 Sallatha Sutta The Arrow For free distribution only, as a gift of Dhamma Read an alternate translation ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. A well-instructed disciple of the noble ones also feels feelings of pleasure, feelings of pain, feelings of neither-pleasure-nor-pain. So what difference, what distinction, what distinguishing factor is there between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person?" "For us, lord, the teachings have the Blessed One as their root, their guide, & their refuge. It would be good if the Blessed One himself would explicate the meaning of this statement. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the monks will remember it." "In that case, monks, listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any latent tendency to resistance toward that painful feeling comes latently into play. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person does not discern any escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is delighting in sensual pleasure, any latent tendency to passion toward that feeling of pleasure comes latently into play. He does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling. As he does not discern the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then any latent tendency to ignorance toward a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain comes latently into play. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it as though joined with it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it as though joined with it. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person joined with birth, aging, & death; with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is joined, I tell you, with suffering & stress. "Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No latent tendency to resistance toward that painful feeling comes latently into play. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. Why is that? Because the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns an escape from painful feeling aside from sensual pleasure. As he is not delighting in sensual pleasure, no latent tendency to passion toward that feeling of pleasure comes latently into play. He discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling. As he discerns the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, and escape from that feeling, no latent tendency to ignorance toward a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain comes latently into play. "Sensing a feeling of pleasure, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of pain, he senses it disjoined from it. Sensing a feeling of neither-pleasure-nor-pain, he senses it disjoined from it. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones disjoined from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is disjoined, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "This is the difference, this the distinction, this the distinguishing factor between the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones and the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person." The discerning person, learned, doesn't sense a (mental) feeling of pleasure or pain: This is the difference in skillfulness between the sage & the person run-of-the-mill. For a learned person who has fathomed the Dhamma, clearly seeing this world & the next, desirable things don't charm the mind, undesirable ones bring no resistance. His acceptance & rejection are scattered, gone to their end, do not exist. Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state, he discerns rightly, has gone, beyond becoming, to the Further Shore. 3880 From: amara chay Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is >on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but >I >always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there >is >the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new >language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and >Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them >or >they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for >life, >work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. > >I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. >And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you >recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? Dear K. Num, It's wonderful to see your viriya in acquiring knowledge, especially the most beneficial one, the dhamma, and as you see it covers all areas of our lives at each moment, at work or at play, all can benefit from the knowledge of the dhamma and your knowledge of the dhamma can grow from the each and every moment in life as well. Even for the akusla moments when no sati arises, the next instant is a different one where there could be study of the akusala that had just fallen away as well! And nothing stops akusala as efficiently as knowledge of it, don't you think? Just at that tiny instant, then anger may or may not arise again, according to conditions. As may awareness, to know it and other things that present themselves, again. Je n'y connais presque rien, en Pali, mais la personne qui vous en direz beaucoup plus est Jim Anderson, vous pouvez l'ecrire vous-meme, il serait enchante que cela vous interresse! Il est notre grand expert a nous sur la liste. Nous en avons de la chance, n'est-ce pas? A bientot, mon ami, Amara 3881 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:09pm Subject: Re: Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' > I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two > additional comments: > > (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the > condition for the arising of insight. The article specifically states the > following: > ********************************************************************* > Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of > consciousness.Ā We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can > arise when there are the appropriate conditions.Ā All namas and rupas in our > life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our > will.Ā The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of > what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways.Ā > Nama and rupa which appear now ā€" thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects > about which right understanding should be developed.Ā When we read in the > Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through > the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand > what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can > condition the arising of mindfulness.Ā Even one moment of mindfulness is > valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right > understanding can grow.Ā The development of insight is the highest form of > wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attacment, aversion and > ignorance. > ****************************************** > I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the > other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as > concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. > (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of > the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm > and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further > in the direction of practice could be added. > But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its > kind I have seen! Dear Howard, At the website you will have seen many other articles by Nina, Sarah and Robert could point you to many more of the same. Please look also at the free books offered all our members by Jon, Sarah and Sukin, I'm sure you will find some (or all) that you would like to have. We are there because we love to vicariously enjoy your discovery of writings like these, anumodana, Amara 3882 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:33pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa WARNING..another serious brain-cruncher Dear Jim, Num & Amara, (& Teng & Rob at the end) I rather delayed on this one as it needed some research and there always seem to be so many other interesting points raised on the list....which are easier for me! --- Jim Anderson wrote: > I ahould have done better! I have found some more > passages for these five > qualities or states at Vism. II.83-4. The ref. to > them at II.1 is a little > vague and are not all named there. The > Anguttaranikaya com. (AA i 160ff) > seems to be similar to what is translated at Vism. > II.80ff. Dhuta, > dhutavaada, dhutadhamma, & dhutanga are the terms > discussed in the Vism. > passage and one should be clear about what these > terms are referring when > using them. The five dhutadhammas are also given at > AN V.181 (A iii 219). Jim, I could have done rather better too if I'd read the whole section in the Vism. more thoroughly at the outset.... Anyway, this is what I think I've learnt from following your references: 1. dhuta- ascetic, shaken off, ascetic in the sense of one who shakes of defilements (kilesa) 2. anga- practice 3. dhutanga- ascetic practice, set of practices leading to a state appropriate to a dhuta, i.e. 13 dhutangas as Num listed 4. dhutadhamma- ascetic state, i.e. 5 qualities or states mentioned before, starting with fewness of wishes, having shaken off the defilements. These apply to either a bhikkhu or layperson. 5. dhutavaada- one who inculcates asceticism as above. (I'm not sure the terms ascetic and asceticism aren't a little misleading, but that's another story). Is this about right, Jim? Originally this issue was raised because I mentioned in a translation that MahaKassapa was known to be foremost in 'shaking off'. One point I'm a little confused by is that earlier you (Jim) mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking off' was dhutanga and I should have thought it should be dhutadhamma..., but not too important.. > > I'm not sure where you're going with this in regards > to SN XVI.13, the > Saddhammapatiruupakasutta. In its commentary there > is an interesting section > on pariyatti, pa.tipatti, and adhigamo. "When > scriptural learning is > declining, the practice declines: when the practice > is declining, attainment > declines. When scriptural learning is being > fulfilled, individuals holding > the scriptural learning fulfill the practice, > fulfilling the practice they > fulfill accomplishment." (SA ii 204). I have seen > other similar passages > that make it quite clear that pariyatti (scriptural > learning) is a condition > (paccaya) for pa.tipatti (practice), and pa.tipatti > is a condition for > adhigamo (attainment). Yes, this is useful and the same point that has been stressed in other posts. In this sutta it also såys '..when a counterfeit of the true dhamma arises in the world, then the true dhamma disappears'. In the comm. note (B.Bodhis' translation), it says there are 'two counterfeits of the true Dhamma (saddhammapatirupaka); one with respect to attainment (adhigama), the other with respect to learning (pariyatti).....The latter consists of texts other than the authentic Word of the Buddha.....' and so on. o.K. that was an interesting diversion. The reason this sutta was raised originally (by Teng) was with regard to the importance of jhanas. The sutta goes on to mention 5 conditions that lead to 'the longevity of the true Dhamma'. The 5th one is samadhi (concentration) and the comm. note adds 'One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo).' There are several variations in the details of several suttas (including this one). Amara asked K.Sujin about this and this is what Amara reported to me off-list: 'The main idea is still there. Just because the detail of one sutta is different from others, doesn't mean that they exclude one another, especially if one ponders the meaning of the word samadhi. Samadhi means peacefulness, exempt from lobha, dosa and moha. Again it is incorporated in vipassana. Just because this sutta doesn't mention vipassana doesn't mean that the samadhi there is not samma samadhi.' Well, there's still a bit of a question for me about the attha samapattiyo (8 jhanic attainments in the comm note) but will leave it for now.....!! As we've mentioned before, it is interesting that even at this time while the Buddha was still alive, that the number of arahats was declining...due to the 'Counterfeit of the True Dhamma'. it's quite amazing that there is still the True Dhamma left to study at all.... In appreciation of those who have diligently worked to preserve it. Apologies for all the diversions! Sarah 3883 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 2:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Cybele, I've come running to you as an escape from my own brain-crunching!! --- cybele chiodi wrote: > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately > but I was struggling a > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money > and did not have the > time or energy or mood for anything else than > private corrispondence and my > survival. What is most beneficial... > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told > Sarah, drop out style > meditation. Please don't worry about how active you are on the list. No one should feel under any pressure to respond...in your own time, in your own colouful way is fine.... Yes, all those material challenges can be a drag, but this is daily life. The great thing about dynamic and drop-out meditation is that you can practise them AND earn money at the same time....and deal with all the other chores and hassles that make up the day. All those realities/actualities such as those visible objects and sounds, the likes and dislikes appearing now, are just as real at these times as when you're settled on your cushion. They're just there to be known and just going to waste if we have any idea that it's not the right time or they're too difficult!! > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our > interrupted discussion and > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it > partecipating. Cybele, you're certainly participating by just keeping up-to-date with us all...it's good to know we haven't scared/annoyed you off...take your time and I hope you get the material needs in order!! love and respect to you too, Sarah 3884 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a history Betty, many thanks for this.... --- "Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" wrote: > Hello Sarah, > OK, will give you a bit of my history, although the > only lesson from it that > I can see that might benefit others is that one > would only begin to study > abhidhamma when the conditions are right for it. Good point. Isn't it still true now? Even though we know the value (in theory mostly) of studying abhidhamma and developing direct understanding of it too, most the time our defilements (kilesa) entice us in other directions! >It > seems that for all my > years in Thailand, Achaan had been within an arm's > reach, so to speak, but > either I didn't know it at the time or I was not > ready. For people like us or Ann who met Achaan (Khun Sujin) a long, long time ago, still we're not ready to hear the dhamma or enticed away most the time! Conditions are very complex...given the set of ingredients at any given time, how could the outcome be any different? Take care, Betty and hoping your son is also benefiting as we are from the dhamma. If he has access to a computer, he may be interested to check out the websites and also to join this list. Best wishes, Sarah 3885 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 7:01pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! Dear Num I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly Italian and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should write from Bangkok and I live there. I am just searching for a new job. :-))) As you said nothing is impossible... I am joking Num. Good luck in your studies. However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. Love and respect Cybele >From: >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: a hair-splitting sutta! >Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:21:12 EST > >Hi K.Amara, > >I am trying to learn French, Spanish and some Italian. definitely, Pali is >on the list. As I said learning language is not in my primary nature, but >I >always tell myself, nothing is impossible. Where there is the will, there >is >the way. I have found that the most important aspect of studying new >language is to use it. Couple of my very good friends are French and >Italian, so I have a chance to speak their languages when I go to see them >or >they come to see me. I have to organize and prioritize my time for >life, >work, fun and dhamma study is filled in all of those, definitely. > >I have series of introduction to Pali both in Thai and in English by PTS. >And I am going to order Pali-Thai and Pali-English dictionary. Could you >recommend some good Pali dictionaries or studying books? > >A plus tard, > >Num > 3886 From: cybele chiodi Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:23pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Sarah >> >Dear Cybele, > >I've come running to you as an escape from my own >brain-crunching!! > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > I am sorry I could not be active in the list lately > > but I was struggling a > > lot to cope with material challenges, job and money > > and did not have the > > time or energy or mood for anything else than > > private corrispondence and my > > survival. What is most beneficial... > > Well this is really my dynamic meditation as I told > > Sarah, drop out style > > meditation. > >Please don't worry about how active you are on the >list. No one should feel under any pressure to >respond...in your own time, in your own colouful way >is fine.... I don't feel under pressure to participate; I just appreciate when I can share with others and deepen the insight on the various issues while writing, it's a kind of inner dialogue above all and after the interaction with the group. But I enjoy listening as well, don't hurrying up in search a proper response but just stay open and permeable while reading. >Yes, all those material challenges can be >a drag, but this is daily life. The great thing about >dynamic and drop-out meditation is that you can >practise them AND earn money at the same time....and >deal with all the other chores and hassles that make >up the day. Well as I was just commenting with Rob recently I am more and more persuaded that my way of developing awareness is definetly on daily life and I see that right conditions to get deep insights in reality can arise anytime, even in the midst of severe strain, therefore I don't feel the urge like once to seclude myself in long retreats in order to focuse my mind and develop calm and knowledge of Dhamma. There is no retreat that can 'recharge' your 'content of mindfulness' but just this lifelong lasting retreat of ordinary life-wisdom and compassion. > >All those realities/actualities such as those visible >objects and sounds, the likes and dislikes appearing >now, are just as real at these times as when you're >settled on your cushion. They're just there to be >known and just going to waste if we have any idea that >it's not the right time or they're too difficult!! Indeed Sarah, I was supposed to leave to Italy to assist a monk translating for him commiting myself for two months in a retreat and as it happens kamma dispose in a different way of 'my plans' and I realized I cannot afford to stay two months without working facing the true reality of my financial conditions and had to renounce. And I am not regretting as I feel that despite all this troubles, is a period of intense deepening of the teachings inside me and even when it hurts a lot somehow I can see through the tearful eyes of my mind. And I am just practicing with the same determination and commitment as when I am in a retreat. Walking on the path of present moment, understanding reality without big aspirations but just keep going. Well but I must say that I have good dhamma friends helping me with their support to accept and understand all my emotional mess and I am grateful to Dhamma as to my kamma that put them along my way. > > > By the way Sarah, sorry I will be resuming our > > interrupted discussion and > > enjoy the sharing, just I could not really make it > > partecipating. > >Cybele, you're certainly participating by just keeping >up-to-date with us all...it's good to know we haven't >scared/annoyed you off...take your time and I hope you >get the material needs in order!! > >love and respect to you too, >Sarah > Thank you Sarah; I hope to improve a bit my material conditions but I am just trying to accept whatever comes and not trying to exercize that much control as anyway, it's a vain effort. There is nothing that can be controlled... Love and respect Cybele > 3887 From: Amara Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 11:18pm Subject: Re: a history > Betty, > > many thanks for this.... Dear Sarah, Just to tell you Betty will probably not see this for a few days, unless there is internet access and/or enough time for her to look in- She's travelling with her husband at the moment! Amara 3888 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:24pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, > I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly Italian > and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. > We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should write > from Bangkok and I live there. > I am just searching for a new job. :-))) > As you said nothing is impossible... > I am joking Num. > Good luck in your studies. > However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. Well, sound like a good deal for me. I live in the States, St.Louis, Missouri. But, I plan to move back to BKK in couple of years from now. So, I will keep your profile in my folder. Keep me post if you still be available in couple years from now. Never say never, thing can happen if there are right causes and conditions. So, you have changed your mind within the same mail. Joking or serious!!!! I met about a hundred of Italian in Guatemala and Mexico on my vacation. I flew and joined my friend there, she's from Italy. So, I met a lot of Italian. Friendly, nice, touchy and a little crazy, that's my impression of the Italian. <> Let me respond and jump into your mail to Sarah. Anumodhana in your good intention and good deed. Wish you will find a job soon. Emotion comes and goes, don't let it hit you like a 2nd or 3rd arrow. Hope you are not feel helpless and hopeless. Where there is the will, there is the way. The greatest wealth is contentment. Good luck, Num 3889 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 0:53am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num, >>Hi Cybele, > > > > > I am able to teach you all the languages you mentioned particularly >Italian > > and you can add Portuguese to the list as is my mother tongue. > > We could make arrangements! If I didn't understand wrongly you should >write > > from Bangkok and I live there. > > I am just searching for a new job. :-))) > > As you said nothing is impossible... > > I am joking Num. > > Good luck in your studies. > > However if you need clarifications I can help you and now I am serious. > >Well, sound like a good deal for me. I live in the States, St.Louis, >Missouri. But, I plan to move back to BKK in couple of years from now. >So, >I will keep your profile in my folder. Keep me post if you still be >available in couple years from now. Never say never, thing can happen if >there are right causes and conditions. So, you have changed your mind >within the same mail. Joking or serious!!!! I met about a hundred of >Italian in Guatemala and Mexico on my vacation. I flew and joined my >friend >there, she's from Italy. So, I met a lot of Italian. Friendly, nice, >touchy and a little crazy, that's my impression of the Italian. Well I am not Italian, I am Brazilian and for me they are pretty moderate indeed, almost slow and conventional! ;-) I lived in Italy for many years and I am descendant of Italians and Portuguese folks therefore you can just guess the explosive mixage of Latin blood. I was joking with you, I don't live anywhere and everywhere, I am a nomadic and I keep moving but I am in Southeast Asia presently in Penang, Malaysia. And if the right conditions arises we can meet anywhere; we are already doing the approach in the aether. ><translating >for him committing myself for two months in a retreat and as it happens >kamma >dispose in a different way of 'my plans' and I realized I cannot afford to >stay two months without working facing the true reality of my financial >conditions and had to renounce.>> > >Let me respond and jump into your mail to Sarah. Anumodhana in your good >intention and good deed. Wish you will find a job soon. Emotion comes and >goes, don't let it hit you like a 2nd or 3rd arrow. Hope you are not feel >helpless and hopeless. Where there is the will, there is the way. I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just flowing with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. thank you for your encouragement and dhamma friends help me a lot in my struggles just being close and supportive with their loving kindness that gives me strenght to investigate my mind and don't get stuck in my perplexities and suffering. I am particularly grateful to my good friend Robert that has to put up with my whinings. He is very patient; a coldblooded, detached anglosaxon man with a hotblooded, passionate latin woman, so goes the label. :-) Please Rob resist, you are making many merits, I am sure!!! It's pretty hard but I am confident I am planting seeds of knowledge; I am just careful to don't be too eager to pick up the fruits. > >The greatest wealth is contentment. Well moderation is difficult for me. But I am content, let's say I am happy with Dhamma and my dhamma friends and I can still acknowledge it even when I am in deep pain. > >Good luck, > >Num > Thank you Num and if you need help in your studies let me know. My Italian is perfect not like my clumsy English, you can rely on. Love and respect Cybele 3890 From: Jim Anderson Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:25am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] MahaKassapa Dear Sarah, >Jim, I could have done rather better too if I'd read >the whole section in the Vism. more thoroughly at the >outset.... > >Anyway, this is what I think I've learnt from >following your references: > >1. dhuta- ascetic, shaken off, ascetic in the sense of >one who shakes of defilements (kilesa) > >2. anga- practice 'anga' also has the meaning of factor, limb, member. >3. dhutanga- ascetic practice, set of practices >leading to a state appropriate to a dhuta, i.e. 13 >dhutangas as Num listed > >4. dhutadhamma- ascetic state, i.e. 5 qualities or >states mentioned before, starting with fewness of >wishes, having shaken off the defilements. These apply >to either a bhikkhu or layperson. > >5. dhutavaada- one who inculcates asceticism as above. >(I'm not sure the terms ascetic and asceticism aren't >a little misleading, but that's another story). I not so sure about the appropriateness of ascetic or asceticism either. >Is this about right, Jim? Originally this issue was >raised because I mentioned in a translation that >MahaKassapa was known to be foremost in 'shaking off'. It should be noted that Mahakassapa was foremost of those who preached asceticism (dhammavaada) according to A i 23. Your last sentence is referring to 'dhuta' only, but I would assume that he was foremost in that as well. >One point I'm a little confused by is that earlier you >(Jim) mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking >off' was dhutanga and I should have thought it should >be dhutadhamma..., but not too important.. I only wrote one earlier message on this topic to dsg and I don't see where I mentioned the Pali for excellence in 'shaking off' as dhutanga. I did mention dhutanga but gave no translation of the term. I was only giving references to where you could find more information on the terms I listed. As I remember, it began with a verse you mentioned from the Theragatha (v.1087) where the word there is 'dhutaguna' which Norman translates as 'the qualities of shaking off' and I thought that these qualities could be the five dhutadhammas. On looking at ThagA comm. I think I may be wrong as there is only the mention of aara~n~nika, etc. (dhutangas 6-13 if I'm reading it correctly). I know that gu.na (quality) is one of the 20 or more shades of meaning for dhamma and that is why I made the connection between dhutagu.na and dhutadhamma. But the comm. is suggesting a different connection and I don't understand why. >The reason this sutta was raised originally (by Teng) >was with regard to the importance of jhanas. The sutta >goes on to mention 5 conditions that lead to 'the >longevity of the true Dhamma'. The 5th one is samadhi >(concentration) and the comm. note adds 'One dwells >without reverence for concentration when one does not >attain the eight attainments (attha samapattiyo).' I checked this commentarial note at SA ii 205 and my rough reading of the Pali is: "Without producing the eight attainments or, furthermore, without making the effort to produce them is called 'without reverence for concentration'." Best wishes, Jim A. 3891 From: Date: Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:07pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just flowing > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. When you mentioned about the flow, it reminded me of a sutta regarding four types of people, used the flow as an allegorical mean of communication. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-5.html Don't let the flow take you too far. Num 3892 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:30am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num and all >Hi Cybele, > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I am just >flowing > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > >When you mentioned about the flow, it reminded me of a sutta regarding four >types of people, used the flow as an allegorical mean of communication. > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an4-5.html > >Don't let the flow take you too far. > >Num > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two individuals as the last two could not apply to me. "These four types of individuals are to be found existing in the world. Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the individual who goes against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one who has crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a brahmin. "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is the case where an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil deeds. This is called the individual who goes with the flow." "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is the case where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and doesn't do evil deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be with sorrow, even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the holy life that is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes against the flow." As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and pure' I suppose I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the passionate ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the crucial point is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not simply indulging in it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any forceful means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is not conditions arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. Makes you feel inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't improve as a matter of fact. And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble knowledge. I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and I can work out my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present nature; otherwise in my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect buddhists that take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot even be humorous of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. They really believe it and take themselves seriously. Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my fellows human beings. And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just happens and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it be. I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives lasting process of inner evolution. I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with a knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' to feel much more reassured and less ignorant. Exchanging the idea if self to clinging to an spiritual self - but self is always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non escape. I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on fake securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the same boat without trying to row against the stream. But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our mind of illusions. Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take it or leave it but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and 'control' our nature with suppression. Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for another and never wake up from this dream. That's my understanding for now, the insight I am able to get into my nature. If this is called 'indulging in my passions', well that's it for now. I don't judge is is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am and try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive with my knowledge dear Num. Love and respect Cybele 3893 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:54am Subject: Brief intro Hi, My name's Erik Radmall, and I presently live in New York City (though I am planning on moving to Thailand within the next year or two if circumstances permit). I found the Dhammastudy site while I was doing a little on-line research to clarify a few points I'd come across in Nina Van Gorkom's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." Amara was very kind in pointing me to this site. I consider this a very fortuitous discovery, as when I was in Bangkok last month, I inquired about Abhidhamma studies there, and was given Khun Sujim's name. (After wandering around, getting lost, winding up somehow at Wat Saket, still without finding Khun Sujim, I had to temporarily abandon my search since my time was running short and I had to return home.) I was surprised to learn she was also Nina Van Gorkom's teacher. That excellent little book has been all I've been able to find of any substance on Abhidhamma in English translation, aside from some unpublished English translations I have of the Abhidharmakosa from my teachers. I am a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism in the Geluk lineage, and a student of Geshe Lobsang Tharchin, abbot of Sera Mey monastery, and my main interest at the moment is Abhidharma studies (as well as logic and debate), as I know for sure I need to improve my conceptual understanding of the various process elaborated in Abhidharma. Presently I'm interested in getting a solid foundation in the Pali Abhidharma as a springboard to studying Master Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakosa. I have to add I'm a rank beginner in Abhidharma, though I've been trying my best to memorize whatever Pali terms I come across (not easy!). There are a number of questions that have been accumulating in the course of my reading as well, and I hope someone here would be willing to help clarify some of them. I am hoping if I make any mistakes in terminology or understanding, that those with undersatnding will feel free to clarify and correct any misunderstandings I have. Once I've read as many of the posts here as I can I'll hopefully find some clarification for some of my present questions. So far the calibre of discussion is higher than anything I've yet seen on-line, and am very much looking forward to participating here. Cheers, Erik 3894 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:56am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back - correction Sorry I forgot to type an essential word and here I correct: >>>That's my understanding for now, the insight I am able to get into my >nature. >If this is called 'indulging in my passions', well that's it for now. >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. > >The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive with my >knowledge dear Num. > >Love and respect >Cybele > 3895 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:38am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hello all, I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of this degree present. (As an aside, I feel qualified to comment on this particular issue for a number of reasons, particularly given my lama's teachers were also the Dalai Lama's private tutors, and I've been lucky enough to have instruction from some of the Geluk lineage's most highly qualified teachers in the same system the Dalai Lama was trained in.) Sarah wrote: > >Another 'dilemma'! > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of the Dalai Lama's > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada sayings which one > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their references to > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. > >Sarah Sarah, I am curious as to what teachings specifically you disagree with in regard to emptiness? I am assuming by disagreeing you're implying these teachings on emptiness are characterized by ditthi somehow. If you believe this is true, what ditthi in specific do you see in the teachings on emptiness? aweller wrote: > Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many great > disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in Dhamma and not any > particular individual. As far I know this would also be in Tibetan texts. That is correct. The Four Reliances ("rely on the Dharma not the teacher") are mentioned frequently in the Tibetan systems I'm aware of. > Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or layman unless what > they said conformes to his teachings. That is also correct. Though given the context of this quote I hope you're not implying the Dalai Lama doesn't conform to the Buddha's teachings. If you are implying this, then I am curious to know the basis for this judgment. > Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by attacking > wrong view and I do not see any way around this. For many Dharma practitioners in the Tibetan vein this could be seen as a very divisive statement. I am curious to know what this ditthi is you refer to in the Tibetan presentation of the Dharma. Specifics would be helpful, because specifics count for a bunch when it comes to the principle of emptiness/no-self/dependent origination. Again, please understand I am responding to this post because I see an entire legitimate Dharma tradition being tarred with a very broad brush here. I do not believe it in the least beneficial to say an entire tradition teaches 'wrong view' without establishing first why you believe it's wrong view. Also, speaking for myself, I'm not in the least put off by others' opinions no matter what they are, so feel free to say whatever you like withuot fear of offending me. I am very interested in understanding your collective reasoning on this matter, and how you have arrived at your conclusions. 3896 From: <> Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:49am Subject: Re: Welcome back - correction --- "cybele chiodi" wrote: > >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept what I am > >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. Dear Cybele, How true! Oh, yes, it is extremely difficult to live up to 'buddhsists expectations'! In fact, I think that it's even harder than attaining liberation itself. :-))) With Metta, Alex Tran 3897 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:34am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Cybele, Sound like you are pretty passionate and temperamental. I like that. I think this Anusota sutta is good for dsg discussion then. First of all, let me talk about the sutta and then about your opinion. You are pretty opinionated :)) As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a symbol, symbol of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we communicated, with pannatti. I like to say that reality is not in the tipitaka---> what do I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always constantly changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. OK, this is just my intellectual understanding... <<>> What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe that "self, my self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no you and no meI!!! What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I hold the phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or you, and hold it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled in with many people and things. What we take for self or person are actually changing phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do kusula deed, it means you are going against the flow. Every time we do unwholesome deed, we are sweeping by the flow. Flow of what, flow of endless causes and conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We cannot cross this flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great miracle, no magic or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, quiet friend call samma-dhitti or right understanding. Can we cross the flow by being good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow by living totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and more tempted for who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme cannot take you across the flow. What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time bold and at times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no you and me. Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent act will take us no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is doing without doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome deed, there will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled with many stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or want, I think at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara river or great bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a sinful man, at time enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. <<>> As I mentioned, every time right understanding arises, that moment is a holy, prefect and pure. We are not holy in abhidhamma sense by doing something that most people cannot do, by being deludedly good, by able to meet whatever standard and not just because we are wearing white or yellow robe. As we discussed earlier about the middle path. As K.Amara's add. the middle way is here and now and always accompany by right understanding. Definitely it's not a paved road with clear and well written signs. <<>> I wish you a good and safe journey. Hope you meet good friends along the way and if possible help other people along the way as well. Hey, who know, probably we are on the same road. See you when I see you. :) Best wishes, Num 3898 From: Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:10am Subject: Dhamma for beginners Dear Friends, Achaan has asked me to write up a book of dhamma for real beginners, those whose knowledge is zero, or close to it. One section will include how to begin that study, what steps to take to start on the path of dhamma. Would greatly appreciate any ideas you may have for me that I might incorporate into that write up. Am off to Turkey until the 23rd, but much anumodhana in advance for all your help. with metta, Betty __________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala 38 Soi 41 Phaholyothin Road Bangkok 10900, Thailand tel: 662-579-1050; 661-826-7160 3899 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:19am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Erik, Welcome to the discussion. I am a co-founder of this group and a friend and student of nina van gorkom and Sujin Boriharnwanaket. I greatly appreciate your obvious interest in Abhidhammadhamma as you explained in your intro. On the points you mention about criticisms of the Dalai lamas teaching. I would perhaps not be inclined to go into this as I have found most Buddhists very attached to their own viewpoint (myself included) and thus any criticism simply provokes anger and bitterness. I think this sensitivity among Buddhists is why so many writers simply infer all paths are pretty much the same. It allows everyone to feel good. However, your final note: >>>Also, speaking for myself, I'm not in the least put off by > others' > opinions no matter what they are, so feel free to say whatever > you > like withuot fear of offending me. I am very interested in > understanding your collective reasoning on this matter, and > how you > have arrived at your conclusions.>>>> made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is right. Am I correct in this? Are you open enough to accept that what you currently believe with regard to tibetan teachings could be wrong? If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much discussion as you like for as long as you like. Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from the teachings of the Buddha. 4. the pali canon is the earliest strain of the Buddhas word . If you accept that it is earlier is it not likely that the later Mahayana ideas are not the Buddhas word where they disagree with the pali? 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma that talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. this can be ordered form the pali text society. I don't know about other members of this group but my own ideas about dhamma coincide with that. Overall you will find many points where tibetan teachings are in agrrement with theravada and others which aren't. This is a theravada group thus our ideas are based on Theravada. rob --- wrote: > Hello all, > > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this > one, > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of > place). > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the > issues > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. > However, > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in > beginning my > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not > a > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > this degree present. > > (As an aside, I feel qualified to comment on this particular > issue > for a > number of reasons, particularly given my lama's teachers were > also > the Dalai Lama's private tutors, and I've been lucky enough to > have > instruction from some of the Geluk lineage's most highly > qualified > teachers in the same system the Dalai Lama was trained in.) > > Sarah wrote: > > >Another 'dilemma'! > > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new copy of > the > Dalai Lama's > > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to Dhammapada > sayings > which one > > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with their > references > to > > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with these. > > > >Sarah > > Sarah, I am curious as to what teachings specifically you > disagree > with in regard to emptiness? I am assuming by disagreeing > you're > implying these teachings on emptiness are characterized by > ditthi > somehow. If you believe this is true, what ditthi in specific > do you > see in the teachings on emptiness? > > aweller wrote: > > > Firstly, when the Buddha was near death despite having many > great > > disciples, he exhorted his followers to take refuge in > Dhamma and > not any > > particular individual. As far I know this would also be in > Tibetan > texts. > > That is correct. The Four Reliances ("rely on the Dharma not > the > teacher") are mentioned frequently in the Tibetan systems I'm > aware > of. > > > Secondly. He said not to take any notice of any monk or > layman > unless what > > they said conformes to his teachings. > > That is also correct. Though given the context of this quote I > hope > you're not implying the Dalai Lama doesn't conform to the > Buddha's > teachings. If you are implying this, then I am curious to know > the > basis for this judgment. > > > Ultimately though you are attacking the Dalai Lama by > attacking > > wrong view and I do not see any way around this. > > For many Dharma practitioners in the Tibetan vein this could > be seen > as a very divisive statement. I am curious to know what this > ditthi > is you refer to in the Tibetan presentation of the Dharma. > Specifics > would be helpful, because specifics count for a bunch when it > comes > to the principle of emptiness/no-self/dependent origination. > > Again, please understand I am responding to this post because > I see > an entire legitimate Dharma tradition being tarred with a very > broad > brush here. I do not believe it in the least beneficial to say > an > entire tradition teaches 'wrong view' without establishing > first why > you believe it's wrong view. > 3900 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:37am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > this degree present. Dear Erik, First of all, welcome to the discussions, we love all those who study the dhamma, for me especially the Tipitaka, after all, I spent such a long time calling myself a Buddhist (about the first 20 years of my life) without the slightest notion of what it was all about. But when I began to study, my new life began, a new meaning was added to the world around me, and I found that everything became clearer. Even the most unsolvable problems and dilemmas are generally topped by some event in the Tipitaka, if one looked in the right places. This is why I personally encourage people to study the dhamma, but not just anything anyone says, one must discriminate as far as one can, otherwise why call oneself a Buddhist after all? The proper thing would be to set up a separate sect like the Jaens, for example, if they did not care for what the Tipitaka's teachings. Which is why for me anything in the Tipitaka has to be carefully considered and anything outside read and set aside, (in my case with my defective memory, most likely forgotten) I am a rather avid reader by nature (read accumulations). So if you are here to study the Tipitaka, I for one will do my best to help you and ask those who can for you if I can't myself. But you might find that the truth in the Tipitaka is a little hard to take at first, especially since you have done a lot of research elsewhere beforehand. Besides, even in the Buddha's days not everyone was able to face it: there are several suttas where the BHIKKHU would cough up blood and leave the order after hearing the truth from the Buddha. So the dhamma is obviously not for everyone. Not that this group has ever had that effect on people, I don't think, but I think we have scared off more than one person with our insistence on Tipitaka study. Of course personally I have a lot of fun and loads of lobha while studying, but I am far from the norm here (and perhaps a little off from the 'normal'?!) Anyway, what I am trying to say is to repeat what the Buddha had taught, to carefully consider what we hear as 'the dhamma' and check it with the body of his work as well as realities around you before believing. We are not attacking you or your teachers or any Tibetan or the Dalai lama, who personally I think is a wonderful person and whom my sister adores. When he went to Geneva, where she lives, a year or two back all the town went to see him at the cathedral St. Pierre, a record attendance including l'Abbe Pierre, who came from France. But the truth remains that you might be shocked to find that in the Tipitaka, there can be no reincarnation of the Buddha, ever. Witness the passage from the Sa??yuttanik?ya Sal???yatanagga Phaggun?asutta 99 as quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : Then the Reverend Phaggun?a entered the audience of the Buddha and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, bodysense and a mind.) The Buddha said, "Behold Phaggun?a, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, that mind would no longer exist. After parinibb?na there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. After parinibb?na one does not go to a place to preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would still be dukkha, not beyond it. (End quote) There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to their accumulations. Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you are studying with us, Amara 3901 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:43am Subject: Re: Dhamma for beginners > Achaan has asked me to write up a book of dhamma for real beginners, those > whose knowledge is zero, or close to it. One section will include how to > begin that study, what steps to take to start on the path of dhamma. Would > greatly appreciate any ideas you may have for me that I might incorporate > into that write up. Am off to Turkey until the 23rd, but much anumodhana in > advance for all your help. Dear Betty, Sorry about the mix up about your departure date! Glad to have a chance to wish you 'Bon voyage', have a wonderful time and a safe return, + some mindfulness along the way! See you after, and am sure the book will be wonderful! Amara 3902 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 0:03pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear all, Sorry I used a version with all the Pali diacritical marks still there so I found that my browser turned them all into ?s. Here is a clearer version, so you could find the references more easily: > Witness the > passage from the Samyuttanikaya Salayatanavagga Phaggunasutta 99 as > quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : > > Then the Reverend Phagguna entered the audience of the Buddha > and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with > all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vatta controlled, > and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would > those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the > mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tanha eradicated, the path > cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? > > (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the > parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, > bodysense and a mind.) > > The Buddha said, "Behold Phagguna, when a person speaks of > the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tanha eradicated, the > path cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a > person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? > eradicated, the path cut, vatta controlled, and all dukkha > transcended, after he has attained parinibbana, that mind would no > longer exist. > > After parinibbana there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. After parinibbana one does not go to a place to > preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be > beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would > still be dukkha, not beyond it. > > (End quote) > > There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also > true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to > their accumulations. > > Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you > are studying with us, > > Amara 3903 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:40am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/12/01 10:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, <> writes: > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > =============================== Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit me to draw your attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, Consciousness, and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter Harvey. The ISBN for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* text, in my opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, not Sanskrit, and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most prized books I own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous enthousiasm. I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 to p.108 , Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He gives a fair number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to conclude that the early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his conclusion is certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of interest. Is it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that there is a between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to simply being contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one distinguish, in a hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one hand, and a short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the following: Person A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a state that lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then dies from that state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will call the second of these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an intermediate state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime which is short can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period that is far less than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this issue may be moot, a mere verbal distinction. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3904 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:48am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Erik, Nice meeting you, esp. I am delighted that you interested in study abhidhamma. My name is Num. I consider myself as a beginner as well. As Robert mentioned, schism is nothing new. A lot of different ideas and views are listed in katha-vatthu. Robert could you give a little more explanation of what you meant when you mentioned about katha-vatthu, <<>> This book is very interested. I have to read it more in detail before I can discuss anything further in this book. Just want to add my opinion that Buddhism has no race or ethnicity in it. There is no Thai-dhamma, Chinese-dhamma, Tibetan-dhamma, Japanese dhamma or Burmese dhamma. Reality is reality, I know it's hard not to have different opinions and controversies b/c most of us are clinging to the sense of my view, or more specific, my right view. I am a lumper not a splitter and I try to avoid direct attack or criticism at all cost b/c I think that will not lead anybody to really understand the dhamma. Disagreement doesn't mean argument or disrespect. I like different ideas and inputs actually. To me they help me see how much I really understand the point that at time I think I have already understood. I always learn a lot from my friends, my teachers, my students, my clients and at time even from animals and trees. Let me ask you this, is there abhidhamma writing in Tibetan cannon? And let me tell you this, I can be pretty opinionated but my opinion is not necessary always true. Be critical and skeptical even to your own thought and consumption. Welcome to dsg discussion. Num 3905 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:03pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Erik, I really appreciated your intro. and you didn't even need my usual prompt. Very interesting background. How did you come across Abhid in Daily Life (ADL as we usually refer to it)? As anyone who's been around for a while on the list knows, this book had more impact on me than any other when I first came across it (before it was printed and lent to me by Ann whom I wrote to on list a couple of days ago). Although I've never studied the Tibetan teachings in any depth, when I used to live in England, occasionally I'd visit the Manjushri Institute in the Lake district where I had friends living. Sometimes I'd have excellent discussions about the abhidhamma with the Lamas there and was always impressed by their interest in this area, which I have to say I seldom found amongst other friends who were so-called Theravada vipassana practitioners. It sounds like you're already more than a 'rank beginner' and I really look forward to any of your comments, questions or clarifications on abhidhamma too. I'm very glad to hear that generally speaking you've found the calibre of discussion on the list generally high and am most impressed that you're working your way through the archives.... I'm sorry if I lowered this calibre with any poor comments as you quoted here: > > >I met a friend for lunch last week. She had a new > copy of the > Dalai Lama's > > >thoughts and comments. Many were similar to > Dhammapada sayings > which one > > >could appreciate. Some were Tibetan sayings with > their references > to > > >emptiness etc and I mentioned I didn't agree with > these. > Firstly let me say there is no 'collective reasoning' on this list. We're all responsible for what we write and there are many different views and understandings of the Buddha's teachings. Even amongst those of us who have studied the Dhamma with the help of Khun Sujin, there can be different understandings and views (even between Jon and myself occasionally.....).The value of this list is that we're able to raise these different understandings and hopefully to clarify the points in the Tipitaka. Without going back to my full message, I believe I was raising the issue of people skills when there are different understandings. There was no attack on the Dalai Lama or on his teachings and no mention of wrong view. Certainly my lunch friend didn't take it this way either. She had brought along the book to discuss with me, knowing that my background or interest was in the pali Tipitaka and was asking for comments. In fact I had been making many complimentary comments about the book. Eric, I don't have the book or the verses at hand, so I'm not able to quote or remember what the sayings were now. However, if you'd like to raise your understanding of emptiness, I'll happily discuss further and see if there seems to be any point of departure from the Tipitaka as I understand it. We often discuss areas raised by members from a Mahayana background on the list, to consider whether they are consistent with the pali Tipitaka, and I think it's very healthy. I stress that none of these comments are meant as any attack on each other or on different teachers even if they are misunderstood in this way. I'm glad you raised your feelings on this issue and they are a reminder to me to be circumspect in any comments too. Please be assured that there was no intention at all to tarnish any tradition 'with a broad brush'. I apologise for any offence my post or a response to it may have caused. I may just add, that at the time we were writing, there were probably half a dozen members, but now there are a hundred with access to the comments. We had no idea then that the list would be so popular! Any comments we write now may be read by a thousand next year! We'd better not think about that otherwise no one would write anything!! Please feel free to bring up any other points raised from the archives as well as from the books you're reading. I look forward to hearing your comments or summary on voidness too if you'd like to pursue this area. Thanks again for joining us, Eric, and look forward to more chat. Sarah p.s Howard is also from NY (I forget if it's NYC) and was also from a Mahayana background..I have a feeling there are at least a couple more NYC's... We can usually rely on the NYCs to be pretty direct! Good! With you AND Num moving to Bkk, it'll be a real support for the English discussion sessions with K.Sujin. Will you be going there on work or just to pursue your Buddhist studies.... you'll have a great welcome next time! 3906 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:09pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is right. I try to approach my own investigation of the Dharma with as much dispassion as possible. I admit I am ignorant of many things, and still a relative beginner on the path, so it makes sense to me to continue this strategy that's worked well so far. I am also uninterested in various superficial differences in style between systems; I am primarily interested in the essence of the teachings themselves, in other words, whatever's beneficial and connected to the goal. I would like very much to investigate my earler question regarding the idea that 'wrong view' is somehow being taught in the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. This is a pretty key point, I think. If this is true, then there's no need for further discussion. > If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much > discussion as you like for as long as you like. I'd like. Seriously. If there's wrong view anywhere I certainly want to know about it. And likewise, after careful investigation and reflection, I hope you're open-minded enough to accept the possibility you may have misunderstood the Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. I prefer to deal in specifics on this, though. I prefer to concentrate on central doctrines dealing directly with the end of suffering. > Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: > 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. > 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are > excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. > 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from the > teachings of the Buddha. All the above are true. But I believe you're leaving out a few other important similarities. It also teaches the Four Ariyan Truths: dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga. It teaches anicca, dukkha, anatta, paticca samuppada, the khandas, the Abhidhamma, nibbana. It teaches samatha and vipassana as its central practices leading to dukkha- nirodha. It teaches the four fruits from sotapatti to arahat. In none of the above examples have I been able to detect any meaningful difference between the teachings found in the Tipitika vs. those found in the Kangyur. My experience has been to see instead that each serves to validate and support the other. > 4. the pali canon is the earliest strain of the Buddhas word . > If you accept that it is earlier is it not likely that the later > Mahayana ideas are not the Buddhas word where they disagree with > the pali? These are, for me, less important questions at the moment, but I'll take a stab at one or two. Based on my limited knowledge, the origins of the Tipitika are just as mysterious as the origins of later texts. Also, there is no indication the Tipitika is in fact the complete set of the Buddha's teachings, given it was set down some several hundred years after the Buddha's parinibbana. Consider the hack-job the Christian Council of Nicea did on the original Bible, declaring deeper Gnostic doctrines "heresies" and promoting dogmas concocted well after the founder's death. I raise this to point out it's impossible to know how much the Tipitika reflects the actual teachings of the historical Shakyamuni Buddha; there were too many factors present to be certain the Tipitika reflects the entire opus of Lord Buddha's teaching. For this reason I do not see it as profitable to specualate on its historical origins. Given this, to me, the Tipitika's (or Kangyur's) historical accuracy is not the best way for me to establish its authenticity. The critera I use are much more basic (to me) than this. My critera are, Does this teaching lead me to abandon unskillful activities, take up skillful ones, and purify the mind? If so, I class that teaching, no matter the source (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whatever), as Dhamma, after testing it out in my own life and practice to ensure it actually works. That is my personal basis for establishing what is dhamma and what is adhamma. > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > being who after death exists for 49 days before being reborn. > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. One thing to remember about the Bardo Thodol. It was a very minor and unofficial "terma" text that somehow gained notoriety after it was translated into English by Evans-Wentz. Actually, it was one of my first encounters with the Dharma, and it was the "hook" that got me interested enough to take up formal Buddhist practice (along with the "Three Pillars of Zen"). View that as you will, but whether it's technically "right" or "wrong" it nevertheless served a purpose in my own life, one that brought me directly into the Dharma, so what more can I really say about this other that it served as upaya for me? And I am sure you don't believe that when the Buddha was born he took seven steps and all that, either. And yet that is Dharma for a reason as well, even if it sounds rather silly to some people. I find the whole of the Buddhist Dharma the most wonderful collection of myths I have ever encountered. > Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma that > talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. By coincidence I was reading Buddhagosa's summary of various wrong views this evening, as well as the list of twenty-five ways of discerning emptiness. I don't know Pali, and I know of no English translations of the Abhidhamma Pitika, so I would not have read anything in the Katthavatthu. Anyway, as I think I said before, I have yet to see a hair of contradiction between the Tibetan presentation and that of the Tipitika. The more I study the clearer this essential non-difference becomes to me, rather than the other way around. > Overall you will find many points where tibetan teachings are in > agrrement with theravada and others which aren't. This is a > theravada group thus our ideas are based on Theravada. I am happy to work within the Theravada framework. I try to spend as much time to reading the Tiptika as the Tibetan texts, because I have a real affinity for them. So I feel equally comfortable with either approach. 3907 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:21pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi Num, > Just want to add my opinion that Buddhism has no race or ethnicity in it. > There is no Thai-dhamma, Chinese-dhamma, Tibetan-dhamma, Japanese dhamma or > Burmese dhamma. Reality is reality, I agree completely, and I use those labels to denote the "flavor" of teaching style, not ethnicity. > Let me ask you this, is there abhidhamma writing in Tibetan cannon? Yes. I have a translation of that in English I was lucky enough to get a copy of, so I can compare what I've been learning against the Tibetan at a later point. 3908 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:49pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Dear Howard, I was just talking about you to Eric which has prompted this: --- wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > I find no significant disagreement at all > with what you express in > this post. Sometimes it's good to agree to..looks like we're coming to a pretty satisfactory conclusion on this topic...(for now)! just one point I'm not clear on in yr post: --------------------------------------------------------------- As far as the "selfish" > motivation of avoiding the pain of anger and the > oblivion of ignorance, > these, in fact, are the primary motives behind the > entire Buddhist > enterprise. The Buddha likened anger to picking up a > hot coal to hurl at > another. The attacker is the first to be hurt. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm a little unclear here...what is the entire Buddhist enterprise? Do you just mean the aim of Buddhism is to eradicate ignorance? if so, agreed. I would like to just add a couple of comments to your comments on Nina's 'Abhidhamma and Practice' which I'll try to paste here: ===================================== I like it *very* much. I think it is an excellent article! I have two additional comments: (1) The article points to right (intellectual) understanding as the condition for the arising of insight. I think it would have been good at that point to mention some of the other factors which condition the arising of right mindfulness such as concentration, calm (due in part to the practice of sila), and right effort. (2) I think that the article would be enhanced by some mention of the techniques of practice including techniques for the cultivation of calm and the cultivation of insight. Perhaps a sister article which goes further in the direction of practice could be added. But these comments aside, this is one of the best articles of its kind I have seen! =================================================== Howard, I'm glad you can appreciate this article and thankyou for quoting from it. (1) The reason that the emphasis is on rt understanding and not on concentration, calm and rt effort is because at a moment of rt understanding, these other cetasikas (mental factors) arise automatically with it. Any moment of kusala (wholesomeness) is calm already, calm from akusala for a moment. Concentration (ekaggata) is a universal cetasika which applies with every citta (moment of consciousness). Only be developing understanding will rt concentration be developed. Similarly, effort (samma vayama) can be kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), so again rt understanding is the key to know the difference. (2) You mention about the 'techniques of practice' for cultivation of calm and insight. Perhaps the question should be: Can there be a technique of practice? Both kinds of bhavana (mental development) depend on right understanding of their respective objects. Can understanding at this moment of a reality or an object of samatha be called a technique I wonder? look forward to your comments as always.... Sarah p.s. I know you would appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas' very much now..I think it can be ordered through Wisdom Books (on the links page). This one is not on the internet or available for free distribution. 3909 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:55pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > How > did you come across Abhid in Daily Life (ADL as we > usually refer to it)? Is this a trick question? What if I don't answer with "kamma-vipaka?" > As anyone who's been around for > a while on the list knows, this book had more impact > on me than any other when I first came across it > (before it was printed and lent to me by Ann whom I > wrote to on list a couple of days ago). It's a great book for me; it's clarified all sorts of things, and raised just as many questions, and severly taxed my memory. > Even amongst those of us > who have studied the Dhamma with the help of Khun > Sujin, there can be different understandings and views > (even between Jon and myself occasionally.....).The > value of this list is that we're able to raise these > different understandings and hopefully to clarify the > points in the Tipitaka. To be clear, I have no problem with disagreements as I've found they've been the best fodder for my own understanding. Geluk-pas heavily emphasize the practice of debate for this reason, I think, because it forces careful, up-close examination of essential points. This is one reason I have enjoyed comparing the Suttas with Tibetan teachings, for example. > Eric, I don't have the book or the verses at hand, so > I'm not able to quote or remember what the sayings > were now. However, if you'd like to raise your > understanding of emptiness, I'll happily discuss > further and see if there seems to be any point of > departure from the Tipitaka as I understand it. Perhaps the best way I can say this is I have yet to detect any difference between the teachings on anatta and emptiness. Nor any differences between emptiness and dependent origination, for that matter. As I said in another post, the more I study and compare, the more perfectly these descriptions all appear to cross-validate each other. That, to me, is a mark of Dharma. If there were confusion in comparing these two presentations there would be big trouble as I see it. To me this functional equivalence means they're the of the same essence with a different wrapping. Anyway, I find it difficult to just set out "my" views without context (such as a question or an objection), and I would prefer to address specific criticisms of central points instead. 3910 From: Sarah Procter Abbott Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:14pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Cybele, --- cybele chiodi wrote: > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are > in the same boat > without trying to row against the stream. > But only seeking for understanding in order to > desentangle our mind of > illusions. > Imperfection is the full package in our human > nature!!! Take it or leave it > but we cannot fight out against our past > accumulations and 'control' our > nature with suppression. > Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for > another and never wake > up from this dream. Good points, cybele...so right....understanding and accepting rather than controlling and suppressing..and as you say, we're all in the same boat (and in the same mess) together! Glad to have you for company when the waves get choppy! Sarah P.S. You and Num could even start up an Italian discussion group and study dhamma in Italian! 3911 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:21pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Eric, --- wrote: > > > made me think you are truly seeking to find out what is > right. > > I try to approach my own investigation of the Dharma with as > much > dispassion as possible. Good. It is the right way. I am pretty sure, for instance, that if khun Sujin said to me tommorow that she was wrong in her teachings and that Abhidhamma was not helpful I would not be worried. I would simply try to point out why I thought she was wrong. Of course this is very unlikely and I have no expectation of her ever doing this. I just want to show that we have to rely on the Dhamma, not on teachers too much. I admit I am ignorant of many things, > and > still a relative beginner on the path, so it makes sense to me > to > continue this strategy that's worked well so far. I am also > uninterested in various superficial differences in style > between > systems; I am primarily interested in the essence of the > teachings > themselves, in other words, whatever's beneficial and > connected to > the goal. Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us believe that "we" are right, that is its function. I would like very much to investigate my earler > question > regarding the idea that 'wrong view' is somehow being taught > in the > Tibetan Buddhist Dharma. This is a pretty key point, I think. > If this > is true, then there's no need for further discussion. > > > If you allow for this possibilty I will go into as much > > discussion as you like for as long as you like. > > I'd like. Seriously. If there's wrong view anywhere I > certainly want > to know about it. And likewise, after careful investigation > and > reflection, I hope you're open-minded enough to accept the > possibility you may have misunderstood the Tibetan Buddhist > Dharma. I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of tibetan thought that we were unaware of. I > prefer to deal in specifics on this, though. I prefer to > concentrate > on central doctrines dealing directly with the end of > suffering. > > > Let us see if we can find agreement firstly: > > 1. There are wonderful teachings in the Tibetan canon. > > 2. their ways of developing compassion for instance are > > excellent and totally accord with Dhamma. > > 3. They also have ideas that are a later development from > the > > teachings of the Buddha. > > All the above are true. But I believe you're leaving out a few > other > important similarities. It also teaches the Four Ariyan > Truths: > dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, magga. It teaches anicca, dukkha, > anatta, > paticca samuppada, the khandas, the Abhidhamma, nibbana. It > teaches > samatha and vipassana as its central practices leading to > dukkha- > nirodha. It teaches the four fruits from sotapatti to arahat. > In none > of the above examples have I been able to detect any > meaningful > difference between the teachings found in the Tipitika vs. > those > found in the Kangyur. My experience has been to see instead > that each > serves to validate and support the other. I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but it is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn according to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a sotapanna will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I right in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is enlightened and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. > Given this, to me, the Tipitika's (or Kangyur's) historical > accuracy > is not the best way for me to establish its authenticity. The > critera > I use are much more basic (to me) than this. My critera are, > Does > this teaching lead me to abandon unskillful activities, take > up > skillful ones, and purify the mind? If so, I class that > teaching, no > matter the source (Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, whatever), as > Dhamma, > after testing it out in my own life and practice to ensure it > actually works. That is my personal basis for establishing > what is > dhamma and what is adhamma. > I think we have to be careful here. As I said before wrongview will always make us think we are right. In fact I have yet to meet an adherent of any sect or religion that has not said to me "i have tested the teachings and they work": I bet you would get the leader of the taliban making an identical statement. I get so many different people visting me in japan- it is one of the advantages (drawbacks?) of being known as a "serious" buddhist. I have the Da avoodtas (was Da free johns), the mormons, the zenists, the vipassanists, chogyam trungpas disciples, and also one who has a guru in india who I forget his name right now-( who materialies vibbudi out of thin air). Everyone is convinced they have the true path. Incidently out of all these, the ones who shine above the others in appearance, morality and general demeanor are- as far as I can tell - the mormons. > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > reborn. > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > One thing to remember about the Bardo Thodol. It was a very > minor and > unofficial "terma" text that somehow gained notoriety after it > was > translated into English by Evans-Wentz. Actually, it was one > of my > first encounters with the Dharma, and it was the "hook" that > got me > interested enough to take up formal Buddhist practice (along > with > the "Three Pillars of Zen"). View that as you will, but > whether it's > technically "right" or "wrong" it nevertheless served a > purpose in my > own life, one that brought me directly into the Dharma, so > what more > can I really say about this other that it served as upaya for > me? Well anything can serve as upaya (as upanissaya paccaya). Our mothers death could goad us on the path. or we could kill and be sent to jail and so be goaded. Or we could join a cult and learn some buddhist ideas- BUT get more understanding and see also where they were clinging and so leave the cult and continue our quest in a more profitable way. If we just stay with the cult though, simply because they taught us some truths we are surely not going further? Anyway I take it that you have now rejected this aspect of tibetan teaching? If so you are indeed a man who is after the heart of the teaching. > And I am sure you don't believe that when the Buddha was born > he took > seven steps and all that, either. And yet that is Dharma for a > reason > as well, even if it sounds rather silly to some people. I find > the > whole of the Buddhist Dharma the most wonderful collection of > myths I > have ever encountered. Indeed I do not find it impossible that the Buddha took seven steps. I haven't thought about it much but since you mention it: Someone who has accumulated parami for uncountable number of aeons, someone who could distingiush nama from rupa by his own efforts and then give all the details so well that even we can get a glimpse. Why should such a trivial thing as taking a few steps be impossible. I grew up on farms and at lambing time we used to help the sheep give birth. Those fragile lambs were up and running instantly. Why not a future Buddha? > > > Have you read the katthavatthu, the book in the Abhidhamma > that > > talks about the various wrong understandings of dhamma. > > By coincidence I was reading Buddhagosa's summary of various > wrong > views this evening, as well as the list of twenty-five ways of > > discerning emptiness. I don't know Pali, and I know of no > English > translations of the Abhidhamma Pitika, so I would not have > read > anything in the Katthavatthu. Anyway, as I think I said > before, I > have yet to see a hair of contradiction between the Tibetan > presentation and that of the Tipitika. The more I study the > clearer > this essential non-difference becomes to me, rather than the > other > way around. OK this is good news. In that case it may be more profitable to drop this avenue. If you say that the Theravada is practically the same then I accept that. Let us then work towards further understanding in tandem. rob 3912 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back - correction Dear Alex >--- "cybele chiodi" >wrote: > > >I don't judge if is good or is bad, so to speak, I just accept >what I am > > >and DON'T try to live up to 'buddhists expectations'. > >Dear Cybele, > > How true! Oh, yes, it is extremely difficult to live up >to 'buddhsists expectations'! In fact, I think that it's even harder >than attaining liberation itself. :-))) > >With Metta, >Alex Tran I entirely agree; it's a life that I am 'invited' to curb my nature. By the way, I would like to discuss this issue but I am leaving to London for a job but once arrived I will connect from an internet cafe to reply. It's a frantic period! WoW! Metta Cybele 3913 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear howard, --- wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > reborn. > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > =============================== > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit > me to draw your > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, > Consciousness, > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > Harvey. The ISBN > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* > text, in my > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, > not Sanskrit, > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most > prized books I > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > enthousiasm. > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years back I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many people these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > to p.108 , > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He > gives a fair > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to > conclude that the > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > conclusion is > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of > interest. Is > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that > there is a > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to > simply being > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. Which realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, let alone the commentaries. > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > distinguish, in a > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one > hand, and a > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the > following: Person > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a > state that > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then > dies from that > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > call the second of > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an > intermediate > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime > which is short > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > that is far less > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > issue may be moot, > a mere verbal distinction. This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, was reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This is not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn as a flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva realm also. Again no intermediate realm. Howard, Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics Vibha"nga The Book of Analysis Dhaatukathaa Discourse on Elements Puggalapa~n~natti A Designation of Human Types Kathaavatthu Points of Controversy Yamaka No PTS translation yet available Tikapa.t.thaana Conditional Relations Dukapa.t.thaana No PTS translation yet available The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of intermediate beings as wrong view. I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It is not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. The works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I like ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - she does not specualate about this and that- but still her writings are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. robert 3914 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:19pm Subject: suttas about death (to comfort) Dear group, Cybele just wrote to me asking if I could find any good suttas for someone who is suffering bereavement. She has a friend whose mother died and wants something to comfort her. Does anyone have one to hand. Venerable Dhammapiyo, I was especially thinking you might know as you are very knowledgeable on where to find suitable suttas . rob 3915 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:56pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion > p.s. I know you would appreciate Nina VG's 'Cetasikas' > very much now..I think it can be ordered through > Wisdom Books (on the links page). This one is not on > the internet or available for free distribution. Dear Sarah, We might have a nice surprise for all our friends soon at ! Amara 3916 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:40pm Subject: Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Num and Cybele, I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so encouraging to have both of you on the list. --- wrote: > Hi Cybele, > As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a > symbol, symbol > of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we > communicated, > with pannatti. Just for those who are wondering pannatti is pali for concept. I like to say that reality is not in the > tipitaka---> what do > I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always > constantly > changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. > OK, this is > just my intellectual understanding... > > << the world. > Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the > individual who goes > against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one > who has > crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a > brahmin.>>> > > What does it mean by individual? I have tendency to believe > that "self, my > self or I am" exists. The Buddha said there is no self, no > you and no meI!!! > What was he talking about??? As far as I can understand, I > hold the > phenomena of actually nama and rupa together as me, myself or > you, and hold > it tighter, deeper and bigger till it becomes a world filled > in with many > people and things. What we take for self or person are > actually changing > phenomena-namadhamma and rupadhamma. To me every time we do > kusula deed, it > means you are going against the flow. Every time we do > unwholesome deed, we > are sweeping by the flow. In a broad sense yes but in a finer sense most kusala is done with subtle self-view. It too is going with the flow. It too adds to samsara. Only satipatthana is really going against the flow because true satipatthana- true awareness of any nama or rupa- is without the idea of control or self. But we can probably put this under the heading of nitpicking especially as you clarify so well further..: Flow of what, flow of endless > causes and > conditions, flow of endless cycles, flow of samsara. We > cannot cross this > flow by even great jhana. How we cross it then. No great > miracle, no magic > or protocol that every can just follow. Just simple, humble, > quiet friend > call samma-dhitti or right understanding. NUM, you are a prodigy. I said to kom a while back I would be content if we had one more like him to help out. Now here you are. Have you got friends (My satisfaction has given out to more lobha). Can we cross > the flow by being > good, drunkenly good, deludedly good? Can you cross the flow > by living > totally hedonistic life style. The first sound better and > more tempted for > who not really pay careful attention to dhamma. Both extreme > cannot take you > across the flow. Yes. This is what we usually do. We hear the dhamma and then try to live special lives, try to control our emotions and habits. Sit like statues; make sure we never get angry. It is SELF. > > What can we do? I am at times afraid, at times lost, at time > bold and at > times very obsessive. Lord Buddha said there is no self, no > you and me. > Drunkenly good, deludedly good act or totally self indulgent > act will take us > no where. I don't remember who first said this, "real work is > doing without > doing." By right understanding there will be less unwholesome > deed, there > will be less clinging for view of self, the world that filled > with many > stresses, people will be disappeared and without intention or > want, I think > at least we can see the shore or the bank of this samsara > river or great > bottomless, no boundary ocean. I think I am too, just a > sinful man, at time > enjoy being swept by the mighty flow. Very hard for most people to admit this. Your honesty is invigorating. rob 3917 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 7:09pm Subject: Num and Cybele: against the flow 2? Dear Cybele and Num, Me again. --- cybele chiodi wrote: >> > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I > am just > >flowing > > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > > > > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two > individuals as the > last two could not apply to me. Nice to see your honesty too Cybele. So easy to overestimate our progress because we do not see really see dhammas as they are. Your realistic estimation is itself real kusala and supports further investigation and insight. > > "These four types of individuals are to be found existing in > the world. > Which four? The individual who goes with the flow, the > individual who goes > against the flow, the individual who stands fast, and the one > who has > crossed over, gone beyond, who stands on firm ground: a > brahmin. > > "And who is the individual who goes with the flow? There is > the case where > an individual indulges in sensual passions and does evil > deeds. This is > called the individual who goes with the flow." > > "And who is the individual who goes against the flow? There is > the case > where an individual doesn't indulge in sensual passions and > doesn't do evil > deeds. Even though it may be with pain, even though it may be > with sorrow, > even though he may be crying, his face in tears, he lives the > holy life that > is perfect & pure. This is called the individual who goes > against the flow." > > > As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and > pure' I suppose > I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the > passionate > ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the > crucial point > is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not > simply indulging in > it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any > forceful > means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is > not conditions > arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. > I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. > Makes you feel > inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't > improve as a > matter of fact. > And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble > knowledge. > I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and > I can work out > my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present > nature; otherwise in > my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. yes suppression is not the way. It is useful to consider this sutta also with our understanding of Abhidhamma. In fact as Num pointed out there is no individual, there is only a stream of ever changing namas and rupas. Nothing is the same for an instance. We can still talk about character though because different types of conditions become powerful and habitual. Of course as you well know if we take these for self or permanent though we are not understanding deeply. We might live a hard life, one with tears and sorrow, but still develop much understanding of nama and rupa - which is the same as understanding anatta- ie. satipatthana. Of course the moments of dosa(aversion) at the time when we cry - for instance- are not satipatthana. However there can be many moments of understanding insighting the dosa and other objects while this is happening. Thus even while we are crying there is a growing awareness and insight into anattaness. This can truly be done. Another person might live a happy life, calm and content. Very equanimous, a serious meditator and yet not be developing even an iota of real satipatthana. One thinks one can control sati and make it arise or thinks samadhi is sati. > > And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect > buddhists that > take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot > even be humorous > of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. > They really believe it and take themselves seriously. > Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my > fellows > human beings. > And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just > happens > and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it > be. > I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without > realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives > lasting > process of inner evolution. Great stuff cybele. it helps us all to consider these points. > I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with > a > knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' > to feel > much more reassured and less ignorant. yes we are not trying to become Buddhists or calm or wise or anything. The path leads away from all that worthless crap. > Exchanging the idea if self to clinging to an spiritual self - > but self is > always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non > escape. > I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on > fake > securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the > same boat > without trying to row against the stream. > But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our > mind of > illusions. > Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take > it or leave it > but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and > 'control' our > nature with suppression. . > > The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive > with my > knowledge dear Num. Yes. Why does it have to be this way? because it has to be this way.(as they say in thailand) rob 3918 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:15pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow? Dear Robert Thanks for your support. My flight is postponed therefore now I am going to reply to Num and Sarah and you. And thanks Rob for posting my request on the subject of death; my friend is paining a lot and I would like to give real comfort that could clarify her mind and soothes her heart. And thanks for translating in plain English the Pali terminology; seems that people here is 'lazy' to do it even after my pleadings. ;-)))) > >Dear Num and Cybele, > >I must thank both of you for two excellent posts. To my mind you >are both seeing crucial and subtle aspects of Dhamma. It is so >encouraging to have both of you on the list. 3919 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 8:19pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the condition of the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one who has reached the Goal: "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" (Case: Annihilationism) Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" (Case: Eternalism) Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, There is not that by which he could be named; When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, are all the ways of telling, too! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > > > I was surfing through all the posts here and came across this one, > > which I frankly found quite surprising (and seemingly out of place). > > I realize this topic is from a over year ago, and I hope the issues > > have been resolved to everyone's satisfaction since then. However, > > given the content I feel it important to clarify some apparent > > misunderstandings. I want to say I am not interested in beginning my > > very first real post here on this sort of note, but it is not a > > trivial issue when there are apparent misunderstandings of > > this degree present. > > > Dear Erik, > First of all, welcome to the discussions, we love all those who study > the dhamma, for me especially the Tipitaka, after all, I spent such a > long time calling myself a Buddhist (about the first 20 years of my > life) without the slightest notion of what it was all about. But when > I began to study, my new life began, a new meaning was added to the > world around me, and I found that everything became clearer. Even the > most unsolvable problems and dilemmas are generally topped by some > event in the Tipitaka, if one looked in the right places. This is why > I personally encourage people to study the dhamma, but not just > anything anyone says, one must discriminate as far as one can, > otherwise why call oneself a Buddhist after all? The proper thing > would be to set up a separate sect like the Jaens, for example, if > they did not care for what the Tipitaka's teachings. Which is why for > me anything in the Tipitaka has to be carefully considered and > anything outside read and set aside, (in my case with my defective > memory, most likely forgotten) I am a rather avid reader by nature > (read accumulations). > > So if you are here to study the Tipitaka, I for one will do my best to > help you and ask those who can for you if I can't myself. But you > might find that the truth in the Tipitaka is a little hard to take at > first, especially since you have done a lot of research elsewhere > beforehand. Besides, even in the Buddha's days not everyone was able > to face it: there are several suttas where the BHIKKHU would cough up > blood and leave the order after hearing the truth from the Buddha. So > the dhamma is obviously not for everyone. Not that this group has > ever had that effect on people, I don't think, but I think we have > scared off more than one person with our insistence on Tipitaka study. > Of course pursonally I have a lot of fun and loads of lobha while > studying, but I am far from the norm here (and perhaps a little off > from the 'normal'?!) Anyway, what I am trying to say is to repeat > what the Buddha had taught, to carefully consider what we hear as 'the > dhamma' and check it with the body of his work as well as realities > around you before believing. > > We are not attacking you or your teachers or any Tibetan or the Dalai > lama, who personally I think is a wonderful person and whom my sister > adores. When he went to Geneva, where she lives, a year or two back > all the town went to see him at the cathedral St. Pierre, a record > attendance including l'Abbe Pierre, who came from France. But the > truth remains that you might be shocked to find that in the Tipitaka, > there can be no reincarnation of the Buddha, ever. Witness the > passage from the Sa??yuttanik?ya Sal???yatanagga Phaggun?asutta 99 as > quoted in the 'Summary', Citta, ch.15, in the advanced section of > http://www.dhammastudy.com/ : > > Then the Reverend Phaggun?a entered the audience of the Buddha > and asked, "Sire, when a person speaks of the eyes of the Buddha, with > all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, > and all dukkha transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, would > those eyes will still be there? etc... When a person speaks of the > mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the path > cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, would that mind will still be there? > > (He asked the Buddha whether after the Buddha had attained the > parinibb?na he would still have eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, > bodysense and a mind.) > > The Buddha said, "Behold Phaggun?a, when a person speaks of > the eyes of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? eradicated, the > path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha transcended, after he has > attained parinibb?na, those eyes would no longer exist. etc... When a > person speaks of the mind of the Buddha, with all obstructing tan?h? > eradicated, the path cut, vat?t?a controlled, and all dukkha > transcended, after he has attained parinibb?na, that mind would no > longer exist. > > After parinibb?na there are no more eyes, ears, nose, tongue, > bodysense or mind. After parinibb?na one does not go to a place to > preside over merit-making ceremonies, in which case it would not be > beyond the world because there would still be eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, bodysense and mind that arise and fall away. There would > still be dukkha, not beyond it. > > (End quote) > > There is no rebirth for a Buddha in any form whatever. That is also > true for all arahanta. The rest will always come to be, according to > their accumulations. > > Everyone gains new insight studying the Tipitaka, and we are glad you > are studying with us, > > Amara > 3920 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:13pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Hi Num >>Hi Cybele, > >Sound like you are pretty passionate and temperamental. I like that. I agree with the pretty passionate but less with the temperamental, meaning I have a strong character but I am not particularly moody or unpredictable. Just to clarify. :-) > >I think this Anusota sutta is good for dsg discussion then. First of all, >let me talk about the sutta and then about your opinion. You are pretty >opinionated :)) I disagree with the choice of the term Num: 'opinionated' can be retraced as being dogmatic in one's opinions and I could not be much far from a 'dogmatic' person - I am very open minded. You could say that I am pretty 'assertive' and this is much more adherent to how I am. > >As I mentioned, this sutta is an allegory. Using the flow as a symbol, >symbol >of what? We read sutta with pannatti, and that the way we communicated, >with pannatti. I like to say that reality is not in the tipitaka---> what >do >I mean? I mean that reality is here and now, and it's always constantly >changing. Can we avoid that using pannatti, I don't think so. OK, this is >just my intellectual understanding... Well Num, we have everything realities and concepts, intellectual as emotional understanding, intuition, physical sensations, conditionings, past accumulations and so on. I would consider all the lot. I am replying here what regards my own experience as I relate to it much more than conceptual discussion. The dialectic of my own life is the most logical argument I can find to investigate and discuss over. ><<suppose >I am to be identified in the first type of individuals >>> > >As I mentioned, every time right understanding arises, that moment is a >holy, >prefect and pure. We are not holy in abhidhamma sense by doing something >that most people cannot do, by being deludedly good, by able to meet >whatever >standard and not just because we are wearing white or yellow robe. Well I did not associate a holy life with a monastic life in the sutta but again I don't see my awareness in getting insights into reality as anything 'holy, perfect and pure' and personally I do not aspire to conform to such idea. I am not particularly pursuing any goal or heading for a planned destination Num; I just wish to have interest, time and energy to canalize in my seeking, I am just walking along the Path and so to speak admiring the landscape, not trying to change it forcefully to suits particular expectations and if all the factors contribute to make understanding arising I am grateful and rejoice on it. I approach life as self discovery and I am not prone to follow tracks. That's my mental attitude. These are my past accumulations. Weird that I have chosen the traditional Theravada school but I feel attuned with Dhamma; nevertheless I don't perceive it as incompatible with spiritual independence at all. We are inventing ourselves all the time as reality is ever changing, therefore I am not very concerned in being or not being holy; it's more than enough if I manage to don't get stuck in my prejudices and conditionings and keep going. > >As we discussed earlier about the middle path. As K.Amara's add. the >middle >way is here and now and always accompany by right understanding. >Definitely >it's not a paved road with clear and well written signs. Indeed that's exactly why I think that we cannot be identified with this or that, is far too limitating and repressive. Also the 'right undrestanding' is ephimeral, it digs a way inside your consciousness slowly, slowly. And yes we get these singular moments of awakening but we fall asleep again. But I am content when understanding clear out the path for me just a few steps ahead. > ><<knowledge dear Num.>>> > >I wish you a good and safe journey. Hope you meet good friends along the >way >and if possible help other people along the way as well. Hey, who know, >probably we are on the same road. See you when I see you. :) Sure Num. Thanks for your wishes. :-) My life however has never been 'safe' and I am learning to accept it more and mo?e. And cope with reality as it is. Where the flow will take me, probably nowhere.... I decided to go for my first Vipassana retreat in Sri Lanka after a very spontaneous meditation in a wonderful temple in Kandy where I got this insight that I have written in my notebook: 'I would like to stay present to whatever comes and keep going nowhere, no particular destination and being nobody, just exist here and now, understand here and now, no projects, no big aspirations, just being or not being but aware.' Love and respect Cybele 3921 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:47pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear Rob, Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be transformed into skillful means! Anguttara Nikaya V.49 Kosala Sutta The Kosalan Once the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then King Pasenadi the Kosalan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. Now, at that time Queen Mallika died. Then a certain man went to the king and whispered in his ear: "Your majesty, Queen Mallika has died." When this was said, King Pasenadi the Kosalan sat there miserable, sick at heart, his shoulders drooping, his face down, brooding, at a loss for words. Then the Blessed One saw the king sitting there miserable, sick at heart...at a loss for words, and so said to him, "There are these five things, great king, that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. Which five? "'May what is subject to aging not age.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to illness not grow ill.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to death not die.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to ending not end.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "'May what is subject to destruction not be destroyed.' This is something that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. "Now, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person that something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject to aging, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the aging of what is subject to aging, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. "Furthermore, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that something subject to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that something subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. And if, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. "Now, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones that something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is subject to aging, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject to aging, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is totally unbound right within himself. "Furthermore, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that something subject to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that something subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that there are beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. And if, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the destruction of what is subject to destruction, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is totally unbound right within himself. "These are the five things, great king, that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone at all in the world." Not by sorrowing, not by lamenting, is any aim accomplished here, not even a bit. Knowing you're sorrowing & in pain, your enemies are gratified. But when a sage with a sense for determining what is his aim doesn't waver in the face of misfortune, his enemies are pained, seeing his face unchanged, as of old. Where & however an aim is accomplished through eulogies, chants, good sayings, donations, & family customs, follow them diligently there & that way. But if you discern that your own aim or that of others is not gained in this way, acquiesce [to the nature of things] unsorrowing, with the thought: 'What important work am I doing now?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- May this find you and our community here well. Maha Metta and Much Love, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 2:49 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > Dear group, > Cybele just wrote to me asking if I could find any good suttas > for someone who is suffering bereavement. She has a friend whose > mother died and wants something to comfort her. > Does anyone have one to hand. Venerable Dhammapiyo, I was > especially thinking you might know as you are very knowledgeable > on where to find suitable suttas . > rob > 3922 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:37pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear Venerable, Thank you, an excellent choice. Somehow it is so comforting and sobering to know that death is inevitable. We don't need to be buddhist to benefit from such a sutta. metta rob --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: > Dear Rob, > > Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I > would also > recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > > I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have > found this work > of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the > bereaved. It can > be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved > will gain > insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with > this dukkha > and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how > it can be > transformed into skillful means! > > Anguttara Nikaya V.49 > Kosala Sutta > The Kosalan > > Once the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's > Grove, > Anathapindika's monastery. Then King Pasenadi the Kosalan went > to the > Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one > side. Now, at > that time Queen Mallika died. Then a certain man went to the > king and > whispered in his ear: "Your majesty, Queen Mallika has died." > When this was > said, King Pasenadi the Kosalan sat there miserable, sick at > heart, his > shoulders drooping, his face down, brooding, at a loss for > words. Then the > Blessed One saw the king sitting there miserable, sick at > heart...at a loss > for words, and so said to him, "There are these five things, > great king, > that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a > Mara, a > Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. Which five? > "'May what is subject to aging not age.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to illness not grow ill.' This is > something that > cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, > a Brahma, or > anyone at all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to death not die.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to ending not end.' This is something > that cannot be > gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, > or anyone at > all in the world. > > "'May what is subject to destruction not be destroyed.' This > is something > that cannot be gotten by a contemplative, a priest, a deva, a > Mara, a > Brahma, or anyone at all in the world. > > "Now, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person > that something > that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of what is > subject to aging, > he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what > is subject to > aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & > future, > passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that > what is subject > to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject > to aging, I > were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become > distraught, food > would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my > affairs would > go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends > unhappy.' So, with > the aging of what is subject to aging, he sorrows, grieves, > laments, beats > his breast, & becomes distraught. This is called an > uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person pierced by the poisoned arrow of > sorrow, tormenting > himself. > > "Furthermore, it happens to an uninstructed run-of-the-mill > person that > something that is subject to illness grows ill...that > something subject to > death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that > something subject > to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of what is > subject to > destruction, he does not reflect: 'It doesn't happen only to > me that what is > subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that > there are > beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it > happens to all of > them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. > And if, with the > destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to > sorrow, grieve, > lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not > agree with me, > my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go > untended, my enemies > would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the > destruction of what > is subject to destruction, he sorrows, grieves, laments, beats > his breast, & > becomes distraught. This is called an uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person > pierced by the poisoned arrow of sorrow, tormenting himself. > > "Now, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the noble > ones that > something that is subject to aging ages. With the aging of > what is subject > to aging, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me that what > is subject to > aging will age. To the extent that there are beings -- past & > future, > passing away & re-arising -- it happens to all of them that > what is subject > to aging will age. And if, with the aging of what is subject > to aging, I > were to sorrow, grieve, lament, beat my breast, & become > distraught, food > would not agree with me, my body would become unattractive, my > affairs would > go untended, my enemies would be gratified and my friends > unhappy.' So, with > the aging of what is subject to aging, he does not sorrow, > grieve, or > lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. This is > called a > well-instructed disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out > the poisoned > arrow of sorrow pierced with which the uninstructed > run-of-the-mill person > torments himself. Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the > noble ones is > totally unbound right within himself. > > "Furthermore, it happens to a well-instructed disciple of the > noble ones > that something that is subject to illness grows ill...that > something subject > to death dies...that something subject to ending ends...that > something > subject to destruction is destroyed. With the destruction of > what is subject > to destruction, he reflects: 'It doesn't happen only to me > that what is > subject to destruction will be destroyed. To the extent that > there are > beings -- past & future, passing away & re-arising -- it > happens to all of > them that what is subject to destruction will be destroyed. > And if, with the > destruction of what is subject to destruction, I were to > sorrow, grieve, > lament, beat my breast, & become distraught, food would not > agree with me, > my body would become unattractive, my affairs would go > untended, my enemies > would be gratified and my friends unhappy.' So, with the > destruction of what > is subject to destruction, he does not sorrow, grieve, or > lament, does not > beat his breast or become distraught. This is called a > well-instructed > disciple of the noble ones who has pulled out the poisoned > arrow of sorrow > pierced with which the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person > torments himself. > Sorrowless, arrowless, the disciple of the noble ones is > totally unbound > right within himself. > > "These are the five things, great king, that cannot be gotten > by a > contemplative, a priest, a deva, a Mara, a Brahma, or anyone > at all in the > world." > > Not by sorrowing, > not by lamenting, > is any aim accomplished here, > not even a bit. > Knowing you're sorrowing & in pain, > your enemies are gratified. > But when a sage > with a sense for determining what is his aim > doesn't waver in the face of misfortune, > his enemies are pained, > seeing his face unchanged, as of old. > Where & however an aim is accomplished > through eulogies, chants, good sayings, > donations, & family customs, > follow them diligently there & that way. > But if you discern that your own aim > or that of others > is not gained in this way, > acquiesce [to the nature of things] > unsorrowing, with the thought: > 'What important work am I doing now?' > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > May this find you and our community here well. > > Maha Metta and Much Love, > > Bhante D. > > 3923 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:48pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Dear bhante Thank you very much for your help and the sharpness in the choice. I already sent it to my friends; they are not budhhists but they are sincere seekers and open minded people, therefore they will benefit from the sutta and feel comforted. I am grateful for your promptness and compassion. Metta Cybele >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" >Reply->>Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:17:05 +0530 > >Dear Rob, > >Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also >recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > >I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work >of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can >be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain >insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha >and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be >transformed into skillful means! > 3924 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:49pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Venerable sir, Thank you for the apposite passage. If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really appreciate any information on this, Thank you in advance, Amara > The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the condition of > the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one who has > reached the Goal: > > "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" > (Case: Annihilationism) > Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" > (Case: Eternalism) > Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, > for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" > > The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: > > Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, > There is not that by which he could be named; > When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, > are all the ways of telling, too! 3925 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:32pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Exactly! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Kirkpatrick" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > Dear Venerable, > Thank you, an excellent choice. Somehow it is so comforting and > sobering to know that death is inevitable. We don't need to be > buddhist to benefit from such a sutta. > metta > rob > --- "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" wrote: 3926 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) My goodness, Cybele, please do not thank me. It is a Gift of Dhamma. Truly, I am thankful to be able to assist anyone I can according to my capacity. Btw, do you use ICQ? I think we should be on one another's lists by now. I have you on my list here. And for everyone else, my ICQ number is 8863950. I also use MS Mess ;-) and Yahoo Instant Mess ;-) and the ID is: dhammapiyo. Anyone is welcome to contact if I can be of service. Metta cittena, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "cybele chiodi" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > > Dear bhante > > Thank you very much for your help and the sharpness in the choice. > I already sent it to my friends; they are not budhhists but they are sincere > seekers and open minded people, therefore they will benefit from the sutta > and feel comforted. > I am grateful for your promptness and compassion. > > Metta > Cybele > > > >From: "Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo" > >Reply-> >> >Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) > >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:17:05 +0530 > > > >Dear Rob, > > > >Access to Insight has the Sutta I have posted below, and I would also > >recommend Ajahn Chah's: Our Real Home > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html > > > >I like the late Venerable's simplicity and honesty. I have found this work > >of his to be especially good at helping the dying and the bereaved. It can > >be read and reflected upon and he person helping the bereaved will gain > >insight, clarity, and wisdom to be in depth and in touch with this dukkha > >and the reality of the other dukkha concerning grief and how it can be > >transformed into skillful means! > > 3927 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:36pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup]Compassion Hi, Sarah - > Howard, I'm glad you can appreciate this article and > thankyou for quoting from it. > > (1) The reason that the emphasis is on rt > understanding and not on concentration, calm and rt > effort is because at a moment of rt understanding, > these other cetasikas (mental factors) arise > automatically with it. Any moment of kusala > (wholesomeness) is calm already, calm from akusala for > a moment. Concentration (ekaggata) is a universal > cetasika which applies with every citta (moment of > consciousness). Only be developing understanding will > rt concentration be developed. Similarly, effort > (samma vayama) can be kusala (wholesome) or akusala > (unwholesome), so again rt understanding is the key to > know the difference. > > (2) You mention about the 'techniques of practice' for > cultivation of calm and insight. Perhaps the question > should be: Can there be a technique of practice? Both > kinds of bhavana (mental development) depend on right > understanding of their respective objects. Can > understanding at this moment of a reality or an object > of samatha be called a technique I wonder? > > look forward to your comments as always.... > ================================ I agree, most strongly, with the *crucial* role of right understanding, both in guiding one's practice as well as in its salutary effect on the various other path factors. However, I believe there is some danger in putting emphasis on it to the extent that one falls into what I consider to be the error of treating intellectual study as the whole of the path. It is possible, I believe, especially for "intellectual personality types" (such as myself) to find it easy and pleasant to treat intellectual study as the entire path, so that one ends up practicing a "noble one-fold path" instead of the Buddha's Noble Eightfold Path. If one examines the sutta pitaka, it is readily seen that the Buddha put enormous emphasis on *all* aspects of the path (even including, especially in the Majhima Nikaya, mastering the jhanas). The degree of concentration and calm arising from right understanding *alone* is much less than that arising out of meditative practice combined with right understanding. Now, on the other hand, there are some Western "insight meditation" practitioners who fall into an opposite error, by thinking that meditation alone is the whole of the path. *Some* of these people will pay only lip service to sila, will dismiss right understanding at a preliminary mere-intellectual stage as unneccesary, and will give short shrift to the right effort of guarding the senses. This is, of course, a one-sided and somewhat blind attempt at practice. From my perspective, the Buddha knew what he was doing when he presented the entire, eight-factor path. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3928 From: Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:58pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Amara, I am based on Earth like all of us! LOL! For us ordained folks, the Earth is the floor and the Sky is the roof! ;-) Yes, I have been to Lumbini several times. I will not mince words. Lumbini is a mess. We need to get the support of the Buddhists of the world to restore and sustain this wonderful place of the Blessed One's birth. Excavation is, I think, at a standstill. What excavation was done has been fruitful. Artifacts were found and catalogued. I need to check on the status of the specifics you have asked. The Ashoka pillar is viewable but surely could use more protection. I will try to find out more details. I am remiss about something, too, here. I should not hold back this information but I have been so swamped and wanted to be a bit more formal but this is a good opportunity to share. I thank you for your kindness and concern about Nepal, and Lumbini. I am trying to help to build the first Buddhist hospital (Theravada Sasana/Sangha) here. Help is greatly needed. The hospital is to be called "Tri-Ratna Hospital". It will be located in the Kathmandu Valley on the outskirts of Lalitpur (Patan). The need is just incredible. The hospital project is licensed by His Majesty's Government here in the Kingdom of Nepal. The work is involved, slow, but good! The Dhamma prevails! This project belongs to every Buddhist on Earth. My vision is that it not only help and be a model for Nepal, but for the rest of Asia and the world. There are other projects needing help, too. I started a foundation for these purposes. We have been so hard at work but there is so much to be done. The foundation is the Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. and everyone is welcome to visit the web site at: http://www.buddhadharma.org/ I think you will find our mission statement unequivocal and clear. (We opted to use "Dharma" as opposed to "Dhamma" in "Buddhadharma", as this was more colloquial --- easier for folks in other parts of the world. Inside the site, we use both forms.) The Foundation is entirely non-profit, charitable, and functions thanks to volunteers. It is doubly incorporated in the US (two states) and is US Tax Exempt as required by law there. I would like to see the Foundation open in as many countries as possible. If anyone is interested in working for the Sasana, please let me know. We have just redesigned the web site. I would ask that people please visit and tell your friends. Again, many of you are very skilled and I would like to increase the Teachings on the site. There is linking, and all kind of work to be done. I am already doing more than I can honestly handle --- and I am not at all complaining, but help is needed. May this find all of us well and blessed. Metta, Bhante D. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara" Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:19 PM Subject: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > > Venerable sir, > > Thank you for the apposite passage. > > If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must > have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could > tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya > statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock > at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I > may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be > visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago > they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said > there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really > appreciate any information on this, > > Thank you in advance, > > Amara > > > The story of the Sage Upasiva goes that he once asked about the > condition of > > the one attaining Nirvana, that is to express: the condition of one > who has > > reached the Goal: > > > > "Does he not exist? --- the one who has reached the Goal?" > > (Case: Annihilationism) > > Or does he dwell in the Goal forever free from ill?" > > (Case: Eternalism) > > Oh, Sage! Please do well declare this unto me, > > for certainly this dharma is completely known to you!" > > > > The Blessed One, the Buddha replied to him: > > > > Of him who has reached the Goal no measure is to be found, > > There is not that by which he could be named; > > When dharmas all for him have been destroyed, > > are all the ways of telling, too! > 3929 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Howard, I have to retract my statement about reading the book by harvey. I think it was another book with a similar title possibly by scholar called culpit (not sure of the name maybe 'self and selfless' - I remember reading it over 8 years ago so it can't have been the one you mention). I will order your book since you rate it so highly. rob --- Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear howard, > > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, > Personality, > > Consciousness, > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > > Harvey. The ISBN > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a > *superb* > > text, in my > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using > Pali, > > not Sanskrit, > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the > most > > prized books I > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > enthousiasm. > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years > back > I can't remember much. rob 3930 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:55pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Ciaoooo!!! Cybele Click here: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha Check this accesstoinsight.org site about Buddhist Woman at the Time of the Buddha. Three writings about grief and bereavement : 1)What Cannot Be Got: The Buddha's Words to King Pasenadi on Queen Mallika's Death. 2) Kisagotami: The Mother With The Dead Child. I like this one with the wisdom of Buddha doing psychotherapy. 3) Patacara: Preserver of the Vinaya. Patacara lost her husband, 2 sons, both of her parents and brothers within a same day. Quite touching story. Ciao.....hasta luego.. Num 3931 From: Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:08pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Hi, Robert - Thank you for this reply. You make several points that I consider to be weighty. In a message dated 3/13/01 4:00:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, you write: > Dear howard, > > --- wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > > > > > > 5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an intermediate > > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > > reborn. > > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > > > =============================== > > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, permit > > me to draw your > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, Personality, > > Consciousness, > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by Peter > > Harvey. The ISBN > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a *superb* > > text, in my > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using Pali, > > not Sanskrit, > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the most > > prized books I > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > enthousiasm. > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years back > I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many people > these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own > ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: This is true. He supports his claims by quotations from the Pali suttas. That doesn't bother me, inasmuch as the sutta pitaka is likely to be the Buddha word, whereas the commentaries are not. The question is, as I see it, whether his quoting is fairly representative or not. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > > to p.108 , > > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". He > > gives a fair > > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him to > > conclude that the > > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > > conclusion is > > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to be of > > interest. Is > > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea that > > there is a > > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed to > > simply being > > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? > > Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. Which > realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, let > alone the commentaries. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is a telling point, in my opinion. But what it invalidates, as I see it, is not the idea of an intermediate state between birth realms, however, but, rather, my own personal theory (mentioned next) that an intermediate state is indistinguishable from a short lifetime in some realm. Indeed, an alleged intermediate state does not match any of the six realms. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > > distinguish, in a > > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the one > > hand, and a > > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is the > > following: Person > > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn in a > > state that > > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she then > > dies from that > > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > > call the second of > > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it an > > intermediate > > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A lifetime > > which is short > > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > > that is far less > > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > > issue may be moot, > > a mere verbal distinction. > > This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, was > reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This is > not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn as a > flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva realm > also. Again no intermediate realm. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. My "theory" is invalid. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Howard, > Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: > Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics > Vibha"nga > The Book of Analysis > Dhaatukathaa > Discourse on Elements > Puggalapa~n~natti > A Designation of Human Types > Kathaavatthu > Points of Controversy > Yamaka > No PTS translation yet available > Tikapa.t.thaana > Conditional Relations > Dukapa.t.thaana > No PTS translation yet available ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I do not. All that I *do* have, as a poor substitute, is A Manual of Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga, and the Vimuttimagga. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of intermediate > beings as wrong view. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. And maybe it *is* wrong view. But is that borne out in the suttas as well? Whether one believes that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha word or not, the Kathavatthu portion is definitely not. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It is > not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. The > works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I like > ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - she > does not specualate about this and that- but still her writings > are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I cannot but agree! ---------------------------------------------------------------- > robert =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 3932 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:11pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Num and Cybele: against the flow 2? Dear Rob >Dear Cybele and Num, >Me again. You are always welcome! :-) >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > >> > > I am much more homeless than helpless! :-))) > > > > I am not aplying that much 'will' to induce conditions; I > > am just > > >flowing > > > > with the stream and it's the right attitude for me now. > > > > > > > Here I copied the sutta, only what regards the first two > > individuals as the > > last two could not apply to me. > >Nice to see your honesty too Cybele. So easy to overestimate our >progress because we do not see really see dhammas as they are. >Your realistic estimation is itself real kusala and supports >further investigation and insight. Well Rob, no point in investigating reality and our mental processes if afterwards we resort to self denial and ignore or remove what is going on inside us. A waste of time and energy. I am far too much lost in deception to deliberately induce more than what I cannot already avoid. I would say that's just common sense. I am practical in my spiritual research. > > > > As certainly I do not live a 'holy life that is perfect and > > pure' I suppose > > I am to be identified in the first type of individuals - the > > passionate > > ones, even if I would not describe my deeds as evil - but the > > crucial point > > is I don't intend to deny my nature honestly as I am not > > simply indulging in > > it but nevertheless I acknowledge what I am and do not use any > > forceful > > means of self restraining or going against the flow. This is > > not conditions > > arising but imposing conditions: CONTROL. > > I have got the experience that is totally an unuseful effort. > > Makes you feel > > inadequate to the practice and an utter failure and you don't > > improve as a > > matter of fact. > > And suppression doesn't lead to wisdom at all in my humble > > knowledge. > > I have past accumulations and my character and tendencies and > > I can work out > > my 'buddha's nature' only respecting my actual, present > > nature; otherwise in > > my viewpoint I would be in self deceit. > >yes suppression is not the way. It is useful to consider this >sutta also with our understanding of Abhidhamma. In fact as Num >pointed out there is no individual, there is only a stream of >ever changing namas and rupas. Nothing is the same for an >instance. We can still talk about character though because >different types of conditions become powerful and habitual. Of >course as you well know if we take these for self or permanent >though we are not understanding deeply. I realize that I am already not the same person that started writing this mail Rob; my mental as my physical conditions are transforming and alternating in my consciouness as in my body very fast and I perceive emotions, feelings arising and flowing away and the image of a stream is very pertinent to describe the phenomena. But somehow we get deceived by the 'intensity' and fluidity of the mental/emotional/physical process that makes it appear so solid, 'consistent'. However even considering the ephemeral nature of life and that we are transforming and evolving and we are compounded of ever changing namas and rupas and must observe attentively and investigate to don't get fooled, we have in viewpoint to acknowledge as well that we are a fruition of our kamma and we cannot just oppose resistance to our past accumulations or take them for granted as something that you can easily overcome like that, with determination and mental training. Personally I cannot agree with it as my knowledge stem from experience and my experience teaches me that I have a long way to become 'detached'. I don't think that is casual that you are born in a particular place in your present life; there is a meaning for this and a 'conditioning' in the enviroment where you are raised up. Then when I say I am a hotblooded Latin woman, well I am joking with the stereotype but I am serious at the same time because I cannot deny 'roots' kammic as social as religious as ethical as familiar as geographical, whatever: we carry over a cromossomic memory, as a kammic imprinting and you cannot erase this with 'power of will' but getting more and more deep insights in your nature to 'uproot' all this mental/emotional habits and past accumulations. I want to see you cold blooded anglosaxon in the middle of a bunch of stunning mulattas... if you manage to keep cool. Therefore I dislike bullshiting myself that I am not what indded I am. Self or non self. But at the same time I care to don't entrap myself in the stereotype, creating a label to justify what I am. >We might live a hard life, one with tears and sorrow, but still >develop much understanding of nama and rupa - which is the same >as understanding anatta- ie. satipatthana. Of course the moments >of dosa(aversion) at the time when we cry - for instance- are >not satipatthana. However there can be many moments of >understanding insighting the dosa and other objects while this >is happening. Thus even while we are crying there is a growing >awareness and insight into anattaness. This can truly be done. >Another person might live a happy life, calm and content. Very >equanimous, a serious meditator and yet not be developing even >an iota of real satipatthana. One thinks one can control sati >and make it arise or thinks samadhi is sati. That's the insight I have got in this troubled period of mine; I have been feeling quite depressed and not able to concentrate and sit in meditation but I gave up expectations of how I was supposed to 'behave' in order to achieve mindfulness and 'defeat' my mental confusion and calm down my pain. I just was amazed to observe sometimes how in such weird, unconventional situations I could be able to understand and even in my sorrow and restlessness remain somehow still and mindful. And cultivate awareness in 'aberrant conditions' so to speak. Pain is a very abrasive sensation and I reckon that even if hurts (and it hurts!!!!)is actually capable of polishing, of sharpening awareness. And I am not playing the role of the brave buddhist, could not care less. Then I cry out in pain but deep inside me I do not regret. There are no aberrant conditions for awareness as there are not special ones to induce it, it can arises everywhere, any moment. therefore all this 'control' is pointless for me. > > > And Num sincerely I am so fed up of 'serious', circumspect > > buddhists that > > take themselves in such high consideration that they cannot > > even be humorous > > of our absurd, ignorant, impermanent and delusional nature. > > They really believe it and take themselves seriously. > > Well I don't. I laugh about myself as about life and my > > fellows > > human beings. > > And I cry as well and I hurt and I bleed and everything just > > happens > > and passes away if I can be still enough to observe and let it > > be. > > I suppose we are too much in a hurry to become wise without > > realizing that wisdom and compassion are a long, many lives > > lasting > > process of inner evolution. > >Great stuff cybele. it helps us all to consider these points. I really feel it Rob; I have been 'invited', forcefully to self mutilate my nature and beaten me up to fits this 'buddha image' that is so tight for me. I feel oppressed and I am not putting up with this anymore sincerely. Enough is enough. I am not giving up to my hedonistic nature but neither 'getting crazy' and depreciating myself because I am not 'holy and pure'. It reminds me very much of the meaning of 'sin' in catholic religion. I think many converted buddhists do not realise that they have the conditioning of their religious background and assume that just having theoretical knowledge and aspiration will change their nature, I find it delusional. > > I accept what I am and don't try to fool myself or others with > > a > > knowledge that I don't have - a 'buddhist spiritual persona' > > to feel > > much more reassured and less ignorant. > >yes we are not trying to become Buddhists or calm or wise or >anything. The path leads away from all that worthless crap. That's what motivates me to practice, otherwise is meaningless insisting. All this delirant wanting to be something, somebody else is craving and clinging to another fake identity and we are entrapping ourselves more and more. It is not very appealing to me, lobha doesn't arises. :-) > > > > Exchanging the idea of self to clinging to an spiritual self - > > but self is > > always there. I am much more prone to the freedom of non > > escape. > > I am drifting away in this samsara and I don't try to grasp on > > fake > > securities as religion or good buddhist spiritual identity. > > > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are in the > > same boat > > without trying to row against the stream. > > But only seeking for understanding in order to desentangle our > > mind of > > illusions. > > Imperfection is the full package in our human nature!!! Take > > it or leave it > > but we cannot fight out against our past accumulations and > > 'control' our > > nature with suppression. >. > > > > The flow will take me exactly where I am supposed to arrive > > with my > > knowledge dear Num. > >Yes. Why does it have to be this way? because it has to be this >way.(as they say in thailand) >rob This is good Rob. wow you are an irreverent buddhist, so disgraceful!!! ;-)))) And if it has to be this way, we must cope and accept the rules of the this dhamma game. Cybele 3933 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:17pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Bhante Wonderful, a bhikkhu that is not aloof; I can hardly believe! Forgive my irreverence Bhante, you know I don't mean offense. I most appreciate your Dhamma gifts. I use yahoo messenger and I will certainly contact you now that I know your ID. Thank you for the virtual hospitality! Metta Cybele > >My goodness, Cybele, please do not thank me. It is a Gift of Dhamma. Truly, >I am thankful to be able to assist anyone I can according to my capacity. > >Btw, do you use ICQ? I think we should be on one another's lists by now. I >have you on my list here. > >And for everyone else, my ICQ number is 8863950. I also use MS Mess ;-) and >Yahoo Instant Mess ;-) and the ID is: dhammapiyo. > >Anyone is welcome to contact if I can be of service. > >Metta cittena, > >Bhante D. > 3934 From: cybele chiodi Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:34pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] suttas about death (to comfort) Ciaoooo Num!!! Thank you, gracias, grazie mille, merci, obrigado, very kind of you. My friends, a couple are crossing rivers of pain. The brother of the girl is dead suddenly at 32 years old and her mother is distraught and the guy's father is dying in the hospital and his sisters are panicking by now. They are pretty balanced themselves but the heavy emotional pressure comes from the family. I am grateful for all the clues and one of my favourites is also "the mother with the dead child"; I was just searching for that one, it will be so important for her mother. thanks Ciao, hastaluego, ate'logo, bye Baci Cybele >>Ciaoooo!!! Cybele > >Click >here: Buddhist Women at the Time of The Buddha > >Check this accesstoinsight.org site about Buddhist Woman at the Time of the >Buddha. Three writings about grief and bereavement : 1)What Cannot Be >Got: >The Buddha's Words to King Pasenadi on Queen Mallika's Death. 2) >Kisagotami: >The Mother With The Dead Child. I like this one with the wisdom of Buddha >doing psychotherapy. 3) Patacara: Preserver of the Vinaya. Patacara lost >her husband, 2 sons, both of her parents and brothers within a same day. >Quite touching story. > >Ciao.....hasta luego.. > >Num > > > 3935 From: Amara Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:35pm Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings > Yes, I have been to Lumbini several times. > > I will not mince words. Lumbini is a mess. We need to get the support of the > Buddhists of the world to restore and sustain this wonderful place of the > Blessed One's birth. > > Excavation is, I think, at a standstill. What excavation was done has been > fruitful. Artifacts were found and catalogued. I need to check on the status > of the specifics you have asked. > > The Ashoka pillar is viewable but surely could use more protection. > > I will try to find out more details. Venerable sir, Thank you very much for the information, I am very interested in the excavation as I heard that the temple has been built over layers of I think seven other temples of varying shapes and sizes at that very place, and always with the stand of the statue of Maha Maya at the same spot throughout. And at the very bottom layer there is the rock, and what makes it very special is that it is apparently not any type of indigenous rock that could be found within that area, in fact within a great radius from Lumbini. Someone mentioned also that in the writings (at the base of the column?) in which King Asoka described something like a stone wall, the texts could be interpreted as the rock there as well, or something to that effect. I wonder what language would have been used in Asoka's time? (Jim, would you happen to know?) I would love to see the excavated site, I wonder if that were open to the public, and most of all to see the rock, if at all possible! I know it is all lobha, sir, curiosity, but then I have accumulated so much of that! I would really appreciate it if you could tell us more about the excavations later. > I am remiss about something, too, here. I should not hold back this > information but I have been so swamped and wanted to be a bit more formal > but this is a good opportunity to share. I thank you for your kindness and > concern about Nepal, and Lumbini. I really appreciate your taking the time from your great projects to share with us, sir, anumodana in your kusala cetana. Please don't feel you have to be formal with us, I was just brought up to respect all sankha as if they were arahanta, as they are the continuation of the line of the Buddha's desciples, and I can't help being overly polite, at that thought. Anumodana also with your kusala cetana to help people, as well as helping them find the right teachings, the greatest of all dana! I hope you succeed in all your generous kusala endeavors, and am impressed with their range and scope, Thank you again for everything and anumodana, Amara > I am trying to help to build the first Buddhist hospital (Theravada > Sasana/Sangha) here. Help is greatly needed. The hospital is to be called > "Tri-Ratna Hospital". It will be located in the Kathmandu Valley on the > outskirts of Lalitpur (Patan). The need is just incredible. The hospital > project is licensed by His Majesty's Government here in the Kingdom of > Nepal. The work is involved, slow, but good! The Dhamma prevails! > > This project belongs to every Buddhist on Earth. My vision is that it not > only help and be a model for Nepal, but for the rest of Asia and the world. > > There are other projects needing help, too. > > I started a foundation for these purposes. We have been so hard at work but > there is so much to be done. > > The foundation is the Buddhadharma International Foundation, Inc. and > everyone is welcome to visit the web site at: http://www.buddhadharma.org/ > > I think you will find our mission statement unequivocal and clear. > > (We opted to use "Dharma" as opposed to "Dhamma" in "Buddhadharma", as this > was more colloquial --- easier for folks in other parts of the world. Inside > the site, we use both forms.) > > The Foundation is entirely non-profit, charitable, and functions thanks to > volunteers. It is doubly incorporated in the US (two states) and is US Tax > Exempt as required by law there. > > I would like to see the Foundation open in as many countries as possible. > > If anyone is interested in working for the Sasana, please let me know. > > We have just redesigned the web site. I would ask that people please visit > and tell your friends. Again, many of you are very skilled and I would like > to increase the Teachings on the site. There is linking, and all kind of > work to be done. I am already doing more than I can honestly handle --- and > I am not at all complaining, but help is needed. > > May this find all of us well and blessed. > > Metta, > > Bhante D. > > Venerable sir, > > > > Thank you for the apposite passage. > > > > If I remember correctly you said you were based in Nepal? You must > > have visited Lumbini, have you been there recently? Perhaps you could > > tell us if the excavation under the small temple with the Maha Maya > > statue, by the pond and the Ashoka column, is finished? Is the rock > > at the lowest level underneath the statue visible to the public? I > > may be joining the pilgrimage to India later this year and we will be > > visiting Lumbini as well. When I was last there over ten years ago > > they hadn't begun the excavations and since then friends have said > > there were diggings sponsored by the Japanese. I would really > > appreciate any information on this, > > > > Thank you in advance, > > > > Amara > > 3936 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:46pm Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear Howard, I think our mails might have crossed. I just wrote that I now think I haven't read the book you mention. The title was similar to another I read (still trying to remember the name). Anyway so it seems we are pretty much in agreement. I'll just comment below. --- wrote: > Hi, Robert - >Thank you for this reply. You make several points that > I consider to > be weighty. > > > > Dear howard, - wrote: > > > Hi, Robert - > > >5. An example: Some tibetan texts talk about an > intermediate > > > > being who after death exists for 49 days before being > > > reborn. > > > > This is in direct contradiction to the Dhamma. > > > > > > > =============================== > > > Perhaps. Perhaps not. For another perspective, > permit > > > me to draw your > > > attention to a wonderful book, The Selfless Mind, > Personality, > > > Consciousness, > > > and Nirvana in Early Buddhism, Curzon Press, 1995, by > Peter > > > Harvey. The ISBN > > > for the paperback version is 0 7007 0338 1. This is a > *superb* > > > text, in my > > > opinion, written from the Theravadin perspective, using > Pali, > > > not Sanskrit, > > > and paying much attention to Abhidhamma. It is one of the > most > > > prized books I > > > own, and I recommend it to all Buddhists with tremendous > > > enthousiasm. > > > > > > > I did read peter harveys book but it was several years > back > > I can't remember much. I do remember that, like so many > people > > these days, he interpreted suttas and so on to suit his own > > ideas. He seemed not to follow the ancient commentaries. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > This is true. He supports his claims by quotations from > the Pali > suttas. That doesn't bother me, inasmuch as the sutta pitaka > is likely to be > the Buddha word, whereas the commentaries are not. The > question is, as I see > it, whether his quoting is fairly representative or not. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, he could be selective in his quoting. One of the real advantages of relying more on the ancient commentaries is that they draw on the entire Tipitaka. It is so easy to read our own ideas into the suttas. That is why the atthasalini warns that those who study sutta only may develop wrongview because many suttas talk about beings and things (and it is not always made explicit in the sutta itself that these are simply concepts used for convenience of expression). > > > > > I bring up this book in this context because from p.98 > > > to p.108 , > > > Harvey examines the question of "intermediate existence". > He > > > gives a fair > > > number of references from the sutta pitaka that lead him > to > > > conclude that the > > > early suttas did accept a between-lives state. Whether his > > > conclusion is > > > certain or not, I think that you may at least find it to > be of > > > interest. Is > > > it absolutely clear, from your perspective, that the idea > that > > > there is a > > > between-lives state is contrary to the Dhamma as opposed > to > > > simply being > > > contrary to certain Theravadin commentaries? > > > > Look at the canon where they explain the different realms. > Which > > realm is this intermediate realm- it is not in the canon, > let > > alone the commentaries. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is a telling point, in my opinion. But what it > invalidates, as I > see it, is not the idea of an intermediate state between birth > realms, > however, but, rather, my own personal theory (mentioned next) > that an > intermediate state is indistinguishable from a short lifetime > in some realm. > Indeed, an alleged intermediate state does not match any of > the six realms. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, one other point occurs to me: How does one > > > distinguish, in a > > > hard and fast way, between an "intermediate state", on the > one > > > hand, and a > > > short-lived realm of rebirth, on the other? My point is > the > > > following: Person > > > A dies from the human state; he/she is immediately reborn > in a > > > state that > > > lasts for a brief while, say up to seven weeks; he/she > then > > > dies from that > > > state, and is immediately reborn in yet another. Some will > > > call the second of > > > these three a realm of existence, but others will call it > an > > > intermediate > > > state. Now, as has been asked, "What's in a name?". A > lifetime > > > which is short > > > can still be a lifetime. Certain insects live for a period > > > that is far less > > > than seven weeks, for example. From this standpoint, this > > > issue may be moot, > > > a mere verbal distinction. > > > > This can happen. There were those who, like queen Mallika, > was > > reborn in hell for seven days and then in a deva realm. This > is > > not an intermedaite state. There was a monk who was reborn > as a > > flea and who that same day died and was reborn in a deva > realm > > also. Again no intermediate realm. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I agree. My "theory" is invalid. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > Howard, > > Do you have a copy of the Abhidhamma-pitaka?: > > Dhammasa"nga~n.l trns. Buddhist Psychological Ethics > > Vibha"nga > > The Book of Analysis > > Dhaatukathaa > > Discourse on Elements > > Puggalapa~n~natti > > A Designation of Human Types > > Kathaavatthu > > Points of Controversy > > Yamaka > > No PTS translation yet available > > Tikapa.t.thaana > > Conditional Relations > > Dukapa.t.thaana > > No PTS translation yet available > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, I do not. All that I *do* have, as a poor > substitute, is A Manual > of Abhidhamma, the Visuddhimagga, and the Vimuttimagga. > ---------------------------------------------------------------Well that is a damn good start. You probably know that the monks in sri lanka used to begin their study with the Abhidhammatthasangaha (manual of abhidhamma). > > > > > > The Kathaavatthu specifically mentions this idea of > intermediate > > beings as wrong view. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Okay. And maybe it *is* wrong view. But is that borne > out in the > suttas as well? Whether one believes that the Abhidhamma is > the Buddha word > or not, the Kathavatthu portion is definitely not. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- The kathavatthu is included in the Abhidhamma and is part of the Tipitaka. I recently wrote about this. Although not all of it is the buddha's word the matika (right word?), the abbreviated version is. Of course I can't prove that it is valid or even that the rest of Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word. Nor can I prove that any of the suttas are. But then I think proving is not the name of the game. The idea is to see clearer and that is, I am sure you agree, where judicious study of Abhidhamma and the rest of the Tipitaka leads. It should also be stressed that, as I am wont to belabor to caution myself, we can become excessively caught up in study. The Abhidhamma should not be seen as an academic subject. Much of it can be tested in daily life: there is seeing now- can't stop it if the eyes are open and attention arises- and then always immediately concepts coming in about what was seen (this is even before any thinking in words). It is happening right now to all of us and is through and through anatta - uncontrollable. This anattaness is the sole taste of the Abhidhamma. > > > I would recommend studying the Abhidhamma very carefully. It > is > > not easy to read but one cannot help but be impressed by it. > The > > works of other writers do not so much hold my attention. I > like > > ninas writing because she carefully follows the Tipitaka - > she > > does not specualate about this and that- but still her > writings > > are only an introduction. It is good to go to the source. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I cannot but agree! > ---------------------------------------------------------------- A worthwhile discussion howard. metta robert 3937 From: cybele chiodi Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:23am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Welcome back Dear Sarah >>Dear Cybele, > >--- cybele chiodi wrote: > > > > Indeed that's why I subscribed here, because we are > > in the same boat > > without trying to row against the stream. > > But only seeking for understanding in order to > > desentangle our mind of > > illusions. > > Imperfection is the full package in our human > > nature!!! Take it or leave it > > but we cannot fight out against our past > > accumulations and 'control' our > > nature with suppression. > > Unless we prefer exchanging one deception for > > another and never wake > > up from this dream. > >Good points, cybele...so right....understanding and >accepting rather than controlling and suppressing..and >as you say, we're all in the same boat (and in the >same mess) together! Glad to have you for company when >the waves get choppy! > >Sarah > >P.S. You and Num could even start up an Italian >discussion group and study dhamma in Italian! Dear Sarah, when the waves get choppy you can rely that I will be there right close to you and to everybody who needs my support. Compassion and loving kindness are my favourite factors to enlightement, they perfectly suits my affectionate nature; as bhante would put they are 'palatable' to me. No merits, no effort, its' just my nature, unholy but caring. I stand up by my dhamma friends. :-))) And some of them (very dear to me, oh my goodness attachment, attachment! ;-)))) often stand by me, they are precious dhamma gifts and the most valuable help in the path apart dhamma itself. Glad to have your company too. Let's help each other tidying up this mess whether in Italian or English, the language of Dhamma will deepen the communication between us. Love and respect Cybele 3938 From: Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 0:31am Subject: Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the > goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us believe > that "we" are right, that is its function. And fortunately for us there are still ariyan sangha in this world who are able to dispel wrong views, who are able to rightly discern authentic Dharma from adharma. That said, in conclusively evaluating any system for authenticity I see the need for at least two things. 1) Right View and discernment that investigates its object dispassionately and 2) having received teachings from qualified proponents of the view under examination--to prevent misunderstandings from adultering the analysis. If the first is lacking, then it impossible that one has the capacity to conclusively judge if a system teaches Right View, since there are many legitimate ways of presenting Right View, and there are many subtle wrong views invisible to those who have not yet eradicated sakkayaditthi. Without Right View, the only remaining option is using discrimination to determine if the path accords with our own present sensibilities and understanding of the Dharma. To think anything more than this is to engage in speculation, and if one maintains one's own view is right and all other views are wrong, in sectarianism as well. Even if the first item is lacking, I still feel it possible to arrive at a correct, though provisional, understanding through careful analysis and investigation. I have found that Buddhagosa has collected some interesting strategies for cleaving Dharma from adharma (Vis. XX for example). > I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of > tibetan thought that we were unaware of. I am not as interested in subtlety for its own sake, but rather, since some have implied otherwise, in establishing whether or not the Tibetan Dharma teaches Right View. To me, this is the essential question to answer. Everything else depends on it. That is why I am trying to understand what objections there are to the Tibetan presentation of Right View, specifically. As I've said, I don't see even a hair of contradiction between the Pali and the Tibetan interpretations. Quite the opposite, in fact. The more I study the clearer it is to me they're both in perfect accord with each other, and the more I study the more both serve to confirm each other. That, to me, is one mark of authentic Dharma. This is why I am especially curious to understand why others do not share this perspective. No matter what, I can hardly imagine a more productive exercise than investigating (using Canonical citations of you prefer) the characteristics of Right View and wrong view. > I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but it > is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn according > to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a sotapanna > will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I right > in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is enlightened > and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we > theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. I do consider this a relatively superficial distinction, because different systems slice things differently according to the inclinations of their disciples. For example, the Abhidharmakosa slices the ariyan path in a slightly different way from the Pali based on the nature of the Bodhisattva ariyan disciples' capacities. That aside, I recall there being debates in the Tipitika on the "seven births" idea, and I recall seeing (I know for sure in the 'kosa but I also believe Buddhagosa mentioned this in the Vis.) that some have said it is actually seven rounds of four rebirths (totaling 28). So even this is point open to some debate as far as I know (which means it isn't profitable for me to take too literally). Also, consider the heuristic of the Bodhisattva path, which emphasizes cultivation of the Paramitas which serve the purpose of both eradicating kilesas (in the0sense of terminating the samyojanas by lokuttara panna that realizes Nibbana) and removing the "obstacles to omniscience" that facilitate the abhinnas associated with a Tathagata. As for the Thus-faring of a Tathagata, I have to ask a question. If there is Right View it implies there is direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma, Nibbana. This begs the question. Is it possible for anyone with Right View to misunderstand Nibbana or any aspect of the Dhamma? The way I see it, if this is so, then the entire Dharma collapses, because it would mean that ariyan Sangha are not a true source of refuge, because they do not all teach a path that leads to the end of the kilesas. Again, this is why I feel it's useful to address the Right View question first. It's the most easy to cross- check, in my opinion, because there are scads of sources in both systems dealing with it--lists, enumerations, meditations, and commentaries. > Everyone is convinced > they have the true path. Incidently out of all these, the ones > who shine above the others in appearance, morality and general > demeanor are- as far as I can tell - the mormons. Funny you mention Mormons. I was raised Mormon (and expelled from a Mormon college--twice--for being such a bad-boy :)), and I can say that outward appearances of this sort mean diddly, as I'm sure you agree. I had the karma to percieve a whole lot of akusala in that environment. > Anyway I take it that you have now rejected this aspect of > tibetan teaching? I have not rejected any aspect of the Tibetan teachings, just as I have not rejected any aspect of the Tipitika. Since I detect no contradictions between them what would I reject? What I have been able to verify so far in both systems is that they both teach Right View with regard to karma, the nature of dhammas, anicca, dukkha, nirodha, magga, and magga-phala, and that both systems teach practices which lead directly to the permanent eradication of the defilements through lokuttara wisdom. > Indeed I do not find it impossible that the Buddha took seven > steps. I haven't thought about it much but since you mention it: > > Someone who has accumulated parami for uncountable number of > aeons, someone who could distingiush nama from rupa by his own > efforts and then give all the details so well that even we can > get a glimpse. Why should such a trivial thing as taking a few > steps be impossible. I grew up on farms and at lambing time we > used to help the sheep give birth. Those fragile lambs were up > and running instantly. Why not a future Buddha? To me the question of whether the historical Siddhartha Gotama took seven steps on leaving his mother's womb is of far less importance than the message these stories are trying to convey. I have no idea whether this technically happened, but again, it doesn't really matter to me. The way I see it is this teaching exists in the Canon because it's been found to be useful for someone, somewhere (though certainly not for me). That is good enough for me, even though I see nothing profitable in taking such a thing literally myself. I look forward to more on this from you! It's hard to find knowledgable people who have so much of value to share, and I greatly appreciate the opportunity youve given me here to reflect on the meaning of Right View. 3939 From: Robert Kirkpatrick Date: Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:11am Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: The Dalai Lama & Tibetan teachings Dear eric, I think you are going to be a great addition to the group. A sincere Tibetan scholar. I really mean that. I like your perspective on trying to find the heart of the teaching and forgetting about the rest. I was originally interested in zen and I had this same approach. You are taking it to a degree that is really unusual - and showing a careful interest in the Dhamma. It is good indeed. BTW I will be in thailand in late july and will be meeting sujin if you are going? Now a few points: --- wrote: > Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > Yes. but we have to be so open here. Anything looks like the > > goal to wrongview. When there is wrongview it makes us > believe > > that "we" are right, that is its function. > > And fortunately for us there are still ariyan sangha in this > world > who are able to dispel wrong views, who are able to rightly > discern > authentic Dharma from adharma. How can we be sure who is ariyan and who simply thinks they are? tem teaches Right View, since > there are > many legitimate ways of presenting Right View, and there are > many > subtle wrong views invisible to those who have not yet > eradicated > sakkayaditthi. Without Right View, the only remaining option > is using > discrimination to determine if the path accords with our own > present > sensibilities and understanding of the Dharma. Well there are other ways too. I agree that discrimination - in the sense of repeated consideration is absolutely vital. Also though we can learn about the dhammas that are arising right now. There should be a gradual eroding of wrong view - it doesn't all come at once just as we turn ariya. For instance sometimes it can feel like one is simply a puppet, really no-self, who has control over anything. Also there is more understanding of the difference between concept and paramattha dhamma - as it is happening. But not yet is there clear insight into nama and rupa. To think > anything more > than this is to engage in speculation, and if one maintains > one's own > view is right and all other views are wrong, in sectarianism > as well. > > Even if the first item is lacking, I still feel it possible to > arrive > at a correct, though provisional, understanding through > careful > analysis and investigation. I have found that Buddhagosa has > collected some interesting strategies for cleaving Dharma from > > adharma (Vis. XX for example). You know you are my friend already. Buddhaghosa is one I revere. > > I have a feeling you will show us some of the subtlties of > > tibetan thought that we were unaware of. > > I am not as interested in subtlety for its own sake, but > rather, > since some have implied otherwise, in establishing whether or > not the > Tibetan Dharma teaches Right View. To me, this is the > essential > question to answer. Everything else depends on it. > > That is why I am trying to understand what objections there > are to > the Tibetan presentation of Right View, specifically. As I've > said, I > don't see even a hair of contradiction between the Pali and > the > Tibetan interpretations. Quite the opposite, in fact. The more > I > study the clearer it is to me they're both in perfect accord > with > each other, and the more I study the more both serve to > confirm each > other. That, to me, is one mark of authentic Dharma. This is > why I am > especially curious to understand why others do not share this > perspective. No matter what, I can hardly imagine a more > productive > exercise than investigating (using Canonical citations of you > prefer) > the characteristics of Right View and wrong view. To tell you the truth you have almost convinced me that at least tibeten teaching is closer than I had thought. > > > I don't know if you call this a superficial distinction but > it > > is entirely impossible that a buddha could be reborn > according > > to theravada. Also nor can arahats be reborn. And a > sotapanna > > will reach parinibbana after 7 births at most. Thus am I > right > > in thinking that you do not think the Dalai lama is > enlightened > > and is thus a putthujana? This may be a confusion that we > > theravadanas have about tibetan beliefs. > > I do consider this a relatively superficial distinction, > because > different syste